LOST Season 5 Discussion - 5/13: The Incident -

Thanks for the screencap. I'm pretty sure that my mouth was slightly agape when they showed that.

I'm still going back and forth on Jacob being Locke or Aaron. One bit of evidence towards that is that on more than one occasion, I've read that we, as of the end of Season Four, had already seen who he is. I believe Michael Emerson even mentioned that in an interview.

Speaking of Ben, more and more, it seems like the inability for women to have children conceived on the island during his reign is a direct punishment of some sort upon him. I doubt it starts before The Purge, as he's just a troubled kid in a bad situation when he arrives. He's obsessed with trying to 'rectify' what happened to his own mother, and he can't. It makes me wonder if Locke has a particular obsession (being a leader? a hunter?) that the island won't ever let him totally achieve for one of his transgressions on or off it.
 
[quote name='jollydwarf']Ok! What was that Statue with the four toes!! TELL ME

It looked Anubis from the back. If that's true...that's very telling, methinks. Very telling.
[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing. Also, wasn't the necklace that Amy took from Paul an Ankh?

Ankh is usually associated with eternal life no?
Maybe there was a reason the others wanted Paul? I mean what other reason would they have for wanting a dead body?
 
well there have been some type of heiroglyphics all over the island on various ruins. and goodspeed did have the ankh on as well. the statue does kind of look like anubis, the god of the underworld... man this season has been great.
 
[quote name='darthbudge']
Maybe there was a reason the others wanted Paul? I mean what other reason would they have for wanting a dead body?[/QUOTE]

That was for justice. Remember Richard's comment to Sawyer about how he was going to deal with his people's need for justice right before they went to tell Paul's wife that they needed his body?

i.e. Richard had a body so he could tell his people the Dharma person who had killed their 2 men had been killed.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']That was for justice. Remember Richard's comment to Sawyer about how he was going to deal with his people's need for justice right before they went to tell Paul's wife that they needed his body?

i.e. Richard had a body so he could tell his people the Dharma person who had killed their 2 men had been killed.[/quote]

I guess I didn't think about the fact that if Richard took a body back that it would prove there was some justice. I was just thinking, why would they want a dead body? Richard could have just came back saying that killed some of Dharma's people, or made some other deal.
 
Here's a new question from last night's episode. If Horace is having a baby with Amy, where did his wife Olivia go?

Here's something else I found from a Google search (I was looking to see how many toes Anubis had). Posted as a comment to an article on The Tail Section nearly a full year ago. This guy apparently knew his shit:

"We have seen the timer flip to what look like Egyptian hieroglyphics after the 108 minutes, and we have seen the four-toed statue remnant, which might have represented Anubis, god of the underworld and patron of lost souls in Egyptian mythology. Anubis is a jackal, a canine creature/god said to accompany souls on their journey into the afterlife, and to protect the deceased and their tombs. In his canine form, his back paws have four toes, his front paws have five. Anubis is also said to weigh the hearts of the deceased to assess their sinfulness. He is sometimes associated with Cerberus, the watchdog of Hades in Greek mythology, who allows souls to enter but guards against any leaving. Cerberus is seen on the blast door map, and Lost creators have said that Cerberus “might have just been the Dharma Initiative’s name for the monster”. Curiously, we now see Ben working at, or somehow associated with a place where canines are housed. And what of Vincent’s connection then? I also suspect that the “temple” and the “old place” to which Ben refers may be related to this mythological thread."
 
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[quote name='jaso']Here's a new question from last night's episode. If Horace is having a baby with Amy, where did his wife Olivia go?

Here's something else I found from a Google search (I was looking to see how many toes Anubis had). Posted as a comment to an article on The Tail Section nearly a full year ago. This guy apparently knew his shit:

"We have seen the timer flip to what look like Egyptian hieroglyphics after the 108 minutes, and we have seen the four-toed statue remnant, which might have represented Anubis, god of the underworld and patron of lost souls in Egyptian mythology. Anubis is a jackal, a canine creature/god said to accompany souls on their journey into the afterlife, and to protect the deceased and their tombs. In his canine form, his back paws have four toes, his front paws have five. Anubis is also said to weigh the hearts of the deceased to assess their sinfulness. He is sometimes associated with Cerberus, the watchdog of Hades in Greek mythology, who allows souls to enter but guards against any leaving. Cerberus is seen on the blast door map, and Lost creators have said that Cerberus “might have just been the Dharma Initiative’s name for the monster”. Curiously, we now see Ben working at, or somehow associated with a place where canines are housed. And what of Vincent’s connection then? I also suspect that the “temple” and the “old place” to which Ben refers may be related to this mythological thread."[/quote]

Wow, that guy needs to post here. He has certainly got things more figured out than any of us.
 
