Black generally tip less.

[quote name='dmaul1114']People go out to eat to be SERVED. We go out so we don't have to cook for ourselves, and we go to places with wait staff to be served. Tips are how we pay for service.[/quote]

You pay for service when you pay for your food. It's part of the cost. When I go out to eat, I go out for food. I could care less if it's buffet style get it yourself, order it at a counter, or have someone bring it to me - so long as it's good. And you know who makes the food good? It isn't the wait staff... it's those guys in the kitchen (the ones that make it so you don't have to cook for yourself). They don't get tipped either. And a lot of those people make minimum wage as well (depending on the type of establishment and the level of expertise in the kitchen, of course).

I don't go to Best Buy or the grocery store etc. to be served, so I don't need to tip as I'm not paying for any service. I can find what I'm looking for on my own, so I seldom use the sales staff on the floor.
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So, when you *do* use the sales staff on the floor, you tip them, right? Also, that sales staff - they bring the merchandise to the floor so that you *can* find it on your own. They (typically) organize it, price it, etc. all so your shopping experience is easy.

Curious, though - Tipping is pretty much an American thing - any ideas why in, say, most European countries, it's just not customary to tip?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']That's a very broad definition of achievement.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/achievement
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, dictionary game, I thought so. I especially like this game when somebody points to definition #1 instead of definition #2 and acts like it's the definition. You could look up the words "accomplish" and "especially" if you want to work with #1.

Next you'll be telling me that importing a character from Mass Effect 1 into Mass Effect 2 doesn't involve heroism, courage, or superior ability.

[quote name='UncleBob']And thus, I didn't.[/QUOTE]

And you didn't make the racist claim, just decided to look up words, apparently for the sole purpose of not labeling it "racist." I guess it's at least nice that you find that to be such a negative term that you want to avoid using it. That doesn't really negate racism though.


Pitt -

It's racist if you assign it to race, not racist if you are discussing various plausible reasons why this trend that correlates with race might occur (as the original article was). Like effects from institutionalized racism, cultural differences, self-fulfilling prophecies, etc.

The most interesting thing is that you clearly had this stereotype, titled the thread "black people don't tip," googled up this 8 year old article to justify your stereotype, and in the end all it shows is that on average black people tip 80% of the average white person's tip.

Considering that tips are generally not gigantic amounts of money that would add up to something like my $4 vs. $5 example, or if you want to go to $20 (which would generally be the tip on a $100 bill), you'd get a $16 tip instead.

It's such a minor difference that the persistence of the stereotype must be running on mostly confirmation bias and/or general racism towards black people.
 
Tipping bothers me immensely on principle but I do it. Sometimes it's out of actual gratuity. Sometimes it's out of being forced to because people working as a server are vindictive.

If I have a good time, I'm gonna tip well. I forgive mistakes like something being forgotten, a problem with how something came out, or plates being given to the wrong person or something.

I don't reward people who go against the whole premise of the job though. We've entered into this "agreement" of me paying you what your employer won't in exchange for basically being my servant. If I feel like I could have done a better job myself, I'm saving that extra money and doing the bare minimum of 10-15%. Taking a long time on the food coming is one thing because that's rarely their fault but if I never see you again and it's not busy, I'm gonna pretty pissed if I need anything and have to see if I can find you.

I have to be honest too that meals with a random bit of rogue food in them gross me out more than hair. Hair you can take out, most times the food you can't because it's been cooked in. If you even give me so much as a dirty glance because there's a random blueberry amidst my pancakes and can't understand why I don't think it's a bonus, you're getting stiffed because it means I'm paying for a meal I'm not eating as I'm damn sure not sending it back. That's only happened once. It was at Friendly's when I got served hot breakfast with a plate-wide slice of melon on top of it and was told to just take it off.
 
[quote name='IRHari']What if the food sucks? What if the service sucks? Is there a system you use to determine how much if any you tip?[/QUOTE]

The food sucking isn't the server's fault, but you should speak to a manager.

If the service sucks, you should also speak to the manager.

Problems don't get fixed if you just shaft the server by not tipping.

Speak to the manager and they can address the problem and you'll often get your meal comped as well.


I just don't have any problem with tipping. It's the norm in the US as service IS NOT included in the price of the food. Servers make below minimum wage so the restaurant isn't paying full service costs. In other countries it is different and wait staff is paid more and thus the price of food does include service. It's just not that way in the US, and we put service cost on the customers. I prefer that personally as it holds the server directly accountable to us as customers as they have to please us to make good money.

In limited experiences traveling, I tend get better service in the US than in Europe--and like that they're are more places with waitstaff here. Lots of more cafe-style places in Europe where you just order and pick up your food at a counter. I prefer being waited on. I go out to eat not just for the food, but to sit back and relax with good company and not have to get up to get food or refill my drink etc.

Eating out and being waited on is a luxury. If you can't afford the food and a good tip for good service, then eat a home, get carryout, go to a buffet style place etc.
 
im not sure how this is that confusing to people

if you aren't going to tip, dont go to a sit down restaurant where you are served, go eat at a buffet, panda express etc because you dont deserve any better than that. Pretty simple stuff.

If the service is bad do w/e you want with the tip but thats not what this topic is about is it.
 
If you don't tip or lowball your server at restaurants, then you're cheap, there's nothing more to it. Don't even bother to rationalize it that you're making some principled stand by not tipping.
 
I am going to quickly weigh in on this.

Studies like this are mind boggling to me as I dont understand how people can waste grant money on dumbass topics. How about taking that money and using it for real studies that help mankind. Studies like this are only used for 2 reasons, for a person who is already racist to justify their racism with a "See I told you dem $$$$ers/spics/rednecks/sand $$$$as/etc are bad. Look at this poorly researched article that proves it. The second reason as I said is a use for poor lazy social scientist to justify their existences on why they waste so much grant money.

As a black man I tip quite well (oh shit I just broke your study) so much so that I always get yelled at by my non black wife. Although I very much hate the "tipping" aspect of American life. No tip should ever have a mandatory limit, its suppose to be a reward for over the top service not simply doing your job.

