Black generally tip less.
- Thread starter pittpizza
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Yeah, I don't mind it either if it's a place that's closer to fast food like Steak and Shake etc. Same with Chipotle etc.
I don't like it when it's quality food that you still have to wait a good while to be ready etc.
But like I said, I just like the experience being served. If I'm going to sit down and eat, I'd prefer to be waited on. Otherwise I usually just grab carryout from places like Chipotle rather than dining in as if there's no service I'd rather eat in the comfort of home or somewhere outside if it's nice etc. Or bring it back to my desk at work and work through lunch.
I don't like it when it's quality food that you still have to wait a good while to be ready etc.
But like I said, I just like the experience being served. If I'm going to sit down and eat, I'd prefer to be waited on. Otherwise I usually just grab carryout from places like Chipotle rather than dining in as if there's no service I'd rather eat in the comfort of home or somewhere outside if it's nice etc. Or bring it back to my desk at work and work through lunch.
cindersphere
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What if you get takeout from a restaurant, should one still tip?
benjamouth
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[quote name='cindersphere']What if you get takeout from a restaurant, should one still tip?[/QUOTE]
I usually do, but I don't really think you need to.
I usually do, but I don't really think you need to.
[quote name='cindersphere']What if you get takeout from a restaurant, should one still tip?[/QUOTE]
No, it's not required in that case as you're not being served.
You're just being cooked for and having your food handed to you by the host/cashier/bartender (who ever you order from in that place) and all those folks make minimum wage or more (other than the bartender maybe--where I worked they made a bit more than minimum wage plus tips they got themselves--not a lot as the bar area was tiny, they mainly made drinks for servers to pick up--and servers were required to tip out 10% to the bar, so it was the most sought position in the restaurant).
I usually through a couple bucks in the tip jar if they have one as I like chipping in a bit to help out people making a lot less money than me as I was in their shoes in the past, but you're not obligated to tip when getting carryout.
No, it's not required in that case as you're not being served.
You're just being cooked for and having your food handed to you by the host/cashier/bartender (who ever you order from in that place) and all those folks make minimum wage or more (other than the bartender maybe--where I worked they made a bit more than minimum wage plus tips they got themselves--not a lot as the bar area was tiny, they mainly made drinks for servers to pick up--and servers were required to tip out 10% to the bar, so it was the most sought position in the restaurant).
I usually through a couple bucks in the tip jar if they have one as I like chipping in a bit to help out people making a lot less money than me as I was in their shoes in the past, but you're not obligated to tip when getting carryout.
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This is probably true, statistically. The statistics aren't racist, but the way you view them may be.
Saying "black people" tip less is oversimplifying it. Socioeconomic factors play a bigger role in a person's tipping habits than their skin color.
The relation of skin color and a person's socioeconomic background is an unfortunate pattern that is the true root of any "racist" discussion.
ps. Out of all of my various races of friends, the worst tipper is white (German heritage). The best tipper black, and also happens to be gay ... which brings up an interesting notion that homosexuals are better tippers than heterosexuals.
Saying "black people" tip less is oversimplifying it. Socioeconomic factors play a bigger role in a person's tipping habits than their skin color.
The relation of skin color and a person's socioeconomic background is an unfortunate pattern that is the true root of any "racist" discussion.
ps. Out of all of my various races of friends, the worst tipper is white (German heritage). The best tipper black, and also happens to be gay ... which brings up an interesting notion that homosexuals are better tippers than heterosexuals.
Pitti I think the D.L. Hughley joke cements my idea quite effectively. Those who aren't racist wouldn't get on the defensive so much so. "How many Black friends do you have?" A dozen, two, I don't know. It's the uncertainty of that answer that says someone's not racist. They're not paying attention and trying so hard to get the number.
As for NPR I'm referring to NPR in general. I think the way they didn't back Tavis up when he had a show on there speaks volumes for them. They just DIDN'T advertise for him. I never heard one ad on my local NPR for his show, period. Granted they didn't air it but that says a lot since they never had a Black host on exclusively until lately. The fact it didn't occur to them that some people might want to hear him.
I tell you, ask any Black person on the street if they listen to NPR and 90% will probably say no. It's deliberately directed to sound off to what White Middle Class people want to hear.
They don't even consider any other demographic in my opinion. Oh sure, they may make what they think is an effort but they're so caught up on themselves and their community they don't know how to speak to ANYONE else.
As for NPR I'm referring to NPR in general. I think the way they didn't back Tavis up when he had a show on there speaks volumes for them. They just DIDN'T advertise for him. I never heard one ad on my local NPR for his show, period. Granted they didn't air it but that says a lot since they never had a Black host on exclusively until lately. The fact it didn't occur to them that some people might want to hear him.
I tell you, ask any Black person on the street if they listen to NPR and 90% will probably say no. It's deliberately directed to sound off to what White Middle Class people want to hear.
They don't even consider any other demographic in my opinion. Oh sure, they may make what they think is an effort but they're so caught up on themselves and their community they don't know how to speak to ANYONE else.
[quote name='Clak']Tipping isn't done in Japan either I believe, I don't know how that effects service there, different culture and all.[/QUOTE]
The services in Japan is superior than anything you will get in the USA. If you try to give them a tip they would refuse. Of course the downside is everything is more expensive.
Other East Asia countries (China, Taiwan, Korea) don't expect tips either (although some places do charge a 10% service fee). They are usually extremely polite and very nice. Definitely better than the services I get in USA
The services in Japan is superior than anything you will get in the USA. If you try to give them a tip they would refuse. Of course the downside is everything is more expensive.
Other East Asia countries (China, Taiwan, Korea) don't expect tips either (although some places do charge a 10% service fee). They are usually extremely polite and very nice. Definitely better than the services I get in USA
[quote name='Sarang01']Pitti I think the D.L. Hughley joke cements my idea quite effectively. Those who aren't racist wouldn't get on the defensive so much so. "How many Black friends do you have?" A dozen, two, I don't know. It's the uncertainty of that answer that says someone's not racist. They're not paying attention and trying so hard to get the number.
As for NPR I'm referring to NPR in general. I think the way they didn't back Tavis up when he had a show on there speaks volumes for them. They just DIDN'T advertise for him. I never heard one ad on my local NPR for his show, period. Granted they didn't air it but that says a lot since they never had a Black host on exclusively until lately. The fact it didn't occur to them that some people might want to hear him.
I tell you, ask any Black person on the street if they listen to NPR and 90% will probably say no. It's deliberately directed to sound off to what White Middle Class people want to hear.
They don't even consider any other demographic in my opinion. Oh sure, they may make what they think is an effort but they're so caught up on themselves and their community they don't know how to speak to ANYONE else.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that's racism so much as almost race-narcissism. It's not that they don't like blacks or have anything bad to say, they just don't care about them because it's not who they are. It's not bad per se, it just comes off as arrogant.
As for NPR I'm referring to NPR in general. I think the way they didn't back Tavis up when he had a show on there speaks volumes for them. They just DIDN'T advertise for him. I never heard one ad on my local NPR for his show, period. Granted they didn't air it but that says a lot since they never had a Black host on exclusively until lately. The fact it didn't occur to them that some people might want to hear him.
I tell you, ask any Black person on the street if they listen to NPR and 90% will probably say no. It's deliberately directed to sound off to what White Middle Class people want to hear.
They don't even consider any other demographic in my opinion. Oh sure, they may make what they think is an effort but they're so caught up on themselves and their community they don't know how to speak to ANYONE else.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that's racism so much as almost race-narcissism. It's not that they don't like blacks or have anything bad to say, they just don't care about them because it's not who they are. It's not bad per se, it just comes off as arrogant.
I have/had friends that work/worked in the food industry. It is the worse job sector to be part of (unless you own the place). Pay is minimum wage, you work during everyone's time off (ie Thurs-Sat night), and people shit on you just because.
I always tip. $3 for every $20 spent on the check. Even if the serviced sucked, I'll still tip. Though I will complain to the manager about the service (usually they will lower the check if you do). Drinks are an automatic $1 tip per drink, $2 if the drink is well mixed. Sure their job doesn't require a degree, but to be on your feet for 5-6 hours constantly moving with very little time to yourself is still a tough job.
