CAGcast #132: Mediocrely Average

[quote name='FriskyTanuki']Cheapy watches Real World and other reality shows on MTV and VH1, so he doesn't really have any right to criticize what others watch.[/quote]

like tila tequila...*shudders*

btw, i loved the political discussion.
 
I should also add that the reason not all 58 Rock Band songs are not transferable to RB2 is because they have to relicense all songs in order to get them on more than one piece of media (RB1 AND future game use). This also explains the $5 fee.

While Enter Sandman, Run To The Hills, and Paranoid may have been easy to license in RB1, Guitar Hero may have put a stop to that now. Metallica is supposedly working with Activision on their own game and Ozzy Osbourne of Black Sabbath is a main character in Guitar Hero World Tour, possibly making his songs an exclusive. Also, Iron Maiden isn't very pleased about others using their music.
 
Wombat was a little fiesty this week but that always adds a little something to the show. For me, when a game isn't good and it's not bad, I say it's alright, decent, ok. I don't need to get all hardcore into the details. It's just an ok game.

No psp love? Do you guys still use it? You always mention PSP news but it seems like it's been forever since you talked about playing actual games.
 
were you guys grumpy this week? you thought everything sucked, did you notice that?

...i'm not disagreeing with you...

but still...

hey wombat---AVERAGE AVERAGE AVERAGE
 
I usually don't mind Wombat. I rather think he helps the show. But the whole average/mediocre discussion was too much. Talk about splitting hairs. Maybe next show he can tell us what is is.

Nothing to play on the Wii. Cheapie drones about Tiger Woods on the 360. Cheapie doesn't realize that Tiger Woods has sold best on the Wii the past 2 years. Wii is the Rodney Dangerfield of consoles.
 
Wow. All these posts about the meaning of the word average? How about I talk about something else?

Cheapy was absolutely correct about having a press day for E3 and having public day. Just like TGS. They could make a killing. The city of LA would love it. The big news earlier this year was several developers and publishers were dropping out of the ESA with speculation that it was over the fees members had to pay to join.

If ESA can make some money from a public E3, they could possibly lower those fees. I had no idea what Wombat was talking about on that subject, but I get the feeling you two weren't on the same page.

Cheapy was also right about the idiots who went crazy over the Socom beta. If only Zipper could just tell those people to fuck off. The developers are working 70-80 hours a week, just receive death threats? Ungrateful little shits.
 
Great show, guys!

What about instead of calling the middle "average" or "mediocre", why not call it "generic"? That would seem to cover the bases pretty well as it isn't as damning as "mediocre" is.


The only points of contention I had with the show was calling Tecmo a crappy company, or something to that effect. Tecmo's "Team Ninja" studio has made some of the best action games of this generation and the last with Ninja Gaiden and it's sequel Ninja Gaiden II. Not to mention the Dead or Alive fighting games which all have a high Metacritic average(in the mid 80's).


Thank you very much for reading my question on-air.

- BlueSwim
 
We should look at the use of average from the other side. Use of average should encourage users to give ratings of a 1 and 2 for lesser games.

Also wombat you should join a cag warhawk night and you'll hear people talking.
 
[quote name='trip1eX']I usually don't mind Wombat. I rather think he helps the show. But the whole average/mediocre discussion was too much. Talk about splitting hairs. Maybe next show he can tell us what is is.

Nothing to play on the Wii. Cheapie drones about Tiger Woods on the 360. Cheapie doesn't realize that Tiger Woods has sold best on the Wii the past 2 years. Wii is the Rodney Dangerfield of consoles.[/quote]

Agreed on above, semantics have no place in the show. Wombat, step it up a little and realize it's a radio show, not a Wombrant. Good Wombat.

And I was hoping you guys would pick up Tiger woods 09 on Wii. It reviewed well (for a Wii game) and supposedly has some reasonable semblance of motion tracking for golf swing. I'd love to hear what you both have to say about it.

It's too bad you guys are such Wii dislikers (or ambivalenters). I admit, I never play my Wii, but it's the system I could use the most input towards game purchases for. Who am I kidding, I haven't put in more than 5 minutes with any of the last 5 games I've bought for the system. Still hoping to get Blastworks for $10, I don't know why.
 