In the words of the great Chris Rock, "$$$$as always want some credit for some shit they are suppose to do."

Going off the assumption that people not only are suppose to give you money for simply writing what they said on a piece of paper but that you have a minimal amount you deem "worthy" is ludicrous. Thats the thing I really hate about waiters in general....they have the same amount of skill as a cashier or a cart getter or a retail monkey (we have all been at least one of those) with the only difference is that any non waiter will make the exact same paycheck every week. Where as a waiter can actually make 100 bucks in non taxable tips on a good night.

Every waiter I have every known does the same thing, happy on Saturday when they brought home 85 bucks in tips but super pissed on Tuesday when they bring home 20. You have to take the good and the bad without bitching. You dont like it...get a different job. Whether someone tips or not is their business and part of your job. Get the fuck over it and quit crying. You dont think I get annoyed when a client pays 200 for a project and then assumes that 800 dollars of revisions should be included just because? Its annoying but part of the game and I deal with it without crying and calling them names.
 
[quote name='retrad']if you guys understood what a stressful shit job that being a server was you would tip, without tips they are paid minimum wage (which we all know is jack shit) and in general the amount of running around they have to do and asshole customers they have to deal with make it a terrible job for min wage.

the only reason they can make a decent living is tips, if you are a server and no one gave tips you pretty much have one of the worst jobs in the US.

I deal with a lot of customer service issues and the amount of assholes one has to deal with in a day is typically insanely high.

if you dont tip and you get waited on in a restaurant you are probably one of those assholes im talking about anyway.[/QUOTE]


"WAAAAAAH" Again, dont be a child and throw a pity party, woe is me look at how hard I have to work. I believe there is roughly 6.9 billion people in in the world you are part of a at least a 6 billion member club. But of course in your mind your problems far out weighs any one else, there couldnt possible be anyone else on the planet going through some similar or...Gasp WORSE than being a waiter.

That way of thinking is so childish, so immature, so selfish and so typical American underachiever. I am not saying waiters by default are underachievers I am saying that mind set of, "People should give me fist full of money because my waiting job is sooooo stressful," is embarrassing.

I hate to sound like a old man but you Retrad are what is wrong with American youth. That self entitlement at other expense justified by accomplishing something that anyone with 2 arms and 2 legs and half a mind can should be shameful.

If you dont like it...get another job. Period.
 
[quote name='pittpizza']I'm not racist.
......
I've dated a black girl in college and had a black prom date.[/QUOTE]

The typical 'I'm not a racist' and 'I have a black friend' defense used by racists. You are a racist and everything you said backs that fact up. The sooner you admit it openly the sooner you can learn to rid yourself of your ignorance, intolerance, and bigotry.
 
Spaz I agree with this : "It's racist if you assign it to race, not racist if you are discussing various plausible reasons why this trend that correlates with race might occur (as the original article was). Like effects from institutionalized racism, cultural differences, self-fulfilling prophecies, etc." Definitely.

You're wrong though about my pre-existing conclusion. I didn't adopt it as fact until I read it in that Cornell study. Only after this did I make the thread.

I think too, that the persistence of this stereotype, although true, is mostly due to confirmation bias and general or institutional racism towards black people.

Soodmeg I'm curious, have you ever worked for tips?

Yeah rumblebear, you don't sound too bright, and you don't seem to be reading or digesting a thing I'm saying. You also seem unable to add anything to this discussion besides name-calling, so as of now I'm done responding to your trolling.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']The food sucking isn't the server's fault, but you should speak to a manager.

If the service sucks, you should also speak to the manager.

Problems don't get fixed if you just shaft the server by not tipping.

Speak to the manager and they can address the problem and you'll often get your meal comped as well.[/quote]

If the food and/or service sucks, in most cases I dont waste the time talking to a manager. I simply dont eat there again. It's not my responsibilty nor my pleasure to try and mak someone else's business better. What I'm more likely to do is tell my friends not to eat there either. To borrow a few common phrases, 'You only get one chance to make a first impression' and 'If you do a good job, people will tell a friend or two. If you do a bad job, people will tell everybody'.


I just don't have any problem with tipping. It's the norm in the US as service IS NOT included in the price of the food. Servers make below minimum wage so the restaurant isn't paying full service costs. In other countries it is different and wait staff is paid more and thus the price of food does include service. It's just not that way in the US, and we put service cost on the customers. I prefer that personally as it holds the server directly accountable to us as customers as they have to please us to make good money.
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I think it's odd that with all the different service industries in the USA (mechanics, hotels, banks, taxis, etc.) that only full service restaurant wait staff are subject to this 'direct payment'. I mean, it customary to tip bartenders, barbers, and taxi drivers too, but they arent on any special minimum wage scale. Curious.

Eating out and being waited on is a luxury. If you can't afford the food and a good tip for good service, then eat a home, get carryout, go to a buffet style place etc.
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[quote name='retrad']
if you aren't going to tip, dont go to a sit down restaurant where you are served, go eat at a buffet, panda express etc because you dont deserve any better than that. Pretty simple stuff.[/QUOTE]

Wait, you people dont tip the 'drink server' at Golden Corral, Ryan's and the like? Terrible!
 
Adding my two cents. I never tip as a rule. I feel bad for the waiters but on principle I don't believe it is right that restaurants get a loop hole out of min. wage.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Adding my two cents. I never tip as a rule. I feel bad for the waiters but on principle I don't believe it is right that restaurants get a loop hole out of min. wage.[/QUOTE]
They don't get a loop hole. The min wage for wait staff is 2.50 an hour in NYC, if they get boned on a tip they take it with no lube. Lots of other States have a similar minimum wage for people that work for tips.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']Thats the thing I really hate about waiters in general....they have the same amount of skill as a cashier or a cart getter or a retail monkey (we have all been at least one of those) with the only difference is that any non waiter will make the exact same paycheck every week. Where as a waiter can actually make 100 bucks in non taxable tips on a good night.[/QUOTE]
Tips are taxable income. Sure, you can argue that waiters and waitresses don't claim all of their tips, but they're supposed to.