As for black people tipping less? If the statistic is true, then it isn't racist.
I always tip. $3 for every $20 spent on the check. Even if the serviced sucked, I'll still tip. Though I will complain to the manager about the service (usually they will lower the check if you do). Drinks are an automatic $1 tip per drink, $2 if the drink is well mixed. Sure their job doesn't require a degree, but to be on your feet for 5-6 hours constantly moving with very little time to yourself is still a tough job.
As for black people tipping less? If the statistic is true, then it isn't racist.
[quote name='drktrpr1']Your comparison to the Best Buy employee is bad, too. When was the last time you saw a Best Buy employee go out of their way to really help a customer? NEVER. BB employees are paid by the hour without commission, so (at least the one's I've met) they usually don't give a damn.[/QUOTE]
Maybe if you tipped your sales clerk they'd be more likely to go out of their way for you in the future?
[quote name='mykevermin'][...threats...][/QUOTE]
Am I the only one who finds it interesting how tipping is viewed differently here?
There are those of us who lean right who think of tipping as something extra. You don't tip/get tipped? Oh well, life goes on.
Then, there are those who lean left and think of tipping as something that is *owed*. "That guy's eating here, so he has money. I don't. He owes it to me or I'm going to spit in his food."
It's just like politics. Those on the right think "I've earned this money, it's mine to choose how I wish to use it." whereas those on the left think "Oh, they have money I want, therefore I am entitled to it or else..."
And, AGAIN and AGAIN - Wait staff gets paid minimum wage per federal law. I don't know how to be any more clear about this. Where's that thread about people ignoring the facts when the facts don't suit their needs?
Maybe if you tipped your sales clerk they'd be more likely to go out of their way for you in the future?
[quote name='mykevermin'][...threats...][/QUOTE]
Am I the only one who finds it interesting how tipping is viewed differently here?
There are those of us who lean right who think of tipping as something extra. You don't tip/get tipped? Oh well, life goes on.
Then, there are those who lean left and think of tipping as something that is *owed*. "That guy's eating here, so he has money. I don't. He owes it to me or I'm going to spit in his food."
It's just like politics. Those on the right think "I've earned this money, it's mine to choose how I wish to use it." whereas those on the left think "Oh, they have money I want, therefore I am entitled to it or else..."
And, AGAIN and AGAIN - Wait staff gets paid minimum wage per federal law. I don't know how to be any more clear about this. Where's that thread about people ignoring the facts when the facts don't suit their needs?
pittpizza
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UB, because I'm good, and have personality, and know a lot about food and wine, and work at a high-end seafood restaurant, I make about 15-20 per hour.
I get paid from my employer 2.35 an hour. the other 13-17 bucks an hour comes from tips. Maybe you don't understand the distinction that people are pointing out about your "PAY" coming from tips and your "HOURLY WAGE" coming only from your employer.
The whole reason my WAGE is only 2.35 is because in our culture, when you go out for a fine dining experience, and the service is good, there is a cultural understanding and expectation that you should tip 15-20%.
It is sort of like opening a door for a woman or letting her get off an elevator first, or taking turns merging. There is no punishment if you don't participate; it's just sort of a social more.
It has literally nothing to do with politics. It has nothing to do with the redistribution of wealth.
Life does go on if I get stiffed, it just sucks since the bulk of my PAY (NOT WAGE) comes from tips. I never once had the thought "Oh they have money so I'm entitled to it." For me personally, it's safe to assume I have as much as or more than a lot of my tables. But I also have 3 jobs, sort of.
Also Dmaul keeps making the point that he WANTS his servers' pay to be made up almost entirely of tips. Think of it as a commission. The harder you work, the more you make. If they're paid strictly a wage, and tipping isn't expected it's just a rare bonus, then you are going to get best buy/retail type CS.
I get paid from my employer 2.35 an hour. the other 13-17 bucks an hour comes from tips. Maybe you don't understand the distinction that people are pointing out about your "PAY" coming from tips and your "HOURLY WAGE" coming only from your employer.
The whole reason my WAGE is only 2.35 is because in our culture, when you go out for a fine dining experience, and the service is good, there is a cultural understanding and expectation that you should tip 15-20%.
It is sort of like opening a door for a woman or letting her get off an elevator first, or taking turns merging. There is no punishment if you don't participate; it's just sort of a social more.
It has literally nothing to do with politics. It has nothing to do with the redistribution of wealth.
Life does go on if I get stiffed, it just sucks since the bulk of my PAY (NOT WAGE) comes from tips. I never once had the thought "Oh they have money so I'm entitled to it." For me personally, it's safe to assume I have as much as or more than a lot of my tables. But I also have 3 jobs, sort of.
Also Dmaul keeps making the point that he WANTS his servers' pay to be made up almost entirely of tips. Think of it as a commission. The harder you work, the more you make. If they're paid strictly a wage, and tipping isn't expected it's just a rare bonus, then you are going to get best buy/retail type CS.
[quote name='pittpizza']I get paid from my employer 2.35 an hour. the other 13-17 bucks an hour comes from tips. Maybe you don't understand the distinction that people are pointing out about your "PAY" coming from tips and your "HOURLY WAGE" coming only from your employer.[/quote]
Oh, I understand - but everyone keeps saying "without tips, servers don't make minimum wage" - when, legally, they do (again, if they don't, then the business is breaking the law which is a whole different issue).
Without tips, you make minimum wage. With tips, you have the chance to increase your earnings - which is all fine and dandy. No issue there. But there should be no *expectation* to tip. If it's an expectation, then add it into the price and call it a day. The entire concept of a tip or gratuity is that it is a present. There should never be any expectations that you will receive presents from people.
You say that, but how many times has the "You better tip or they're gonna **** up your food" line been mentioned so far in this thread?
This makes it sound like more reason to tip the sales clerks. Everyone *****es about how bad customer service is now-a-days... maybe if our "culture" would make the effort to reward the sales clerks the same way we reward our wait staff, perhaps customer service would improve.
Oh, I understand - but everyone keeps saying "without tips, servers don't make minimum wage" - when, legally, they do (again, if they don't, then the business is breaking the law which is a whole different issue).
Without tips, you make minimum wage. With tips, you have the chance to increase your earnings - which is all fine and dandy. No issue there. But there should be no *expectation* to tip. If it's an expectation, then add it into the price and call it a day. The entire concept of a tip or gratuity is that it is a present. There should never be any expectations that you will receive presents from people.
You say that, but how many times has the "You better tip or they're gonna **** up your food" line been mentioned so far in this thread?
This makes it sound like more reason to tip the sales clerks. Everyone *****es about how bad customer service is now-a-days... maybe if our "culture" would make the effort to reward the sales clerks the same way we reward our wait staff, perhaps customer service would improve.
Trancendental
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[quote name='UncleBob']Oh, I understand - but everyone keeps saying "without tips, servers don't make minimum wage" - when, legally, they do (again, if they don't, then the business is breaking the law which is a whole different issue).
Without tips, you make minimum wage. With tips, you have the chance to increase your earnings - which is all fine and dandy. No issue there. But there should be no *expectation* to tip. If it's an expectation, then add it into the price and call it a day. The entire concept of a tip or gratuity is that it is a present. There should never be any expectations that you will receive presents from people.
You say that, but how many times has the "You better tip or they're gonna **** up your food" line been mentioned so far in this thread?
This makes it sound like more reason to tip the sales clerks. Everyone *****es about how bad customer service is now-a-days... maybe if our "culture" would make the effort to reward the sales clerks the same way we reward our wait staff, perhaps customer service would improve.[/QUOTE]
You're a very literal person. If you were smart, I'd say you have some form of asperger's. Definately a mental issue of some sort.
Without tips, you make minimum wage. With tips, you have the chance to increase your earnings - which is all fine and dandy. No issue there. But there should be no *expectation* to tip. If it's an expectation, then add it into the price and call it a day. The entire concept of a tip or gratuity is that it is a present. There should never be any expectations that you will receive presents from people.
