Mass Effect 3 Discussion Thread

[quote name='gotdott']I hate Tali so I don't mind[/QUOTE]
That's fine, but you're in the minority. She is a fan favorite, and instead of doing anything meaningful for all that build-up over the years, you get a stock photo and Jessica Chobot in the game.

HEY GUYZ SHE LICKED A PSP!!!!
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']Wow. I mean really guys, I can't wait for this "I am so angry about the ending and everyone who disagrees with me sux. I ban them," phase is over.

At this point both sides seem pants on head retarded.[/QUOTE]


I put up a "Days passed without mentioning Mass Effect 3's ending" sign at work and it's been at zero since two days after the game's launch. I'm not on either side of the damned argument, I just don't want to hear about it anymore.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Hey, I'd let her lick my PSP anytime...well, maybe not...it's the white Darth Vader one, and I don't want her messing up...oh, nevermind...she can lick it...[/QUOTE]

Get it on camera and it would certainly increase its value.
 
[quote name='IanKazimer']I put up a "Days passed without mentioning Mass Effect 3's ending" sign at work and it's been at zero since two days after the game's launch. I'm not on either side of the damned argument, I just don't want to hear about it anymore.[/QUOTE]

Hope you're patient then...we still have yet to hear what "content initiatives" Bioware has planned...then the arguments will pop back up once the content is actually released...then "game journalists" across the net are going to post article after article debating whatever Bioware does. This ending's gonna be discussed into May, easily.
 
COD, Fable, Madden, etc etc. These games pretty much just shit on gamers all day long yet each one of them makes cartoon bags of money.

Here is my prediction...gamers are pretty much all talk, patheticly so. I dont understand this fake outrage and pretending that you are somehow above it. You are so outrage....but will still go ahead and finish a insanity run, play the MP, hold on to it just in case the DLC is free (it wont/shouldnt be) fake outrage because of it, still purchase it, cry some more, run to the nearest forum and bitch again....then in about a year you will uhhh let me guess....buy the next bioware game.

Gamers have no backbone at all...you would think that ever company would be hurting for money with all of the "I HATE EA I NEVER BUYING ANOTHER ONE OF THEIR GAMES" O Look? They accidentally sold a billion dollars in digital socks. Ya...good luck with that outrage plan.

That Tassi is again pants on head retarded. "Bioware should be listening and release the DLC for free because people are going to be mad" $$$$a Please. If you are really that mad than dont accept any more Bioware swag, do not purchase any more Bioware related goodness and truly boycott them....but we all know virtually no one will do such a thing.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']Wow. I mean really guys, I can't wait for this "I am so angry about the ending and everyone who disagrees with me sux. I ban them," phase is over.

At this point both sides seem pants on head retarded.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Soodmeg']...I am insane.[/QUOTE]

I can't wait for this "Soodmeg is ruining my thread" phase to be over. Bitching about bitching is still bitching. Please do something other than talk down a large percentage of the active members of this thread and the BioWare forums* while simultaneously attempting to launch yourself onto the highest of horses and make your rampant finger-waving that much more grotesque. You'd think a few deleted posts so far would get your attention.

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[quote name='IanKazimer']I put up a "Days passed without mentioning Mass Effect 3's ending" sign at work and it's been at zero since two days after the game's launch. I'm not on either side of the damned argument, I just don't want to hear about it anymore.[/QUOTE]Perhaps your "Days passed without checking the ME3 thread multiple times per day" count is hurting your chances of moving past zero?

joke2.png
:lol: (sorry, I needed a good segue)

There's no way this issue dies down until there are a round of announcements made by BioWare with specific details regarding their work post-launch. Hopefully PAX will bring us some much needed good news.

* - yes, I defended the BioWare forums
 
I have no deleted post.


The bitching to talking ratio is severally screwed, since no one actually wants to talk about the game anymore I am forced to just talk about the bitching. I ruined your thread bitch you ruined mine with this constant ending crap...been talking about for weeks now.
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']Perhaps your "Days passed without checking the ME3 thread multiple times per day" count is hurting your chances of moving past zero?

joke2.png
:lol: (sorry, I needed a good segue)

There's no way this issue dies down until there are a round of announcements made by BioWare with specific details regarding their work post-launch. Hopefully PAX will bring us some much needed good news.

* - yes, I defended the BioWare forums[/QUOTE]


Hahaha, it totally is. Thankfully at the office we've reached the point of levity about the whole thing. We often pick where we'll go to lunch based on whether their logos are red, green, or blue.