And I wouldn't put the wait staff at the same skill level as others (no offense to the "retail monkeys"). It's a far more hectic and demanding job.
 
[quote name='Mad39er']They don't get a loop hole. The min wage for wait staff is 2.50 an hour in NYC, if they get boned on a tip they take it with no lube. Lots of other States have a similar minimum wage for people that work for tips.[/QUOTE]

I think his point (which I agree with) is that they should be paid the same minimum wage as anyone else would be, let tips be extra for a good experience being waited on.
 
I wonder if I can order take out, sit down;start eating then and there at the restaurant.LOOP HOLE.I do generally agree to tip when the service is extensive(i.e. hair cuts,baristas,pizza delivery, tattoo artist)and when someone has a hand in preparing food, but (IMHO) I find the waiting to be an unnecessary luxury.If waiting is a luxury then give me the option of choosing the luxury of being waited on.So in actuality waiters are people who wait on you.They just stand there waiting.If I need anything they'll bring it to me,but what if I don't want to be waited it on?Then there should really be non-waiting and waiting sections at restaurants.@pittipizza Last I checked bus boys clean tables and take plates to the back.Are you waiter/bus boy?
 
[quote name='hostyl1']If the food and/or service sucks, in most cases I dont waste the time talking to a manager. I simply dont eat there again. It's not my responsibilty nor my pleasure to try and mak someone else's business better. What I'm more likely to do is tell my friends not to eat there either. To borrow a few common phrases, 'You only get one chance to make a first impression' and 'If you do a good job, people will tell a friend or two. If you do a bad job, people will tell everybody'.[/quote]

It depends on the place for me. If it's a place I eat at regularly and usually gotten great food and service, I'll usually say something as I don't want the place to go down hill since I like it normally.

If it's my first time, or place I was kind of meh on, I usually do same as you and just don't go there again. No shortage of places to eat living in a big city.

Wait, you people dont tip the 'drink server' at Golden Corral, Ryan's and the like? Terrible!
Click to expand...

I seldom eat at those type of buffet places as I want fresh food and want to be waited on. But if I get drug to one I do tip the drink server etc. But I believe (but maybe I'm wrong) that the drink servers/bussers get minimum wage or whatever the restaurant pays rather than being tip dependent and paid a lower wage?

Anyway, I'm always baffled why they have those people though, seems it would be easier and cheaper for the restaurant just to have customers refill their own drinks at the fountain and just have bus boys.


[quote name='Allnatural']
And I wouldn't put the wait staff at the same skill level as others (no offense to the "retail monkeys"). It's a far more hectic and demanding job.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I did both retail work and table waiting years back. The table waiting was much harder work. A lot more hectic. A lot more service focused--lot more interaction with customers your waiting on than you have working a register in terms of how much you're talking to them, answering questions etc. throughout a shift.

[quote name='Clak']I think his point (which I agree with) is that they should be paid the same minimum wage as anyone else would be, let tips be extra for a good experience being waited on.[/QUOTE]

I'm not opposed to that, but again I really like having servers held accountable to me for their wages as it puts more pressure on them to give good service.

If restaurants are paying minimum wage or more, the impetus for good service goes down a bit. And if they have that burden in their pockets, I bet we'd see more restaurants opt to go cafe style like in Europe and not have servers but just have customers order and then pick up food and drinks at the counter.

And I'd hate both of those as again I really enjoy going out and being waited on and like having as many options as possible and the best average service across the board as possible. And in my experience the US system is better at that than the non-tipping system in other countries.

[quote name='mrx001'] Last I checked bus boys clean tables and take plates to the back.Are you waiter/bus boy?[/QUOTE]

When it's busy servers are expected to help in busing tables to keep the turn over fast.

Also, they always have to "pre-bus"--carrying things away as people finish dishes so they don't have empty plates and glasses in their way.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']"WAAAAAAH" Again, dont be a child and throw a pity party, woe is me look at how hard I have to work. I believe there is roughly 6.9 billion people in in the world you are part of a at least a 6 billion member club. But of course in your mind your problems far out weighs any one else, there couldnt possible be anyone else on the planet going through some similar or...Gasp WORSE than being a waiter.

That way of thinking is so childish, so immature, so selfish and so typical American underachiever. I am not saying waiters by default are underachievers I am saying that mind set of, "People should give me fist full of money because my waiting job is sooooo stressful," is embarrassing.

I hate to sound like a old man but you Retrad are what is wrong with American youth. That self entitlement at other expense justified by accomplishing something that anyone with 2 arms and 2 legs and half a mind can should be shameful.

If you dont like it...get another job. Period.[/QUOTE]

I dont work in the restaurant industry...

could you be any dumber and more assuming?
 
[quote name='Allnatural']Tips are taxable income. Sure, you can argue that waiters and waitresses don't claim all of their tips, but they're supposed to.

And I wouldn't put the wait staff at the same skill level as others (no offense to the "retail monkeys"). It's a far more hectic and demanding job.[/QUOTE]

Most people dont claim most of their tips in all professions even though we all are suppose to.

To your second point, again, I swear to god that there is not a single profession that thinks more highly of themselves then god damn wait staff. No one is saying that the job doesnt "get hectic," but it doesnt get any more hectic than the thousand of other jobs out there with the only difference is that wait staff has the added bonus of a built in guilt system that forces people to hand them money out of sheer tradition. Then you have the balls to get upset if what...20% of the people you interact with dont.


Please though, enlighten me as to how it takes more skills to be wait staff then a retail monkey or a cart wrangler? The point is that all of those jobs are in the shitty starter/getting through something category. To try and prove that being wait staff is somehow harder than hauling around some old guys golf clubs in the hot weather..or sloshing through the pouring rain/snow getting carts or mowing lawns in muggy June.

Its just funny how hard wait staff tries to convince everyone that their job is the hardest thing on the planet...and if it is what why dont you quit and get one of those easier more paid jobs that everyone else seems to have.