You say that, but how many times has the "You better tip or they're gonna **** up your food" line been mentioned so far in this thread?
This makes it sound like more reason to tip the sales clerks. Everyone *****es about how bad customer service is now-a-days... maybe if our "culture" would make the effort to reward the sales clerks the same way we reward our wait staff, perhaps customer service would improve.[/QUOTE]
You're a very literal person. If you were smart, I'd say you have some form of asperger's. Definately a mental issue of some sort.
mykevermin
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[quote name='UncleBob']Am I the only one who finds it interesting how tipping is viewed differently here?[/quote]
It's political. Yeah, that's the ticket.
As for a threat, it's not a threat. Not from me. I don't work in food service any longer. Haven't in seven years. I'm just telling you a fact of life - servers who work in restaurants where gratuity is expected as a part of service (i.e., any restaurant with table service) will be the ones who act. Not me. If you want to be willfully oblivious to the way the world works, be my guest. It's your stomach.
Not owed, expected. It's part of the norms associated with dining out. We know it's a part of the norms of dining out because of (1) exemptions of minimum wage laws to commission employees and (2) the fact that servers are taxed on their tips (often indirectly as a portion of their shift sales). To not tip is to ignore norms and take advantage of the situation by failing to fulfill part of the obligation (yes, obligation) to provide gratuity for service.
You should be in love with the idea, as it's meritocracy in its purest form. Good service should be rewarded more than poor service. A flat wage for servers doesn't reward people who do their job well. In fact, there's a particular delight in the fact that, having been presented with such a microcosm of laissez-faire capitalism, you find yourself derelict in your duties to participate appropriately. Instead, you exploit the circumstances to your financial advantage, and leave servers destitute as a response. For a free market thinking person, you fail to live by your ideals - and instead, serve as a reflection of the most heinous realities of free market capitalism in practice.
If you don't like to tip, you can eat at a lot of places. Fast food joints don't expect tips. Settle yourself up to the trough at a "Golden Corral" and you won't have to tip - full disclosure, buffet style places always confused me in that they had "servers," who did little more than bring you a beverage and bus your tables. But I digress.
A server is a person whose interaction, promptness, politeness, and overall quality of service are their skills. You provide gratuity based on that. To fail to do so is to exploit the worker, to deprive them of part of the implicit contract of their employment. You are a free rider in an economic system that, if nobody tipped, would be altered drastically. If everybody was like you and nobody tipped, nobody would wait tables. Business owners would have to pay minimum wage salaries (or higher, given the kind of money servers are accustomed to making). That expenditure increase would ultimately be reflected in the cost of the food you purchase. You would then pay a flat rate, the same as anyone else who ordered what you did, for the service you received.
You benefit not because you don't tip, but because you don't tip and other people do. If everyone followed your method, things would change to reflect the fact that $2.35 an hour and no tips is a violation of the law. And you'd pay more in the end. So, again, you're a free rider, benefiting from everyone else's good graces of actually providing a tip.
Now, as long as we're down at the UncleBob "let's get batshit crazy and roll around in the illogical mud" house of dipshittery, you've established that you don't want to pay for the service you get. You'd rather see a scenario where wages are flattened and come from the employer, and that servers aren't motivated to give you good service for the money they expect to receive. You want to take away the dangling carrot, the financial incentive for hard work. You believe, then, that all customers should provide equal financial input for equal output.
So then you should support a single payer universal coverage health care system, yes?
You have zero interest in participating in a system of financial incentives for workers to try to be exceptional workers. So then, you're a socialist. Yes? Right? Yes?
Like I said, as long as we're getting batshit crazy, let's go hogwild.
You don't understand the law particularly well.
It's political. Yeah, that's the ticket.
As for a threat, it's not a threat. Not from me. I don't work in food service any longer. Haven't in seven years. I'm just telling you a fact of life - servers who work in restaurants where gratuity is expected as a part of service (i.e., any restaurant with table service) will be the ones who act. Not me. If you want to be willfully oblivious to the way the world works, be my guest. It's your stomach.
Not owed, expected. It's part of the norms associated with dining out. We know it's a part of the norms of dining out because of (1) exemptions of minimum wage laws to commission employees and (2) the fact that servers are taxed on their tips (often indirectly as a portion of their shift sales). To not tip is to ignore norms and take advantage of the situation by failing to fulfill part of the obligation (yes, obligation) to provide gratuity for service.
You should be in love with the idea, as it's meritocracy in its purest form. Good service should be rewarded more than poor service. A flat wage for servers doesn't reward people who do their job well. In fact, there's a particular delight in the fact that, having been presented with such a microcosm of laissez-faire capitalism, you find yourself derelict in your duties to participate appropriately. Instead, you exploit the circumstances to your financial advantage, and leave servers destitute as a response. For a free market thinking person, you fail to live by your ideals - and instead, serve as a reflection of the most heinous realities of free market capitalism in practice.
If you don't like to tip, you can eat at a lot of places. Fast food joints don't expect tips. Settle yourself up to the trough at a "Golden Corral" and you won't have to tip - full disclosure, buffet style places always confused me in that they had "servers," who did little more than bring you a beverage and bus your tables. But I digress.
A server is a person whose interaction, promptness, politeness, and overall quality of service are their skills. You provide gratuity based on that. To fail to do so is to exploit the worker, to deprive them of part of the implicit contract of their employment. You are a free rider in an economic system that, if nobody tipped, would be altered drastically. If everybody was like you and nobody tipped, nobody would wait tables. Business owners would have to pay minimum wage salaries (or higher, given the kind of money servers are accustomed to making). That expenditure increase would ultimately be reflected in the cost of the food you purchase. You would then pay a flat rate, the same as anyone else who ordered what you did, for the service you received.
You benefit not because you don't tip, but because you don't tip and other people do. If everyone followed your method, things would change to reflect the fact that $2.35 an hour and no tips is a violation of the law. And you'd pay more in the end. So, again, you're a free rider, benefiting from everyone else's good graces of actually providing a tip.
Now, as long as we're down at the UncleBob "let's get batshit crazy and roll around in the illogical mud" house of dipshittery, you've established that you don't want to pay for the service you get. You'd rather see a scenario where wages are flattened and come from the employer, and that servers aren't motivated to give you good service for the money they expect to receive. You want to take away the dangling carrot, the financial incentive for hard work. You believe, then, that all customers should provide equal financial input for equal output.
So then you should support a single payer universal coverage health care system, yes?
You have zero interest in participating in a system of financial incentives for workers to try to be exceptional workers. So then, you're a socialist. Yes? Right? Yes?
Like I said, as long as we're getting batshit crazy, let's go hogwild.
You don't understand the law particularly well.
[quote name='mykevermin']You don't understand the law particularly well.[/QUOTE]
Before I address anything else in your rambling post that's full of inaccuracies and conjecture, Myke - please do tell... How does the federal law regarding Tip Wage work in that I have it wrong?
I'm interested in knowing, as my wife's in-law's business (which she manages and does the bookkeeping for) has servers that are paid at Tip Wage and if there's some way for them to lower their payroll, I'm sure they'd be glad to hear it. So, do share your knowledge with us all, please.
Before I address anything else in your rambling post that's full of inaccuracies and conjecture, Myke - please do tell... How does the federal law regarding Tip Wage work in that I have it wrong?
I'm interested in knowing, as my wife's in-law's business (which she manages and does the bookkeeping for) has servers that are paid at Tip Wage and if there's some way for them to lower their payroll, I'm sure they'd be glad to hear it. So, do share your knowledge with us all, please.
crystalklear64
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It's a well known and documented fact that if you tip you are a moron. Therefore, black people, as a whole, are smarter than other races.
mykevermin
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http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.pdf
Tehcnically (technically, technically, technically) you are correct. But you're trollin' like a mofo if you actually think businesses are actually going to be audited to ensure compliance. *Particularly* when there's no way to prove or disprove that gratuity helps raise the standard above the minimum wage.
