Is the Wii ruining the gaming future?

[quote name='MSI Magus']Mario Kart was a good game but let many people down and its thought of as the weakest entry into the franchise in some time. Wario was meh both in reveiws and gamer opinion and Animal Crossing was the same game we have seen time and time again without much new innovation or even items for players to find. This essentially means that we got a gimped Mario Kart, weak wario land, the same AC we have already seen and the 1 true shiner this year was SSBB.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you on Mario Kart, especially as it followed the DS version, which was a real gem. Wario platformers, like Kirby ones, are traditionally hit or miss. Animal Crossing is Nintendo's Harvest Moon, so I wasn't expecting much innovation anyway, and what is new is good. SSBB was excellent, but it was also the most ambitious and hyped franchise title of the four.

[quote name='MSI Magus']Again this is wrong headed. First off the stuff that they have released has been pushed out the door or origionally a GC game. Second the DS disproves this. Look how much great quality stuff we are getting on the DS.....your telling me that Nintendo cant even come close to matching the quality of their own system?[/QUOTE]
Off the top of my head, the only titles that were intended to be GameCube ones were Twilight Princess, Super Paper Mario, and the upcoming Kirby. The Pokemon battle game and some of the Mario spinoffs do look rushed, but I don't think the rest of it was, especially Brawl, Galaxy, and AC:CF.

Secondly, that's not a fair argument, as the DS has been out for much longer. Also, the really good DS games didn't even start to show up until months after it launched, same with the Wii. Developers need time to learn the ropes of the systems, and that goes for first, second, and third parties.
 
[quote name='blueshinra']I agree with you on Mario Kart, especially as it followed the DS version, which was a real gem. Wario platformers, like Kirby ones, are traditionally hit or miss. Animal Crossing is Nintendo's Harvest Moon, so I wasn't expecting much innovation anyway, and what is new is good. SSBB was excellent, but it was also the most ambitious and hyped franchise title of the four.[/QUOTE]

I agree that the Wario games are usually hit or miss.....but the point is that you held it up as a good game Nintendo put out in the last year. I was just saying it was a definite miss this time around. AC ya is the HM of Nintendo games, and I also really dont mind not having a lot of innovation........but having the game come out and it features the same tshirts, house items and all the other crap. Its essentially not just lacking innovation but lacking anything new. Every review I read complains that its essentially the exact same game and that there isnt much point in buying it(gametrailers review showed this very well).

So again that leaves 1 single Nintendo release for the Wii this year that is not just worth picking up, but their standard AAA quality. Add that to the previous big games Mario and Zelda were just gamecube games refocused to the Wii(Mario was one, if you look back at old interviews Miyamot talks about it) and that the other stuff has been crap...........ya Nintendo is a sad company that doesnt deserve your defense right now.

Also the DS is a fair comparison. Yes it took a few months....but thats the key word.....months. The Wii has been out 2 years now and again had 1 or 2 games for it built from the ground up from Nintendo themselves that have held up to standards of the past. The DS had numerous plus tons of third party support.

Join the dark side blue shinra. I am sitting here wearing a Mario hat and a Zelda t shirt. Its not that I have anything against Nintendo I love them.....just not for the Wii which is impossible to defend logically.
 
[quote name='blueshinra']
Secondly, that's not a fair argument, as the DS has been out for much longer. Also, the really good DS games didn't even start to show up until months after it launched, same with the Wii. Developers need time to learn the ropes of the systems, and that goes for first, second, and third parties.[/QUOTE]

While I agree than Nintendo has done a semi ok job so far--I was the one that showed their support was on par with what they did with the GC and N64--I do think it's getting worse.

It was great for the first year and a half when Zelda, Metroid, Mario, Smash Bros and Mario Kart all came out. But there's been nothing since unless you're into Animal Crossing and there really isn't anything on the horizon. Just mentions of a Zelda and Pikmin in development.

With the DS the first year was terrible, but the second yea and into the third (2005-2006) was very good for both first and third party support. Since then first party games have nearly vanished. Though third party support has remained strong--as long as you like RPGs, SRPGs and point and click adventure games.

So I would say there's definitely a trend of Nintendo releases slowing down. However, again I'm not sure this is unique to the Wii or DS. With the N64 and GC there were huge droughts in first part games after the first couple of years when all the games they had been developing to put out at or near launch were released. So I still don't really think that it's totally that their focusing on making games like Wii Fit or Wii Music over making another Mario game or a Kid Icarus.

And I still think all this Wii is runing gaming stuff is non-sense. Nintendo's doing their own thing. If you don't like it, as I don't, don't buy the Wii (or sell it like I did if you have one and are dissapponted) and enjoy the other 2 consoles which have a ton of great games in various traditional genres.
 
[quote name='Renaissance 2K']I like what the Wii and the DS have done to the gaming industry. If anything, it's killed the stigma that used to surround somebody that played video games.
[/quote]

I think it has made it worse, would you rather gaming be thought of as "nerdy" or "childish?" I'll take nerdy any day over childish.

Has anyone compared the attachment rate for the Wii? I know of at least 4 people that have less than 3 games for it. I am just curious.
 
[quote name='h3llbring3r']I think it has made it worse, would you rather gaming be thought of as "nerdy" or "childish?" I'll take nerdy any day over childish.

Has anyone compared the attachment rate for the Wii? I know of at least 4 people that have less than 3 games for it. I am just curious.[/quote]
The general opinion (among people who don't play games) is that the Wii is childish? That's a new one. I thought that was just the opinion of gamers.