Oh yea I forgot its because in reality you make twice as much as they do all week in a night. Min wage is 7.25 x 8 hours is 58 dollars (not counting for lunch) 58 minus even the bare taxes is like 40 bucks.

Most low paid jobs will make 40ish dollars in a day. Most waiters can triple that on a good night and at least double it on a bad one.
 
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[quote name='retrad']I dont work in the restaurant industry...

could you be any dumber and more assuming?[/QUOTE]

It was a mix of general comments about wait staff with the only direct comment to you having your name in it.

Whether you work in the industry or not as no bearing on the opinion you posted which is what I am commenting on. You positioned yourself as defending the logic behind it...I am merely commenting on that.


You cant say, "if you guys knew what it was like," and then play a "I dont work in it," card when your opinion gets challenged.
 
I swear, every single person in this thread is completely ignoring the fact that it's against Federal Law to pay employees less than the Federal Minimum wage. If their tip wage+tips isn't equal to or greater than Federal Minimum wage, the business is REQUIRED to equalize the server's pay to minimum wage.

Can we please drop this entire "servers make less than minimum wage" crap? Because, legally, they don't. Period. If they are making less than minimum wage, then their employer is screwing them over and they need to contact the DoL.

Here's an interesting thing though - the business doesn't have to pay the various payroll taxes based on tips. So, if the employee gets really good tips and only gets a check for the tip wage, then the business can save a butt load on various taxes and such. Good deal for them.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']
Please though, enlighten me as to how it takes more skills to be wait staff then a retail monkey or a cart wrangler? [/QUOTE]

Neither really take skills. They're all shitty, unskilled jobs.

But having done all of those jobs--cart wrangler/bag boy, cashier in a department store (worked in the kids clothing section *shudders*) and waited tables---the table waiting was the hardest job.

It was harder physically lugging the heavy ass trays of foods, trays of drinks (and having to be careful not to spill shit on customers which I did a couple of times) etc.

And it was harder from a service standpoint as there was a lot more direct interaction with customers than being a bag boy/cart wrangler or a cashier. A lot more having to be patient and bite your tongue through rude ass customers and so on that comes along with having to interact with the public more.

All the jobs sucked, but I'd take the lesser pay of the cart wrangling or cashiering over the higher pay and more hassles of waiting tables if I had to do any of those shitty jobs again.

But at least those shitty jobs were great motivation to bust ass in school and get advanced degrees so I'll hopefully never have to work those kind of shitty jobs again and can spend the rest of my life paying to be served rather than getting paid to serve.
 
Does anyone really *pay* to be served per-say?

If you have to choose between a place with nasty food and great service or a place with great food and nasty service (think Seinfield Soup Nazi), where do you go? Personally, if the food is good enough, I don't mind bad service - but if the food is bad, no amount of service in the world will make up for it (looking at you, Hooters).
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I swear, every single person in this thread is completely ignoring the fact that it's against Federal Law to pay employees less than the Federal Minimum wage. If their tip wage+tips isn't equal to or greater than Federal Minimum wage, the business is REQUIRED to equalize the server's pay to minimum wage.

Can we please drop this entire "servers make less than minimum wage" crap? Because, legally, they don't. Period. If they are making less than minimum wage, then their employer is screwing them over and they need to contact the DoL.

Here's an interesting thing though - the business doesn't have to pay the various payroll taxes based on tips. So, if the employee gets really good tips and only gets a check for the tip wage, then the business can save a butt load on various taxes and such. Good deal for them.[/QUOTE]I decided to google around and came up with an interesting yahoo answer to a question posted about the "topping up" and not everybody does it. It's required by law but if the choices are complain to the DoL and lose your job because the restaurant shuts down because they can't make enough money to pay the DoL fines or take one for the team and hope for a better pay period...

Just because it's law doesn't mean it's always followed and I have a feeling that federal law is being broken way more than ever before in this economy with people struggling to stay alive with a shitty job rather than no job at all.

For reference:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100809035346AAHBUGS
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I swear, every single person in this thread is completely ignoring the fact that it's against Federal Law to pay employees less than the Federal Minimum wage. If their tip wage+tips isn't equal to or greater than Federal Minimum wage, the business is REQUIRED to equalize the server's pay to minimum wage.

Can we please drop this entire "servers make less than minimum wage" crap? Because, legally, they don't. Period. If they are making less than minimum wage, then their employer is screwing them over and they need to contact the DoL.

Here's an interesting thing though - the business doesn't have to pay the various payroll taxes based on tips. So, if the employee gets really good tips and only gets a check for the tip wage, then the business can save a butt load on various taxes and such. Good deal for them.[/QUOTE]

UB, nobody is saying that servers make less than minimum wage. What we're saying is that we only get roughly 2.35 an hour from the restaurant. So without tips (which we get, and which are expected, both by us and our employer) we would only make 2.35 an hour.

BUT WE DONT ONLY MAKE 2.35 an hour! We make way more because we usually get TIPPED for excellent service. Waiters and waitresses (maybe pizza delivery) are the only jobs like this. And it does take much more skill and is much more hectic than the litany of comparison jobs you mention.

Dmaul has been doing an excellent job explaining how things work. I'm shocked so many people don't understand how waiters and waitresses get paid. BTW, at the end of the night, I tip out 10% of my tips to the bartender, 10% of my tips to the busser (though I do an excellent job pre-bussing) and 10% to the food-runner (only on fri and sat nights). SO on friday and sat I tip to others 30% of what I get.

Example: 100 bucks in tips.

10 to bar
10 to bussers
10 to foodrunners.
I walk with 70 bucks.
 
If a business isn't following Federal Law, it's not my place to make up for their short comings.

The law is there and if an employer isn't following the law, the employee can file a complaint or quit. That's what we funnel so much money into the DoL for anyway, isn't it? Protecting employees and such.
 
[quote name='pittpizza']So without tips (which we get, and which are expected, both by us and our employer) we would only make 2.35 an hour. [/QUOTE]

No, NO, NO.

