GGT 119: Has Sealed the Ponies Away for Another 100 Cycles

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[quote name='Chibi_Kaji']I'm pretty sure that no one was expecting it to have that.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, no one expected that, obviously. I'm just ranting on the current state of gaming, and how games that do contain the aforementioned inspired by Ayn Rand bullshit hokey ass cliche stories usually get sucked off, even though the gameplay is mediocre at best. Not saying Duke has the best gameplay, for the record.

When I play a game, I want to enjoy it and have a good time first and foremost. Fun above all. :nottalking:
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']
When I play a game, I want to enjoy it and have a good time first and foremost. Fun above all. :nottalking:[/QUOTE]

Others beg to differ.

ScroogeMckotick.jpg
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']
When I play a game, I want to enjoy it and have a good time first and foremost. Fun above all. :nottalking:[/QUOTE]

Sonic 06 has you covered there :cool:
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']Yeah, no one expected that, obviously. I'm just ranting on the current state of gaming, and how games that do contain the aforementioned inspired by Ayn Rand bullshit hokey ass cliche stories usually get sucked off, even though the gameplay is mediocre at best. Not saying Duke has the best gameplay, for the record.

When I play a game, I want to enjoy it and have a good time first and foremost. Fun above all. :nottalking:[/QUOTE]

I guess this as a direct shot at Bioshock? If so, I wouldn't call it "inspired" by Ayn Rand. I'd say it is directly at odds with Ayn Rand. But I know that's not your point. And while I can respect games that only care about being fun and enjoyable, if that's all that games ever were I probably wouldn't be as interested in them. It's the games that push the boundaries of what games can be, and how stories can be told, that consistently impress me with the video game medium. For me, a good atmosphere and setting like the one in Bioshock is far more compelling than simple mindless fun (and I loved the gameplay in Bioshock to boot). Don't get me wrong, I love my mindless fun, but I am of the opinion that both can coexist without having to be at war with each other. I'd also like to point out that games like Gears and Bulletstorm, which aren't trying to be artistic, are still well-recieved by critics. So if your point is that games like that don't get enough credit, I would disagree.
 
[quote name='whoknows']One of my friends doesn't agree with me that FFXIII is the best FF because it has the best graphics.

I'm right, right?[/QUOTE]

Of course. How else would you measure a game? (well, other than by how prominently Sonic is featured in it)
 
[quote name='whoknows']Sonic 06 has you covered there :cool:[/QUOTE]
Sonic 2006 has everything, gripping plot AND gameplay.

It's the perfect game.

[quote name='ihadFG']I guess this as a direct shot at Bioshock? If so, I wouldn't call it "inspired" by Ayn Rand. I'd say it is directly at odds with Ayn Rand. But I know that's not your point. [/quote]
You are correct, sir.

And while I can respect games that only care about being fun and enjoyable, if that's all that games ever were I probably wouldn't be as interested in them. It's the games that push the boundaries of what games can be, and how stories can be told, that consistently impress me with the video game medium.
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Maybe it's my old school mentality speaking, but gameplay and fun are what I craved during the 8 and 16 bit eras. I didn't really care about a game's story until I played Final Fantasy 4, right after it came out in the US. That got me hooked on JRPGs, until sometime in the PS2 era. PS2 had a bunch of good JRPGs, but shit started stagnating also. Now the genre is all but dead, save what's on portables.

I enjoyed them for their stories and the atmosphere. Gameplay took a backseat, and I was fine with it.

For me, a good atmosphere and setting like the one in Bioshock is far more compelling than simple mindless fun (and I loved the gameplay in Bioshock to boot). Don't get me wrong, I love my mindless fun, but I am of the opinion that both can coexist without having to be at war with each other. I'd also like to point out that games like Gears and Bulletstorm, which aren't trying to be artistic, are still well-recieved by critics. So if your point is that games like that don't get enough credit, I would disagree.
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Now don't get me wrong, I do like atmosphere in games. But they can't crutch on it. I loved and still love Super Metroid's atmosphere, music, etc, but I also love how it plays. Bioshock's gameplay was decent enough, my main complains are the difficulty balance and how ordinary it actually plays. Dudes taking 8 point blank shotgun blasts near the end for no reason was a lame way to make it more difficult. The AI didn't adapt or anything, they'd seriously get wounded, then run to a recharge station, generic AI. A game like FEAR has way better AI and gunplay.