BTW, camoor's totally right about asperger's.
Tehcnically (technically, technically, technically) you are correct. But you're trollin' like a mofo if you actually think businesses are actually going to be audited to ensure compliance. *Particularly* when there's no way to prove or disprove that gratuity helps raise the standard above the minimum wage.
BTW, camoor's totally right about asperger's.
Okay - so now that we've established that with regards to the law (and as for businesses that don't - that's a whole different issue than if tipping should be required/expected/etc.), we've cleared up then entire "servers make less than minimum wage" BS
As for your other points - "Let me be clear" - I do tip. Pretty well, at that. When the service (and service alone) is good. I've been known to hang out at the Pizza Hut and drink sodas/play games with friends and have a bill under $2 and leave a $5 tip (250% good enough for you?). I took my wife out to a somewhat local smaller chain of sit-down restaurants about a year ago that was closing (very sad for us). Left that server (who was crazy-nice for someone losing her job in less than a week - I do hope she had something else lined up) a $20 tip on a $40 bill. I've never said anything about me personally not tipping anywhere in this (or any other) thread.
Now, go back to your earlier post. Take out the uninformed comment regarding the law that, apparently, you don't know how works. Take out all the snarky comments about me not tipping, as I do (and could probably dig up a few receipts and scan them in, if you'd like). Take all of that out and rewrite your post into something with substance.
As for your other points - "Let me be clear" - I do tip. Pretty well, at that. When the service (and service alone) is good. I've been known to hang out at the Pizza Hut and drink sodas/play games with friends and have a bill under $2 and leave a $5 tip (250% good enough for you?). I took my wife out to a somewhat local smaller chain of sit-down restaurants about a year ago that was closing (very sad for us). Left that server (who was crazy-nice for someone losing her job in less than a week - I do hope she had something else lined up) a $20 tip on a $40 bill. I've never said anything about me personally not tipping anywhere in this (or any other) thread.
Now, go back to your earlier post. Take out the uninformed comment regarding the law that, apparently, you don't know how works. Take out all the snarky comments about me not tipping, as I do (and could probably dig up a few receipts and scan them in, if you'd like). Take all of that out and rewrite your post into something with substance.
No business is going to be audited unless there's reason for them to be. I'd venture to guess that almost all employees also don't track tips well enough either to ever be able to dispute it. Still, that means they'd get minimum wage if they tried. It's just usually more of a hassle than it's worth and honestly, it's something that's hard to ever encounter unless you only work dead shifts or the restaurant is on the way out.
"We pay you poop in exchange for the possibility of a big payday" is not a new philosophy. The restaurant industry just took it beyond any regular commission job in an effort to make more money since the overhead is borderline killer and because it's an industry where there is massive amounts of competition. The only problem is that the majority of restaurant food is severly overpriced, requires an added tip, and most of the time isn't worth the effort.
"We pay you poop in exchange for the possibility of a big payday" is not a new philosophy. The restaurant industry just took it beyond any regular commission job in an effort to make more money since the overhead is borderline killer and because it's an industry where there is massive amounts of competition. The only problem is that the majority of restaurant food is severly overpriced, requires an added tip, and most of the time isn't worth the effort.
mykevermin
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the law as writ is not the law as practiced. sorry to burst your bubble.
like the FHAA, like EEOA.
A: "Excuse me, I'm from the department of labor, and I understand that your servers make under minimum wage after accounting for their tips."
B: "How the
did you figure that out. Prove it."
A: "..."
B: "Get the out of my business."
fin.
Now, the burden is actually on you to show that the law you continually cite is the law as is enforced. In all of your literalism, you continually overlook that the way we go about living out lives rarely coincides neatly with the laws on the books. So find me a business that has been hit by the Dept of Labor for doing so. Show me that the law is practiced as it is written.
like the FHAA, like EEOA.
A: "Excuse me, I'm from the department of labor, and I understand that your servers make under minimum wage after accounting for their tips."
B: "How the
did you figure that out. Prove it."A: "..."
B: "Get the
out of my business."fin.
Now, the burden is actually on you to show that the law you continually cite is the law as is enforced. In all of your literalism, you continually overlook that the way we go about living out lives rarely coincides neatly with the laws on the books. So find me a business that has been hit by the Dept of Labor for doing so. Show me that the law is practiced as it is written.
Feeding the Abscess
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[quote name='camoor']You're a very literal person. If you were smart, I'd say you have some form of asperger's. Definately a mental issue of some sort.[/QUOTE]
*definitely
ASPERGER RAGE
*definitely
ASPERGER RAGE
mykevermin
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Civil suits based on class action due to organized interests, eh?
I like it.
I like it.
pittpizza
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They should unionize.
What do you think unclebob?? They should unionize and all get the same pay, despite the fact that some work harder than others.
Everyone shares equally no matter how good or bad the service is.
This is what you're suggesting and jives well with your political philosophies doesn't it??
[quote name='mykevermin'] A flat wage for servers doesn't reward people who do their job well. In fact, there's a particular delight in the fact that, having been presented with such a microcosm of laissez-faire capitalism, you find yourself derelict in your duties to participate appropriately. Instead, you exploit the circumstances to your financial advantage, and leave servers destitute as a response. For a free market thinking person, you fail to live by your ideals - and instead, serve as a reflection of the most heinous realities of free market capitalism in practice.[/QUOTE] Emphasis Added.
BRAVO!! Nicely said.
What do you think unclebob?? They should unionize and all get the same pay, despite the fact that some work harder than others.
Everyone shares equally no matter how good or bad the service is.
This is what you're suggesting and jives well with your political philosophies doesn't it??
[quote name='mykevermin'] A flat wage for servers doesn't reward people who do their job well. In fact, there's a particular delight in the fact that, having been presented with such a microcosm of laissez-faire capitalism, you find yourself derelict in your duties to participate appropriately. Instead, you exploit the circumstances to your financial advantage, and leave servers destitute as a response. For a free market thinking person, you fail to live by your ideals - and instead, serve as a reflection of the most heinous realities of free market capitalism in practice.[/QUOTE] Emphasis Added.
BRAVO!! Nicely said.
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='mykevermin']
You should be in love with the idea, as it's meritocracy in its purest form. Good service should be rewarded more than poor service. A flat wage for servers doesn't reward people who do their job well. [/QUOTE]
That's why I don't get the objections to the tipping system we have. It fits the idea of meritocracy that's so engrained in the American dream.
Even that aside, it's again away of holding servers directly accountable to you and thus improving the odds of you getting good service as I've said before in the thread.
Do away with tips and what you'll have is menu prices go up to about what you pay now with current prices plus 15-20% in tips, and see service dip in quality as they now no longer have any incentive to do anything beyond the bare minimum to keep their job. Just like service sucks in retail stores for that reason--employees have no reason to go the extra mile as they don't care about raises and promotions as most are there for a short term only, same as wait staff.
The no-tipping system may work fine in Japan and other places in Asia as culture is just very different there in the western world. A lot more focused on taking pride in doing your best etc. In the western world we're more hedonistic and focused on maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain. Hence my idea of why I find service to suck in Eurpope compared to the US.
Most people only bust ass at work if there's immediate reward in doing so. And it doesn't get more immediate than getting cash tips that are better if you go the extra mile than if you do the bare minimum.
Permanent careers reward hard work through promotion, raises etc. But those just don't apply on a large scale in the service industry (be it restaurants or retail etc.) as the majority of employees take the jobs as just a short-term, part time job and don't care about giving it their all to advance in the company as it's just a temporary paycheck and not a career.
You should be in love with the idea, as it's meritocracy in its purest form. Good service should be rewarded more than poor service. A flat wage for servers doesn't reward people who do their job well. [/QUOTE]
That's why I don't get the objections to the tipping system we have. It fits the idea of meritocracy that's so engrained in the American dream.
Even that aside, it's again away of holding servers directly accountable to you and thus improving the odds of you getting good service as I've said before in the thread.