Without tips, the employer is required by federal law to equalize your pay up to the minimum wage. Period.
 
[quote name='pittpizza']UB, nobody is saying that servers make less than minimum wage.[/QUOTE]

Really?

[quote name='pittpizza']The sales clerk gets paid a lot higher than the 2-3 dollars an hour that servers get. [...] Waiters and waitresses work essentially ONLY for tips. [...] A tip is not a bonus to a waiter, it is his only form of pay besides 2/hour.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='pittpizza']We don't get paid hourly to do this ($2.35 an hour I think) so we rely almost exclusively on the tip as pay.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='dmaul1114']Servers make below minimum wage so the restaurant isn't paying full service costs.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Mad39er']The min wage for wait staff is 2.50 an hour in NYC, if they get boned on a tip they take it with no lube. Lots of other States have a similar minimum wage for people that work for tips.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Clak']I think his point (which I agree with) is that they should be paid the same minimum wage as anyone else would be, let tips be extra for a good experience being waited on.[/QUOTE]

Seems to be about the opposite of what everyone is saying. Despite the fact that I linked directly to the Department of Labor's website to the exact law that states that businesses are required to equalize one's wages up to minimum wage. No wait staff in the US makes below minimum wage unless that establishment is breaking Federal Law - which is a whole different story.
 
[quote name='Mad39er']I decided to google around and came up with an interesting yahoo answer to a question posted about the "topping up" and not everybody does it. It's required by law but if the choices are complain to the DoL and lose your job because the restaurant shuts down because they can't make enough money to pay the DoL fines or take one for the team and hope for a better pay period...

Just because it's law doesn't mean it's always followed and I have a feeling that federal law is being broken way more than ever before in this economy with people struggling to stay alive with a shitty job rather than no job at all.

For reference:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100809035346AAHBUGS[/QUOTE]


The other side of the coin is that you have to be a pretty shitty employee to make less than minimum wage in tips given how low minimum wage is. In my experience, full time servers average at least $10 an hour--factoring in having to work the slow time shifts to get the lucrative Friday and Saturday night shifts and so on. The great servers make more in the $15-20 range--and I'm sure more than that in 5* restaurants etc. (I only worked for a couple crummy chain restaurants).

But you are right, very few are going to complain about getting less than minimum wage on the shifts that it's slow an they don't hit it as it's not worth risking their jobs when that's usually an anomaly and they're going to make more than minimum wage as long as the restaurant isn't a grave yard during their shift and/or filled by cheapasses!

But as I said, I just don't get the ire over tipping. I eat out to get both good food and to be served. Good service is really key though. If a restaurant doesn't meet both of those I'm not going back. I live in a big city with a shit ton of dining options, no need to settle for less than great food AND great service. I can cook myself or pick up carryout if I just want good food. I go out partly to be served and thus have no problem paying for that service via tips. If others are of a different mind, then just cook yourselves or pick up carryout. If you don't wan to pay for service, don't go for a place that provides service to be paid for via tips.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']But as I said, I just don't get the ire over tipping.[/QUOTE]

My "ire" over tipping is that it's a hidden charge, if you will. It allows the restaurant to price their food below what they should knowing that you're then going to have to make up for it with the tip. Don't play games when it comes to money - tell me how much it is, and then I'll make a decision on if I want to buy it.

Also, add in the fact that it allows the business to pretty much stiff the government on paying taxes and such...
 
[quote name='UncleBob']My "ire" over tipping is that it's a hidden charge, if you will. It allows the restaurant to price their food below what they should knowing that you're then going to have to make up for it with the tip. Don't play games when it comes to money - tell me how much it is, and then I'll make a decision on if I want to buy it.
[/quote]

I don't often click "view post" on you, but I have insomnia at the moment so what the hell.

It's not really a hidden cost when the norm is 20% tip. You know what to expect going in--cost of food plus 20% if service is good. That's pretty simple math. It's no more a hidden cost than retail stores listing prices that don't include the sales tax in them.

And the benefit is that this way servers are working FOR YOU more than for the restaurant. So they have a direct incentive to work for the customer and make sure they have a great experience as their wages depend directly on that.

Service in restaurants is generally very good--especially at nice restaurants. It generally sucks in retail where employees have no incentive to do anything but the bare minimum they can do to not get fired as they get the same wage regardless.

So they can just provide "good" service and keep their job as they don't make extra money for doing a great job. Maybe some incentive through the limited chance for promotion, but the vast majority of retail staff have no intention of making a career of it so that's not much incentive.

Vs. wait staff where their wages depend on providing great service to every customer to try to maximize tips. I like that system as it holds them accountable to me and I tend to get good or great service most of the time when eating out, when retail stores I tend to get good or poor service to the point that I try to do as much shopping online as possible.

It was certainly that way for me. I busted ass waiting tables as my wallet benefited. Working retail I did only what was expected of me. No point to go the extra mile as they were just crappy summer jobs etc. for beer money while I was in college so I didn't give a rat's ass about promotion chances etc. as I never wanted such a low level, dead end career.

Also, add in the fact that it allows the business to pretty much stiff the government on paying taxes and such...
Click to expand...

This is a reasonable point. But it's becoming less of an issue as we move more toward a cashless society. Can't sheet on tips paid via credit card as they're in the system and tracked.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']This is a reasonable point. But it's becoming less of an issue as we move more toward a cashless society. Can't sheet on tips paid via credit card as they're in the system and tracked.[/QUOTE]

You should click "view post" more often... :D

I wasn't talking about wait staff cheating on their taxes...

Businesses don't have to pay payroll taxes on tips and such. It's purely based on payroll. So, if my business' payroll is super-low since I only pay my employees $2.35/hour, then my payroll taxes are going to be a lot lower. Things like workman's comp insurance is typically factored out by payroll as well. Tips just don't figure into this - allowing a business where tipping is expected to end up paying less vs. a business that actually pays their employees full minimum wage all the time.
 
