Black generally tip less.

It benefits you for the hour you're at the restaurant. It benefits the owner/manager every time he balances the receipts.

Regarding my analogies, first, when I compare unskilled jobs that pay crappy wages, you say it isn't a fair comparison because it isn't about the wages, it's because the employees don't spend as much time working "for" the customer. Then, when I make a comparison between jobs where people work "for" the customer, you say it's an unfair comparison because the other employees make better wages. When I compare the exact same job, just in a different country, well, that's an unfair comparison because they have a different culture than us.

I'm happy with my job - and what I do very rarely puts me in contact with customers anymore (thankfully).
 
Meant to reply to this earlier...
[quote name='Mad39er']Having a flat delivery rate allows you to keep a driver on hand for deliveries, food costs aren't lowered in the least for a pizzaria. If you go in, order a pie off the menu, it costs the same as it would pre-delivery charge. There is no discount. There has never been a discount for eating in or carry out/take away.[/QUOTE]

You have no idea how business works, do you?
Let's say the business does away with the delivery charge and, instead, builds the cost of paying the drivers into the items on the menu. So, everything on the menu goes up, what - a quarter? Now, you get carry out. You order a pizza, two sodas, breadsticks and two small salads - your order is $1.50 more than before - and it doesn't matter that you're getting carry out - the cost to pay that delivery driver out of the general funds is a part of your ticket - period. Compared to the other method where you only pay the $2 delivery charge if you get delivery - if you carry-out, the cost to pay the delivery driver (that you didn't use) doesn't effect your ticket in any way.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']It benefits you for the hour you're at the restaurant. It benefits the owner/manager every time he balances the receipts.[/quote]

What's your point? When I eat out, I care about only 2 things. Getting good food and getting good service.

I don't give a fuck what the store is getting out of it. That's what I want as a customer, and I like the tipping system as I get good service more often than not. Unlike retail where poor to average service is the norm. And unlike dining out in Europe with their no tipping expected system last summer where it was either no service cafe style or poor service every where I ate.

Regarding my analogies, first, when I compare unskilled jobs that pay crappy wages, you say it isn't a fair comparison because it isn't about the wages, it's because the employees don't spend as much time working "for" the customer. Then, when I make a comparison between jobs where people work "for" the customer, you say it's an unfair comparison because the other employees make better wages. When I compare the exact same job, just in a different country, well, that's an unfair comparison because they have a different culture than us.
Click to expand...

None of your analogies work. Skilled labor gets paid more because they're skilled and thus aren't tip based. Those are career jobs etc. so raises and promotion are incentive.

Other crappy, low wage service jobs like retail simply made a decision at some point to pay minimum wage or over instead of paying less and having employees get tipped. And now that's just a social norm and hard to change. I'd be up for it, I already tend to shop at pricier places (i.e. Target instead of Wal-mart, Macy's instead of Sears or J.C. Penney's) as service is better. But that type of grand change probably just isn't going to happen.

Comparing to other countries doesn't always work due to different norms and cultures. Europe shows not having a tipping service leads to poor service and more cafes. But I'll acknowledge that tips aren't the sole reason for that as part of it is cultural work ethic illustrated by a common saying I've heard from several European friends "Europeans work to live, American's live to work."

Further making that point, service is great in many places in Asia despite tips not being the norm as the work ethic is much higher in those countries than probably anywhere in the world today. Hence why they kick the rest of the world's ass in education and will dominate the world economy by the end of our lifetimes if not before.

So there's just no use in making silly analogies. Our system is what it is because of the way it's developed over our countries history. You either like it and think it's a good system like me, or dislike it like you and others. No use in either side trying to make points with analogies. You simply like the tip system as you think it gets you better service like me, or your opposed to it and think they should just make a shitty wage like other serivce employees in different sectors like retail.
 
You are correct - ultimately, we're not going to change anyone's mind on tipping. At our age, it's something programmed into us between a combination of our raising and our work experience.

To link back to the original topic, however, the whole "Is not tipping (or, if you prefer, tipping less) evil?" is a slightly different argument. I've never once argued that you shouldn't tip (merely that there should be no obligation to tip). Tipping is a good thing. The argument I am making is that the lack of tipping is not a bad thing. Now, I'm sure there are those who disagree - and think it's okay for servers and such to pull crap on customers who are poor tippers. But I simply don't agree. Tipping is good, but not tipping isn't bad.

And to link back further to the original post, since it was clarified that black people do tip, they just tip less on average, is there anything to say that tipping "less" is considered a bad behavior. If Myke tips someone $20 on a $20 bill and I tip $10 on a $20 bill, am I being "cheap" or "bad" because I tipped less?

I've yet to see any evidence that showing statistics that black individuals tip "less" is somehow denigrating the black race or claiming that other races are superior. Maybe black people just have a better ability to budget their money.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Let's take this entire expected-tipping concept into other service industries. You take your car in to have it serviced. Oil changed, tires rotated, fluids checked/filled, brakes checked., etc. etc. Behind the desk is a sign that shows the services offered and the prices of these services. You get the full 40-point check up. An hour later, your car is ready. You pay the bill - as posted on the sign... But the guy who just spent an hour working on your car isn't happy with that. He wants some extra cash. Some vague amount of money given to him. Now, he can't be rude and just say "I want a $10 tip." - that would be impolite. You just have to guess how much is enough. And you better hope it's enough. Or next time you come in, he might cut your brake lines.