I don't see myself seriously playing Bioshock again, unless I want to tool around in it. Gameplay just doesn't stand out enough to make me want to play it again, and the story and atmosphere, while different, isn't enough to hook me by itself.

I'e said it before and I'll say it again, Bioshock is Doom 3 with powers. Or rather, Doom 3 Resurrection of Evil. ^__^

Gears and Bulletstorm were artistic, but they didn't beat you over the head with it. Look at the architecture and design in both. A lot of work and design went into them. The giant rolling wheel segment in Bulletstorm is still the coolest thing I've seen all year in gaming. Bioshock falls into the same category as games like Braid, that say "Hey, I'm artsy and unique!!" and they proceed to beat you over the head with it. They are the hipsters of the gaming world, IMO, in that they try way too hard to convince you of what they want to be.


But who am I to say what a person should and shouldn't enjoy? Just play what you want to play and enjoy it. ^__^
 
[quote name='j-cart']By how many pages there in the manual. *Hint* less pages=better game.[/QUOTE]

This raises a very important question. Do the pages have to be physical? If so, then I think Alice wins GOTY because it only contains an insert telling you that the manual is digital and on the disc.
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']They just need to start packing games in cardboard sleeves, nothing else.

Gotta save dat environment, yo.[/QUOTE]

I would pay extra if they did that, because I love the earth that much.

$59.99 games could be $69.99.
 
[quote name='ihadFG']This raises a very important question. Do the pages have to be physical? If so, then I think Alice wins GOTY because it only contains an insert telling you that the manual is digital and on the disc.[/QUOTE]

I was going to say the same thing. :grouphug:
Also, Alice might be my GOTY so far...:bouncy:
 
[quote name='ihadFG']This raises a very important question. Do the pages have to be physical? If so, then I think Alice wins GOTY because it only contains an insert telling you that the manual is digital and on the disc.[/QUOTE]

That insert tells you that there is a manual within the game. I am straight up talking about a full manual booklet with the least amount of pages.

/edit: by my standards, MGS is one of the worst series.
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme'] Bioshock falls into the same category as games like Braid[/QUOTE]
Putting Bioshock in the same category as Braid? No game is as bad as that piece of hipster trash.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']Putting Bioshock in the same category as Braid? No game is as bad as that piece of hipster trash.[/QUOTE]

Shit, you're right, I'm sorry. Bioshock was at least entertaining. Shocking dudes and beating them with my wrench.

Braid was horrible.
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']
Maybe it's my old school mentality speaking, but gameplay and fun are what I craved during the 8 and 16 bit eras. I didn't really care about a game's story until I played Final Fantasy 4, right after it came out in the US. That got me hooked on JRPGs, until sometime in the PS2 era. PS2 had a bunch of good JRPGs, but shit started stagnating also. Now the genre is all but dead, save what's on portables.

I enjoyed them for their stories and the atmosphere. Gameplay took a backseat, and I was fine with it.
[/QUOTE]

I do think the old-school mentality probably has a lot to do with it. And I'm perfectly fine with people who mainly just want to play games that are simple fun. But I do dislike it when people act like games that don't fit that criteria are doing it wrong. As I said before, I think both can coexist, and fans of either side don't need to be "right".


[quote name='hankmecrankme']
Now don't get me wrong, I do like atmosphere in games. But they can't crutch on it.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with this. But I don't think that gameplay necessarily has to be what makes up the game either. I think Bioshock has a lot more going for it than just atmosphere. The setting, art direction, characters, themes, etc. all help make the game what it is. Even if you aren't a fan of the gameplay, I do feel like all those other things make up a good chunk of what makes the game interesting and unique among other games.

[quote name='hankmecrankme']
I loved and still love Super Metroid's atmosphere, music, etc, but I also love how it plays. Bioshock's gameplay was decent enough, my main complains are the difficulty balance and how ordinary it actually plays. Dudes taking 8 point blank shotgun blasts near the end for no reason was a lame way to make it more difficult. The AI didn't adapt or anything, they'd seriously get wounded, then run to a recharge station, generic AI. A game like FEAR has way better AI and gunplay.
[/QUOTE]

The AI may not have been anything extrordinary, but it also didn't feel bad to me, and for me that was enough since the focus of the game wasn't entirely on dynamic, challenging gameplay, and thus the AI wasn't as important as it would be for straight up gameplay-focused games. I thought the combat was still fun though due to the variety of weapons, powers, and ammo types. Plus the combination of the three. Plus there was the added fun of taking pictures of enemies in action.