The real record for the sign is -1, as someone in the quad opposite of me started going off as I was MAKING the thing!
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']COD, Fable, Madden, etc etc. These games pretty much just shit on gamers all day long yet each one of them makes cartoon bags of money.

Here is my prediction...gamers are pretty much all talk, patheticly so. I dont understand this fake outrage and pretending that you are somehow above it. You are so outrage....but will still go ahead and finish a insanity run, play the MP, hold on to it just in case the DLC is free (it wont/shouldnt be) fake outrage because of it, still purchase it, cry some more, run to the nearest forum and bitch again....then in about a year you will uhhh let me guess....buy the next bioware game.

Gamers have no backbone at all...you would think that ever company would be hurting for money with all of the "I HATE EA I NEVER BUYING ANOTHER ONE OF THEIR GAMES" O Look? They accidentally sold a billion dollars in digital socks. Ya...good luck with that outrage plan.

That Tassi is again pants on head retarded. "Bioware should be listening and release the DLC for free because people are going to be mad" $$$$a Please. If you are really that mad than dont accept any more Bioware swag, do not purchase any more Bioware related goodness and truly boycott them....but we all know virtually no one will do such a thing.[/QUOTE]

Which is worse people who complain about the ending or people who complain about people complain about the ending?
 
Oh yea, this one is my favorite, he actually agrues that video games are NOT art beacuse of the way the fans disproportionately rage about things. I believe I said the same thing earlier in the thread.

Its very well written I suggest given it a read then ya?
A mature audience for an art form would never do this, which shows us what a predicament gaming is in. To further the HBO analogy, compare this situation to another famously dissatisfying ending of a beloved series: the final episode of “The Sopranos.” Although many fans complained that the episode was confusing and inconclusive, no one seriously suggested that HBO reshoot the show. Sophisticated audiences understand that while they might hate any given plot decision, they ultimately have to respect the creative wishes of those who made the thing great in the first place; this is what gives the medium integrity. Of course, Mass Effect-style audience pandering is far from unique—movie studios routinely focus-test multiple endings, and even Arthur Conan Doyle undid his bumping-off of Sherlock Holmes because of fans’ pleadings—but we tend to view such creative flip-flopping with disdain. Real art sticks to its guns.
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http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2012/03/mass-effects-fans.html
 
BioWare's stance has always been that their fans had a voice in the creative process. They've said again and again that they listen to feedback, consider it, and use it to change and refine their products. Garrus and Tali became potential love interests in Mass Effect 2 specifically because fans requested it. They acknowledged the problems in Dragon Age II with generic level design and enemies spawning in waves and took care to design the DLCs in a different way.

None of that is to say that they owe the fans anything in particular or that they "have to" change anything about Mass Effect 3 just because fans want it. But it hasn't been true in the past that their position was "This is our art; take it or leave it but we don't care what you want to change about it." Why should that suddenly become their position now?

Because somebody at the New Yorker who makes derisive jokes about Mountain Dew Game Fuel says so?
 
Well to that I say...how much do you want then? Again...this is my exact argument....instead of being happy that a developer actually listened to you on numerous occasions you become irate when one or two things dont go your way.

Give an inch take a million fucking miles apparently. So they dont get to make any decisions about the game unless they clear it with the fans first? Why, because they did you a favor in letting you have some input. This is the same thing with athletes when people forget that they are human and they have their own lives, dreams and wishes. I guess I dont get why some people think they are more important than what they really are. At the end of the day you are just a guy playing a video game...you are not anyone boss, or a share holders, how much "right" do you think you have to the game? (not you but everyone in general)

I wish I can find that exact quote, it was from a developer a while ago, he basically said listening to gamers is the worst thing anyone could possible do. Because like a 5 year old no matter how much you give them they will never be happy and always want more and each decision made will only be met with completely rage.

Bah I probably butchered that need to find it somewhere.

Also The New Yorker as about as much credit as Forbes mag in the video game department. Lets not play the game of...I dont like what they are saying so I am going to discredit their entire company....although that seems to be par for the course here lately.

EDIT:

Also, whats the end game here? That they make a new ending? What if no one is happy with that one...do they do it a second time? Third time?

Hmmm would you look at that...the very next article I clicked on at this same point.