Do away with tips and what you'll have is menu prices go up to about what you pay now with current prices plus 15-20% in tips, and see service dip in quality as they now no longer have any incentive to do anything beyond the bare minimum to keep their job. Just like service sucks in retail stores for that reason--employees have no reason to go the extra mile as they don't care about raises and promotions as most are there for a short term only, same as wait staff.
The no-tipping system may work fine in Japan and other places in Asia as culture is just very different there in the western world. A lot more focused on taking pride in doing your best etc. In the western world we're more hedonistic and focused on maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain. Hence my idea of why I find service to suck in Eurpope compared to the US.
Most people only bust ass at work if there's immediate reward in doing so. And it doesn't get more immediate than getting cash tips that are better if you go the extra mile than if you do the bare minimum.
Permanent careers reward hard work through promotion, raises etc. But those just don't apply on a large scale in the service industry (be it restaurants or retail etc.) as the majority of employees take the jobs as just a short-term, part time job and don't care about giving it their all to advance in the company as it's just a temporary paycheck and not a career.
SgtMurder
Banned
[quote name='Clak']Man it must be hard to live in bob's world. Libs around every corner trying to take his hard earned money, trying to force him into government run health care, shit is scary, son.[/QUOTE]
You can add my name to that list, I only tip $1 and the highest I've ever done is $5, but the service has to be flawless.
You can add my name to that list, I only tip $1 and the highest I've ever done is $5, but the service has to be flawless.
[quote name='dmaul1114']Even that aside, it's again away of holding servers directly accountable to you and thus improving the odds of you getting good service as I've said before in the thread.[/QUOTE]
Sounds good - now explain to me why all these same principles don't apply to any other individual working in the customer service sector.
[quote name='mykevermin']the law as writ is not the law as practiced. sorry to burst your bubble.[/QUOTE]
lol at the post directly after your post.
So, question - if you eat an apple picked by an illegal Mexican worker who gets paid $2 for a 12 hour shift, is it up to *you* to directly pay the worker the difference in pay between what he's legally owed and what he made? Do you have some kind of obligation to make up the difference when an employer stiffs the employees? Where do you draw the line?
As far as the entire argument about paying servers based on performance - I'm all for it. But unless it's clearly stated on the menu ("We expect servers to be tipped at 15%" - in which case, it isn't really a tip) or such, then it should *never* be expected, nor should it be an obligation. The wait staff doesn't work for you - they work for the business. The business should be expected to pay a fair wage that the two parties agree on. The two parties can review this wage, based on either party's performance, at any time. If I want to provide a tip or gratuity based on the individual transaction, that should be my choice - not anyone's expectation.
Sounds good - now explain to me why all these same principles don't apply to any other individual working in the customer service sector.
[quote name='mykevermin']the law as writ is not the law as practiced. sorry to burst your bubble.[/QUOTE]
lol at the post directly after your post.
So, question - if you eat an apple picked by an illegal Mexican worker who gets paid $2 for a 12 hour shift, is it up to *you* to directly pay the worker the difference in pay between what he's legally owed and what he made? Do you have some kind of obligation to make up the difference when an employer stiffs the employees? Where do you draw the line?
As far as the entire argument about paying servers based on performance - I'm all for it. But unless it's clearly stated on the menu ("We expect servers to be tipped at 15%" - in which case, it isn't really a tip) or such, then it should *never* be expected, nor should it be an obligation. The wait staff doesn't work for you - they work for the business. The business should be expected to pay a fair wage that the two parties agree on. The two parties can review this wage, based on either party's performance, at any time. If I want to provide a tip or gratuity based on the individual transaction, that should be my choice - not anyone's expectation.
[quote name='Clak']Man it must be hard to live in bob's world. Libs around every corner trying to take his hard earned money, trying to force him into government run health care, shit is scary, son.[/QUOTE]
+1
dopa is pretty right wing and he basically said anyone who doesn't tip is an ass.
+1
dopa is pretty right wing and he basically said anyone who doesn't tip is an ass.
[quote name='UncleBob']Sounds good - now explain to me why all these same principles don't apply to any other individual working in the customer service sector.
[/QUOTE]
Just not the societal norms for whatever reason.
I'd happily switch to a tipping system for retail service employees personally as it would have to improve service. As it is now it's terrible and I do very little retail shopping beyond the grocery store for food, pharmacy for medicine, Target for toiletries, pet food etc., and the occasional trip to Macy's or another department store for clothing. Everything else I just order online and don't bother checking to see if it's cheaper locally.
But in reality, it's just not practical to have tipping for things like cashiers and bag boys and floor service staff. You have a very brief interaction with them, vs. being served over an hour or so at a restaurant. So it's harder to gauge performance etc. They're working more for the store than for customers. Where as servers are the other way around.
Though I will say an odd area where tipping applies is with valets. Not much interaction there, you give them your car and get a ticket. Come back and give them the ticket and they bring you your car. Not sure why that needs to be a tip based industry vs just a salaried job as there's not much employee/customer interaction or expectation of service beyond being polite and not dinging up your car.
[/QUOTE]
Just not the societal norms for whatever reason.
I'd happily switch to a tipping system for retail service employees personally as it would have to improve service. As it is now it's terrible and I do very little retail shopping beyond the grocery store for food, pharmacy for medicine, Target for toiletries, pet food etc., and the occasional trip to Macy's or another department store for clothing. Everything else I just order online and don't bother checking to see if it's cheaper locally.
But in reality, it's just not practical to have tipping for things like cashiers and bag boys and floor service staff. You have a very brief interaction with them, vs. being served over an hour or so at a restaurant. So it's harder to gauge performance etc. They're working more for the store than for customers. Where as servers are the other way around.
Though I will say an odd area where tipping applies is with valets. Not much interaction there, you give them your car and get a ticket. Come back and give them the ticket and they bring you your car. Not sure why that needs to be a tip based industry vs just a salaried job as there's not much employee/customer interaction or expectation of service beyond being polite and not dinging up your car.
pittpizza
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The same principle doesn't apply to other customer service jobs because they get a higher hourly wage. Plus they aren't waiting on you like a waiter or waitress does.
Yeah bob unless it is stated on the menu then it shouldn't be expected.
And in a traffic jam, unless there is a signal saying "Take turns Merging" then it shouldn't be expected.
In an elevator, unless it says "it's polite to let women exit first" then it shouldn't be expected.
In a fire, when the lights and alarms start sounding, unless there is a sign that says "in case of fire leave the building" it shouldn't be expected.
Welcome to America, where if you go out to eat a dining establishment where you get waited on, and get excellent service, it is expected that you will tip the server since they only get 2.35 as an hourly wage. Now we can save ink on menus.
Yeah bob unless it is stated on the menu then it shouldn't be expected.
And in a traffic jam, unless there is a signal saying "Take turns Merging" then it shouldn't be expected.
In an elevator, unless it says "it's polite to let women exit first" then it shouldn't be expected.
In a fire, when the lights and alarms start sounding, unless there is a sign that says "in case of fire leave the building" it shouldn't be expected.
Welcome to America, where if you go out to eat a dining establishment where you get waited on, and get excellent service, it is expected that you will tip the server since they only get 2.35 as an hourly wage. Now we can save ink on menus.
[quote name='dmaul1114']Just not the societal norms for whatever reason.[/quote]
This is the same thing we get into with tipping - it's the "norm" in the US whereas it's not elsewhere. But, as most would agree, just because it's how we run things in the US, it doesn't make it right.
Pay the staff a fair wage and let the tipping be optional.
Just an interesting story for reference:
http://consumerist.com/2007/08/walm...enagers-as-baggers-in-its-mexican-stores.html
Apparently, it's the "societal norm" in Mexico to tip the bag boys - as they actually do work only on tips (which is a big difference between them and servers here in the US). Some of the comments on this article are interesting though...