Wii attach rate is less than the 360 and about the same as the PS3 (I think the PS3 has been catching up due to much slower hardware sales).

Edit: Ah, here's public info missing only October:

tie_ratios_medium.png
 
[quote name='botticus']The general opinion (among people who don't play games) is that the Wii is childish? That's a new one. I thought that was just the opinion of gamers.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Among the general population who doesn't play games at all, games are still viewed as nerdy and/or toys for kids. The Wii/DS hasn't changed the image among non-gamers. It may have changed it among adults who have started gaming with the DS or Wii though, which was the original point and one that I agree with.
 
[quote name='botticus']The general opinion (among people who don't play games) is that the Wii is childish? That's a new one. I thought that was just the opinion of gamers.

Wii attach rate is less than the 360 and about the same as the PS3 (I think the PS3 has been catching up due to much slower hardware sales).

Edit: Ah, here's public info missing only October:

tie_ratios_medium.png
[/quote]

Among my peers in the late 20's early 30's gaming is now a childish waste of time, thanks to the Wii (who think that everything I play is like WiiSports, Carnival Games or Mariokart- Purely anecdotal but what in terms opinions isn't.

Ironically, I had my wife and a friend (one of our casual Wii-playing/RB friends) dropped-in the HT while I was playing GoW2 and they were like "HOLYSH!T, that's the kind of games that are out now."
 
Who all are these new consumers buying Wii and Wii Fit if there is a negative opinion of it? Buying Wii Fit for their kids? Kids moved into retirement homes?
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Who all are these new consumers buying Wii and Wii Fit if there is a negative opinion of it? Buying Wii Fit for their kids?[/QUOTE]

There's a negative opinion of gaming in general among people who do not buy and play games. Obviously, it's not all people who don't game that feel that way, but I think most everyone here who is older (late 20's early 30's especially) could probably tell stories of getting comments along the lines of "you still play videogames?" from non-gaming friends, acquaintances, co-workers etc.
 
i dont think its killing games maybe just making game designers lazy,if they sell games with great graphics why whould they have to work hard to make HD games?
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']There's a negative opinion of gaming in general among people who do not buy and play games.[/quote]
Absolutely. This is a key point. The solution to the problem is to dramatically increase the number of people who buy and play games.

The older people are probably the ones most likely to be negative on video games. Some of them have now been brought into the fold.

The stigma is better than it has ever been. Improvements are being made. This is what going mainstream is all about. My own parents have always hated gaming. They now own a DS and Brain Age and are looking to find other puzzly games. One CAG made a thread about being given a PRESCRIPTION for the DS/Wii from his doctor!
 
The Wii is ruining nothing. Nintendo is making some stupid decisions, kind of alienated the people that love it most, and is just putting out endless amounts of shovelware. But it is clear to see that they can turn out a great game when they are actually coming out with and working hard on new stuff. As well, as everyone knows nintendo does things differently and right now are selling almost double the amount of first party games that the other systems are. Without the real big third party support its not practical that they will have the content that the 360 and PS3 have.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']There's a negative opinion of gaming in general among people who do not buy and play games. Obviously, it's not all people who don't game that feel that way, but I think most everyone here who is older (late 20's early 30's especially) could probably tell stories of getting comments along the lines of "you still play videogames?" from non-gaming friends, acquaintances, co-workers etc.[/quote]


i got that comment alot during the genesis/snes era. things changed though during the n64/ps1 era however. more and more people had one of those consoles on campus and alot of their popolarity was pushed by the wide range of games. each system had games that were fun to play alone and games you could play with others ( goldeneye being on of the most popular).


if you look at nintendo then and now theyre a diff beast. just look t the commercials for their respective systems this gen. i really feel bad for all the fanboys who always stuck by nin no matter what. whether it was when TP was rumored to be cancelled for the gc and going to the wii they always stayed loyal.

now nin is like thanks for the help but we dont need you anymore feel free to join in on the fun but dont expect more than what you see.

the one question i have is with their console sales still so high do they really even need alot of software? many of you have pointed out most people who buy the system only buy the same few games.
 
Thats called running a business. Sony and MS would KILL to be able to move machines without having to release new software. They've both done away with most of their 1st party development, but the point still stands.

Theres money to be made in software, and Nintendo is taking a backseat and letting whoever wants it have at it. If developers/publishers would rather continue going bankrupt pursuing HD gaming and getting consolidated and bought out, thats their decision.
 
[quote name='lokizz']if you look at nintendo then and now theyre a diff beast. just look t the commercials for their respective systems this gen. i really feel bad for all the fanboys who always stuck by nin no matter what.[/quote]
What is the real difference though? You pick up the Nintendo system if you want to play the newest Mario/Zelda/Metroid/etc. game, knowing that third party support may be lacking and the overall atmosphere is going to be family-friendly with fewer 'mature' games than competitors' consoles.

This has been true since the N64. As has been reiterated over and over in this thread, Nintendo's branching out into the casual domain hasn't been accompanied by a lack of attention to their traditional series entries. If you don't like the casual games, ignore the casual games! We're still getting Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., and Fire Emblem. And anyone who's paid attention to Nintendo this decade shouldn't have been expecting Dead Space and Gears of War to show up on Wii.