Good stories have a beginning, middle and end. Not “ends.” I feel it is unrealistic to expect writers to create a strong, complex plot and then be expected to create multiple, satisfying endings. I’m happy with one satisfying ending but many would argue that Mass Effect didn’t even give players that. Many also think the ending was just fine. I feel the gamers being the most vocal need to ask themselves, what would actually make you happy? If there was an update tomorrow and when you replayed the game the ending was completely different, would that erase the memory of the original conclusion you received and leave you satisfied? If the new endings still didn’t satisfy a certain amount of fans would you demand they do it again? What are the rules on how many fans need to be vocally dissatisfied with an ending before you feel a company should be forced to change their artistic vision for a game? What consideration is given, if any, to those happy with the current ending and what gives you the right to change the experience for those gamers?
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You can’t please everyone all the time. Whenever anything becomes popular, there will always be a subset of fans that find a reason to hate simply because they can. There is no pleasing them. It doesn’t matter if it’s videogames, music, movies or television you’ll always have a vocal minority that will hate what you’ve created just for the sake of hating, especially if something becomes popular. We saw fans turn on Rockstar after their masterpiece Grand Theft Auto 4 was released; we’ve seen a backlash against Infinity Ward despite consistently shipping an excellent product. We’re seeing it now with Bioware. To cave into these vocal fanatics sets a dangerous precedent and takes creative control away from the artists to see their creative visions realized. I firmly hope Bioware doesn’t touch the ending. All it does is teach the entitled among us that if they scream and cry long enough and loud enough, they can get their way and as a parent I can attest, that’s a recipe for future disaster. Give in and it will never end. Bioware needs to stand by their work and continue their strong stand against those targeting their staff directly. If gamers don’t like it, let them vote with their wallets.
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http://altdevblogaday.com/2012/04/0...bout-mass-effects-ending-this-is-one-of-them/
 
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[quote name='Soodmeg']I would say that the original bitching is slightly worse since it so over the top but I guess that is true. So let me join the "discussion" here is a article of someone supporting the ending. Says its fine.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2012/03/14/mass-effect-3-ending-spoiler-warning[/QUOTE]

He even says hes not a big fan and doesnt understand where theres plot holes. Thats where alot of articles that support the game or bash the complainers come from. People who either arent big fans or arent fans at all and dont have the same perspective as the people who are complaining.

[quote name='Soodmeg']Oh yea, this one is my favorite, he actually agrues that video games are NOT art beacuse of the way the fans disproportionately rage about things. I believe I said the same thing earlier in the thread.

Its very well written I suggest given it a read then ya?



http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2012/03/mass-effects-fans.html[/QUOTE]


I really dont care whats considerend art but I will say this its hard to be considered art when you scramble to come up with an ending at the last minute and end with "go buy DLC"

Anyone that wants to say "but there cant be multiple endings" should go talk to Bioware who said there would be.
 
Well every artist has to decide for themselves how to balance fan expectations and feedback with their unique artistic vision. BioWare is no different. Maybe they're going to tell fans that the ending stands, period. Maybe they're going to cave somehow. Whatever their decision is, maybe time till vindicate it, maybe not. It's their series, they are in the driver's seat.

I just don't agree that it's ever appropriate to tell fans they need to sit down and shut up. Especially with a developer who has been so repeatedly vocal about the importance of fan feedback in shaping their product. Why should that change now?
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']I just don't agree that it's ever appropriate to tell fans they need to sit down and shut up. Especially with a developer who has been so repeatedly vocal about the importance of fan feedback in shaping their product. Why should that change now?[/QUOTE]EA owns them now. 'Nuff said.
 
[quote name='shrike4242']EA owns them now. 'Nuff said.[/QUOTE]
Well, if anything, that should make them more likely to quote-unquote betray their original artistic vision by offering alternatives. There's money in it. Either directly by selling us a DLC, or indirectly by keeping fans happy so we keep buying sequels and merch. I don't really see a path where the writers sticking to their guns results in higher profits for EA than if they don't.
 
[quote name='yankeessuck']He even says hes not a big fan and doesnt understand where theres plot holes. Thats where alot of articles that support the game or bash the complainers come from. People who either arent big fans or arent fans at all and dont have the same perspective as the people who are complaining.




I really dont care whats considerend art but I will say this its hard to be considered art when you scramble to come up with an ending at the last minute and end with "go buy DLC"

Anyone that wants to say "but there cant be multiple endings" should go talk to Bioware who said there would be.[/QUOTE]


Again, thats what I like to call the road to Skip Bayless. Either you are a fan of the game or you or not...lets not try to make a hierarchy of fandom and say that this guy is more/less of a fan so his opinion counts more/less.

Thats a big cop out to discount everything that comes across the table.....




[quote name='Ryuukishi']Well every artist has to decide for themselves how to balance fan expectations and feedback with their unique artistic vision. BioWare is no different. Maybe they're going to tell fans that the ending stands, period. Maybe they're going to cave somehow. Whatever their decision is, maybe time till vindicate it, maybe not. It's their series, they are in the driver's seat.