See, though - this is where the business should be gauging the employee's over-all performance (and thus, their over-all pay) and the customer can gauge the performance based on whatever interaction they have (and thus, the tip). Granted, I don't expect you to tip the guy at Best Buy 15% of your $1,500 television set - but did he walk you through the differences between the TVs? Make sure you were getting the right size for your seating arrangement? Did he get you the right cables you needed? Was he nice, friendly and not to overbearing? Did he get your TV from the back promptly? Or did he act like helping you was the biggest pain in his life? Tip him a buck or two. Yeah, it's not much, but he probably deals with - easily - 50 customers a night. I bet he'd be thrilled (and would try to give better service) if he went home with an extra $50-$100 each night - on top of his standard wage, of course.
Likewise, pizza delivery drivers. They simply drop off the food. Don't get me wrong, I usually tip (in fact, more than my wife does, and she's a big believer in tipping, as she waited tables all though college... one time, the driver even said something to her asking if I was okay that I hadn't got the door in awhile - we order pizza about once a week - and the only thing I can figure is because I tip better)... but really - you're just bringing me a pizza, man. If it wasn't for the fact that I know the drivers fight to deliver to us (and fast) and I know they make certain we get what we order (don't forget to grab my cup of garlic butter for the cheese filled breadsticks please... I swear whenever there's a new driver, they forget it...) I probably wouldn't even bother.
This is the same thing we get into with tipping - it's the "norm" in the US whereas it's not elsewhere. But, as most would agree, just because it's how we run things in the US, it doesn't make it right.
Pay the staff a fair wage and let the tipping be optional.
Just an interesting story for reference:
http://consumerist.com/2007/08/walm...enagers-as-baggers-in-its-mexican-stores.html
Apparently, it's the "societal norm" in Mexico to tip the bag boys - as they actually do work only on tips (which is a big difference between them and servers here in the US). Some of the comments on this article are interesting though...
See, though - this is where the business should be gauging the employee's over-all performance (and thus, their over-all pay) and the customer can gauge the performance based on whatever interaction they have (and thus, the tip). Granted, I don't expect you to tip the guy at Best Buy 15% of your $1,500 television set - but did he walk you through the differences between the TVs? Make sure you were getting the right size for your seating arrangement? Did he get you the right cables you needed? Was he nice, friendly and not to overbearing? Did he get your TV from the back promptly? Or did he act like helping you was the biggest pain in his life? Tip him a buck or two. Yeah, it's not much, but he probably deals with - easily - 50 customers a night. I bet he'd be thrilled (and would try to give better service) if he went home with an extra $50-$100 each night - on top of his standard wage, of course.
Likewise, pizza delivery drivers. They simply drop off the food. Don't get me wrong, I usually tip (in fact, more than my wife does, and she's a big believer in tipping, as she waited tables all though college... one time, the driver even said something to her asking if I was okay that I hadn't got the door in awhile - we order pizza about once a week - and the only thing I can figure is because I tip better)... but really - you're just bringing me a pizza, man. If it wasn't for the fact that I know the drivers fight to deliver to us (and fast) and I know they make certain we get what we order (don't forget to grab my cup of garlic butter for the cheese filled breadsticks please... I swear whenever there's a new driver, they forget it...) I probably wouldn't even bother.
[quote name='pittpizza']The same principle doesn't apply to other customer service jobs because they get a higher hourly wage. Plus they aren't waiting on you like a waiter or waitress does.[/QUOTE]
Without tips, servers are required to be paid minimum wage - the same amount most other customer service jobs get paid. You can keep ignoring this and I can keep repeating it and we can get nowhere. Welcome to the vs. forum.
Without tips, servers are required to be paid minimum wage - the same amount most other customer service jobs get paid. You can keep ignoring this and I can keep repeating it and we can get nowhere. Welcome to the vs. forum.
[quote name='UncleBob']Maybe if you tipped your sales clerk they'd be more likely to go out of their way for you in the future?[/QUOTE]It's usually against bigger-sized store policy for most of their employees to accept tips, which is why most people don't tip the sales clerk in addition to it just being not commonly done. I've only seen cosmetics freelance companies allow tipping inside of one Federated department store. I know the stock boys that bring your stuff to your car aren't allowed to accept tips and neither is anybody else except for people who aren't bound by store policy, freelancers and vendors renting the space.
You really ought to try out retail and waiting on tables. It'll give you a new people-hating perspective and sore feet at the same time.
You really ought to try out retail and waiting on tables. It'll give you a new people-hating perspective and sore feet at the same time.
mykevermin
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"cheese filled breadsticks."
[quote name='UncleBob']This is the same thing we get into with tipping - it's the "norm" in the US whereas it's not elsewhere. But, as most would agree, just because it's how we run things in the US, it doesn't make it right.
Pay the staff a fair wage and let the tipping be optional.
[/QUOTE]
But again, in my experience that leads to a decline in service as they have less incentive to bust ass.
I like the system we have as it means the servers are working FOR ME and have incentive to give me the best service possible.
If tipping is totally optional, many will not tip or tip poorly, and thus servers see little benefit in going the extra mile and just do the bare minimum like I mostly got the last time I was in Europe.
So I prefer the system we have as it gets me better service in my experience and a big reason I eat out at nice restaurants is to get nice service and be waited on hand and foot. Again, if I just wanted good food I'd cook for myself or pick up carryout and eat in the comfort of my own home.
And again, I'm ok of going to more tipping and lower wages in other service sectors, though I think there are challenges to doing so there as I outlined before. Not insurmountable, but difficult as the level of service is different.
Another issue is retail service is just largely not needed anymore. My generation and younger doesn't need help picking out TVs etc. We can research them online and know what we want before we get to the store. We don't need cashiers as we're tech literate enough to use self checkouts more quickly than having to interact with a cashier etc.
So I really see tough times ahead for retail. Somethings will always need to be available locally like food, clothing, toiletries, medicine, home repair supplies etc. But most other things we don't need to get immediately or check on in person so ordering online is just easier and more convenient.
The decline of manufacturing was a huge challenge for the lower class. I see the decline of retail and service sector jobs being the next challenge for unskilled/under educated laborers in the coming decades. It will be interesting sociologically to see how and if they adapt, or if it causes huge problems and leads to an increase in crimes, drug abuse and other social ills like we saw from the 1960s through the mid 1990s.
Pay the staff a fair wage and let the tipping be optional.
[/QUOTE]
But again, in my experience that leads to a decline in service as they have less incentive to bust ass.
I like the system we have as it means the servers are working FOR ME and have incentive to give me the best service possible.
If tipping is totally optional, many will not tip or tip poorly, and thus servers see little benefit in going the extra mile and just do the bare minimum like I mostly got the last time I was in Europe.
So I prefer the system we have as it gets me better service in my experience and a big reason I eat out at nice restaurants is to get nice service and be waited on hand and foot. Again, if I just wanted good food I'd cook for myself or pick up carryout and eat in the comfort of my own home.
And again, I'm ok of going to more tipping and lower wages in other service sectors, though I think there are challenges to doing so there as I outlined before. Not insurmountable, but difficult as the level of service is different.
Another issue is retail service is just largely not needed anymore. My generation and younger doesn't need help picking out TVs etc. We can research them online and know what we want before we get to the store. We don't need cashiers as we're tech literate enough to use self checkouts more quickly than having to interact with a cashier etc.
So I really see tough times ahead for retail. Somethings will always need to be available locally like food, clothing, toiletries, medicine, home repair supplies etc. But most other things we don't need to get immediately or check on in person so ordering online is just easier and more convenient.
The decline of manufacturing was a huge challenge for the lower class. I see the decline of retail and service sector jobs being the next challenge for unskilled/under educated laborers in the coming decades. It will be interesting sociologically to see how and if they adapt, or if it causes huge problems and leads to an increase in crimes, drug abuse and other social ills like we saw from the 1960s through the mid 1990s.
[quote name='Mad39er']You really ought to try out retail and waiting on tables. It'll give you a new people-hating perspective and sore feet at the same time.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I've done both. Much less time waiting tables though. Although I did do kid's birthday parties when I worked fast food in college. It was actually pretty fun. Made some *AWESOME* tips doing that.
[quote name='mykevermin']"cheese filled breadsticks."[/QUOTE]
Yes?