Good show, guys! Nice to have you both back in the saddle. Wombat was a bit feisty, I think he really missed Cheapy. ;)

I'll probably not get to catch next week's episode, because I'm in the process of moving and won't have internet at home again until the 19th, but glad to see you guys are "back to normal."

Oh, and Wombat, just so you know, I don't look like my avatar. I assure you I'm not a stuffed monkey.

/tk
 
[quote name='terpkristin']

Oh, and Wombat, just so you know, I don't look like my avatar. I assure you I'm not a stuffed monkey.

/tk[/QUOTE]

sure your not
 
Great show, dudes!

...I must say, I crack up anytime I hear Nelson from Achievement Junkies referred to as "Minor Nelson."
 
I think what Wombat was saying could be illustrated as such:

In school, kids can score 0 to 100. So you'd think the average would be 50. It's not.

They have A,B,C,D, & F as grades. C is generally thought of as 'average' with B being 'above average' and A being 'great'. C is generally in the realm of the 70s. It's an average of the students' grades, not an average the min/max grades.

Further, I think with grade inflation (and with parents bitching and the general dumbing down so that no one feels bad) that if you were to really look at the grades in your average school (yep - tossed that one in just to stir the pot) that most kids probably average out around a B (in the 80s). Really, most kids, in school, at least, should average out around a C - I don't think that's the case. Everyone thinks their child is special and thus there's various pressures put on the teachers to bump the grades.

You can basically apply the same principals to gaming as it is now.

With a simple change to 'mediocre' I know, "Oh, I probably wouldn't play that game - I mean maybe if I were drunk and bored, but in my day-to-day life, no - it's not going to do it for me." When you toss in average I do think, "Average compared to what?"

It's a small but important difference.
 
[quote name='daphatty']Downloading now. iTunes FTW!

Edit: Here are some photos I took of Cheapy and his fanbase at the PAX discussion panel. Mrs. Cheapy and I had a good laugh at Cheapy's celeb status. I just wish I had a photo of the guy who asked for Cheapy's autograph!
[/quote]
Uhmm... that was me, you got me on picture 6 but just my hands and a part of my head, see me testing out the Sharpie on the card?

Oh, and it was okaay....

No D, ha.

FILE0006-1.jpg


Also, I was wondering if you were daphatty after hearing the CAGcast, you were standing by Cheapy when I first came over, and noticed that you were talking to Mrs. Cheapy over the chair, you got front row and stuff. Now I can put one and one together. Sorry for being so awkward when asking the question, blarg. ;_;
 
[quote name='Wombat']But that my whole point, the game companies are paying for a service, it is up to them if they feel that they are getting their money's worth. If not then by all means take your money elsewhere, but you can't ask for money back[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying companies should ask for money back. I'm suggesting the ESA should take some of the proceeds earned from public ticket sales to help offset the cost to its members. The ESA needs to prove that they are a viable asset to a game company's portfolio. Otherwise, the ESA will become extinct just like E3.

E3 is just a part of the service.
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that you have to pay more for in order to participate in.


E3 is not held for companies to promote themselves
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Seriously? I mean, really? Come on Wombat. I expect you to know your game industry history. E3 was a spin off convention that originated at CES. It's sole purpose was indeed to promote video games to retailers and media outlets.

but if they feel they are spending too much then maybe thier booths should have less neon to counter act the booth fees.
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I agree with you on this point. Although, it wouldn't be E3 without all the glitz and glamour. ;)

And how much does the ESA have to pay for city permits, planning, staff, the center itself, etc.
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Zero. Zilch. Nada. All of that cost is being passed on to the member companies. And we have now come full circle.
 
[quote name='daphatty']

Seriously? I mean, really? Come on Wombat. I expect you to know your game industry history. E3 was a spin off convention that originated at CES. It's sole purpose was indeed to promote video games to retailers and media outlets.