[quote name='hankmecrankme']
I don't see myself seriously playing Bioshock again, unless I want to tool around in it. Gameplay just doesn't stand out enough to make me want to play it again, and the story and atmosphere, while different, isn't enough to hook me by itself. [/QUOTE]

I probably wouldn't play it again either (at least not for a long time), but I don't see that as a fault. Some games are just more suited to a single playthough. As long as that initial playthough impresses me, that's all I want. The same goes for movies. Some are fun and rewatchable, whereas some are great, but not the kind of thing you want to watch again every year. The memory is enough.

[quote name='hankmecrankme']
I'e said it before and I'll say it again, Bioshock is Doom 3 with powers. Or rather, Doom 3 Resurrection of Evil. ^__^
[/QUOTE]

Doom 3 was a game with a generic setting, cheap predictable scares, and nothing to say. I haven't played Resurrection of Evil, but I would hardly compare Bioshock to Doom 3.

[quote name='hankmecrankme']
Gears and Bulletstorm were artistic, but they didn't beat you over the head with it. Look at the architecture and design in both. A lot of work and design went into them. The giant rolling wheel segment in Bulletstorm is still the coolest thing I've seen all year in gaming.
[/QUOTE]

I would give you that the level design could be consider artistic (and Bulletstorm sure was a beautiful game), but I don't consider the overall products to be what I mean by artistic in this instance.

[quote name='hankmecrankme']
Bioshock falls into the same category as games like Braid, that say "Hey, I'm artsy and unique!!" and they proceed to beat you over the head with it. They are the hipsters of the gaming world, IMO, in that they try way too hard to convince you of what they want to be.
[/QUOTE]

I disagree. I think those two games have the content to back it up. Some games try to be artsy, but don't really know what they're doing. To me, those are the kind of games that are trying too hard to convince you of what they want to be. Bioshock and Braid though, both are actually successful at what they try to do. I'm not easy enough to fool that a simple use of artsy visuals and music are enough to win me over. Those are simply the icing on the cake. If the games didn't have anything to back those up, I would not care for them very much. It seems these days that anything that even tries to be artistic is "trying too hard" and "hipster" regardless of whether it succeeds or not.

[quote name='hankmecrankme']
But who am I to say what a person should and shouldn't enjoy? Just play what you want to play and enjoy it. ^__^[/QUOTE]

This I can agree with.
 
Bioshock was okay. Just okay.


People always act like average games are better than they really are. Most recently with
Portal 2.
 
Yeah, just from a gameplay perspective I'd say Duke is comparable to shooters from early this gen - The Darkness, FEAR etc..except his movement is still straight out of Duke 3D
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']The real question is "What is art?"

RoboCop is my Citizen Kane.[/QUOTE]

While it's true that what everyone is looking for is different, that doesn't mean things that are intellectual are pretentious. I guess my point is that people try to make the claim that a game like Braid is artsy for the sake of being artsy, but to me it had the content to back that up. Both the gameplay and the ending had real substance, and that's the kind of thing that makes an "art game" feel complete to me.

I find it to be just as hipstery and pretentious if not moreso when people act like people who like games like Braid are only in it for shallow reasons. If you don't like it, that's fine, but that doesn't mean people who do like it are just trying to be cool.
 
I didn't like Braid because of its gameplay and hideous art style, mostly the latter.

For the record, my current GOTY is
The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile.

Still need to finish Outland, but that's quality stuff too.
 
[quote name='FriskyTanuki']I might actually have to take GameStop up on their PowerUp Rewards deal for both Zelda DS games for $20.[/QUOTE]

As a fan of Zelda, I say they aren't very good. But $20 total for both isn't too shabby.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']As a fan of Zelda, I say they aren't very good. But $20 total for both isn't too shabby.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Spirit Track, especially.

------
How do I properly express to a close friend of mine that the chick he's with is fuckin' ugly without hurting his feelings? I don't want him to get saddled with an ugly kid and I'm genuinely worried.
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']Shit, you're right, I'm sorry. Bioshock was at least entertaining. Shocking dudes and beating them with my wrench.

