Fans boycotting Left4Dead 2

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http://pc.ign.com/articles/992/992283p1.html

[quote name='IGN']UK, June 8, 2009 - Fans of 2008 first-person smash Left 4 Dead have reacted strongly to last week's news of a sequel, calling for a boycott to the new game in response to Valve's perceived lack of commitment to the original game.

At the time of writing some 15,000 fans have registered their disdain on a Steam Community Group, (thanks, videogaming24/7) asking that 'Left 4 Dead 2 not be released as a stand-alone, full-priced sequel but as either a free update to Left 4 Dead or an expansion with full compatibility with basic Left 4 Dead owners.'

The news of a sequel for Left 4 Dead goes against Valve's typical practice, wherein titles are often in gestation for long periods and given extensive post-release support.

Valve's VP of Marketing Doug Lombardi reacted to the news in an interview late last week, telling RockPaperShotgun, 'There's more content coming for Left 4 Dead in the fairly near term, that I think will sort of add to this picture and hopefully change some people's opinions of what's happening right now.'

Left 4 Dead was one of 2008's highlights, earning a 9.2 when reviewed back in November. The sequel relocates the action to the Deep South, as well as adding frying pans and chainsaws into the mix - which all sounds like an awful lot of fun. [/QUOTE]

Personally, I have no problem with Valve selling L4D2 simply because I enjoyed L4D enough to know that I got my money's worth out of it. But because both Mills Lane and I like a good clean fight, I thought I'd post it here to get a good debate going.

Here is the boycott group on steam. Over 17,000 members already:
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/L4D2boycott?action=join
 
So let's recap:

Valve takes a long time to produce games,people bitch.
Valve releases a quick sequel to one of its most popular releases,people bitch.

"Gamers" are such fucking Primadonnas. They always want a ton a free stuff, even though for their $50 they got HUNDREDS of hours of entertainment.
 
i'm still buying L4D2. L4D was a great a game and this one looks even better. I really dont understand all the hurt feelings over this.
 
Oh, I thought the boycott was going to be about another "zombie" game that gives you an excuse to slay black people en masse. fucking New Orleans? I am from Texas and I know if my friend from Rochester saw me killing "zombies" in Louisiana all of his secessionist fears would be confirmed.

In defense of Valve's choice of setting, I do believe that for a while New Orleans easily had a post-apocalyptic thing going on without any sort of zombie holocaust. I'm not sure that makes it PC.
 
I got the Left 4 Dead Game of the Year edition two days before they announced L4D2. Just unloaded it on Goozex (phew!).
 
If, as an existing owner of Left 4 Dead, if I had to pay more for the additional content on the GotY edition, I'd be a little miffed. But I dont.


I'm trying to understand why any one is thinking they're entitled to a free copy of L4D2 when it comes out. But I dont.
 
I have NO problem with L4D 2 (in fact it is my most anticipated game of 09), but I will be kinda pissed if I have to launch L4D1 to play those maps. If they made it where Valve sees you owns L4D1 and has the ability to play LFD1 maps on LFD2, I would be happy.
 
I'm in that Steam Group thanks to this article bringing it to my attention.

Before you bitch at me, read all the things in that steam group. I don't expect it to be free, I expect to get what I payed for which is consistent content additions. And with this coming out, it fucks over the people who bought the game on that hope. It also splits the community like Lost Planet did. All I'm asking for is make it heavily discounted to those who already own L4D.

This also goes against everything Valve has ever done which blows my mind. I didn't expect L4D to become the next Madden or Call of Duty.
 
Should it be free? No. There's a lot of work that seems to be going into it. I'm just curious as to how feasible an expansion pack version would be. Considering how closely the two are being released, I can't imagine there being any system overhauls. As a PC gamer, it just seems odd that it's a standalone.
 
It is not different enough to warrant a new and separate game (especially for $60). When this is released will there only be 2 multiplayer maps as well?

This honestly seems like it would work best as a reasonably priced expansion so you do not lose the original maps/characters. If it has 4 new maps/new melee weapons/etc - I would easily pay $20 for it.
 
Now that I think of it they kinda backed themselves into a hole, I mean unlike a TF2 map which is just a map they have to make 4 maps with the AI director, add in Versus and survival. That's a ton of more work than just a map.

I think they wont throw free content out just because of the work involved. I also believe they are calling it L4D 2 because the content is probably too big as x-box live downloads and they can't really do expansions on the 360 like a PC can.

I think if there was no 360 version then Valve would probably make it cheaper but because they can charge $60 on it for the 360 and make money, well... sigh.
 