[quote name='Clak']I think his point (which I agree with) is that they should be paid the same minimum wage as anyone else would be, let tips be extra for a good experience being waited on.[/QUOTE]
This is what I was driving at.
 
Pitti, you are a racist. You're what's called a "White Liberal Racist" or rather what I call them. You're the type of racist D.L. Hughley jokes about in his comedy. He has a bit where he mentions a guy saying "I'm not racist, I have two Black friends. If you're not racist then why are you counting them?". Nuff said.
This is kinda like how NPR is racist, nuff said with how they didn't back Tavis Smiley up by advertising for him and so forth, then wondered why he failed. I didn't even know Tavis was around until I heard him driving through somewhere else with NPR.
There's hidden racism around from upper crust or Liberal White people. This is just hidden and not as obvious. These are the people that have "Black friends" but complain quietly when their son or daughter brings a Black bf or gf home.
All this being said pitti, I think rumblebear is a joke account at times. His first comment in this thread was so ridiculous I couldn't help but laugh at it, much like DoK did I suspect.
 
UncleBob, you seem surprised that most people here are flaming you.

Whether tipping is right or wrong is almost irrelevant. You go into a place where tipping is expected, so of course you're going to be labeled a dick.

Your comparison to the Best Buy employee is bad, too. When was the last time you saw a Best Buy employee go out of their way to really help a customer? NEVER. BB employees are paid by the hour without commission, so (at least the one's I've met) they usually don't give a damn. Servers go out of their way all the time because they work for their tips.

If you want to eat restaurant food and not tip, then get carry out.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']It depends on the place for me. If it's a place I eat at regularly and usually gotten great food and service, I'll usually say something as I don't want the place to go down hill since I like it normally.

If it's my first time, or place I was kind of meh on, I usually do same as you and just don't go there again. No shortage of places to eat living in a big city.



I seldom eat at those type of buffet places as I want fresh food and want to be waited on. But if I get drug to one I do tip the drink server etc. But I believe (but maybe I'm wrong) that the drink servers/bussers get minimum wage or whatever the restaurant pays rather than being tip dependent and paid a lower wage?

Anyway, I'm always baffled why they have those people though, seems it would be easier and cheaper for the restaurant just to have customers refill their own drinks at the fountain and just have bus boys.




Agreed. I did both retail work and table waiting years back. The table waiting was much harder work. A lot more hectic. A lot more service focused--lot more interaction with customers your waiting on than you have working a register in terms of how much you're talking to them, answering questions etc. throughout a shift.



I'm not opposed to that, but again I really like having servers held accountable to me for their wages as it puts more pressure on them to give good service.

If restaurants are paying minimum wage or more, the impetus for good service goes down a bit. And if they have that burden in their pockets, I bet we'd see more restaurants opt to go cafe style like in Europe and not have servers but just have customers order and then pick up food and drinks at the counter.

And I'd hate both of those as again I really enjoy going out and being waited on and like having as many options as possible and the best average service across the board as possible. And in my experience the US system is better at that than the non-tipping system in other countries.



When it's busy servers are expected to help in busing tables to keep the turn over fast.

Also, they always have to "pre-bus"--carrying things away as people finish dishes so they don't have empty plates and glasses in their way.[/QUOTE]
But minimum wages isn't exactly living it up you know. I'd say they'd still want those tips.
 
As someone who spent years in the service industry, I hope you non-tipping folks know better than to go back and eat at the same restaurants you just stiffed a server at.

Just sayin'. Nothing will etch the image of your face more concretely than me walking back to where your slovenly, repugnant carcass was just sitting to find a greasy, dirty dollar or two (or none at all) sitting there.

Maybe you fight back, you think, upon your return. I make you sit and wait to order your anything. 2-3 minutes, enough to squirm but not enough to get the manager. I'd go have a cigarette, come back and wash up, do some side work and then, 5-7 minutes after you order, the kitchen gets it finally. I'll deliberately take it out from under the heat lamp so it's cold and dry, I'll make sure your soup is 85% broth, I'll make sure there are grind in your coffee. Yeah, you can get mad and ask me to have it remade. I'll take it back - that's part of my job. Of course, sir, gladly. Is there anything else you want? You don't know if I'm stupid or if I'm fucking with you - even though it never really registers in your brain that you're going to get personal, special treatment tonight. Just not of the kind you desire. You stiffed me, motherfucker, there's a lesson to be learned here.

Notice that I'm serving you poorly, but I'm not fucking with your food. I wouldn't do that. I'll serve you something inedible, and go out of my way to ensure that happens because you bear the scarlet S, you are a stiffer and all the wait staff knows it.

I wouldn't do that. But when I ask the kitchen to refire, all bets are off. The very word 'refire' disrupts an otherwise already chaotic mess of fevered egos and coke heads (often in the same body). I walk away, knowing that I don't want to know what's about to happen to your food. Best case scenario, they take the exact items that I already served you and overcook the fucking shit out of them. The worst case scenario is much more likely. Cooks who know nothing of creativity can show a magnificent amount of forethought and planning all of a sudden, because it gives them the opportunity to be vindictive.

And you'll eat it. It looks better than it did the last time.

I'll smile, call you 'sir,' and make sure everything appears well from the surface. I can't obviously let you in on the secret that I know who you are, I know the curse you bring upon the restaurant, and I'll do my best to rid you from this place - all the while, never overtly displaying that is in fact the case.

Best case scenario: you never come back. Worst case scenario, you think you're smart and will complain to the manager to get some free coupons or a meal or whatever. You know my game and won't give up.

But that's still satisfying, because I love a challenge, and because I'm already satisfied that you had such a shitty time at the restaurant. You know what to expect next time you come in and see me. You'll request someone else serve you. After all, you think I'm just a terrible server who doesn't deserve your tip now. What you don't realize is that I win because I don't have to serve you, I'll make sure I fill in every person who ever has to serve you knows how to treat you. You eventually won't come back.