So again, being personally disappointed in Nintendo's offerings is one thing, but all this stuff about the Wii being a deathknell for hardcore games is totally unfounded.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Thats called running a business. Sony and MS would KILL to be able to move machines without having to release new software. They've both done away with most of their 1st party development, but the point still stands.

Theres money to be made in software, and Nintendo is taking a backseat and letting whoever wants it have at it. If developers/publishers would rather continue going bankrupt pursuing HD gaming and getting consolidated and bought out, thats their decision.[/quote]

3rd party games on wii barely sell enough to make a profit. Just because the wii costs less to Dev for does not translate into profit.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Thats called running a business. Sony and MS would KILL to be able to move machines without having to release new software. They've both done away with most of their 1st party development, but the point still stands.

Theres money to be made in software, and Nintendo is taking a backseat and letting whoever wants it have at it. If developers/publishers would rather continue going bankrupt pursuing HD gaming and getting consolidated and bought out, thats their decision.[/QUOTE]

You seriously need to get off Nintendos cock. Every time I see you you have a finger up their ass from the reach around ;)

Anyways its a joke to see its a good thing Nintendo is bringing more people into gaming when in reality those people arnt buying welcomed to the fold or converted......they are just sitting on the outskirts looking over a fence at the rest of us because their interest is piqued. My fiancees parents got one for her dad last Christmas and played with it for a week they broke it out again for Wii Play, Wii fit and Mario and Sonic at the olympics.....each time in under a week the Wii got bundled back up and put behind the TV. The dad whom it was bought for doesnt even use it, its the kids and rarely the mom.

This is the problem with the Wii. The crap to quality ratio is higher then ever and the best selling games are the craptastic ones. The Wii isnt creating new gamers, its guranteeing another fad that long term could hurt the industry.

Nintendo fans are such a joke. During the last two generations all you have done is rant about how its quality not quantity and brand quality not sales that matter. Now here you are selling your soul saying at least our console is selling without software yours wishes it could do the same thing. Like I said I am sitting here in a Zelda shirt and want to see Nintendo be quality.....because I am a true fan not a fanboy with a smell finger.
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']What is the real difference though? You pick up the Nintendo system if you want to play the newest Mario/Zelda/Metroid/etc. game, knowing that third party support may be lacking and the overall atmosphere is going to be family-friendly with fewer 'mature' games than competitors' consoles.

This has been true since the N64. As has been reiterated over and over in this thread, Nintendo's branching out into the casual domain hasn't been accompanied by a lack of attention to their traditional series entries. If you don't like the casual games, ignore the casual games! We're still getting Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Mario Kart, Smash Bros., and Fire Emblem. And anyone who's paid attention to Nintendo this decade shouldn't have been expecting Dead Space and Gears of War to show up on Wii.

So again, being personally disappointed in Nintendo's offerings is one thing, but all this stuff about the Wii being a deathknell for hardcore games is totally unfounded.[/QUOTE]

Disagree. First off if you buy a Nintendo system for Nintendo games as you claim you are proving we are right.....since Nintendo is no longer in the bussiness of making games in the same way they were before. Second though you make it sound as though Nintendos third party support was non existent last gen. It was deffintly lacking thats for damn sure......but it was no where near where it was now. Plenty of great multi console games hit the GC and then there were tons of great exclusives like Tales and Baiten Kaitos. The Xbox was also not in much better of a position last gen where the 360 this gen is in a MUCH better position. Last gen part of the reason Nintendo didn't receive as much third party support is because Sony was taking all of it due to the PS2s overwhelming success. Nintendo could have possibly set themselves up to be the PS2 of this gen....but instead they have become something worse then even the N64.
 
YES! I totally agree that with Gamecube it WAS "Quality vs Quanity" HOWEVER, the quality of some of these Wii games are just..horrendous.
 
I was never on the Gamecube bandwagon. I never even owned a 64. I only stand behind whoever has the highest marketshare. You're mistaken by putting me in the same quality over quanity gamecube group. Thats merely what you get when you have low marketshare (PS3).

I dont buy a Nintendo system for Nintendo games. I stopped playing most of their franchises once they went 3D. I've never played a 3D Zelda or a 3d Metroid. I didnt play Mario 64 until the DS. I never played Mario Sunshine or Luigi's Mansion, and none of the home console Starfox games since SNES. I did play Double Dash but I hated it, skipped 64 and Wii versions.

My primary home consoles have been NES-SNES-PS1-PS2-Wii.

Always marketshare.

The amount of shovelware present now is because the Wii basically has to have 3 consoles worth of it. Last generation they might be able to afford to go GC or XBOX in addition to PS2. Now they are priced out of those markets. Those developers are very sensitive to marketshare and development costs. Fortunately, the ratio doesnt matter, because you dont have to buy those games!

I want an environment that is friendly to low budget developers. I dont want to reduce shovelware, I want to DOUBLE it.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Nintendo is no longer in the bussiness of making games in the same way they were before.[/quote]
People keep saying this but I would like someone to explain it specifically. This gen, in the first two years, Nintendo has given us new entries in the Mario, Metroid, Smash Bros., Mario Kart, and Animal Crossing series. Give Zelda, Paper Mario, and Fire Emblem "half credit" if you want, since they are essentially GameCube ports rather than native Wii projects like the others. Add in a handful of third-party gems (No More Heroes, Trauma Center, Zack & Wiki, Boom Blox...) and some multiplatform titles (Guitar Hero World Tour, Okami, Resident Evil 4, the Lego series...).

