- LOCK - Format War - HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray - LOCK -

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[quote name='dpatel']How would attach rates be a good way to plan for the future? You just admitted they are not constant, which means they really can't be indicative of future trends.
[/QUOTE]

It's not the only factor that needs to be looked at (there are a ton of factors) but it also doesn't deserve to be brushed off.

Since PS3 is the main Blu player being sold, you can only imagine that it's going to get worse (if PS3 picks up steam with MGS4 or something of that caliber) before it gets better or that since standalones are the only thing for HD-DVD besides the add-on, attach rate on that side should stay more stable. Of course it all leads back to the whole "do you want to bet the bank on gamers" thing but blah I don't want to talk about that right now.

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']And the next Playstation will use Blu-ray, what's your point?

And Microsoft wants to do digital distribution, so don't count on them.[/QUOTE]

What's my point?

The point is that even though standalone players sales are slow right now, there is a point in the future where they can push a ton players just by piggybacking off of Xbox 3 just like Sony is doing with the PS3 and unlike Sony MS won't have to sacrifice their console marketshare (looking to be number 2 again) to do it so that would mean even more could-be players out there. That's the whole growth thing I was talking about, whether it will be too late to counteract the PS3...time will tell.

Also MS wants to do digital distribution but we are a long long time off before they do fully do games that way. DVD won't last until that time comes.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']It's not the only factor that needs to be looked at but it also doesn't deserve to be brushed off.

Since PS3 is the main Blu player being sold, you can only imagine that it's going to get worse (if PS3 picks up steam) before it gets better or that since standalones are the only thing for HD-DVD besides the add-on, attach rate there should stay more stable. Which goes back to the whole "do you want to bet the bank on gamers" thing but blah I don't want to talk about that right now.



What's my point?

The point is that even though standalone players sales are slow right now, there is a point in the future where they can push a ton players just by piggybacking off of Xbox 3 just like Sony is doing with the PS3 and unlike Sony MS won't have to sacrifice their console marketshare (looking to be number 2 again) to do it so that would mean even more could-be players out there.

Also MS wants to do digital distribution but we are a long long time off before they do fully do games that way. DVD won't last until that time comes.[/quote]
First off, it's WAY WAY too early to be counting out Sony right now, yes their sales are abismal, but so where the 360's and look where it is. 2nd The playstation is doing MUCH MUCH Better than the 360 in other parts of the world, and as someone pointed out, outselling the 360 2-1 over in europe, and IIRC Blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD 4-1 in the rest of the world. 3rdly, This war will be over by the time the 360 comes out, and if it's not, they will have a combo drive like Dpatel suggested. And by that time, being able to play hi-def movies won't be the selling point it is now. I mean, is it a selling point that the 360 can play DVD's? No.

And Total sales > Attach rates. As someone pointed out, PS3 has higher attach rates then the Wii. Think that will stop people from making games on the wii? And the gamecube and xbox had better attach rates than the PS2 as well. I mean, there are 100 million PS3's out there. And lets say GTA III sold 10 million on PS2 and 5 million on Xbox. The 5 million out of 40 million is a 1/8 ratio. Where as the PS2 is a 1/10 ratio, but they company still sold more on the PS2 and made more money. That is why I think Attach rates are dumb. Or look at Ninja Gaiden vs Devil May Cry 3. I gaurentee you Ninja Gaiden had a higher attach rate on the Xbox than Devil May Cry 3, but I also gaurentee you that Devil May Cry 3 sold more copies. Who's better off?
 
[quote name='Sporadic']It's not the only factor that needs to be looked at but it also doesn't deserve to be brushed off. [/quote]

Well the reason I brush it off, is because all the information you need about attach rates (how many movies are being sold) are really indicated by total sales. So, attach rates really don't help you too much when you know total sales.

Since PS3 is the main Blu player being sold, you can only imagine that it's going to get worse (if PS3 picks up steam) before it gets better or that since standalones are the only thing for HD-DVD besides the add-on, attach rate there should stay more stable. Which goes back to the whole "do you want to bet the bank on gamers" thing but blah I don't want to talk about that right now.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Even in third place, the PS3 is selling MUCH faster than any standalone, and, as the PS3 drops in price and acquires more games, this will just increase.
 
[quote name='dpatel']Well the reason I brush it off, is because all the information you need about attach rates (how many movies are being sold) are really indicated by total sales. So, attach rates really don't help you too much when you know total sales.[/QUOTE]

Except when a major company is trying to make a decision of which format they want to back. It all goes back to growth and potential. Do you pick the one with 600,000 units and 1.4 million movies sold or the one with 6 million players sold and only 2.3 million movies sold? Of course it's deluded by PS3s so it's harder to make a choice solely off those numbers but it's still worth looking at and something I bet Warner has mulled over.