Funny. No one b*tches when the annual Madden Train shows up at the station. It ends up being a top selling game with its yearly update. Now EA is doing the same thing w/L4d and suddenly it is a federal case ?

Sheesh. Why would anyone be surprised ?
 
[quote name='help1']Can you edit the OP? These people boycotting the game aren't "fans."[/QUOTE]


Probably the best thing I've read ^^^

I'd be all over sequels, means the game is still going, hopefully better priced, but it's good news that they are still continuing it.

If only they would release an SDK...
 
These boycotters are hilarious. While they make several valid points in their 'mission statement' (namely worried the community will be either split or the first game will become obsolete when 2 hits), they utterly fail when they even suggest the possibility of the L4D2 content being free. Not to mention the fact that the game doesn't have a lot of info out on it yet. It should really be more a list of concerns or whatnot instead of a boycott based on assumptions that may or may not be true.
 
If I had a nickel for every time a publisher or developer made claims about their games that they simply could not muster (release dates, content, add-ons, sequels, translations, bug fixes, customer support, etc.) since the days of the Atari 2600 I could buy L4D2 about five times over (assuming $59.99 MSRP).

If I were to base it solely on Molyneux and Working Designs, I could probably buy a copy from those nickels alone.

But such is life. Expectations are dashed every day. It's not fun but, at least in this case, it certainly isn't the end of the world.
 
[quote name='fcw3']Funny. No one b*tches when the annual Madden Train shows up at the station. It ends up being a top selling game with its yearly update. Now EA is doing the same thing w/L4d and suddenly it is a federal case ?

Sheesh. Why would anyone be surprised ?[/QUOTE]
Valve is an independent company and EA doesn't have any influence over them, they are just their retail distribution partner.

I think most people are mad because Gabe Newell said that they would go the TF2 lots of free content route with Left 4 Dead and they didn't really do that. Though apparently they are going to announce new content for L4D soon.

I imagine that Valve will be cool and give people who already have Left 4 Dead on their Steam account a discount on L4D2.
 
[quote name='SynGamer']I got the Left 4 Dead Game of the Year edition two days before they announced L4D2. Just unloaded it on Goozex (phew!).[/QUOTE]

lolwut?
 
[quote name='Ryukahn'] It should really be more a list of concerns or whatnot instead of a boycott based on assumptions that may or may not be true.[/QUOTE]

A Left4Dead2 Concerns List just doesn't have the oomph to get your point across.

Threaten a boycott and then even the corporate suits might have to take a look at the community complaints for fear of losing da munie$.
 
[quote name='Richard Longfellow']Good Lord college kids have too much spare time.[/QUOTE]
Yeah it really does take a long time to make or join a Steam group.
 
[quote name='Frogurt.man']A Left4Dead2 Concerns List just doesn't have the oomph to get your point across.

Threaten a boycott and then even the corporate suits might have to take a look at the community complaints for fear of losing da munie$.[/QUOTE]

Valve seems to be one of the few companies that really listens to their fans. I have a feeling they understand what people are feeling and will do something about it.
 
What a lot of people seem to be missing in this thread is:

A) This isn't just any company, this is Valve. You know, those people who still update games made in 2004?
B) Not everyone expects it to be free, only the really loud obnoxious people. Again, read the statements in the steam group.
C) They said they would continue to support it like TF2 and to the guy who said lots of developers don't fulfill promises, refer to point A.

@Ryu, for a game that was just announced they've shown ~2 levels, a bunch of new weapons, all of the synopsis, 1 of the 3 new SI, talked about pretty much all the additions and design goals (I could go on but I won't) That's a hell of a lot more than most people release. Not to mention they made all this in ~9 months, they probably don't have much more to announce, only to show.
 
Yeah, I didn't by L4D at launch since the demo didn't impress me and I knew the content in the game was limited. Then the price droped down to 30 bucks durring a sale and I said "that's a good, price plus Valve always puts out tons of extra stuff with their games post release".

Well that doesn't look like its the case any more. So I can see why people are mad.

All I know is I won't be buying L4D2 for anything more then 10 bucks. It looks like more of the same, and don't have any clue how they plan on having the game be as sucessful as the first one with all the negative buzz. Just like DRM big companies don't have a clue what the fans want untill they start really bitching. I'm glad they are all bitching.
 
[quote name='Hydro2Oxide']What a lot of people seem to be missing in this thread is:

A) This isn't just any company, this is Valve. You know, those people who still update games made in 2004?
B) Not everyone expects it to be free, only the really loud obnoxious people. Again, read the statements in the steam group.
C) They said they would continue to support it like TF2 and to the guy who said lots of developers don't fulfill promises, refer to point A.[/QUOTE]

A) They've said they will keep updating L4D, yet people are still complaining. Do they have a magic ball that tells them they won't?
B) I read the statements in the steam group and they have plain as day that they expect it all to either be free or at least cheaper than $50.
C) Again, why do people assume that they won't support it?