I think you could make a decent argument that the Wii's lineup over the first two years is better than the GameCube's, not worse. And perhaps on par with the N64. It's certainly not some dramatic drop-off in quality. And this is all before we even get to the casual games, which you are free to ignore if that's not your thing.

Point is, it's not an either-or thing. Nintendo is spending a lot of money and time courting casual players, yes, but that hasn't prevented them from treating their traditional fans fairly decently. At least as well as at any other time since the SNES.
 
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[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']I was never on the Gamecube bandwagon. I never even owned a 64. I only stand behind whoever has the highest marketshare. You're mistaken by putting me in the same quality over quanity gamecube group. Thats merely what you get when you have low marketshare (PS3).

I dont buy a Nintendo system for Nintendo games. I stopped playing most of their franchises once they went 3D. I've never played a 3D Zelda or a 3d Metroid. I didnt play Mario 64 until the DS. I never played Mario Sunshine or Luigi's Mansion, and none of the home console Starfox games since SNES. I did play Double Dash but I hated it, skipped 64 and Wii versions.

My primary home consoles have been NES-SNES-PS1-PS2-Wii.

Always marketshare.

The amount of shovelware present now is because the Wii basically has to have 3 consoles worth of it. Last generation they might be able to afford to go GC or XBOX in addition to PS2. Now they are priced out of those markets. Those developers are very sensitive to marketshare and development costs. Fortunately, the ratio doesnt matter, because you dont have to buy those games!

I want an environment that is friendly to low budget developers. I dont want to reduce shovelware, I want to DOUBLE it.[/QUOTE]

Wow I feel sorry for you and am very glad you are one of a kind in the gaming universe. All any gamer should care about is getting his hands on as many good games as possible, often system sales are an indicator of this(as your list shows)but the Wii has not been one of those.

*walks away stunned that someone owns a Nintendo console but doesnt like Nintendo games and wants more shovelware*

People keep saying this but I would like someone to explain it specifically. This gen, in the first two years, Nintendo has given us new entries in the Mario, Metroid, Smash Bros., Mario Kart, and Animal Crossing series. Give Zelda, Paper Mario, and Fire Emblem "half credit" if you want, since they are essentially GameCube ports rather than native Wii projects like the others. Add in a handful of third-party gems (No More Heroes, Trauma Center, Zack & Wiki, Boom Blox...) and some multiplatform titles (Guitar Hero World Tour, Okami, Resident Evil 4, the Lego series...).

I think you could make a decent argument that the Wii's lineup over the first two years is better than the GameCube's, not worse. And perhaps on par with the N64. It's certainly not some dramatic drop-off in quality. And this is all before we even get to the casual games, which you are free to ignore if that's not your thing.
Click to expand...

Have you read my posts at all? Lets go over your list as I have with others here.

Mario - Started as a GC game so doesnt count
Metroid - Quality
Mario Kart - Seen as one of the weakest entries in the series
Smash Bros. - Quality
Animal Crossing - As I said every review is pointing out that there is no reason to own this. Its the same as every other version, they didnt even bother adding many new items. Counting this as a new game is like counting Kingdom Hearts Final Mix as a completely new game.
Zelda - GC Port
Paper Mario - GC Port
Fire Emblem - port I believe

So in this list of Nintendo games over the last 2 years you named a ton of ports, 2 quality titles, a Mario Kart seen as the weakest in the series and Animal Crossing which might as well be a port of the GC one. 2 games in 2 years unique to the Wii and originally intended for the Wii not GC that most would call AAA. Then you take into acount that Nintendo has started shifting focus to stuff like Wii play and Wii Fit and add in that they are created a GC line of games with upgraded Wii mote function and claiming its to appease hardcore fans. You can try and argue all you want but Nintendo on the Wii is not the same company(their DS work is still pretty good).

As for third party well

No More Heroes - Not AAA and some argue not even average.
Trauma Center - Again not AAA and most say to just play the DS versions
Zack & Wiki - Quality.....though probaly not AAA. Quality none the less
Boom Blox - Same as above

(Guitar Hero World Tour, Okami, Resident Evil 4, the Lego series - All seen as weaker then the versions on other systems by most gamers(minus RE4).

The Wii is simply NOT a system where quality is the focus. Yes it receives some quality titles but Nintendo has shifted focus and the stuff from third parties even when quality is B line up stuff like De Blob and the games you named.
 
I dont want to buy/play/own shovelware. I just want the development environment to be as friendly to them as possible because thats the environment that is going to be best for ALL developers, from your big fish to niche RPG houses.

Low costs, high marketshare = more freedom to take risks.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']I dont want to buy/play/own shovelware. I just want the development environment to be as friendly to them as possible because thats the environment that is going to be best for ALL developers, from your big fish to niche RPG houses.

Low costs, high marketshare = more freedom to take risks.[/QUOTE]

No actually it means MORE risk because the system gets flooded with crap and people stop putting trust in the system. Plus it often means people make descions on stupid stuff like box art vs game reviews or word of mouth. Every system minus the Wii that you named has been a good quality system, however they have all suffered the problem of having great games like Klonoa and Shadow Hearts get burried under the piles of turds.
 