I knew they were going to show that statue. You could tell by how everyone was looking up and it was promised we'd find out more about "the giant foot". But it was a punch in the stomach to see some back angle, meaning they yet again "answered" a question without answering it at all.

Maybe the Others need a conduit for Jacob. That Christian never was Jacob until his body was used as a temporary "husk". Could be Paul was Jacob for a while. Or it could be the eternal life theory connects with the always-ageless Richad Alpert. That the bodies related to his secret rather than the secret of Jacob.
 
Well, they kind of answered the statue question. First of all, there actually was a full statue, and more importantly, as a few of us discussed, it seems to be the Egyptian god Anubis. I would say that there's still a possible twist as to the frontal view of the statue revealing that one of the characters is Anubis, but seeing as how that god is a jackal from the waist up....

I guess there's still the question of who constructed it and when, and how most of it gets destroyed, but it was cool to see something fairly revealing. And personally speaking, I'm glad it wasn't a 'bodice-ripper' glorified version of Sawyer in some garb that would suit Achilles well. I really think that foot wound he suffered earlier in the season was a rare LOST red herring.
 
other forums think it could be any number of egyptian diety, and theres a good case for some. another thing to keep in mind, the islands exit is in tunisia, which is right next to egypt, but ancient egyptian influence would have spread to ancient tunisia. so it appears that ancient egypt and the island are highly connected. im just wondering when they are going to find the star gate and kurt russel shows up.

other things...

horace=egyptian god
richard alpert, R.A.=egyptian god
 
Man, so now they have to find out a way to make the time present, and then find a way off the island? Sheesh. Then Ben vs. Locke, who knows how thats going to go down.

I bet we're going to see the Losties experience what was happening during the Purge.
 
[quote name='kilm']So they really set up the Hostiles/Others vs. Dharma... Now it's a question of how they escape Ben's genocide... if they do.[/quote][quote name='shinryuu']I bet we're going to see the Losties experience what was happening during the Purge.[/quote]
Am I missing something? They're in 1977...the "Purge" doesn't happen until 1992.
 
Them being in '77 creates an inconsistency. Would realistically be the very early 80's because Daniel saw a young Charlotte (unless he was just hallucinating) and she was born in '79. I think. So if that was Charlotte, then young Ben is definitely already there with his father, so is adult Ben, so there's probably going to be one hell of a paradox as a result of that.

I wonder if Horace's son is some sort of major character. Maybe Desmond?
 
[quote name='crunchb3rry']I wonder if Horace's son is some sort of major character. Maybe Desmond?[/quote]

If the little red-head was supposed to be Charlotte, woluldn't that make Desmond significantly younger than her then? I think he's too old to fit the timeframe, but it at least does raise the question of where Desmond comes from.
 
[quote name='crunchb3rry']I wonder if Horace's son is some sort of major character. Maybe Desmond?[/quote]

[quote name='jaso']If the little red-head was supposed to be Charlotte, woluldn't that make Desmond significantly younger than her then? I think he's too old to fit the timeframe, but it at least does raise the question of where Desmond comes from.[/quote]

If the theory that Faraday, Charlotte and Miles were born on the island is true, then only Faraday's birth is still unrevealed. With that in mind, I think the baby boy is Faraday. That would mean that Amy is a young Eloise Hawking. Maybe Amy changed her name to protect her and her son after they left the island. I don't think it's out of reach to say that Amy is about 30 years old, making her around 64 in 2008.

Good episode. The return of Kate is going to be hard on Juliet's heart. Sawyer went googly eyes when she walked out from behind Hugo.

I guess Alpert's eyeliner makes more sense after the whole Anubis/Egypt connection.
 
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[quote name='emg28']If the theory that Faraday, Charlotte and Miles were born on the island is true, then only Faraday's birth is still unrevealed. With that in mind, I think the baby boy is Faraday. That would mean that Amy is a young Eloise Hawking. Maybe Amy changed her name to protect her and her son after they left the island. I don't think it's out of reach to say that Amy is about 30 years old, making her around 64 in 2008.