[quote name='Hydro2Oxide']@Ryu, for a game that was just announced they've shown ~2 levels, a bunch of new weapons, all of the synopsis, 1 of the 3 new SI, talked about pretty much all the additions and design goals (I could go on but I won't) That's a hell of a lot more than most people release. Not to mention they made all this in ~9 months, they probably don't have much more to announce, only to show.[/QUOTE]

If you could go on, then it sounds like there is a lot of content coming in L4D2, thus I don't see what the problem is. My statement about assuming things had to do with their main gripe that the community is going to suffer in L4D without any knowledge about any possible link between the 2 games to prevent this from happening and also that they won't do any updates for L4D when they have no idea if they will or not. I was not referring to the new content at all. The preview I read on IGN said they were considering putting all of the content from L4D on the L4D2 disc, which makes me believe they are trying to keep the community together. I'm more interested in how that is going to work, if it makes it in, more than anything else at this point.
 
Reality's Fringe;5942177]So let's recap: Valve takes a long time to produce games said:
This. I have no idea how many hours L4D 1 sucked in of my life, but it's too many. I will hate to see how many 2 will suck up. I more than got my moneys worth, hell, I bought it on PC and 360 I got so much out of it, and I don't regret either, even with the sequel.
Click to expand...
 
I Just wonder how people would react if each of the five new scenarios in L4D2 were released sepreatly for $10 each as DLC for L4D1. Would we still be complaining on how Valve is no longer being Valve or would we applaud that they're continuing to support their games through such means?
 
[quote name='help1']Can you edit the OP? These people boycotting the game aren't "fans."[/QUOTE]

Don't have to be a fan to realize how stupid it is when Valve personally said they were going to expand the first game, only to come out and release an entirely new game. Like say compared to Team Fortress 2, which gets free updates up to this day after its release. Instead they are telling people to fork over even more cash for minor upgrades.

Yeah, guess only a fan would be stupid enough not to see this.
 
[quote name='dsrtstorm']Don't have to be a fan to realize how stupid it is when Valve personally said they were going to expand the first game, only to come out and release an entirely new game. Like say compared to Team Fortress 2, which gets free updates up to this day after its release. Instead they are telling people to fork over even more cash for minor upgrades.

Yeah, guess only a fan would be stupid enough not to see this.[/QUOTE]


I'm sorry but all the "updates" to TF2 are mainly balances and fixes... not content.

L4D2 will come with content. That's why it's a sequel and not a free DLC or even expansion.

Would love it to be a standalone expansion at best... give us a discount for being owners of the first.

Really I won't get this till 50% off anyways... when they have a sale. Why wouldn't anyone else???
 
[quote name='xycury']I'm sorry but all the "updates" to TF2 are mainly balances and fixes... not content.
[/QUOTE]

Im sorry, but you are 100% wrong on this. Initially they were minor tweaks, but they've added maps, class upgrades and achievements. That's content, no matter how you swing it.
 
[quote name='dyeknom']Im sorry, but you are 100% wrong on this. Initially they were minor tweaks, but they've added maps, class upgrades and achievements. That's content, no matter how you swing it.[/QUOTE]

Don't forget three new game modes, 100's of extra dialogue lines, friggin' HATS!

This is why I'm complaining about L4D2. The free updates TF2 have gotten seem about on par (Maybe a bit less) of what L4D2 is getting, on top of the fact that I'll have spent $100 dollars on L4D and 10 on TF2 (Orange Box)

I'm not slapping Valve on the wrist for raising expectations due to TF2, it's mostly the fact that TF2 is considerably cheaper than L4D and that there is no new engine in L4D2.
 
Reality's Fringe;5942177]So let's recap:Valve takes a long time to produce games said:
:applause: I'd rather have them bring out a sequel every year or so and have the choice not to buy it instead of waiting 3-5 years for something.

[quote name='PhrostByte']Looks like I'm the only one who didn't like Left 4 Dead.
Click to expand...

Its the only game that ever gave me motion sickeness. Couldn't play it for more than a few minutes.
 
ok so here is why I'm pissed about the L4D2 treatment. We just recently got all 4 boards for vs. and they had just released the GOTY edition. I feel kinda cheated even tho I got my copy of L4d pretty early on. I mean give L4d some more DLC. That's really my biggest issue with this. I mean one year later and we have a sequal to a game that was just recently completed. I will also say that I'll more then likly end up picking up l4d2 but not until it's around the $20 mark.
 