They're quite tasty. I've tried making them at home, but they just don't come out the same (and this is the same brand the local pizza place uses). Dunno what they do to them, but they're good.
[quote name='dmaul1114']But again, in my experience that leads to a decline in service as they have less incentive to bust ass.[/quote]
Keeping their job should be incentive enough to bust ass. If you've got a job serving that pays minimum wage plus tips, there's probably going to be some pretty good competition for that job.
Agreed (thus the topic about sales tax I created).
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what it comes down to. At least the manufacturing jobs were replaced with sales positions (via commercialism) that required little-to-no skill. Now, we end up with tech jobs (and far fewer in number) - and those require a bit of skill. Your average line worker could slide into a retail position pretty easily. Your average retail worker is going to have a harder time sliding into any kind of technical position (at least the ones I work with...)
Sure, we'll still have warehouses stateside, but even those employee a *lot* less people while serving a lot more.
Actually, I've done both. Much less time waiting tables though. Although I did do kid's birthday parties when I worked fast food in college. It was actually pretty fun. Made some *AWESOME* tips doing that.
[quote name='mykevermin']"cheese filled breadsticks."[/QUOTE]
Yes?
[quote name='dmaul1114']But again, in my experience that leads to a decline in service as they have less incentive to bust ass.[/quote]
Keeping their job should be incentive enough to bust ass. If you've got a job serving that pays minimum wage plus tips, there's probably going to be some pretty good competition for that job.
Agreed (thus the topic about sales tax I created).
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what it comes down to. At least the manufacturing jobs were replaced with sales positions (via commercialism) that required little-to-no skill. Now, we end up with tech jobs (and far fewer in number) - and those require a bit of skill. Your average line worker could slide into a retail position pretty easily. Your average retail worker is going to have a harder time sliding into any kind of technical position (at least the ones I work with...)
Sure, we'll still have warehouses stateside, but even those employee a *lot* less people while serving a lot more.
[quote name='UncleBob']
Keeping their job should be incentive enough to bust ass. If you've got a job serving that pays minimum wage plus tips, there's probably going to be some pretty good competition for that job.[/quote]
But it's not. A lot of retail jobs pay a little above minimum wage these days, especially for say floor staff in electronics stores. And service still sucks.
Again, the problem is the majority of these employees are young people just working for disposable income--at least in city areas. They don't care about getting promoted etc., so they do the bare minimum to not get fired. Retail service is better in rural areas in my experience as jobs are scarce and you have more people making a living from shity service jobs due to the slim pickin's in the job market.
Have them dependent on tips, and even those who don't give a shit about promotion etc. have a direct and immediate financial incentive to bust ass so they maximize their income on each shift.
If we go to minimum wage and tips that are not expected but totally optional, many people won't tip or will tip much lower than now, and thus servers lose that incentive to go the extra mile to bust ass and get bigger tips as they'll have too many times where they bust ass and get stiffed by the customer and become cynical and just do the bare minimum to not get fired.
People in western society are all about maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain. A tip based salary (or commission based etc.) gives direct incentives--work harder, make more money. A salaried system with optional tips just isn't the same for these dead end, mostly temporary, service jobs. Promotion is enough incentive for working hard in actual careers, but that matters not to the typical retail employee or waiter who isn't doing it as a career but just a temp job while in school or in between jobs in their field etc.
Just my take on it. I prefer people serving me to be getting the vast majority of their wages from customers like me and thus have a direct incentive to provide the best service possible. Expecting managers to hold them to high standards doesn't work as most restaurant and retail middle managers are disgruntled and don't give a shit about their jobs or the customers any more than the service staff does. Service industries in the US have degraded to being all about just going through the motions and doing the bare minimum.
Keeping their job should be incentive enough to bust ass. If you've got a job serving that pays minimum wage plus tips, there's probably going to be some pretty good competition for that job.[/quote]
But it's not. A lot of retail jobs pay a little above minimum wage these days, especially for say floor staff in electronics stores. And service still sucks.
Again, the problem is the majority of these employees are young people just working for disposable income--at least in city areas. They don't care about getting promoted etc., so they do the bare minimum to not get fired. Retail service is better in rural areas in my experience as jobs are scarce and you have more people making a living from shity service jobs due to the slim pickin's in the job market.
Have them dependent on tips, and even those who don't give a shit about promotion etc. have a direct and immediate financial incentive to bust ass so they maximize their income on each shift.
If we go to minimum wage and tips that are not expected but totally optional, many people won't tip or will tip much lower than now, and thus servers lose that incentive to go the extra mile to bust ass and get bigger tips as they'll have too many times where they bust ass and get stiffed by the customer and become cynical and just do the bare minimum to not get fired.
People in western society are all about maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain. A tip based salary (or commission based etc.) gives direct incentives--work harder, make more money. A salaried system with optional tips just isn't the same for these dead end, mostly temporary, service jobs. Promotion is enough incentive for working hard in actual careers, but that matters not to the typical retail employee or waiter who isn't doing it as a career but just a temp job while in school or in between jobs in their field etc.
Just my take on it. I prefer people serving me to be getting the vast majority of their wages from customers like me and thus have a direct incentive to provide the best service possible. Expecting managers to hold them to high standards doesn't work as most restaurant and retail middle managers are disgruntled and don't give a shit about their jobs or the customers any more than the service staff does. Service industries in the US have degraded to being all about just going through the motions and doing the bare minimum.
Don't see where the class action lawsuit is in the Huffington Post article. I'd say that the one involving big time restaurants in NY is the only one that is catering to class action special interests too. There's not really much to gain from 27 people going after a smalltime Asian restaurant.
I'd support tipping/no-tipping sections so freakin' hard. You just can't get certain types of food in buffet restaurants and sometimes it's just nice to eat out so takeout isn't appealing. I'd rather pay more upfront knowing the server is getting commission than feeling like I'm cheating them out of money if I stiff them because the experience was underwhelming.
I'd support tipping/no-tipping sections so freakin' hard. You just can't get certain types of food in buffet restaurants and sometimes it's just nice to eat out so takeout isn't appealing. I'd rather pay more upfront knowing the server is getting commission than feeling like I'm cheating them out of money if I stiff them because the experience was underwhelming.
[quote name='pittpizza']UB what about the fact that other jobs aren't constantly waiting on you for an hour or two like a waiter or waitress does?
You keep harping on the federal min. wage point but seem unwilling to acknowledge there is a higher degree of personal service.[/QUOTE]
My time in serving was short-lived, but I don't recall waiting on a single table for an hour or two non-stop.
Maybe 5 minutes to get drinks, 10 to get the food order, a minute here and there to check up/refill and another five minutes to take them the check/take their money/thank them.
I've spent more one-on-one time with individual customers activating their cell phone and showing them how to access their voice mail/make calls/send text messages/etc. I once went through a six-hour upgrade with a customer because Cingular (when it was Cingular) was being a bunch of douches to this little old lady who was eligible for upgrade, mailed in a check, but they hadn't processed it yet so they were denying her upgrade... in spite of the fact she never had a late payment on her account. Six hours, non-stop, for a single customer. Literally. I had to get a waiver for the meal exception because I didn't want to hand this lady off to another associate and stick them in the middle of the mess I was dealing with.
Again, I didn't spend a lot of time waiting tables, but I don't recall ever having a single customer that I had to wait on for six hours.
You keep harping on the federal min. wage point but seem unwilling to acknowledge there is a higher degree of personal service.[/QUOTE]
My time in serving was short-lived, but I don't recall waiting on a single table for an hour or two non-stop.
Maybe 5 minutes to get drinks, 10 to get the food order, a minute here and there to check up/refill and another five minutes to take them the check/take their money/thank them.
I've spent more one-on-one time with individual customers activating their cell phone and showing them how to access their voice mail/make calls/send text messages/etc. I once went through a six-hour upgrade with a customer because Cingular (when it was Cingular) was being a bunch of douches to this little old lady who was eligible for upgrade, mailed in a check, but they hadn't processed it yet so they were denying her upgrade... in spite of the fact she never had a late payment on her account. Six hours, non-stop, for a single customer. Literally. I had to get a waiver for the meal exception because I didn't want to hand this lady off to another associate and stick them in the middle of the mess I was dealing with.