Zero. Zilch. Nada. All of that cost is being passed on to the member companies. And we have now come full circle.[/QUOTE]

The 'not" was a typo, i started out writing a different sentence. Exactly, ESA members are paying for E3, without the fees the ESA couldn't afford it. You are right it is a vicious circle. And is this all because I called you black.
 
whoo! great show! I was on the bus and i busted out laughing when wombat said "that's a pretty good impression" to cheapyd's batman, and then cheapy did that fantastic grunt of "YEAH". hilarious
 
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I don't hardly ever buy used games unless I can't find them new anywhere. The difference in price between a used game and a new game is usually negligible plus you get to support the developers. I also never trade in games to Gamestop or any other place. Good games I keep and the others I post up on Goozex.

I shop at Gamestop only because it's convenient. My noob and I can walk to the local Gamestop and hang out for a bit. Also, I only reserve games if there is a good pre-order bonus. Early beta access for example is a great way to try out a basically finished game with little or no risk.
 
[quote name='Wombat']The 'not" was a typo, i started out writing a different sentence. Exactly, ESA members are paying for E3, without the fees the ESA couldn't afford it. You are right it is a vicious circle. And is this all because I called you black.[/QUOTE]

Haha! Not at all. We just hold you to a higher standard. Besides, Cheapy called me Dominican. To any other Puertorican, which is what I really am, thems would be fightin words! ;)
 
Wombat and Cheapy, your choice for President: Average!!!!!! or mediocre, or par, or meh.

You two are Pinkos to the core! ;>

Great show guys. Cheapy, any whale sightings while on the cruise? Other than the fatties you mentioned on the ships deck.
 
I was hoping someone else had a statistics class and posted this already, because I really didn't want to bother. There are many different ways to find the "average", depending on what you are wanting out of the data. These concepts are called, Mean, Median and Mode.

---copied from http://www.purplemath.com/modules/meanmode.htm----

The "mean" is the "average" you're used to, where you add up all the numbers and then divide by the number of numbers. The "median" is the "middle" value in the list of numbers. To find the median, your numbers have to be listed in numerical order, so you may have to rewrite your list first. The "mode" is the value that occurs most often. If no number is repeated, then there is no mode for the list.

--------

So with scores in videogames, the most common score(some would call "average" is the "mode or modal" score. Adding up all the scores and diving by the number of games, would be the "mean" and the absolute middle score in a list would be the "median". So Wombat, there are many different ways of finding the "average" game.

Either way, I think games should be listed using the standard grading system of A, B, C, D, and F.
 
The whole used games argument thing is still very weird to me. I will be opening a Play N Trade Videogames store later this year, competitor to Gamestop. The used games business is basically the same but I honestly don't see why publishers hate on it. There is a cycle to the way the business works right now.

Stores like mine and Gamestop NEED to sell new games to sell used games. That is why they push pre-orders. The reason is that it is more likely that you may trade that title into the store thus allowing them to eventually sell it used. There would be no other retail location that will strive to sell a pre-order like these stores do. While you can pre-order games at some big box stores, typically they are just cards with box art.

The reasoning is that for publishers, if someone is buying a used game they are not buying a new game. Truth is that if you are buying a new game, you are not buying it from the publisher anyway, the store is. In addition, most of the time after a few months you just don't buy any new games because they are out of cycle. It is why if you go to a big box store, while they may have a ton of titles, it is quantity they have, not the number of different titles. They may have 20 copies of Madden but if you count the number of different titles for each system. You may get 15 for each console at Best Buy... at a used game store you have over 50 because of those older games.

The restricting of selling of new product only hurts the publishers and consumers. It is like Sony then telling you that you can't sell your Blu-Ray on ebay... because someone may want to buy it new. It is tough luck. Depending where you go, you can really get better deals with a used title and not only that sometimes a game gets fandom with used game sales. These are titles that don't sell huge new and may not take off till down the road. Its hard to find a new copy of Beyond Good and Evil :p

I understand Wombat's logic with thinking that they can just sell the titles at non used places, but then again look and see how pre-orders help the industry and if you take that market away, they will sell far less. If they also hated Gamestop so bad, then they wouldn't be partners with select games and offering bonuses.