[quote name='Hydro2Oxide']Don't forget three new game modes, 100's of extra dialogue lines, friggin' HATS!

This is why I'm complaining about L4D2. The free updates TF2 have gotten seem about on par (Maybe a bit less) of what L4D2 is getting, on top of the fact that I'll have spent $100 dollars on L4D and 10 on TF2 (Orange Box)

I'm not slapping Valve on the wrist for raising expectations due to TF2, it's mostly the fact that TF2 is considerably cheaper than L4D and that there is no new engine in L4D2.[/QUOTE]

I never thought L4D was anything special, anyway. I also hate TF2, but there's no denying it that TF2's free updates are extremely impressive. L4D2 early impressions appear to be a clear case of the cash-ins. It's not done, so there is probably plenty of new things that merit a new game, but nobody will find out until some real hands-on test runs. I personally felt that L4D never really deserved the 50-60$ price tag that it received, either.... but that's just me.
 
Somebody call the Waaahhmbulance! I'll be playing L4D2 and having fun thanks! Maybe not at launch... but after the first price drop? Sign me up!
 
[quote name='ToadallyAwesome']It is not different enough to warrant a new and separate game (especially for $60).[/QUOTE]So don't buy it till its cheap enough for you to justify the purchase, or dont buy it at all.

[quote name='TC']:applause: I'd rather have them bring out a sequel every year or so and have the choice not to buy it instead of waiting 3-5 years for something.

Its the only game that ever gave me motion sickeness. Couldn't play it for more than a few minutes.[/QUOTE]If it gives you motion sickness and you can't play it, why would you be interested in sequals?
 
[quote name='dyeknom']Im sorry, but you are 100% wrong on this. Initially they were minor tweaks, but they've added maps, class upgrades and achievements. That's content, no matter how you swing it.[/QUOTE]

They also released an SDK for TF2... have they done that for L4D?

Maps are free, not content specific, because of the SDK.

Class upgrades they could have charged for, but didn't, still, a minor upgrade.

And achivements?!? You gotta be friggin kidding....


I would guess that the AI Director is nothing then? I'd assume that Vavle had already tried to see if they could roll this out? couldn't so scraped it for L4D2?

Benefit of the doubt would be helpful.... it's not even out yet, nor near any release of notes by Vavle themselves.

I would cry foul for no SDK, but maybe it won't work for L4D2 which will be stupid.

Plus what's the argument here...people paid $50, didn't think they got $50 worth, bitch and moan because Valve is making another $50 product.

That little piggy went whaa whaa whaa all the way home.

Personally I wanted L4D, but waited till it dropped to $25, it was easly worth that, and the release of the rest of the campaings vs, and survival mode completes it, now only if they can get an SDK, we'd be all set.


Final Thought... or question then thought: Are we seeing this on the console side or PC? It might be the fact that there is a console side that they could be releasing a sequel. Far easier to incorporate new things to a solid medium. I don't own one so I will stop there, but maybe we'd see a different path for L4D2 if the console version did not exist.
 
I can understand the outrage, the game isn't even a year old they are planning a full price sequel. I haven't played L4D but it seems like there is still plenty of value to be had that wont be realized if they release on early squeal. I agree they should release a super update for $20-$40 dollars.
 
[quote name='Hydro2Oxide']I'm in that Steam Group thanks to this article bringing it to my attention.

Before you bitch at me, read all the things in that steam group. I don't expect it to be free, I expect to get what I payed for which is consistent content additions. And with this coming out, it fucks over the people who bought the game on that hope. It also splits the community like Lost Planet did. All I'm asking for is make it heavily discounted to those who already own L4D.

This also goes against everything Valve has ever done which blows my mind. I didn't expect L4D to become the next Madden or Call of Duty.[/QUOTE]

I dont know because I havent followed it past this article, but your saying you expected to get what you payed for and consistent content additions. But were consistent content additions promised to you upon buying the game? Again I am asking because I don't know. But if you just assumed you were going to get that, can't really blame the developer here can you.

Eh PS: When did we start buying games feeling like we are owed extra content, all that is promised to us is the product we receive when we pay, right?
 
As long as people are willing to pay, which they are, of course Valve is going to make a speedy sequel and of course charge full price for it. I'm willing to pay for it and even happy to, since L4D was worth it.
 
[quote name='AceSXE']I dont know because I havent followed it past this article, but your saying you expected to get what you payed for and consistent content additions. But were consistent content additions promised to you upon buying the game? Again I am asking because I don't know. But if you just assumed you were going to get that, can't really blame the developer here can you.