And, to be clear, you do have a nickname. You're identified the moment those doors open. "HEY! MISTER fuckTITS IS HERE!" It's a warning sign to servers to jockey for position, so they don't get saddled with serving you. It's a call for the kitchen to prepare their maniacal plans for what to put on your plate. It's a warning call for the manager to try, in earnest and ultimately in defeat, to let you know that he's a customer who deserves to be treated like anyone else. When you laugh in the manager's face, they do nothing but roll their eyes and walk away. They have to pretend to be on the side of the customers, but the truth is - EVERYONE in the house is the ally of the server, and your enemy. Even those who can't admit to it.

That's why I tip. Because I've worked in that industry and because I know what shit they make, and I know what shit they put up with. I tip poorly for poor service - 10% is poor, 20% is good from the way I see things. But if I tip 10%, I explain that I'm dissatisfied, not just being a prick. Because I'll want to come back, and I'll want to make sure they have the opportunity, as a server, to get things right.

You have a right, if you can afford it, to restaurant food. You have a right, if you want, to stiff or fuck over your server. You should also expect retribution if you go back - guarantee retribution if it's the same server. To ignore this is at your own peril. Serving is, in fact, a high-skilled position by virtue of the negotiation skills learned.

Oh, and I didn't read the OP article yet. Curious if they control for quality of service, b/c I've seen black customers get shit for service compared to what my white ass gets - same person, same place.
 
furious. irate. livid.

yeah. all of those things.

*sigh* can't a person just be creative in how they write? Why must it be presumed that more words = more angry?
 
It kinda sucks that sometimes we're unable or unwilling to put ourselves in other people's shoes and see things from their perspective.

Typically myke, your longer posts are either substantive responses or angry rants. This is a little bit of both.
 
Bravo, Myke :applause:

I can only think of one instance where I didn't tip well. I was at this sushi place, didn't have my card with me, and brought less cash than I thought I needed. I think I only tipped 3.00 on a 50.00 bill. Felt legitimately horrible and cheap after that. I always carry my card with me after that.
 
[quote name='Sarang01']Pitti, you are a racist. You're what's called a "White Liberal Racist" or rather what I call them. You're the type of racist D.L. Hughley jokes about in his comedy. He has a bit where he mentions a guy saying "I'm not racist, I have two Black friends. If you're not racist then why are you counting them?". Nuff said.
This is kinda like how NPR is racist, nuff said with how they didn't back Tavis Smiley up by advertising for him and so forth, then wondered why he failed. I didn't even know Tavis was around until I heard him driving through somewhere else with NPR.
There's hidden racism around from upper crust or Liberal White people. This is just hidden and not as obvious. These are the people that have "Black friends" but complain quietly when their son or daughter brings a Black bf or gf home.
All this being said pitti, I think rumblebear is a joke account at times. His first comment in this thread was so ridiculous I couldn't help but laugh at it, much like DoK did I suspect.[/QUOTE]
Wow...posted what I was thinking before I could get even a chance...wtf.

Anywho...back on topic...

I think it's important to remember that these "shit jobs" are not low on skills. Not every one could do it because not every one does. Dealing with large amounts of people in long doses is an extremely difficult thing to do on a daily basis. Being able to cope isn't exactly as easy as it sounds. There seems to be a lot of disrespect in this thread for "low-skill" jobs and if someone's doing their best to do honorable work, it's something worth giving some recognition to instead of calling them a bunch of proles.

[quote name='mykevermin']Oh, and I didn't read the OP article yet. Curious if they control for quality of service, b/c I've seen black customers get shit for service compared to what my white ass gets - same person, same place.[/QUOTE]
This is also another legitimate point. If I see a hint of that bullshit sent my way, I automatically go down to 15% to the penny. In cases that service is REALLY bad from that kind of stuff, and it has been a few times, I'm not afraid to not tip at all. If black people are treated poorly in all facets of society, I'm would not be surprised if they don't tip as well as a group. Saying that they don't tip or tip less is racist. Saying that they don't tip or tip less because of generational disenfranchisement isn't. I somehow don't think that the OP is talking about the latter.

edit#2: The NPR article addresses racism and the the other one just wallows in it. I want to punch the site owner in the face.
 
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[quote name='Clak']But minimum wages isn't exactly living it up you know. I'd say they'd still want those tips.[/QUOTE]

Sure, but there's not nearly as much incentive to when you're pretty much totally dependent on tips.

Like I said, I tend to get worse service in non-tipping countries in Europe than I do here. And again, there are a lot more crappy cafe style places with no servers as more restaurants don't want to pay the higher wages and taxes on them. So you get fewer places to eat that you get waited on.

So I just think the way we do it is superior for customers in terms of putting the onus on the server to do a great job with each customer if they want to maximize their income. Upping salary and not mandating tips will lead to fewer places with servers and servers who have less incentive to go the extra mile and we end up with service in restaurants sucking like it does in retail stores.


[quote name='IRHari']It kinda sucks that sometimes we're unable or unwilling to put ourselves in other people's shoes and see things from their perspective.[/quote]

I think a lot of the ire comes from people who have (or had in the past) crappy lowing paying jobs that paid minimum wage or barely over who are bitter that servers get tips and thus make more than they did--and that servers feel entitled to tips etc.

Just my observation--and purely anecdotal. Most of the people I know who are anti-tipping are people stuck in other dead end, low paying jobs and bitter about it. I've very seldom met anyone that was a well off, well educated, middle class or above person who was anti-tipping aside from a few people who are just tight wads (which is the other main reason to be anti tipping--just being a cheapass and not caring about stiffing people).

And that's by no means a 100% equation as I had a lot of minimum wage (or less with under the table summer jobs on farms etc.) where I busted ass for next to nothing. But I'd prefer to break my back for lesser pay than wait tables again. That was my least favorite job of all time (and I've had some crappy ones) as it was both hard physically with being on your feet for 10-12 hour shifts lugging heavy trays of food and drinks around, and exhausting mentally from having to put up with the public with much more interaction than in retail jobs etc.

So like Myke, I'm sympathize with them and pretty much always tip and tip very well for service that's beyond the standard.
 