Braid was horrible.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='hankmecrankme']I didn't like Braid because of its gameplay and hideous art style, mostly the latter.

For the record, my current GOTY is
The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile.

Still need to finish Outland, but that's quality stuff too.[/QUOTE]



Perhaps it's time for a... bromance? :cool:
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']I didn't like Braid because of its gameplay and hideous art style, mostly the latter.

For the record, my current GOTY is
The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile.

Still need to finish Outland, but that's quality stuff too.[/QUOTE]

I loved Braid's art style, but I think that's pretty clear by now. To each his own. But the puzzles are my favorite part of the game.

I haven't played Vampire Smile yet, but I enjoyed the demo somewhat.

And Outland is my downloadable GOTY so far. Also, I love the art style in it.

[quote name='KingBroly']As a fan of Zelda, I say they aren't very good. But $20 total for both isn't too shabby.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I'd say the same. They are my two least favorite entries in the series (but that's still not too harsh considering they are part of one of the best series ever). Spirit Tracks was especially dull with the train bits. Both are still good though, and they make great use of the DS controls.
 
[quote name='CaptainJoel']How do I properly express to a close friend of mine that the chick he's with is fuckin' ugly without hurting his feelings? I don't want him to get saddled with an ugly kid and I'm genuinely worried.[/QUOTE]

Ugly people are gross.

Everytime he's with her just make gagging sounds and point at her face.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']As a fan of Zelda, I say they aren't very good. But $20 total for both isn't too shabby.[/QUOTE]
I've been wanting to get Phantom Hourglass and for $5 more, I get Spirit Tracks and can sell it if I don't like it without losing much.
 
[quote name='CaptainJoel']How do I properly express to a close friend of mine that the chick he's with is fuckin' ugly without hurting his feelings? I don't want him to get saddled with an ugly kid and I'm genuinely worried.[/QUOTE]
Bone her. That'll break them up nicely. :cool:

[quote name='corrosivefrost']Perhaps it's time for a... bromance? :cool:[/QUOTE]
Any time is a good time for bromance. :hot:

[quote name='ihadFG']I loved Braid's art style, but I think that's pretty clear by now. To each his own. But the puzzles are my favorite part of the game.

I haven't played Vampire Smile yet, but I enjoyed the demo somewhat.

And Outland is my downloadable GOTY so far. Also, I love the art style in it. [/quote]
Puzzles are cool.

Vampire Smile is so good. it's basically as close as we'll get to a 2D DMC/NG style game, ever.

I like Outland's art style a lot. So we can at least agree on that. ^__^
 
this is always a dumb argument because people go straight for "artsy" games. every game is potentially art because it can convey messages within its content.

action games, little plat-formers like Super-Mario, it's all fair game if you want to argue for it. people who cant think outside the box just point to games like Braid as art because it's so "omg metaphors and melancholic sadness!!!" which their narrow minds can only relate to other art mediums and whatever symbolic book or movie they saw in the past. likewise, people against the idea of videogames as art point to Braid and call it shit. lol?

reality is, games have all the obvious art forms mingled in them (visuals, sounds, literature, etc...) along with the element of interactivity -- which is a new form of art. It's why we don't call Super Mario a scrolling movie-book. It's why a LOTR movie can never be a LOTR book. Each medium specializes in certain things the other cannot compensate for. A camera angle is artistic -- it was never considered to be in the past but now you can write papers on it in college. Shakespeare was considered trashy entertainment when first introduced, it's now a staple in art education around the world. It's arguments like this that are sprouting up everywhere, and institutions gradually recognizing new mediums as art that are evidence that the cycle is merely repeating itself.

And Braid is so good because it puts this element of interactivity as art to the forefront of its design. It didn't revolutionize anything, it just proved what we already know in a brilliant way. Same can be said about Shadow of the Colossus. For however many people want to cringe and vomit when someone praises these games, the credit for what they achieved cannot be denied.

I'm playing Assassin's Creed 2 right now, and I must say, the game's combat is kind of ass. But people enjoy it, and you know what? I do too. Because besides the awkward mechanics, it's the link of satisfaction my brain makes when pressing a button on the controller, to seeing a beautiful execution appear on screen that makes the game speak to me. It says, "yeah, you're an assassin in the 1500s, feel it?" A book cannot make me feel that way, a movie cannot, a picture cannot. That does not make a video game "better," it just separates itself as one more form of art that we can appreciate today. It doesn't have to be a deep look into the holocaust or an analysis of religion -- it can be just plowing through shit in Diablo II and to me that game is one of the most artistic in the business.


and bioshock is overrated.
 