I just don't agree that it's ever appropriate to tell fans they need to sit down and shut up. Especially with a developer who has been so repeatedly vocal about the importance of fan feedback in shaping their product. Why should that change now?[/QUOTE]


I agree but you are not answering my question. Firstly though, to your point I think its never appropriate for fans to try and hold developers hostage with their product.

I guess what I want you to comment on is where is the line here? I have brought this up in numerous other topics most recently being the piracy debate. In that topic you had a bunch of people claiming that the music industry works this way or that way or the other. I then would ask...what do you do for a living? Oh I work at Lowes. Really didnt know Lowes required so much insight on the music industry.

I work as a cam op and field audio tech in TV/Film...I cant just kick open the door and demand that the director change as scene I dont like. I have to trust that he knows what he is doing like he has to trust that I know what I am doing.

So where is the line where you become more than just a guy playing a video game to knowing more than the team of creative directors at Bioware? Now lets not forget that you guys are not just stating your dislike for the ending...this has gone FAR beyond just not liking the ending. You got lawsuits, you got people vilifying the company, you guys are basically calling for heads to roll here. Under what expertise do you have to do such a thing?

So where does it line lay where as a fan you have a right to not only consume the entertainment but change it as you see fit?

When I viewed the ending that I choose I didnt think it was that great but I yielded to the fact that I enjoyed the writing and direction thus far so the ending had to be on par with what they saw fit.

I dont see how a "true fan" could vilify a company so easily when you claimed to love all the rest of them. Baffles me how that works...I love 99% of the game but the last 10 min makes me want the company to crash and burn.
 
The line is wherever BioWare's writers decide it is. By their own statements they will make that decision based on their own reckoning of what's right for the series, and feedback from their fans. So fans are absolutely correct to make their voices heard strongly.

If you're asking me personally, I think the ending was a terrible mistake and I'm not at all opposed to BioWare calling a mulligan and attempting to fix it. But if that doesn't happen I'll accept it. My favorite bands have recorded albums I hate and my favorite television shows have had terrible seasons. Disappointment is a part of life and I'll move on. I'm not planning any lawsuit or calling for anyone's heads so I can't speak for the people who are.
 
Wait... we can't speak for them? Of course we can, Ryu. The internet says the few radical fans out there harassing devs, demanding Casey and Mac's jobs, blacklisting certain gaming websites, etc. are surely accurate representations of us all. I could have sworn it works both ways.
 
[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']Wait... we can't speak for them? Of course we can, Ryu. The internet says the few radical fans out there harassing devs, demanding Casey and Mac's jobs, blacklisting certain gaming websites, etc. are surely accurate representations of us all. I could have sworn it works both ways.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you're right, just like that one person who filed an FTC complaint who gets mentioned in every news story about this issue, because he's surely not an outlier. :lol: There aren't any fans who simply disagree with the decisions made by the writers and aren't shy about saying so. Oops, I forgot, writers are Artists and are thus incapable of mistakes and automatically know better than us reg'lar folk. :lol:
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']Well, if anything, that should make them more likely to quote-unquote betray their original artistic vision by offering alternatives. There's money in it. Either directly by selling us a DLC, or indirectly by keeping fans happy so we keep buying sequels and merch. I don't really see a path where the writers sticking to their guns results in higher profits for EA than if they don't.[/QUOTE]EA is one to certainly tell their fans to sit down and shut up for all the things they've done recently, such as the Online Pass, plus other things.

I think the "simplified" ending may be an EA influence on trying to get ME3 to make sure it hits the deadline.

[quote name='Ryuukishi']Yeah, you're right, just like that one person who filed an FTC complaint who gets mentioned in every news story about this issue, because he's surely not an outlier. :lol: There aren't any fans who simply disagree with the decisions made by the writers and aren't shy about saying so. Oops, I forgot, writers are Artists and are thus incapable of mistakes and automatically know better than us reg'lar folk. :lol:[/QUOTE]That one guy who filed a FTC complaint is a complete douche.
 
So the ending is not a big deal then? There seems to be a lot of double talk, on the one had its the biggest gaming daft in history yet when called on out it magically becomes no big deal and people just disagree.

If people just disagreed we wouldnt have 8 million blog post would we not?
 