[quote name='IRHari']What if the food sucks? What if the service sucks? Is there a system you use to determine how much if any you tip?[/QUOTE]

If the food sucks, that isn't the waiter's fault. I tip on they service he/she gives me. Any food issues I take up with management.

I never have had any real issues with any waiter. I am decisive with my order and polite with any requests.
 
I'd never be vindictive because someone didn't tip me. The whole system is wrong on principle. I either chose the job or had to take it. That doesn't mean I'm going to bully people into living with my choice. If anything, I'll just do the bare minimum that's required but I won't fuck with people's food. That's just gross and further exacerbates all the stereotypes about restaurant workers. There's also the question of, would anyone who does these things NOT do them anymore if they suddenly got paid well? I'd venture to guess it would still be the same vindictive shite. I feel sorry for anyone who has to take a waiting job because times are tough, because aside from the cash tips, it's insanely balls. You're a servant with no guarantee you'll get paid other than by guilting/scaring people into doing it. You have to be on your feet the entire day and deal with the type of person who doesn't like the idea of having ready made food but instead "likes to be waited on".

If you voluntarily took the job because you thought "ooo cash tips", go fuck yourself.
 
[quote name='Sarang01']Pitti, you are a racist. You're what's called a "White Liberal Racist" or rather what I call them. You're the type of racist D.L. Hughley jokes about in his comedy. He has a bit where he mentions a guy saying "I'm not racist, I have two Black friends. If you're not racist then why are you counting them?". Nuff said.
This is kinda like how NPR is racist, nuff said with how they didn't back Tavis Smiley up by advertising for him and so forth, then wondered why he failed. I didn't even know Tavis was around until I heard him driving through somewhere else with NPR.
There's hidden racism around from upper crust or Liberal White people. This is just hidden and not as obvious. These are the people that have "Black friends" but complain quietly when their son or daughter brings a Black bf or gf home.
All this being said pitti, I think rumblebear is a joke account at times. His first comment in this thread was so ridiculous I couldn't help but laugh at it, much like DoK did I suspect.[/QUOTE]

I can appreciate your points about a sort of ingrained institutional racism in all of us, and if you think that I'm as racist as NPR is I guess I'll take that since I don't think they are at all. If you're referring to this as being racist then every single white person is racist because they receive preferential treatment. No matter what they do, what they think, or who they are, they are racist because they knowingly or unknowingly receive preferential treatment by the institutional racism theory.

If you're accusing me because I posted the NPR article and the survey I think you're confused. I don't adopt these as my own views, and I've continually said in this thread that the premise that black people tip less because they're black is bigoted and racist. What I've tried to do is discuss reasons for the tipping disparity, the biggest of which I think may be either confirmation bias or a self fulfilling prophecy which keeps getting mentioned and myke brought up.

[quote name='dohdough'] Saying that they don't tip or tip less is racist. Saying that they don't tip or tip less because of generational disenfranchisement isn't. I somehow don't think that the OP is talking about the latter.[/QUOTE]

Actually the latter is closest to my view, and what I've been trying to do is steer the thread this way, but it makes better internet to call someone racist.

I guess then I have to ask you Sarang....Do you think everyone is a little bit racist???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RovF1zsDoeM
 
[quote name='mykevermin']furious. irate. livid.

yeah. all of those things.

*sigh* can't a person just be creative in how they write? Why must it be presumed that more words = more angry?[/QUOTE]
While you did use 5 fucks, the ratio of words to fucks is pretty low. So yeah, dunno.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Sure, but there's not nearly as much incentive to when you're pretty much totally dependent on tips.

Like I said, I tend to get worse service in non-tipping countries in Europe than I do here. And again, there are a lot more crappy cafe style places with no servers as more restaurants don't want to pay the higher wages and taxes on them. So you get fewer places to eat that you get waited on.

So I just think the way we do it is superior for customers in terms of putting the onus on the server to do a great job with each customer if they want to maximize their income. Upping salary and not mandating tips will lead to fewer places with servers and servers who have less incentive to go the extra mile and we end up with service in restaurants sucking like it does in retail stores.




I think a lot of the ire comes from people who have (or had in the past) crappy lowing paying jobs that paid minimum wage or barely over who are bitter that servers get tips and thus make more than they did--and that servers feel entitled to tips etc.

Just my observation--and purely anecdotal. Most of the people I know who are anti-tipping are people stuck in other dead end, low paying jobs and bitter about it. I've very seldom met anyone that was a well off, well educated, middle class or above person who was anti-tipping aside from a few people who are just tight wads (which is the other main reason to be anti tipping--just being a cheapass and not caring about stiffing people).

And that's by no means a 100% equation as I had a lot of minimum wage (or less with under the table summer jobs on farms etc.) where I busted ass for next to nothing. But I'd prefer to break my back for lesser pay than wait tables again. That was my least favorite job of all time (and I've had some crappy ones) as it was both hard physically with being on your feet for 10-12 hour shifts lugging heavy trays of food and drinks around, and exhausting mentally from having to put up with the public with much more interaction than in retail jobs etc.

So like Myke, I'm sympathize with them and pretty much always tip and tip very well for service that's beyond the standard.[/QUOTE]
Tipping isn't done in Japan either I believe, I don't know how that effects service there, different culture and all.
 
[quote name='Clak']While you did use 5 fucks, the ratio of words to fucks is pretty low. So yeah, dunno.[/QUOTE]

I swear all the time, so it's not a indication that I'm upset. Having met Myke, I can vouch that he's the same on that front! :D

[quote name='Clak']Tipping isn't done in Japan either I believe, I don't know how that effects service there, different culture and all.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I can only vouch for a couple of places in Europe--and only Stockholm any time recently (last summer). Most places were cafe style with no wait staff. Just bussers and pick up your own food at the counter when they call you. And the places that had wait staff, the service just wasn't great generally. They just more or less took your order, brought your order and you had to flag them down if you needed a refill or wanted to order something else etc. Very different than here were waiters more often than not check in repeatedly etc.
 
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