Good episode. The return of Kate is going to be hard on Juliet's heart. Sawyer went googly eyes when she walked out from behind Hugo.

I guess Alpert's eyeliner makes more sense after the whole Anubis/Egypt connection.[/quote]

I was given to believe the gun-toting Other we met in Jughead (Ellie) was the young Eloise Hawking. That makes more sense to me.
 
[quote name='emg28']If the theory that Faraday, Charlotte and Miles were born on the island is true, then only Faraday's birth is still unrevealed. With that in mind, I think the baby boy is Faraday. That would mean that Amy is a young Eloise Hawking. Maybe Amy changed her name to protect her and her son after they left the island. I don't think it's out of reach to say that Amy is about 30 years old, making her around 64 in 2008.[/quote]

Doesn't Eloise have an accent, though? And she was blonde.

[quote name='emg28']I guess Alpert's eyeliner makes more sense after the whole Anubis/Egypt connection.[/quote]

This is what I thought, too. Then I read this:

http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/200...feed-lost-'Lost':+Richard+Alpert+vs.+eyeliner
 
I like the theory that Alpert was a passenger on The Black Rock. The ship was all but forgotten until Sawyer brought it up again...and then Alpert waltzes out of the jungle.
 
Found this while doing some more Web digging. Actually makes a lot more sense than Anubis:

2009-03-05_155047_14194.jpg
 
I don't think the four-toed thing is a rare thing for staues from this time period. I thought this comparison was interesting for the fact that the headdress matches, they're both (I'm guessing) holding ankhs in both hands, and Tawaret is a fertility goddess.
 
Maybe July 2, 1979 is when Charlotte is legally recognized as being born, but in actuality, it's just a date (shortly?) after her family leaves the island. It has to happen when she's very young, after all (hence her trouble remembering any of it as definitely happening). Problem is, she already looks to be about 2-3 in 1974, so even if her family left early in '79, that would make her 7-8, which is a little too old to not remember significant life experiences on the island. My guess is that she's gone by '77 at the latest.

And I can't imagine for the life of me who Horace and Amy's kid might end up being. That's definitely a 1977 birth, so without time-jumping tricks, that would make the boy 27 in 2004. There doesn't seem to be a pre-existing character that could be their child without making the audience scream "BULLSHIT!!" at the writers. Or "Save that 'ish' for Heroes!", at least.

P.S. It'd be a good laugh if he ended up being Keamy, though. That would be just the right kind of ridiculous to work for me.
 
charlotte does have 2 sisters, so maybe it was just one of her sisters. it seems like too big of an oversight for the lost writers to miss, charlotte being 7-8 years older than she actually is.
 
Unless Boone was the child? We know Shannon's father, but not Boone's. Probably too much of a stretch and would just create more questions since it's pretty much been established Boone's mother is his real mother.

I think it's Ethan. And that we'll see a lot more Others revealed as ex-Dharma, like Tom.
 
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Ethan in 2004 seems to be at least in his mid-30s. I really doubt it's him, or any of the other Others that ended up antagonizing the 815 survivors over the first three seasons. I mean, if they want to pass off an actor who looked significantly older than 27 as that age, that's their 'creative license' prerogative, but I'm pretty confident that the viewer consensus would find it weak and cheap. And this show has an excellent track record for avoiding those kinds of missteps.

But that's not why I'm here. Late last night, the thought occurred to me that perhaps Horace was the one behind the murder of Paul and the capture of Amy by the two Hostiles. Now, I'm not saying that Richard was even in on this, but we've seen that there is a tenuous truce and that some sort of protocol exists where a representative of one's group can visit the other group. Perhaps Horace clandestinely found these two, and had them do the deed for some sort of compensation or motive. In bullet point form, I present the following thoughts:

--We know this show is not only about causal time loops, but events being echoed throughout Time. Sawyer might have been seeing a situation similar to when he had Charlie bag Sun over the head. In other words, those Others might have been capturing her only to have Horace save her somehow in a staged effort.

--Why does Horace want to kick Sawyer and friends off the island so quickly? Is he afraid they'll reveal some details that might implicate him? And do they ultimately get to stay because he quickly becomes convinced that they don't know 'too much'?