[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']Wait... we can't speak for them? Of course we can, Ryu. The internet says the few radical fans out there harassing devs, demanding Casey and Mac's jobs, blacklisting certain gaming websites, etc. are surely accurate representations of us all. I could have sworn it works both ways.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, Ink. Kind of tired of being lumped in with folks who have nothing better to do than harass people over a video game. I doubt anyone in this thread has done anything more than discuss the crappy endings on gaming forums and with their friends. All we would like is what Bioware has been talking about for years when it comes to Mass Effect: our decisions meaning something. We don't like the short, abrupt copy and past endings. We aren't threatening to burn down buildings over this. And I think most of us in this thread have, on more than one occasion, mocked the extremes some of these people are going to.
 
Is it really any different than your blanketed statements about how all us gamers are completely incapable of competently voting with our wallets or boycotting developers because of shoddy business practices, broken promises, etc. (something I've already done with Epic because of Gears 3) Also the whole fan hierarchy logic as well when knowledge of those very same plot holes is one of many key arguments of the opposing view point. I found those remarks to be bullshit as well, but I'm not the least bit interested in debating with you. It's clear you love to hear yourself talk and that's fine. Go nuts. It's not as if I'm forced to read or actually engage in the current topic and can't discuss any other aspect of the game at my leisure.

I just find it hilarious the same people criticizing gamers for allowing themselves to be whored out are more than eager to lead the forefront in bashing them a second time for actually trying to do something about it besides bitching on a message board. My troll sense is out of control over here.
 
Uhhh, see Bruce that to me is more double speak. It seems to me that you guys are playing both sides, if it was just a few people Bioware metacritic wouldnt have been attacked, there wouldnt be hundreds of blog post every 5 seconds, there would be a charity to get them to change the ending, etc etc. The last 3 pages were filled with how much everyone now hates Chobot and she as nothing to do with anything really.

It seems like you guys conveniently downplay all that has happened thus far. If the majority of people just disagreed with the ending we would be no where near were we are at now.

Also, I guess I thought it was implied that this topic would required speaking in terms of mast generalizations. Clearly I am not picking out certain people in the thread.

One more thing...I think you are vastly downplaying asking someone to change the ending of their game. Apparently thats no big deal where as I think its a huge deal but meh.
 
[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']Is it really any different than your blanketed statements about how all us gamers are completely incapable of competently voting with our wallets or boycotting developers because of shoddy business practices, broken promises, etc. (something I've already done with Epic because of Gears 3) Also the whole fan hierarchy logic as well when knowledge of those very same plot holes is one of many key arguments of the opposing view point. I found those remarks to be bullshit as well, but I'm not the least bit interested in debating with you. It's clear you love to hear yourself talk and that's fine. Go nuts. It's not as if I'm forced to read or actually engage in the current topic and can't discuss any other aspect of the game at my leisure.

I just find it hilarious the same people criticizing gamers for allowing themselves to be whored out are more than eager to lead the forefront in bashing them a second time for actually trying to do something about it besides bitching on a message board. My troll sense is out of control over here.[/QUOTE]

Well that is where I would disagree...I am always willing to be swayed one way or the other in certain things but I am pretty dead set on that. I think gamers have proven that are virtually incapable of voting with their wallets. But that is a personal view.

I just posted this but clearly its a generalization..there is no way to talk about the subject with so many people in it without talking in generalizations.

Also I do not enjoy hearing myself talk, I just like debating things and it seemed like you guys wanted to talk about it so I thought I would take the other side. The topic felt big enough that it should have 2 sides to it. to your last point I would say that...this isnt what I would call taking a stand against whoring yourself out. The true stand would be how much the DLC is downloaded and how well the next Bioware game sells.

Also, continue your point on fan hierarchy...you stared it but it didnt seem like you finished it there. I am interested in hearing what you were going to say there.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']It seems like you guys conveniently downplay all that has happened thus far. If the majority of people just disagreed with the ending we would be no where near were we are at now.[/QUOTE]
Where exactly are we "at now"? A ton of people are discussing it and analyzing it online. Well, it's a franchise that has enthralled millions of people for five years, an insultingly botched ending is something they care about, no big surprise there.

Some people are discussing it more hysterically than others, well, there's the internet for you.

Some people bugged Amazon until they got refunds, who knows how many but I seriously doubt it's more than a handful. One dude filed an FTC complaint which will result in nothing.

99.999% of the reaction to the game has been discussion. Some legitimate, some hysterical, but still only discussion.

What exactly is being downplayed?
 
Well to that I would ask how many things are you allowed to discredit? I can give you that the one guy filed a lawsuit (which has been done before to other companies) but do you also get the Metacrtic score thing, the amazon thing, the constant blog thing (I wish there was a way to figure out how many blogs/articles were written about the ending) and the constant pseudo black listing of people who disagree, the lets make a charity and raise money to change the ending, the lets send cupcakes.....etc etc

I mean how many things do you get to have on that side? Again, Chobot said her opinion and it caused so much ruckus the blog take taken down.