But for the game review stuff... I don't know if it is possible but what if you had something where you can see where all game scores rate. So you can have your 5 star system but what does someone think is a 5 star game compared to a 4 star game? That context can really help people know the difference. Like what games do you consider for each section to be a awful, bad, fair, good, great game? Another idea would just call the middle score "Wombat" and have his picture there. Everyone would know what that means and would be funny to see a "Wombat" score on metacritic.
 
I know it's not the focus of this site, but I just want to say how refreshing it was to listen to people (i.e. you two guys) give there political views and not sound like a bunch of rabid, elitist pricks. While I'm not 100% in agreement with the views, I felt Cheapy gave solid reasoning for his choice and didn't make any cynical or pointless remarks about the person he was not voting for. I'm tired of all the pig-headedness that comes from either side of the political spectrum, and I thought you guys gave respectful opinions regarding the candidates and issues.

I will disagree with Cheapy on one thing: I totally want that Pro Evolution Soccer 360 controller. I play a lot of games using the D-Pad. I did purchase the Hori Pad EX Turbo, and while the D-pad is excellent, everything else about it is mediocre (and yes, I had to correct myself from using "average" ;)).
 
Wombat launched into his "average" tirade without doing the homework; what if the score of Mercs 2 actually IS the statistical average of all games? That would blow my mind. Get to work, nerds!
 
In the show notes you say the outro is an Atari commercial. It's actually for the Intellivision where you get a 13" TV for $79 when you buy the system.
 
I was thinking that even if all major publishers decided to not supply Gamestop with product, I feel Gamestop would still be he number 1 place to get USED games. People who want the new games on release day will buy them at Best Buy etc. and then simply sell them to Gamestop when they are done and then use the credit to buy used games they may have missed. Then all of us cheap gamers can go to Gamestop and buy the new game just traded in. I will concede Gamestop will lose some money from new game sales, but not as much as they would lose from no longer selling used games. This is what I believe to be true if Gamestop does indeed make most of their money from the selling of used games.
 
I was happy to see the return of Cheapy. Great show.

I dig the batman impersonation quite a bit. There must be some way to work it into the show on a regular basis.

edit: Obviously, I referring to the Cheapy impersonation...
 
Another great show full of controversy. I don't know which was more controversial the fact that Wombat doesn't have moderator access or Wombat's overthe top assualt on the term average.

On the topic Wombat should be reminded that Average isn't a mathematically discrete equation. The equation he describes is best called a 'mean'. I'm sure we all remember learning about Mean, Median, Mode and Range in school. Average is a less specific synonym. That's why there's a difference between an 'arithmetic average' and the normal usage of the word 'average'. That said, while I completely disagree with his stance on the word average, I fully support his Advocacy for Mediocrity. I'm all for the reduction of any trace of ambiguity.

Wombat is right. Madden would sell just as many copies if EA decided to cut out GameStop distribution. Sure Gamestop would still get their used copies but most people would be able to buy the game just as easily at Target, BestBuy, Circuit City and all the other stores. CheapyD you say that it's so far off that a publisher alienating GameStop is such a far fetched concept and yet that's almost exactly what the guy from EA said. He used the same car model that GameStop always tried to use.
Gamestop says: Imagine how the new car market would fair if Toyota didn't let you sell your old car
EA says: Imagine how Toyota would feel is their car dealer partners tried to push you towards a used car that's 'guaranteed to work'. You can bet that you wouldn't be a partner with Toyota anymore.
 
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Wombat, I normally see you as extremely level-headed and reasonable, but this "average" issue of your's is weird to me. It's not that I don't understand where you are coming from, it's just that the whole principle is too grounded in semantics. (Which seems very unlike you) I'm sure you're well-aware of the widely-accepted definition, and it's not like people get the two definitions mixed up very often. This is the English language afterall, there's a lot of ambiguity that's much worse than this.


I normally wouldn't comment on something as minor as this, but this is probably one of the very few times I disagreed with Wombat on something, you just don't seem like the sort of person who would take something so petty so seriously. Regardless, Wombat still rules.
 
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