Or you get a loan at the bank... takes a couple of hours. Sign away, given all the fees and such... and now the banker wants some vague amount of money on top of all of that. Again - guess well, or he might accidentally move a decimal point somewhere and next thing you know, your credit is in the tank.

Did you tip the guy at the full service gas station? Whoops - hope your car runs on diesel...[/QUOTE]
All of those can happen at any given time and there are laws in place to protect the consumer. Why are you even presenting this extension when you thumped the federal law of topping up wages? Fail.

Tipping a banker = no. Tipping car mechanic = Sometimes. Especially if they go the extra step for me. Tipping the guy at the gas station? If he decides to wipe my windshield for me sure, if I'm in Jersey I'm not allowed to pump my own gas by law but any gas jockey will get tipped if they break out the sponge/squeege and do a window or two.

The only time I've ever had a tip forced on me in anything like the above examples was in Vegas. A guy asked for a tip flat out after giving me a bunch of cards, I asked for change, he said he didn't have any and my friend strongly suggested I not pursue getting change for a $20 from the guy. $20 for a life lesson is damned cheap.
 
[quote name='Mad39er']All of those can happen at any given time and there are laws in place to protect the consumer. Why are you even presenting this extension when you thumped the federal law of topping up wages? Fail.[/QUOTE]

I posted this based on the comments about serving staff doing stuff to food (which is typically illegal as well) and strongly implying that they endorse such activities.
 
Id never tip a mechanic because so many of them would rip you off without a second thought and do.

my roommate is a car mechanic and some of the stories he has told me are pretty bad in terms of ethics and honesty in the automotive mechanic industry. Hes honest but some people he has worked for have been very shady.

tldr version: many mechanics aren't trustworthy and prey on your ignorance, same goes with computer repair shops.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']
And to link back further to the original post, since it was clarified that black people do tip, they just tip less on average, is there anything to say that tipping "less" is considered a bad behavior. If Myke tips someone $20 on a $20 bill and I tip $10 on a $20 bill, am I being "cheap" or "bad" because I tipped less?.[/QUOTE]

Tipping less than the 20% norm for good service is being cheap. There's no obligation to tip above that. And it's perfectly acceptable to tip less than 20% (even not tipping at all) if the service was poor.

But it's not like someone is evil for not tipping for good service or tipping well under 20%. They're just cheap. It's a pet peeve of mine as I can't stand cheapskates personally. But it's not some huge moral flaw that makes someone an overall bad person. Just a cheapskate is all. And someone that doesn't have regard for social norms.
 
There's a difference between liking to shop around and find good deals on luxuries like games, movies etc., and being a cheapskate.

The first is being frugal and not overspending on luxuries, the second is being too tight with money and stiffing others by things like under tipping, not tipping at all, never donating to charitable causes even though you have the money to easily do so, being an ass and bitching all night when out with friends as the places people want to go are "too expensive" when you make as much or more than everyone else in the group etc. I can't stand that type of stuff. People can do what they want with their money of course, but I have no use for those kind of tightwads in my circle of friends and I stop inviting people out if they don't tip, or bitch all night about the prices instead of just not coming in the first place when they already knew where we were going.

That said, I joined this site back in college (well lurked, didn't start posting until grad school) and I was cheap by necessity back then as I didn't make much money. So I needed deals if I was going to buy any games. But even then I tipped 20% or more if I ate out and got good service. I just didn't eat out very often as I couldn't really afford it until I was into the Ph D program and making a better salary working on research grants.

Now I don't spend nearly as much time looking for deals as I make decent wage finally, and don't play games all that much either. Which is why I mainly post in the Offtopic and Vs. forums these days. So I'm not really a cheapass nor much of a gamer anymore!
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114'] And someone that doesn't have regard for social norms.[/QUOTE]

I assume you realize that this isn't a necessarily negative thing, right?
 
It's usually a negative. About the only time it's not is if we're talking social norms that promote discrimination and other human's rights violations were people should be working to change norms and promote equality etc.

But otherwise most social norms are things that keep society rolling along relatively smoothly (minimize conflicts) and should be adhered to.
 
dmaul dropping a F bomb? Well I never....I know where to not send my unborn kids to college. For shame.......foooooorrrrrrrr shaaaaaaaammmmmmeeee.


What are we talking about again?
 
I swear like a sailor, pretty common among professors. I generally avoid it in the classroom though! That whole social norms thing again! :D Swear like a sailor around friends and family, very seldom in professional settings, and relatively rarely in mixed company where you may offend someone.
 
I remember this History professor I had would drop "shit" every now and then and look shocked when he did, was hard not to die laughing at that look. Good times...
 
Yeah, I seldom drop more than a damn, hell or ass in lecture. I did drop an f-bomb swearing at the document camera giving me problems earlier in the semester though.
 
[quote name='pittpizza']I got stiffed by a caucasian tonight. Unfuckinbelievable.[/QUOTE]
My friends wife got stiffed by a black guy. Marriage over...
 
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