I guess a better question would be what can I count in the list of "over the top gamers." What point can I use to make my side of the discussion? You have to give me something to work with that you view as creditable.

From just today, The New Yorker is out, Penny Arcade is out, Destructiod is out....all of these things I have been told I cant use.
 
Buying colored cupcakes and donating to a gamer charity are harmless publicity stunts. Are you suggesting that these things threaten BioWare's artistic freedom in any serious way?

Fans may be screaming for writers to get fired, but they don't have the power to actually do that, no matter how hard they scream.

I don't even know what you mean by blacklisting people who disagree.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']Again, thats what I like to call the road to Skip Bayless. Either you are a fan of the game or you or not...lets not try to make a hierarchy of fandom and say that this guy is more/less of a fan so his opinion counts more/less.

Thats a big cop out to discount everything that comes across the table.....

[/QUOTE]

Who is discouting anything? I am saying most articles dont attempt to see it from the point of view of the "complainers". Its much easier to throw the word entitled out there.

There are legitimate reasons for why people were upset with the ending and there are legitimate reasons why Mass Effect is different and shouldnt be lumped into comparisons to movies or books.
 
Indeed. Books and movies are not interactive media. Hell, even those are not immune to fan outrage. Take Highlander II, for example.

Also, Sood, you constantly bringing up the Metacritic score kind of makes our point here. That's based on like 2000 scores...for a game that has shipped millions of copies. It's a small minority of people that are being illogical about this. I doubt anyone in this thread would say this is a bad game, because of the ending. They might think it's a bad game for other reasons, which is an opinion they are entitled to.
 
Blarg, no clearly I am not...there cupcakes dude. Alright I yield, its all gravy in the realm of Mass Effect. You cant debate that the moon landing happen to a person who doesnt believe in the moon.

I have listed a half dozen things that happen in the realm of gamer outrage yet you give no credence to any of them thus I cant make any points. You have believe in one of them so I can counter, you cant discount everything and then ask me to counter it. Clearly Chobot was bashed into taking down her post...thats blacklisting (not by the traditional sense I agree) but meh. I cant debate anything if one side believe nothing happened at all.


Although I still would be interested in hearing Ink fan hierarchy point.
 
[quote name='yankeessuck']Who is discouting anything? I am saying most articles dont attempt to see it from the point of view of the "complainers". Its much easier to throw the word entitled out there.

There are legitimate reasons for why people were upset with the ending and there are legitimate reasons why Mass Effect is different and shouldnt be lumped into comparisons to movies or books.[/QUOTE]

Not that I am debating you but are you sure they are comparing it to books and movies and not other games? I believe and correct me if I am wrong...but gamers are the ones that push for games to be considered in the realm of books and movies as far as art goes do they not? Why doesnt it fall under the same..."deal with it" idea that books and movies posses? The ending of Lost was equally horrid but no one demand they reshoot it. I would love for gamers to come to a voice of what they want gaming to be....because it seems to change a lot.


Again, I think there is a lot of convenient double speak happening through no fault of anyone. Gamers is such a large group of people that they will never really have a collective voice but its hard to debate things when a qrt of the people push for games to be in the realm of movies and such...then when they are treated as such another qrt of the people reject it.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']That's because you're succumbing to the fallacy of the spotlight. The people who get the most attention aren't necessarily the ones who best portray a group.[/QUOTE]

I never said it was.....? I am kinda confused at your point here Bruce. I guess I am just baffled as to how big this story actually is. On the surface it seems pretty huge, hundreds of blog post, dozens of articles from creditable sources, fan outrage, dozens of actives that would be considered "above the norm" websites tampered with (as in intentional lowering the score) people boycotted in various ways

yet when questioned everyone seems to just shrug and go...meh no biggie.

So I guess I will also go.....meh apparently no biggie.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']Not that I am debating you but are you sure they are comparing it to books and movies and not other games? I believe and correct me if I am wrong...but gamers are the ones that push for games to be considered in the realm of books and movies as far as art goes do they not? [/quote]

There are alot of gamers. Why do you lump them all together as if everyone is pushing or even cares if its art? Again I make this point you cant complain that people are attacking your art if you end your art with "go buy DLC"

Why doesnt it fall under the same..."deal with it" idea that books and movies posses? The ending of Lost was equally horrid but no one demand they reshoot it. I would love for gamers to come to a voice of what they want gaming to be....because it seems to change a lot.
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Was Lost interactive? Did I get the choice to kill Walt at some point? Your decisions not mattering is a big part of the criticism on the ending. What movie and TV show can you compare that to? Bioware made a big deal about decisions and importing your games. They made promises that they didnt deliver on.