--Horace being suicidally hammered and sticking dynamite in his mouth like Ahnuld-approved stogies seemed to be awfully severe behavior for having a fight over the discovery of a necklace in a drawer. Maybe some major guilt? Maybe he was chucking the dynamite aimlessly in the direction of where he would meet the Others as anger for their effing his plan up?

--Horace, to me, represents the hypocrisy that exists in the stereotypical hippie. What I mean is that he at times exudes a lot of benevolence and tolerance, but that's all just external, and he hasn't really worked enough to become truly enlightened to move past--or at least quickly defuse--his darker innate impulses. And since he's the apparent Dharma leader of the moment, I tend to think that this represents the whole operation.

--Finally, going back to last season, revisit Locke's dream/vision with Horace in it. Horace was perpetually chopping down the same tree to build the getaway cabin (ultimately Jacob's) for him and "the Mrs." Was this simply a vision of Locke's, or was Locke actually consciously in the afterlife, seeing Horace's eternal punishment? It would be fitting if he indeed did cause the death of Paul to get to Amy. Remember, the blast door warned "Liberte te ex inferis" ("Save yourself from Hell"). The more I watch this show, the more I think that Hell isn't a Biblical fiery pit, but instead your conscious being permanently unstuck in Time, living out some sort of self-inflicted punishment over and over and over, being truly stuck in an unbreakable loop. After all, the Room 23 brainwashing film also warned that "We are the cause of our own suffering."

Well, just a thought.
 
I like this theory a lot. Here's a little more info to stoke the flame. Ben appeared inocuous at first, but then did a complete 180 when he showed how he could manipulate his way out of any situation (when he was captured by the Losties). During the purge, I seem to remember him saying something like he said to Locke when he killed him about sincerely regretting what he had to do. Maybe he modeled himself after Horace; he didn't just gradually become evil, it would make more sense for him to learn evil and manipulation from someone else.

Also, if Horace were in fact behind the murder of Paul, remember that Ben did the same thing to keep Juliet for himself.

And, Jollydawrf, I like the theory of Hell being a time loop. If you've got a couple of free hours and a Netflix account, you can stream a pretty sweet Japanese movie called Afterlife that approaches the idea in much the same way of time being an eternal memory.
 
I also think that given what Faraday has mentioned about Desmond being "uniquely and miraculously special" (quoting from memory) and Desmond's hair color, length, and skin complexion, it might not be too much of a stretch to think that for at least some, before the show is over, he will save them from such a "loop."

Of course that means Locke won't be the only one to have to make a sacrifice...but I think none of us would be surprised about that.
 
[quote name='jaso']
Also, if Horace were in fact behind the murder of Paul, remember that Ben did the same thing to keep Juliet for himself.
[/quote]

I don't think he really wanted her for himself. I think he wanted to "lay claim to her" so that she'd be off limits for any other male and Ben would afterwards have no romantic relationship with her. He set it up so Goodwin would die so that Juliet, the primary scientist studying the birth failures, would not get knocked up by Goodwin. Same reason he didn't want Karl with Alex, not because he disapproved of Karl but instead so she would not get pregnant and die from it. Ben killed Goodwin for the good of the camp.

I theorized a long time ago that the island was purgatory, and that you have to redeem yourself to "die" and be freed from it. But the show creators have said the island is not any kind of hell or purgatory. Then again, if people found out the secret so early, maybe they had to lie their asses off to at least keep it a surprise for some people. I remember when they said there would be no time travel...yet now we have time travel.
 
Yeah, and the possibility of them doing such lying is why I'm not convinced that Evangeline Lilly isn't going to be off the show by season's end. I just hope that if she's leaving sooner than later, it's not something that will seriously affect their grand scheme, but if she's becoming difficult, they might not have a choice. It would be a serious blow to the ratings in terms of those who primarily watch for the Jater/Skater debate. I don't think that's any of 'us,' though.

Kate being a 316 proxy for Claire (if Jack actually knocked her up on the eve of the flight) might just be the last truly meaningful thing she does. Who knows?
 
Well, even though it's now officially "sweeps week", I kind of doubt it's that. Not having your (non-reality show) ace during that time on doesn't make much sense, anyway. But again, I have trouble chalking it up to that. Maybe I'm missing another factor?

My guess is that it's a production schedule issue. Until a few weeks before the season premiere, I was under the impression that the season wouldn't start until February. Obviously, that got bumped up. If so, probably ABC's call. Hey, I'll gladly take an earlier start if it means a one-week hiatus. I just hate it when I have to wait the extra week right before the season finale.
 