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']
And Total sales > Attach rates. words Who's better off?[/QUOTE]

That's not a fair comparison.

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']First off, it's WAY WAY too early to be counting out Sony right now, yes their sales are abismal, but so where the 360's and look where it is.[/QUOTE]

I never counted Sony out. I was trying to point out the fact that Sony sacrificed their number 1 spot in the console war for Blu-Ray. The next time around, there will be no need to sacrifice anything which puts MS in the perfect position to add it to their next console and keep their momentum from this gen.

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']F3rdly, This war will be over by the time the 360 comes out,[/QUOTE]

Not likely.

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']Fthey will have a combo drive like Dpatel suggested. [/QUOTE]

No way in hell.

We are going to be lucky to have cheap combo standalones by that point and nobody is going to spend more money to help out their competition.

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']And by that time, being able to play hi-def movies won't be the selling point it is now. I mean, is it a selling point that the 360 can play DVD's? No.[/QUOTE]

HD should finally be hitting the mainstream around the time of the next Xbox so yeah, it will be a pretty big deal kind of like how DVD playback was a selling point for PS2/Xbox.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Except when a major company is trying to make a decision of which format they want to back. It all goes back to growth and potential. Do you pick the one with 600,000 units and 1.4 million movies sold or the one with 6 million players sold and only 2.3 million movies sold? Of course it's deluded by PS3s so it's harder to make a choice solely off those numbers but it's still worth looking at and something I bet Warner has mulled over.[/QUOTE]

Well, like we have both agreed on, those attach rates won't remain constant. So, based on that information, and that information alone, you can't really say for sure. And, considering that BD hardware is moving significantly faster than HD hardware (solely due to the PS3), the low attach rate doesn't seem as devastating as it should.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']No way in hell.

We are going to be lucky to have cheap combo standalones by that point and nobody is going to spend more money to help out their competition.[/QUOTE]

While it is helping out their competition, it is also attracting more consumers. If Sony/MS felt they could still utilize their systems to win the format war, I could understand the PS4/Xbox backing only one format, but I really feel that if a winner isn't determined by the next generation, then I don't think there will ever be a final winner. And since neither console will help a format determine a winner, it would be smarter to support both formats and give consumers a combo player inside, instead of giving them a half assed player that can only play about half of the movies out. I could be wrong though, not saying this will happen. Just speculating.
 
I don't see the next time a Xbox comes out that being able to play DVD's would be a selling point. Hell, the 360 came out 4 years after the PS2 and by then DVD playback wasn't a selling point (but it was on the PS2 for dvd's)
 
[quote name='dpatel']While it is helping out their competition, it is also attracting more consumers. If Sony/MS felt they could still utilize their systems to win the format war, I could understand the PS4/Xbox backing only one format, but I really feel that if a winner isn't determined by the next generation, then I don't think there will ever be a final winner. And since neither console will help a format determine a winner, it would be smarter to support both formats and give consumers a combo player inside, instead of giving them a half assed player that can only play about half of the movies out. I could be wrong though, not saying this will happen. Just speculating.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's attracting more consumers but it's still spending more money to essentially only help the competition. That's not saying we won't ever see a combo drive added to a console but it's just about slim to none that it will be in one during the coming next generation.

Even though there won't be a winner, Sony still wants to push Blu-Ray and Microsoft still doesn't want to pay/use their technology.

Of course, I imagine when combo players become the standard, the studio alliances will start to break down and they will just publish on whatever one provides the cost/protection they want.

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']I don't see the next time a Xbox comes out that being able to play DVD's would be a selling point. Hell, the 360 came out 4 years after the PS2 and by then DVD playback wasn't a selling point (but it was on the PS2 for dvd's)[/QUOTE]

What?

I said DVD playback was a selling point for PS2/Xbox 1 just like I imagine HD playback will be a selling point (of course abated thanks to combo players) for PS4/Xbox 3

We are still pretty far way from HDM hitting mainstream consumption and if you ask me my personal opinion, I think Sony adding Blu-Ray to the PS3 was one of the most half-baked blunders they have ever done. Who knows how much marketshare they pissed away by delaying the PS3 so they could add it along with the added cost plus how bad they undercutted their standalone market by making the PS3 the only sensible Blu player choice.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Wasn't the Matrix supposed to change the tides of the format war, instead of helping maintain the status quo and sending HD DVD fans on a quest to find yet another holy grail in the form of "Transformers"?