Well, look, I can't argue with your personal opinion that Mario Kart Wii is not as good as Mario Kart 64 or whatever. If I said that I myself have enjoyed MK Wii more than any other previous entry, would that refute what you said? :)
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']Well, look, I can't argue with your personal opinion that Mario Kart Wii is not as good as Mario Kart 64 or whatever. If I said that I myself have enjoyed MK Wii more than any other previous entry, would that refute what you said? :)[/QUOTE]

Its not my opinion. It was mentioned in pretty much every game review I read when it came out. It was discussed here at CAGer, it was discussed on the 1up show by their whole staff, it wad discussed on gametrailers invisible walls etc etc. It was a dumbed down version of Mario Kart for all the newbies that would have never played it. Even Nintendo themselves said they had changed the game to make it more accessible to new players.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']No actually it means MORE risk because the system gets flooded with crap and people stop putting trust in the system. Plus it often means people make descions on stupid stuff like box art vs game reviews or word of mouth. Every system minus the Wii that you named has been a good quality system, however they have all suffered the problem of having great games like Klonoa and Shadow Hearts get burried under the piles of turds.[/quote]
If its a problem only successful systems have, then its a problem you WANT to have. Thats just part of having a successful system. No one has turned their trust away from any of the lead marketshare systems so far because of all the crap.

To say that its more risky is nonsensical, since you would be proposing that developers/publishers are actively seeking and have always seeked to take more risk over less risk, since they have always gravitated HEAVILY towards the single lead marketshare machine.

You think Persona 4 on PS2 at MSRP $39.99 is risky on a 120M install base versus spiking the costs through the roof to have it on an install base 1/6 of that? Really?
 
Wait, why does it matter that they have such a great market share DMK?? :whistle2:s

I don't care who the hell has "x" amount of systems sold or "x" amount of games available. If the Wii has 300 games available and only 20 of those are GOOD, with only 10 of THOSE being great..what the hell is the point???

I'm confused as to why you (DMK) only buy what system has the largest marketshare. :whistle2:k

I buy Nintendo stuff because I enjoy Mario games. I really do like those ridiculous spin offs (Mario Baseball, Strikers, Party, etc) and of course the other Nintendo stuff. This is why I have an Xbox and a soon to be PS3.

I am really confused on why you care about the marketshare.. :whistle2:k Do you have stock in Nintendo or something?
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']
The amount of shovelware present now is because the Wii basically has to have 3 consoles worth of it. Last generation they might be able to afford to go GC or XBOX in addition to PS2. Now they are priced out of those markets. Those developers are very sensitive to marketshare and development costs. Fortunately, the ratio doesnt matter, because you dont have to buy those games!

I want an environment that is friendly to low budget developers.[/QUOTE]

Definitely an excellent point at the top there. The Wii has so trampled the 360 and PS3 comparatively numberswise. That wouldn't be an issue in terms of the lion's share of product if most of it would be actual quality exclusive product. Like I said it has only been Sega and Capcom for a while which doesn't cut it.

The last comment I definitely agree with just to get games out like "Sadness" that try new things and challenge boundaries instead of the same Blockbuster crap that permeates the industry right now. I know I keep bringing it up but if the Indrema would've got released this gen. wouldn't look so abysmal at the current time in offerings that really break the mold.
 
I think the Wii fills in the gaps that the 360 and PS3 haven't actually attempted in filling.

similar to what the DSi is trying to do.... but think it will fail hard.

With the transition to Gamecube->Wii, I think it's been great. There are some solid titles on the Gamecube but not many, while the Wii has plenty of titles but not alot of AAA. Some are fine... I think the Wii has family night were we all can sit around and play Kart, Party, Olmpics, then head to Lego Indy/SW/Batman, play some Excite Truck or have fun with Carnival games and Wii Play.

There are some definate shovelware, and by that I mean simiply awful games that only might pique a certain demigraphic... like the Petz line.. Babyz line too.... but that could be found on ALL systems if you try to find it.

I think it's just different for the Wii because Nintendo doesn't HAVE to try to get people to buy it, afterall it's the system first, then the games a close second and if they want to sit it out and let 3rd party join in.... it's still an easy break for Nintendo because they are already printing money... no loss, vs what you can say about the 360 and ps3.

I would want to say, like I think DMK is trying to say, let Nintendo give the freedom to allow ANYTHING to be made simple and fast.... some titles will fall... some will be good... but let the CONSUMER make that decision.

I don't want Nintendo to block any games on what could be good. that would be rediculous, and I would hope that they would allow us to make that decision, it's the publishers fault and on the line, not Nintendo.
 
Largest marketshare has always meant the most good games, though it has always come at the price of having the lowest ratio of good games or overall review averages.

The software that I personally enjoy comes largely from smaller development and would generally not be considered AAA.

As far as development support, the DS might be killing the Wii. Nearly all Japanese development has gone handheld and all the western PC development has gone HD. Its not a good time to be a Japanese focused home console.

I have been moving largely to portables/retro as well. I'm not even that big into the Wii.
 
i think to a big fear fr most of us in the ps3/360 cams respectively is will those companies decided to stay the course and do things how they are and have been or will the wiis sales tempt them into take those shortcuts in the future. last i heard microsoft was looking into making a wii like controller as was sony. i dont care if they add one in and add in some of those types of games but if they go away from what theyre doing now to embrace that completly thats a scary thought.

id like to see some hard numbers though on the price it costs to make each console vs on how much they sell it for.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']If its a problem only successful systems have, then its a problem you WANT to have. Thats just part of having a successful system. No one has turned their trust away from any of the lead marketshare systems so far because of all the crap.