Also Lost didnt end with "Expand Jacks legend through DLC"
 
Sood - It actually isn't a big deal because BioWare doesn't have to listen to us at all. We aren't holding their families hostage and I sincerely doubt EA gives a shit about bad press. Been there, done that, still here. They already got f*cking paid with MP DLC cash to look forward to spending in the future. I also doubt you honestly believe the majority gamer who unfortunately speaks for ALL OF US and clearly doesn't have a problem with this whole debacle doesn't suffer from selective amnesia.

Both EA and BioWare could have easily ignored this and in a few years the fans who couldn't care less about the drama would have probably covered the cost of losing a couple thousand fans that did. The current industry climate seems to only be interested in NEW money, not old, so are we really making that huge of an impact?

BioWare responding to us is simply common sense/smart business. It's not as if the NEW/ME2 fans and anyone else who hadn't known ME existed until now bringing in that NEW money has smothered the core audience yet so until that happens they have to at least appear to give a damn about the rest.

I'm simply sick to death of lurkers borrowing each others soapboxes only responding to us when they have back up like bitches would, then disappearing like thieves in the night when they don't and treating EA/BioWare like they're being victimized by their fans in here. Especially when the same people flat out exaggerating our response in here (not out there but HERE) admit they don't give a shit either way yet are absolutely certain any modifications to the ending (which will surely be DLC) will be mandatory. Not to mention the fact BioWare made the repeated mistake of convincing their customers certain features were in the game when they weren't. But there I go contradicting myself by engaging in the first place.

It's whatever. I honestly don't mind your opinion (truly because you have more balls than the average lurker does), but really? Come on man. Just because you think we feel our shit doesn't stink doesn't mean we can't smell yours a mile away either.

As for your fan hierarchy comment of fan vs. fan/not acknowledging journalists who couldn't bother to do some actual research on the game before chiming in? Well... there you go. How can anyone claim a side or flat out insult one or the other when they can't be bothered to fully understand where they are coming from? Let alone examine the facts in front of them? Better yet... actually prove whether or not their opinions hold any merit? Hell... even TALK to those opposing them first? There's a reason why some (not all) chiming in for a ending fix read those articles and can't take them seriously and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with them not agreeing with the "entitled nerd" crowd.

It's the same reason Chobot got bashed for her blog and a thousand eyes rolled at once after she apologized. She didn't do her f*cking homework. She didn't even finish the f*cking game but she sure had an "educated" opinion on those that did! People don't have a right to look down on her for that? She simply joined in on bash-a-nerd circle jerk acting as if she knew or cared about what the f*ck was going on. How in the hell can you respect an opinion like that?

Make no mistake a lot of those "entitled nerds" have no problem calmly debating with those who had no problem with ending and explaining why they are irritated. A lot of times civil fans agree to disagree and explain they aren't out for blood or anyone's livelihood for christ sake.

Well... they could if the other side wasn't usually more interested in insulting them every five seconds based on knowing half of the facts or waving a middle finger in the air with ear plugs on when it's their time to speak. Those knee jerk reactions are exactly why a majority of them just shrug it off or ignore it.
 
[quote name='yankeessuck']There are alot of gamers. Why do you lump them all together as if everyone is pushing or even cares if its art? Again I make this point you cant complain that people are attacking your art if you end your art with "go buy DLC"



Was Lost interactive? Did I get the choice to kill Walt at some point? Your decisions not mattering is a big part of the criticism on the ending. What movie and TV show can you compare that to? Bioware made a big deal about decisions and importing your games. They made promises that they didnt deliver on.

Also Lost didnt end with "Expand Jacks legend through DLC"[/QUOTE]

HA!

Although...is that were the line is drawn? You seem to think its the interactivity....that seems to odd to me. I guess I am again baffled by the art logic. If its art...even though its interactive then you can only agree or disagree...you can not want them to change it because it would still fall within the realm of their expression. Your basically saying that their artistic expression is wrong and they should change it....which is the opposite of art. That confuses me.

Just a note...I dont believe gaming is art.....although I just realized I might have been debating about 10 different people on that which caused me to lump everyone there after into on big bowl. Personally the interactivity which makes gaming great is one of the big reasons I dont believe its art...although I know you personally dont care about that topic.