How well did the Matrix sell, BTW? Under 10K, I bet.[/QUOTE]

Wasn't Motorstorm,Lair & Warhawk supposed to change the tides of the system war, instead of helping maintain the status quo and sending PS3 fans on a quest to find yet another holy grail in the form of "Heaveny Sword"?

I don't think Warner would make a drastic decision like that now , when they can use Spiderman 3 as a litmus test .
 
[quote name='Sporadic']


What?

I said DVD playback was a selling point for PS2/Xbox 1 just like I imagine HD playback will be a selling point (of course abated thanks to combo players) for PS4/Xbox 3

We are still pretty far way from HDM hitting mainstream consumption.[/quote]

And I think it won't be a selling point because DVD playback wasn't a selling point for Xbox 360, not the Xbox 1.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Yeah, it's attracting more consumers but it's still spending more money to essentially only help the competition. That's not saying we won't ever see a combo drive added to a console but it's just about slim to none that it will be in one during the coming next generation.[/quote]

If they are attracting more consumers, then they are not only helping the competition. I think it will help them more than harm them to do this. I guess neither of can't do much aside from speculate, so we'll just wait and see.

Even though there won't be a winner, Sony still wants to push Blu-Ray and Microsoft still doesn't want to pay/use their technology.
Click to expand...

While true, I feel they both might be better off just including a combo drive. MS technically supported Sony by including DVD drives in their consoles, yet that seemed to work out just fine for them.
 
[quote name='Richlough']Wasn't Motorstorm,Lair & Warhawk supposed to change the tides of the system war, instead of helping maintain the status quo and sending PS3 fans on a quest to find yet another holy grail in the form of "Heaveny Sword"?[/QUOTE]

Nice strawman fallacy :)
 
Warhawk was fun to play, and I don't remember anyone calling a system seller, and Motorstorm did save the PS3 in Europe and Austrialia. And Lair, well seen as a exclusive, nothing that PS3 gamers were counting on too much. Keep in mind, I don't think anyone ever claimed thsoe as system sellers, just good games to defy the fallacy that the PS3 has nothing to play.
 
[quote name='dpatel']While true, I feel they both might be better off just including a combo drive. MS technically supported Sony by including DVD drives in their consoles, yet that seemed to work out just fine for them.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but technically supporting Sony and giving getting a pretty big chunk of cash from the royalties on a silver platter is two completely different stories.

The only way it would happen is if Sony forces MS's hand by makes the first move in announcing a combo for the PS4 but again it's Sony so no real chance in hell.

They want it all and they are going to be damned it they have to settle before they absolutely have to.

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']And I think it won't be a selling point because DVD playback wasn't a selling point for Xbox 360, not the Xbox 1.[/QUOTE]

Do you really believe that we are actually at HDM mainstream consumption on the same level of the PS2 was for DVD?

We aren't even close right now and it took 5 years for DVD to get to that point with no real competition (don't even say Divx or Laserdisc)
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Yeah, but technically supporting Sony and giving getting a pretty big chunk of cash from the royalties on a silver platter is two completely different stories.

The only way it would happen is if Sony forces MS's hand by makes the first move in announcing a combo for the PS4 but again it's Sony so no real chance in hell.

They want it all and they are going to be damned it they have to settle before they absolutely have to.



Do you really believe that we are actually at HDM mainstream consumption on the same level of the PS2 was for DVD?

We aren't even close right now and it took 5 years for DVD to get to that point with no real competition (don't even say Divx or Laserdisc)[/quote]

No, but I just don't see it being a selling point, just a nice feature that it will have. Kind of like PS3 and it's upscaling dvd capability.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']They want it all and they are going to be damned it they have to settle before they absolutely have to.[/QUOTE]

This sort of "I'm fighting the terrible corporate behemoth" argument is particularly silly generally speaking in this context. Tell me the company who made your HD DVD player and let me know how much that helps in fighting for the "lil' guy."

:lol:

At least Sony is consistent in wanting one format available, while MS doesn't seem to care one way or another if HD DVD lives or dies. If it dies and takes BR with it, they're fuckin' in like flynn for digital distribution of movie content. Hurray!

EDIT: :lol: at the reaction to the new front page deal: http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157629 All day long and 22 responses? That's a lot of interested folks, I'd say! :rofl:
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I suck dick like flynn Hurray!
[/QUOTE]

I like cutting post down too. :applause:

It has nothing to do with Sony being a "terrible corporate behemoth" (even though they are) but with Sony actually being that way when it comes to stuff like this.

You really think they would give Toshiba/DVD Forum the satisfaction of using their technology in Sony's Trojan horse?
 