Checked TV Guide, doesn't seem to be anything on in that time slot that would make them want to take a weak off, and they're just airing a Lost rerun. Odd.
 
[quote name='jollydwarf']Well, even though it's now officially "sweeps week", I kind of doubt it's that. Not having your (non-reality show) ace during that time on doesn't make much sense, anyway. But again, I have trouble chalking it up to that. Maybe I'm missing another factor?

My guess is that it's a production schedule issue. Until a few weeks before the season premiere, I was under the impression that the season wouldn't start until February. Obviously, that got bumped up. If so, probably ABC's call. Hey, I'll gladly take an earlier start if it means a one-week hiatus. I just hate it when I have to wait the extra week right before the season finale.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I figure it must be some production problem or something but still kinda stinks. I wish carlton or damon would just gives a reason, because it's a letdown missing a week for sure.
 
If pressed for a straightforward answer, especially on The Official LOST Podcast, I guarantee you that they'd say that it was because Ezra James Sharkington ate the script.

Anyone who listens to those two regularly knows I'm barely joking there.
 
[quote name='jollydwarf']If pressed for a straightforward answer, especially on The Official LOST Podcast, I guarantee you that they'd say that it was because Ezra James Sharkington ate the script.

Anyone who listens to those two regularly knows I'm barely joking there.[/QUOTE]

Or maybe they made a pair of pants out of the script.
 
On a side note, I was curious to what you guys thought...are the other survivors of 815, from the tail section, also going through time and now stuck in the 70s? Like the flight attendant Cindy and the children that the others took (as seen in season 2).
 
Cindy and those children (Emma and Zack) are Others now...Richard and the other Others weren't time-travelling with the flashes, so I wouldn't guess Cindy or those children were either.
 
An updated episode list, including episode names, airdates, and some featured characters.

March 18th, Episode 9:
Namaste
Featured character:
Ben
March 25th, Episode 10:
He's Our You
Featured character:
Sayid
April 1st, Episode 11:
Whatever Happened, Happened
Featured character:
Kate
April 8th, Episode 12:
Dead is Dead
April 15th, Episode 13:
Some Like it Hoth
April 22nd, CLIP SHOW: TBA
April 29th, Episode 14:
The Variable
May 6th, Episode 15:
Follow the Leader
May 13th, Episode 16:
Season 5 Finale: TBA Part 1
May 20th, Episode 17:
Season 5 Finale: TBA Part 2
 
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[quote name='MisterModest']An updated episode list, including episode names, airdates, and some featured characters.

March 18th, Episode 9:
Namaste
March 25th, Episode 10:
He's Our You
Featured character:
Sayid
April 1st, Episode 11:
Whatever Happened, Happened
Featured character:
Kate
April 8th, Episode 12:
Dead is Dead
April 15th, Episode 13:
Some Like it Hoth
April 22nd, CLIP SHOW: TBA
April 29th, Episode 14:
The Variable
May 6th, Episode 15:
Follow the Leader
May 13th, Episode 16:
Season 5 Finale: TBA Part 1
May 20th, Episode 17:
Season 5 Finale: TBA Part 2
[/QUOTE]

Dang, so there's one more week off on April 22nd.
 
They did say they were going to run the season without breaks, but I guess they needed two breaks to reach May sweeps, partially because of the two episode premiere. I'm fine with it, it's the shortest break we've had. By the way, the episode centric for Episode 9 is
Ben
.
 
Well, pretend like tonight is a meta-episode about the 'time loop' theory.

Anyway, speaking of loops....

What if Locke was on that canoe (or kayak or whatever!) that was chasing the time-skippers? Now, I'm not saying that he was the one who got shot, but what if the 'resurrected' Locke learns something horrible about his island decisions prior to that point in Time happening, and tries to get the group with his past self to stop before it's too late? Admittedly, it seems like kind of a stretch, simply on the account of a.) I doubt he'd want someone shooting a gun at them, but maybe someone like Caesar takes measures into his own hands and b.) that would mean that the 'future' and forewarned Locke would conveniently not be able to catch the group with his past self before they left the decimated future beach camp.

Or maybe he knew that he couldn't actually meet himself, so they had to lag behind enough to not be identifiable.

Ugh. My head.
 
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