Eh PS: When did we start buying games feeling like we are owed extra content, all that is promised to us is the product we receive when we pay, right?[/QUOTE]

Somewhere in this thread someone has the link but to paraphrase, one of the developers said how much they liked the update formula TF2 has and that they wanted to go the same course with L4D.

We are owed it when we are lured in to buying a game because of it.

EDIT: Just noticed this post

[quote name='xycury']They also released an SDK for TF2... have they done that for L4D?

Maps are free, not content specific, because of the SDK.

Class upgrades they could have charged for, but didn't, still, a minor upgrade.

And achivements?!? You gotta be friggin kidding....


I would guess that the AI Director is nothing then? I'd assume that Vavle had already tried to see if they could roll this out? couldn't so scraped it for L4D2?

Benefit of the doubt would be helpful.... it's not even out yet, nor near any release of notes by Vavle themselves.

I would cry foul for no SDK, but maybe it won't work for L4D2 which will be stupid.

Plus what's the argument here...people paid $50, didn't think they got $50 worth, bitch and moan because Valve is making another $50 product.

That little piggy went whaa whaa whaa all the way home.

Personally I wanted L4D, but waited till it dropped to $25, it was easly worth that, and the release of the rest of the campaings vs, and survival mode completes it, now only if they can get an SDK, we'd be all set.


Final Thought... or question then thought: Are we seeing this on the console side or PC? It might be the fact that there is a console side that they could be releasing a sequel. Far easier to incorporate new things to a solid medium. I don't own one so I will stop there, but maybe we'd see a different path for L4D2 if the console version did not exist.[/QUOTE]

Again, TF2 has had more than just maps and weapons. The extra game modes are a big deal because they required revisions of Hammer, new VO lines, new HUD work, tons of coding, modeling, texture work etc. so don't downplay what the additions have been to TF2.

As you point out yourself though, seems like a lot of things in here are things that couldn't be done by the expected time of L4D1 and are being put in to this whcih is why it shouldn't be a whole new game, it should be DLC or updates. I'll give you that we can't be 100% sure about anything until closer to release and this may be very knee-jerk reactionish but it still seems totally out of character.

As for your comment/question, this also wouldn't surprise me. Not to go all PC elitist on everyone but console ports of PC games generally cause the PC counterpart to suffer. This may be one of those cases much like I imagine it will be with Crysis 2. I don't blame the developers though, the console is the cashcow at the moment.
 
Valve's response, plus some facts I didn't know about L4D2, but perhaps I'm just ill informed.

[quote name='1UP'] Amid protests, Valve's Chet Faliszek says game is "a single, cohesive thing."



The announcement of Left 4 Dead 2 following so closely after the first game has certainly had people talking. Steam members quickly started a boycott group, which already has over 17,000 members promising not to buy the game. But Valve has been consistent in claiming that the sequel isn't simply an attempt at quick cash, and rather a large upgrade from the first game that couldn't be done via downloadable content. Valve's Chet Faliszek told Videogamer.com that the project was originally called "this big thing," and that the sheer amount of content simply couldn't be handled by giving it out in small doses. "It was like, OK, this is big enough that this isn't DLC, we're not going to be able to leak it out," he said, "it's a cohesive, single thing. It's Left 4 Dead 2. Our focus is always on what we're putting in the box, put as much as we can in the box. With the five campaigns, all of them out of the box, playable Versus, co-op, Survival and the new mode, there's just a ton of content in there." He went on to state that the original game won't be abandoned, saying they "still aren't done with it" and have updates coming.
Finally, Faliszek addressed the fear that Left 4 Dead will become a franchise with annual iterations. "We do it once in a year and everyone's like, oh my God! Let's do this one," he said. "Let's worry about this and then we'll see." Obviously that's not an outright denial of annual iterations, but it sounds like they're committed to only making sequels when they're worthwhile.



[/QUOTE]
 
Half-Life 2 has episodes that weren't released as DLC for the main game, yet no one complained.

People keep using TF2 as an example of receiving updates, but even that's a poor example because TF2 and L4D are NOT similar titles. Yeah, they both are online FPS', but that's where the similarities end there. Especially when L4D is also a single player title and a co-op storymode title, aside from offering a versus mode.

Honestly, they're mostly bitching because they're so accustomed to getting everything in the form of free DLC, when this is nothing new to console gamers. They're also forgetting that they're supporting the 360 and it'd be a stretch to put it as DLC on the console as well as making it free, seeing as MS would likely step in and say "This is too big a change. We want money for this."
 
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