[quote name='Sporadic']I like cutting post down too. :applause:

It has nothing to do with Sony being a "terrible corporate behemoth" (even though they are) but with Sony actually being that way when it comes to stuff like this.

You really think they would give Toshiba/DVD Forum the satisfaction of using their technology in Sony's Trojan horse?[/QUOTE]

Ah, the old "so they aren't, but they are" defense. And old and odd strategy, to be sure.

I'll let your words say the rest of it. Unchanged, which, apparently, you don't care to do with mine. Classy.

[quote name='guyver2077']you need to shh and pick one up already..stop trying to analyze everything and just spoil yourself..[/QUOTE]

Oh, I totally did. Picked up Clockwork Orange and Shining last week, and the Spiderman box set should arrive tomorrow.

That's lavish, toots. ;)
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Ah, the old "so they aren't, but they are" defense. And old and odd strategy, to be sure.

I'll let your words say the rest of it. Unchanged, which, apparently, you don't care to do with mine. Classy.[/QUOTE]

pinkelephanttl4.jpg
 
[quote name='Sporadic']
pinkelephanttl4.jpg
[/QUOTE]

This must be another one of those facts that you claim I ignore.

So, for the record, I'm totally not ignoring this.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']:lol: at the reaction to the new front page deal: http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157629 All day long and 22 responses? That's a lot of interested folks, I'd say! :rofl:[/QUOTE]

That's because most people already took advantage of it when Best Buy had the deal where you could get 2 free HD DVD's priced at $34.99 or lower with any HD DVD player. So people were getting the 360 add-on, Heroes, and the two free movies for $180.

Then, someone found out that boxsets could be used in place of the two free movies thanks to a glitch in the system. They could then get the add-on, Heroes, Planet Earth, and Matrix Collection, all for $180, plus the 5 free HD DVD's via mail already included.
 
Haha, yeah I saw that.
There isn't a K-Mart within 100 miles of Dallas.

I wish there were though, they have great clearance prices on games.
 
There's a K-Mart a couple miles from here. I bought shoelaces in there...once.

It's where people go to die. One of the worst stores I've ever been in.
 
wow that is blockbuster.. i work right next to one..and theres also one near my home..


on my way now!!!!!

honestly.. i doubt they even have hi def

i remember as a kid it was like the only place i would go to get games.. its always been close to home and im suprised its never closed..
 
Sally said third-party research indicated Toshiba’s market share of next-generation players on both formats was now at about 60%. She went on to say that the format had experienced a significant unit upturn with sales of HD DVD-enabled PC laptops.

If that's the case why are they getting their ass handed to them in sales? :)

Either way, All that saying is that K-mart will only be carrying HD-DVD stand alones, which is nothing newsworthy. But ZOMG HD-DVD will win now. :)

And KMart will probably just go bankrupt again soon anyways. :)
 
[quote name='mykevermin']BLOCKBUSTER NEWS: K-MART HAS GONE HD DVD EXCLUSIVE!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:[/QUOTE]


It's not earth shattering but it's better than the WB/Twister news , unless you're Bill Paxton waiting for a royalty check .
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']Sally said third-party research indicated Toshiba’s market share of next-generation players on both formats was now at about 60%. She went on to say that the format had experienced a significant unit upturn with sales of HD DVD-enabled PC laptops.

If that's the case why are they getting their ass handed to them in sales? :)

Either way, All that saying is that K-mart will only be carrying HD-DVD stand alones, which is nothing newsworthy. But ZOMG HD-DVD will win now. :)

And KMart will probably just go bankrupt again soon anyways. :)[/QUOTE]

Who the hell is Sally?
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']

And KMart will probably just go bankrupt again soon anyways. :)[/QUOTE]

Don't underestimate the power of the middle-aged and Sears .
 
[quote name='dallow']I want Montgomery Ward back.[/QUOTE]

Montgomery Ward's was so shitty. Why would you want them back? The only thing I ever remember buying there was a Huffy bike.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']Montgomery Ward's was so shitty. Why would you want them back? The only thing I ever remember buying there was a Huffy bike.[/quote]Nostalgia.
I think I got my NES there.

And I remember playing the CD-i and Tetris on GameBoy there for the first time.

They were shitty though, no doubt.
 
Not THE first (as in it was never the only movie available), but it was one of the US launch titles, yes. I picked it up along with Eraser, A Time To Kill and The Fugitive the day I bought my DVD player.
 
First movie I ever owned on DVD was Air Force One followed by The World is Not Enough. I remember those days.... We still have our original DVD player. And it was Panasonic!
 
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