Also, I thought there were many occasions through out the series including 3 that had plenty of decisions that mattered. There were several people you could save/not save/ several worlds you could save or not save...it seem pretty legit to me. Is the problem that you want more decisions (because I think its unfair to say your decisions didnt matter) or did you just want different ending decisions?


Ink? Luker...come on...I have been on the forums since 05 for petes sake. I have been in almost every thread for every game since...I just dont talk a lot because I always ruffles feathers for some reason. But luker....man that hurts. :cry: Although I will say this...I dont think I ever was making a point as to whether gamers are entitled or not....whoring themselves yes...but entitled no. But see where people would be rubbed the wrong way with the as you put it...bash a nerd circle jerk (HA! :lol:) but since consider myself as nerdy as they come so I never viewed it as an outside opinion.

My opinion of the game was that it was the worst in the series...not because of the ending but because of the gameplay itself. If I did feel betrayed or lied to it would be more about how FPS this game is compared to the other ones. Still top 10 game though....great series.
 
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Well... I didn't mean to insult or categorize you with the rest of code scammers or idiots with the lurker comment, Sood. I actually enjoy your posts as you aren't afraid to speak your mind which usually includes calling people on their bullshit. I appreciate black and white responses and I'm glad you actually WANT to stur up a debate rather than bash and bounce.

I just want to clear the air and make sure people know that none of the posters in here actually support the crazy motherf*ckers outside of CAG that want to harass devs on Twitter, demand Casey be fired, or any of that other stupid shit that makes us ALL look bad.

We just want BioWare to live up to all the bullshit they've been spouting to us for the past couple of years we've invested in this trilogy. The only reason I'm still playing this game personally is because I want to get my god damned $60 worth before PAX. If the announcement doesn't interest me or doesn't seem worth my money then I'm ghost. It just rubs me the wrong way when people bring that up while supposedly "not caring" either way and making themselves look even faker than we ever could supporting a developer we "hate".

I honestly don't hate BioWare. I just don't f*cking appreciate being lied to when the dollars in my pocket are on the line. I think everyone can understand that.
 
[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']Well... they could if the other side wasn't usually more interested in insulting them every five seconds based on knowing half of the facts or waving a middle finger in the air with ear plugs on when it's their time to speak. Those knee jerk reactions are exactly why a majority of them just shrug it off or ignore it.[/QUOTE]

This is why I haven't really chimed in much these last few pages. I've said my piece on the endings, and I'm sure I'll say more in the future, but right now, what's the point? Sood, you're painting everyone that thinks the series deserves a better ending with the same brush, so what's the point of even arguing it, especially when you're assuming we're all going to be lapdogs to BioWare/EA in the future?

I'll admit, I am a huge BioWare fan. Mass Effect is my favorite series of games ever. Despite some shady and backhanded stuff they/EA have done, I've still supported and defended the series and company. The ending to ME3 really exposed how much smoke they've been blowing, though, and I'm still disappointed despite finishing the game weeks ago. I have no interest in DLC until we get endings this series deserves, not something scribbled on a napkin and an attempt at a "2deep4u" ending. Some speculation is fine, I'm not asking to be spoonfed answers full of rainbows and sunshine, but when the ending is 99% speculation and plot holes when we were told we'd get closure, I think the fanbase has a right to be upset. Are some going overboard? Sure. But that happens no matter what the situation is, especially on the internet. The majority of the "Retake" movement has been civil and knows that acting like a dickwad isn't the best way to represent themselves or the change they want.

As for the whole "artistic integrity" debate, I believe games can be art, sure, but I hate how people are using it as a shield to instantly deflect any criticism. That defense is pretty poor when Tali's face is an awful photoshop job, there is on disc, day one DLC, one of EDI's outfits is a reskin of Miranda's from ME2 complete with a camel toe, and the last two words you see after beating the game are "downloadable content." No "dangerous precedent" will be set if things are changed either, because endings have changed before in multiple forms of media (Fallout 3, Blade Runner, Sherlock Holmes, just to name a few).

Here's a few links that show why people are angry:
Collection of pre and post-gold developer comments about the game/endings
Quotes from the Game Informer cover story months ago
Gamefront's 5 reasons the fans are right

And a great video that breaks down why the ending fails. It's long, but it's worth the watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MlatxLP-xs&context=C40f5813ADvjVQa1PpcFOAotan6Dc9_iGaTbK9c-Jt9R93zNjV-xA=

...aaaand this post was way longer than I thought it would/should be. Whenever I start talking about the whole ending debacle, I can never shut up about it.
 
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