To say that its more risky is nonsensical, since you would be proposing that developers/publishers are actively seeking and have always seeked to take more risk over less risk, since they have always gravitated HEAVILY towards the single lead marketshare machine.

You think Persona 4 on PS2 at MSRP $39.99 is risky on a 120M install base versus spiking the costs through the roof to have it on an install base 1/6 of that? Really?[/QUOTE]

No its a problem that console manufactures want to have not consumers. From a consumer stand point its amazingly stupid to wish for shovel ware. And from a developer one its risky long term.

You used Persona 4 as an example well lets use it again. Do you think Persona 4 would go to the Wii after like 8 years of it being released? Probaly not, because at that point the consumers will have moved on to the new fad. Another good example would be previous atlus games on the PS2 such as SMT, they didnt sell extreamly well in the early shipments? Why is this? Why is it that shadow Hearts didnt? WHy is it that Tales of Symphonia did so well on the GC? Easy, because the Atlus games got burried by shovel ware where as ToS was a drop of water to the parched.

Also this is an incredibly stupid argument to be having. Again who cares whats good for the developers or whats good for the console makers short term like this? Long term whats good for the consumer is whats good for the companies....and whats good for the consumer again is quality games by the boat load. something the Wii fails horribly at. Its the reason why the PS2 was successful despite being the worst of the three graphically and the reason the Playstation did before it. Its the reason every system but the Wii has had long term success(just wait)and its the reason every system but the Wii was respected by gamers.

"DMK banks on potential."
Click to expand...

Yes and it seems to be he has gone stark raving insane over banking wrong. I bought a Wii early on but flipped it for $300 after realizing that Nintendo had decided to go against long term success and quality and towards cashing in on the populary to become another fad.

Largest marketshare has always meant the most good games, though it has always come at the price of having the lowest ratio of good games or overall review averages.
Click to expand...

Untill now. The Wii is either the exception that proves the rule or the first system that proves it isnt a rule. The NES, SNES, PSX and PS2 all dominated.....the Wii is not only not dominating the game competition it isnt even competing. You try and claim you are just into the small indy stuff and not the AAA stuff but guess what Disgaea, Katamari, Braid, Culdcept, Castle Crashers.....they aint on the Wii. PSN and XBLA do a much better job then the Wii at giving the smallest of devs a place to go and the med size guys and franchises are hitting the 360(and here and there the PS3).
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Largest marketshare has always meant the most good games, though it has always come at the price of having the lowest ratio of good games or overall review averages.

The software that I personally enjoy comes largely from smaller development and would generally not be considered AAA.

As far as development support, the DS might be killing the Wii. Nearly all Japanese development has gone handheld and all the western PC development has gone HD. Its not a good time to be a Japanese focused home console.

I have been moving largely to portables/retro as well. I'm not even that big into the Wii.[/QUOTE]

Yes it has but right now I'm not seeing it in good 3rd party exclusive product with the exceptions I have noted a couple times in this thread, those being NON-party products.
I mean I can and can't give the Wii stuff like Baroque since it's on the PS2 also however PS2 doesn't have a lot of the multiplatform 360/PS3 product as well. The thing is those multiplatform games you have no incentive to buy on the Wii since they'll look better on the 360 and PS3.
edit: Yeah Magus you definitely see the problem in game offerings on the marketshare side too.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']
You used Persona 4 as an example well lets use it again. Do you think Persona 4 would go to the Wii after like 8 years of it being released? [/quote]
If everything else mimics the current circumstance, absolutely. Persona 12 will be on the Wii in 8 years if it continues a PS2 domination that long into the game, and the new consoles have higher costs and lower marketshare.

The answer to your question is YES.

However, the more likely scenario is that it goes to whatever the hot handheld is at the time.
 
Ugh I need Persona or a 3D Megaten game on the PS3. I want to scream out seeing how good it looks in 1080p with native textures and such.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']If everything else mimics the current circumstance, absolutely. Persona 12 will be on the Wii in 8 years if it continues a PS2 domination that long into the game, and the new consoles have higher costs and lower marketshare.

The answer to your question is YES.

However, the more likely scenario is that it goes to whatever the hot handheld is at the time.[/QUOTE]

LOFL you really have deluded yourself. Again the Wii is nothing like the PS2. Sales wise maybe its pretty comparable but game wise, support wise and gamer opinion wise your the only one. You are ignoring every historical, logical and current fact known about gaming and focusing on one single trend which is not working in your favor. The PS2 had support of most major developers right from the start....the Wii has next to none. We are now in the third year and can you name a major project from Square, Capcom, Konami or any other big company? Nope....the few AAA exclusives coming are from Nintendo themselves. The PS2 on the other hand had stuff like FFX and MGS known from the start. Again accept that you made a bad purchase and move on. Shit their still so popular you could see it for $300 and get yourself a 360.
 
MSI Magus's posts in this thread are embarassing. The Wii and DS versions of Mario Kart are much better than the Cube/GBA versions, a real improvement in quality. If Galaxy counts as a "port" because it was envisioned very early as a Cube game, then most of the games released for 360 in its first two years of existence also count as "ports".

Fact is, Nintendo's releases for the Wii's first 18 months were stronger than the first 18 months of any system they've had since the SNES. Now everyone's piling on because the last six months have sucked, and the third party situation is still disappointing. Not sure if the latter problem will really be fixed to my satisfaction, but I'm quite sure Nintendo will release plenty more AAA Wii games in the future.
 