Again, I didn't spend a lot of time waiting tables, but I don't recall ever having a single customer that I had to wait on for six hours.
But that type of service in selling and helping a customer with a cell phone is different than say a cashier or bag boy or a typical floor staff person.
When you're selling cell phones or computers or tvs etc. there is longer \-term interaction with many customers. But instead of tips, a lot of those people get paid commissions. Thus they have incentive to provide good service to get people to buy things so they make more money. Places like Wal-mart just screw it up by paying the big ticket item sales people (i.e. electronics) standard wages just like the people in small ticket item departments (i.e. clothing or groceries).
Anyway, I spend a lot more time interacting with a waiter than I do the cashier at the grocery store or target, or the electronics department employee at target I have to ask to get a game out of the locked case (which isn't service but inconvenience relative to places like Best Buy that have games out for customers to grab and take to the register). Thus tipping makes more sense. I'm interacting with the person multiple times. Vs. just asking a quick question or standing there trying to avoid small talk while the ring up my purchases etc.
For more involved retail sales like cell phones, tvs, big appliances etc., I think a commission system is more practical than a tipping system for giving employees incentive to go the extra mile. Tipping is best for things like wait staff, staff in spas etc. where there is repeated interaction between customer and the employee vs. one longer interaction that's basically the process of making a sell and encouraging the person to come back in the future--which is better incentivized through commission based salaries.
When you're selling cell phones or computers or tvs etc. there is longer \-term interaction with many customers. But instead of tips, a lot of those people get paid commissions. Thus they have incentive to provide good service to get people to buy things so they make more money. Places like Wal-mart just screw it up by paying the big ticket item sales people (i.e. electronics) standard wages just like the people in small ticket item departments (i.e. clothing or groceries).
Anyway, I spend a lot more time interacting with a waiter than I do the cashier at the grocery store or target, or the electronics department employee at target I have to ask to get a game out of the locked case (which isn't service but inconvenience relative to places like Best Buy that have games out for customers to grab and take to the register). Thus tipping makes more sense. I'm interacting with the person multiple times. Vs. just asking a quick question or standing there trying to avoid small talk while the ring up my purchases etc.
For more involved retail sales like cell phones, tvs, big appliances etc., I think a commission system is more practical than a tipping system for giving employees incentive to go the extra mile. Tipping is best for things like wait staff, staff in spas etc. where there is repeated interaction between customer and the employee vs. one longer interaction that's basically the process of making a sell and encouraging the person to come back in the future--which is better incentivized through commission based salaries.
[quote name='cindersphere']What if you get takeout from a restaurant, should one still tip?[/QUOTE]
I asked this while getting a rather large chinese takeout the other day. The girl went to the kitchen to grab my order, unbagged it and checked to make sure everything was right, rebagged it, grabbed extra chopsticks and ciookies etc... Is that worth 15%? No, but she said that the common courtesy is "a buck a bag" that gets checked. As I had three bags I put down three bucks and it felt right.
The buffet principle applies, basically somewhere between $0.50 and $1.00 per plate that you dirty and drink refill that you get is what your tip should be.
I asked this while getting a rather large chinese takeout the other day. The girl went to the kitchen to grab my order, unbagged it and checked to make sure everything was right, rebagged it, grabbed extra chopsticks and ciookies etc... Is that worth 15%? No, but she said that the common courtesy is "a buck a bag" that gets checked. As I had three bags I put down three bucks and it felt right.
The buffet principle applies, basically somewhere between $0.50 and $1.00 per plate that you dirty and drink refill that you get is what your tip should be.
cindersphere
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[quote name='dmaul1114']But it's not. A lot of retail jobs pay a little above minimum wage these days, especially for say floor staff in electronics stores. And service still sucks.
Again, the problem is the majority of these employees are young people just working for disposable income--at least in city areas. They don't care about getting promoted etc., so they do the bare minimum to not get fired. Retail service is better in rural areas in my experience as jobs are scarce and you have more people making a living from shity service jobs due to the slim pickin's in the job market.
Have them dependent on tips, and even those who don't give a shit about promotion etc. have a direct and immediate financial incentive to bust ass so they maximize their income on each shift.
If we go to minimum wage and tips that are not expected but totally optional, many people won't tip or will tip much lower than now, and thus servers lose that incentive to go the extra mile to bust ass and get bigger tips as they'll have too many times where they bust ass and get stiffed by the customer and become cynical and just do the bare minimum to not get fired.
People in western society are all about maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain. A tip based salary (or commission based etc.) gives direct incentives--work harder, make more money. A salaried system with optional tips just isn't the same for these dead end, mostly temporary, service jobs. Promotion is enough incentive for working hard in actual careers, but that matters not to the typical retail employee or waiter who isn't doing it as a career but just a temp job while in school or in between jobs in their field etc.
Just my take on it. I prefer people serving me to be getting the vast majority of their wages from customers like me and thus have a direct incentive to provide the best service possible. Expecting managers to hold them to high standards doesn't work as most restaurant and retail middle managers are disgruntled and don't give a shit about their jobs or the customers any more than the service staff does. Service industries in the US have degraded to being all about just going through the motions and doing the bare minimum.[/QUOTE]
Let me ask you a question then, have you ever got help loading something in your car?
Secondly, from personal experience helping raise my brother (yay 15 year gaps in births), incentives do not work that way.
Again, the problem is the majority of these employees are young people just working for disposable income--at least in city areas. They don't care about getting promoted etc., so they do the bare minimum to not get fired. Retail service is better in rural areas in my experience as jobs are scarce and you have more people making a living from shity service jobs due to the slim pickin's in the job market.
Have them dependent on tips, and even those who don't give a shit about promotion etc. have a direct and immediate financial incentive to bust ass so they maximize their income on each shift.
If we go to minimum wage and tips that are not expected but totally optional, many people won't tip or will tip much lower than now, and thus servers lose that incentive to go the extra mile to bust ass and get bigger tips as they'll have too many times where they bust ass and get stiffed by the customer and become cynical and just do the bare minimum to not get fired.
People in western society are all about maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain. A tip based salary (or commission based etc.) gives direct incentives--work harder, make more money. A salaried system with optional tips just isn't the same for these dead end, mostly temporary, service jobs. Promotion is enough incentive for working hard in actual careers, but that matters not to the typical retail employee or waiter who isn't doing it as a career but just a temp job while in school or in between jobs in their field etc.
Just my take on it. I prefer people serving me to be getting the vast majority of their wages from customers like me and thus have a direct incentive to provide the best service possible. Expecting managers to hold them to high standards doesn't work as most restaurant and retail middle managers are disgruntled and don't give a shit about their jobs or the customers any more than the service staff does. Service industries in the US have degraded to being all about just going through the motions and doing the bare minimum.[/QUOTE]
Let me ask you a question then, have you ever got help loading something in your car?
Secondly, from personal experience helping raise my brother (yay 15 year gaps in births), incentives do not work that way.
cindersphere
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[quote name='retrad']I bet bob and others that share his point of view have a ed up haircut because he didn't know hes supposed to tip his hairdresser.
/topic[/QUOTE]
I always get aed up one even though I do tip.
ed up haircut because he didn't know hes supposed to tip his hairdresser./topic[/QUOTE]
I always get a
ed up one even though I do tip. 
Allnatural
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[quote name='UncleBob']
Likewise, pizza delivery drivers. They simply drop off the food.[/QUOTE]
It's an inherently dangerous job, dealing with traffic, bad weather, scumbags that want to rob you...
Also, most places these days (the big chains anyway) are paying their drivers sub-minimum wages.
Likewise, pizza delivery drivers. They simply drop off the food.[/QUOTE]
It's an inherently dangerous job, dealing with traffic, bad weather, scumbags that want to rob you...
Also, most places these days (the big chains anyway) are paying their drivers sub-minimum wages.
bread's done