Shakespeare is trashy entertainment.

When I played Assassin's Creed 2, I was just a bartender in a VR chair playing a VR sim of an assassin from the 1500s. Get it right. :nottalking:
 
I enjoyed Bioshock's narrative well enough - but the art direction is the real draw...gameplay second (though Bioshock 2's was clearly better with the dual wielding and drill dash).
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']i didnt call it a masterpiece. and bioshock is hardly a bad game.[/QUOTE]

Just an observation based on my opinions of said games, not necessarily meant to be a dig at you or your opinions -- I'll agree that Bioshock is probably somewhat overrated, just because it was one of the first console FPS games to try to do narrative and atmosphere and do it relatively well (I loved the whole Atlantis feel and the would you kindly part of the story, personally).

I'm not even going to start tearing about Braid again, because I feel like a broken record. :cool:
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']I guess every form of art takes a certain level of imagination to appreciate it[/QUOTE]
I killed plenty of dragons in my back yard while growing up, thank you very much. :nottalking:

[quote name='corrosivefrost']if Bioshock is overrated, I'm not sure a word exists to describe the amount of undue praise people heap on Jonathan Blow's "masterpiece". :rofl:[/QUOTE]
:D
[quote name='panzerfaust']i didnt call it a masterpiece. and bioshock is hardly a bad game.[/QUOTE]
You didn't, everyone else did. :bouncy:
 
Ocarina of Time is great. You'll dig it.

I wouldn't run out and buy a 3DS just to play it though, since I've already played it to completion 4 times or so.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']this is always a dumb argument because people go straight for "artsy" games. every game is potentially art because it can convey messages within its content.

action games, little plat-formers like Super-Mario, it's all fair game if you want to argue for it. people who cant think outside the box just point to games like Braid as art because it's so "omg metaphors and melancholic sadness!!!" which their narrow minds can only relate to other art mediums and whatever symbolic book or movie they saw in the past. likewise, people against the idea of videogames as art point to Braid and call it shit. lol?

reality is, games have all the obvious art forms mingled in them (visuals, sounds, literature, etc...) along with the element of interactivity -- which is a new form of art. It's why we don't call Super Mario a scrolling movie-book. It's why a LOTR movie can never be a LOTR book. Each medium specializes in certain things the other cannot compensate for. A camera angle is artistic -- it was never considered to be in the past but now you can write papers on it in college. Shakespeare was considered trashy entertainment when first introduced, it's now a staple in art education around the world. It's arguments like this that are sprouting up everywhere, and institutions gradually recognizing new mediums as art that are evidence that the cycle is merely repeating itself.

And Braid is so good because it puts this element of interactivity as art to the forefront of its design. It didn't revolutionize anything, it just proved what we already know in a brilliant way. Same can be said about Shadow of the Colossus. For however many people want to cringe and vomit when someone praises these games, the credit for what they achieved cannot be denied.
[/QUOTE]

I completely agree with this. Especially the whole interactivity thing. Braid and SOTC are so successful at being "art" because of how they use the medium. And not all art has to have what most would call an "artsy" aesthetic. In fact, most of it doesn't. That just happens to be the type of art that people love to hate on because it's easier to say people only like it because it's artsy rather than evaluating its actual merits and achievements.
 
Ocarina of Time is a game that has managed to still hold up after all these years. I played all the way through it for the first time last year on the N64 and absolutely loved it. My copy of OoT 3D is on it's way from amazon, so I look forward to playing it again.
 
I'm just happy to have anything to play on it at this point - especially since I just cannot play SSFIV on it...impossible for me to do anything where the circle pad has to go down to back
 
[quote name='diddy310']I'm just happy to have anything to play on it at this point - especially since I just cannot play SSFIV on it...impossible for me to do anything where the circle pad has to go down to back[/QUOTE]

You use the circle pad for SSFIV? I tried it, but just couldn't use it. I used the D-Pad, which is surprisingly great.
 
Yeah, tried that too...just the shape/position of them makes it hard for me to move quickly around them...should only be an issue for fighters.
 
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