Since you brought up the question of Atlus sales, here are some LTD for Atlus/Nippon Ichi (NPD Dec 07).

Do you have any doubt that similar numbers on the HD systems would not kill the company?

Ar Tonelico - 23k
Atelier Iris 1 - 62k
Atelier Iris 2 - 38k
Atelier Iris 3 - 19k
Blade Dancer - 42k
Disgaea - 135k
Dragoneer's Aria - 15k
Etrian Odyssey- 31k
Generation of Chaos - 35k
Grimgrimoire - 17k
Growlanser Generations - 62k (includes the deluxe version)
Growlanser: Heritage of War - 5,708
LaPucelle Tactics - 75k
Makai Kingdom - 50k
Monster Kingdom Jewel Summoner - 9k
Odin Sphere - 101k
Ontamarama (DS) - 3k
Phantom Brave - 59k
Riviera: The Promise Land - 13k
Rule of Rose - 32k
Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner - 33k
Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga - 50k
Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga 2 - 39k
Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne - 54k
Shin Megami Tensei Persona 3 - 71k
Shining Force (gba) - 47k
Soul Nomad - 17k
Spectral Souls - 20k
Tactics Ogre (gba) - 101k
Trauma Center: Second Opinion (Wii) - 216k
Trauma Center: Under The Knife (DS) - 219k
Yggdra Union - 12k

Given that P3 outsold all the previous SMT games, I submit to you that it was not buried under the weight of junk at the time.
 
[quote name='Catchpenny']MSI Magus's posts in this thread are embarassing. The Wii and DS versions of Mario Kart are much better than the Cube/GBA versions, a real improvement in quality. If Galaxy counts as a "port" because it was envisioned very early as a Cube game, then most of the games released for 360 in its first two years of existence also count as "ports".

Fact is, Nintendo's releases for the Wii's first 18 months were stronger than the first 18 months of any system they've had since the SNES. Now everyone's piling on because the last six months have sucked, and the third party situation is still disappointing. Not sure if the latter problem will really be fixed to my satisfaction, but I'm quite sure Nintendo will release plenty more AAA Wii games in the future.[/QUOTE]

Dude Miyamoto himself just a few months before the Wii was announced was talking about Mario Galaxy as the next GC game. We are not talking about games that were early in development but heavy in development. Shit Zelda was even still released on the freaking GC. Most of the 360s stuff was envisioned as a 360 title after the first year same with the PS3. Also again on Mario Kart you can cry all you want but it isnt just my opinion, it was in review after review after review and show after show.

You can spin all you want but the facts are the facts man. The Wiis early stuff(hell even some of its current stuff) was not designed for the Wii but the GC. Nintendo themselves are now saying we are going to just port GC crap with Wii remote on top of it.

"
Given that P3 outsold all the previous SMT games, I submit to you that it was not buried under the weight of junk at the time."
Click to expand...

Yes and P3 was a game that was released extremely late in the systems life with little competition, it has received numerous re releases and had incredible word of mouth. Your list proves my point, the games that have done well are games that were released late in the cycle and Atlus flooded the market with rereleases through Amazon and Rosenquen. And none of those games broke 100k so thats hardly a big success. It again proves my point that great games like P3 and Odin Sphere struggled to even break 100k in sales. The people that bought those games were not the mainstream public it was us real gamers....though I am starting to think you know nothing about being a real gamer given that you simply follow numbers and statistics not actual game play and quality.

Anyways I have wasted far too much time on this. I have debated with you in the past and you simply are not a person that follows logic or reason(at least in a sane way)and this is seriously cutting out of my gameplay time so bye! Little tip, next time you want a debate how about focusing on one point and doing point counter point vs hop scotching to a new point every time your original is shown to be wrong. You started off defending the Wiis games then talked about sales numbers, then ease of development and ended up posting sales numbers for PS2 games.....all you succeded in doing was showing just how weak the Wiis support is.
 
Getting to 100k isnt a struggle. Its a massive success. You have a perverse view of what constitutes a success based on the chart topping million sellers. Now 100k for HD game is another matter.

Atlus/NIS as well as Gust, ideaFactory as well as others have a business model based on very small sales, very small development.

I'll ask it again, and anyone can feel free to answer. Does Atlus/NIS grade sales look viable on the HD systems? Yes or no
 
[quote name='MSI Magus'](Guitar Hero World Tour, Okami, Resident Evil 4, the Lego series - All seen as weaker then the versions on other systems by most gamers(minus RE4).[/QUOTE]
While I agree with you on the Lego series, most people consider the Guitar Hero: World Tour release to be the strongest of the four as well. I don't know enough about Okami to comment.

What's the big deal if Galaxy and Twilight Princess were originally GameCube games? Galaxy looks and plays like a top-end Wii title, and Twilight Princess' use of the Wiimote is fantastic. Third-party developers definitely abused the facility of GameCube-to-Wii conversions, but Nintendo took them seriously.

The seventh Final Fantasy game was originally supposed to be a N64 title. I guess it doesn't count as a top PlayStation game. Oh wells.
 
The wii is the biggest disaster in gaming, i think anyone who is an actual gamer can admit that. When it comes to top tier, great games, the wii does not hold a candle to either of the HD systems. Sure it sells plenty of systems, but its just replacing the board games in the houses of america with the Wii instead. Sorry there Hungry Hungry Hippo, Wii Sports and Wii Play are here to make you never eat again.

Ive owned a wii since launch and hate it. Im waiting for TvC so i can finally blow the dust off of this peice of crap to play it.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Getting to 100k isnt a struggle. Its a massive success. You have a perverse view of what constitutes a success based on the chart topping million sellers. Now 100k for HD game is another matter.

Atlus/NIS as well as Gust, ideaFactory as well as others have a business model based on very small sales, very small development.

I'll ask it again, and anyone can feel free to answer. Does Atlus/NIS grade sales look viable on the HD systems? Yes or no[/QUOTE]

Look I'll PAY $60 for a new domestic copy of SMT on the PS3 and most of you have heard me consistently bitch about the $60 price as bullshit. The thing is I want to drool all over myself seeing that artwork in HD. It means something to see it in HD unlike Halo and the rest. I mean some of those others might be graphically impressive but are usually complete shit artwise.
edit: If cost is really an issue why doesn't Atlus do it directly through Amazon and their site in Japan solely on pre-orders? That's what Konami did or something similar to test the waters of one of the Beatmania IIDX's to see if their cost would be covered and they'd make a profit. I think Atlus would easily get enough people.
 
[quote name='lokizz']i think to a big fear fr most of us in the ps3/360 cams respectively is will those companies decided to stay the course and do things how they are and have been or will the wiis sales tempt them into take those shortcuts in the future. last i heard microsoft was looking into making a wii like controller as was sony. i dont care if they add one in and add in some of those types of games but if they go away from what theyre doing now to embrace that completly thats a scary thought.

id like to see some hard numbers though on the price it costs to make each console vs on how much they sell it for.[/QUOTE]

Look at it this way... say your worst case scenario happened. You would still get your Shooter,Racer, etc games... (Streotyping yes). They would have just become the niche market. As time goes on I find it harder and harder to get or make the time to play through games. I have had two 360's and now currently run with Wii and PS3 (DS & PSP). I have a want list of over 100 games to try out. Some are not great, but I still want to try them. I almost picked up another 360 but figured for now I better stick with what I have and can make time for.

No game will go away, everyone claims adventure games are long gone (point and click not the new adventure "action" games, but Sierra, Lucas Arts). They are not long gone and have quite a few coming out on PC regularly, its just a niche market now.

Unless you live, and breath gaming I cannot imagine any single person could play and enjoy all the games coming out now anyway. Almost everyone on this site complains of a huge backlog... go play them.
 
I think everyone needs to consider that maybe Nintendo knows what it's doing. If they "re-release" Animal Crossing with minimal changes, how many people actually own/played both? There are so many new people they can impress without spending much money. Only the fanboys and hardcore will complain. But with the system selling so well right now, what is Nintendo's incentive to change? I think Nintendo is developing the next Mario/Zelda/ etc., but waiting to release them because: 1) quality takes time to make, 2) wait until sales die down then release a monster to boost sales. Remember we only got 1 good installment in each franchise the last few hardware cycles. Nintendo released some early in the Wii system cycle, and I expect another round to start late next year. Why rush them out if they don't need them to boost sales? The hardcore stuff will come, just not fast enough to keep us from complaining.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']We are now in the third year and can you name a major project from Square, Capcom, Konami or any other big company? Nope....the few AAA exclusives coming are from Nintendo themselves. The PS2 on the other hand had stuff like FFX and MGS known from the start. Again accept that you made a bad purchase and move on. Shit their still so popular you could see it for $300 and get yourself a 360.[/QUOTE]

The thing you are not realizing is that you comparison is off. Did the PS1 have the lead from day 1, or were the developers still on board with the N64 Given Nintendo's past dominance? I don't recall but I bet they were with the N64 and skipped the PS1 until way later. The Wii was the underdog from the beginning, so developers let it slide and bet on the bigger consoles.. It paid off for the 360 but not yet for the PS3.

Its going to take 2-3, maybe even 4 years for the games to come to the Wii. We will see more games, and if the console cycles start to take a bit longer (this is up to Microsoft in my opinion) then we will get to see some more stuff on the Wii...

If the next cycle takes off in the 5 year timeframe... what do you think will happen then. Say Nintendo then steps up to HD will the developers be on board from day 1 given the Wii's success? Things have changed. You keep mentioning history, well its still being written. There is not a company that dominated, then lost the crown, and then returned to the head in regards to system sales. Its never happened before, so who knows.
 
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Seems like a lot of setiment in the thead(didn't read every post) seems to be with the Wii as bad for gaming. I have to disagree here. First off, getting new people into gaming is a difficult thing. Those 50 year old families buying a Wii, they would never have bought an Xbox 360, with or without an avatar on their system. They were never going to play games like GTA4 (at least to break in).

Also, think back, what games brought you into gaming, when you were younger? To me, it was games like Super Mario Brothers, Ms. Pac Man, etc. By today standards, these are not hardcore games. They were very easy to pick up and play through (and many are playable today because of their short term playability).

There is a whole generation of gamers that will break in on Wii Play and Wii Sports. So what? Many of these gamers will want more, and if Nintendo won't provide, they'll move on. It won't be everyone, but it will be some.

I liken it to books. Was Harry Potter bad for reading? It wasn't a literary masterpiece, but many people enjoyed it. After reading those books, many went back to their non reading life, but some stayed around and read books that have more merit. Book reading grew as a whole because of it. That is what the Wii is similar to. I can't knock it for that.
 
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