Playstation 4: Rumors and Speculation, complete with fanboy rage!

[quote name='lokizz']damn dude how bored are you to respond to old posts lol. i dont care anymore blah blah blah crippled masters!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

You must have the attention span of a goldfish. There was only a three day gap.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']First Apple gets hit with price fixing digital content NEXT comes Sony and Microsoft for their consoles that don't play used games!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_...ay-face-e-book-price-fixing-lawsuit-tomorrow/[/QUOTE]

Not going to happen. The e-book suit has no relation whatsoever to the lack of resale capability in Apple and pretty much everybody else's online download stores.

The main issue in the anti-trust case is the desperate attempt by the big publishers to remain relevant in an era where individual authors are free to put their books on Amazon for Kindle users to buy with no other entity grabbing a piece of the action. They're horrified by the idea of 99 cent book selling millions of copies. That kind of pricing won't support a ritzy office in Manhattan and all the other perks publishing types define themselves by.

Nintendo doesn't like competing with iOS and Android games at a fraction of the prices they're accustomed to getting. If Nintendo were to collude with several major game publisher to raise prices, then that would be similar to what Apple is being accused of doing with Big Six publishers to exert pressur eon Amazon and B&N. But Nintendo hasn't done anything of that sort and is showing all the signs of biting the bullet and getting on board with an increasing range of cheap download games.
 
[quote name='epobirs']Not going to happen. The e-book suit has no relation whatsoever to the lack of resale capability in Apple and pretty much everybody else's online download stores.

The main issue in the anti-trust case is the desperate attempt by the big publishers to remain relevant in an era where individual authors are free to put their books on Amazon for Kindle users to buy with no other entity grabbing a piece of the action. They're horrified by the idea of 99 cent book selling millions of copies. That kind of pricing won't support a ritzy office in Manhattan and all the other perks publishing types define themselves by.

Nintendo doesn't like competing with iOS and Android games at a fraction of the prices they're accustomed to getting. If Nintendo were to collude with several major game publisher to raise prices, then that would be similar to what Apple is being accused of doing with Big Six publishers to exert pressur eon Amazon and B&N. But Nintendo hasn't done anything of that sort and is showing all the signs of biting the bullet and getting on board with an increasing range of cheap download games.[/QUOTE]

Actually you're wrong. If you read about the article, it has very little to do with the movement to e-books and everything to do with price fixing. This is actually an issue with the digital market for games right now. Sony and MS dictate the price of games. The suit from the Justice Dept (if you care to actually read it) is due to the price fixing of $12.99. Apple isn't even the monopoly holder of that market, the Amazon actually owns almost that entire market but they are going after Apple because of price fixing. IMO they should go after Sony and MS right now for telling developers what they can and cannot charge for online games and DLC. It's just plain stupid that a developer may want to charge $10 fora game but MS and Sony can tell them they HAVE to charge $15. That kind of price fixing needs to be stopped. It will only get worse when we lose the ability to play used games.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']Sony and MS dictate the price of games. The suit from the Justice Dept (if you care to actually read it) is due to the price fixing of $12.99.

...

It's just plain stupid that a developer may want to charge $10 fora game but MS and Sony can tell them they HAVE to charge $15. That kind of price fixing needs to be stopped.[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure what Apple did was not the same.

What the game companies do suck, it's not collusion. There's no agreement between Sony and Microsoft like Apple and the publishers. You know how I know? All the exclusives. If it was illegal collusion, we'd see Bastion on PS3 and Journey on 360. We don't, because they compete with each other, without colluding.
 
[quote name='lokizz']nah youd still be too busy sucking dicks and GETTIN DAT MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

lol oh God wow such ownage
 
[quote name='elessar123']Pretty sure what Apple did was not the same.

What the game companies do suck, it's not collusion. There's no agreement between Sony and Microsoft like Apple and the publishers. You know how I know? All the exclusives. If it was illegal collusion, we'd see Bastion on PS3 and Journey on 360. We don't, because they compete with each other, without colluding.[/QUOTE]

First you should know the following: The Justice Department has indicated that the five book publishers got together for several meetings at various hotels and the Justice Dept has ADMITTED Apple wasn't there. How the hell can they include Apple? If they can include Apple then I'm sure they can justify saying that MS and Sony colluded.

The collusion: Why are downloadable games released for the same price on both consoles when the manufacturer dictates price? Sure sales have different prices at different times but the actual launch (when the games sell the most) always have the games at the same price on both console.

Many people such as myself own both consoles and would gladly buy from the cheaper one but neither console is EVER cheaper. Why is that? Both Sony and MS decide (every single time) that the games are worth a XX.XX price and (every single time) those prices match one another? Give me a fucking break. I don't believe it.

If you look at disk based games, there is a great deal of competition. Stores will have launch week sales and Amazon, Best Buy, Target, etc will often ofter very good but different deals.

Contrast that with the launch of an XBLA/PSN game, the game is either 10, 15, or 20 bucks and it's the same on both consoles (both manufacturers supposedly dictated independently of one another the price). Why isn't it discounted on launch week? What kind of retailer would turn down the chance to take a huge chunk of the market share of a newly launched game? If they were actually working independently of one another then one would offer it cheaper, even if by a dollar, that would drive hundreds of thousands to millions (depending on the game) of sales away from the competitor's console.

I just have a hard time believing that the Justice Department can claim that Apple colluded with the book publishers when they admit that Apple wasn't present at the meetings yet there is no way they can claim that Sony and MS aren't colluding to keep prices high.

I can tell you that if I ran MS or Sony, I would certainly offer a launch discount on the games that I thought would sell huge in order to drive up sales.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']First you should know the following: The Justice Department has indicated that the five book publishers got together for several meetings at various hotels and the Justice Dept has ADMITTED Apple wasn't there. How the hell can they include Apple? If they can include Apple then I'm sure they can justify saying that MS and Sony colluded.

The collusion: Why are downloadable games released for the same price on both consoles when the manufacturer dictates price? Sure sales have different prices at different times but the actual launch (when the games sell the most) always have the games at the same price on both console.

Many people such as myself own both consoles and would gladly buy from the cheaper one but neither console is EVER cheaper. Why is that? Both Sony and MS decide (every single time) that the games are worth a XX.XX price and (every single time) those prices match one another? Give me a fucking break. I don't believe it.

If you look at disk based games, there is a great deal of competition. Stores will have launch week sales and Amazon, Best Buy, Target, etc will often ofter very good but different deals.

Contrast that with the launch of an XBLA/PSN game, the game is either 10, 15, or 20 bucks and it's the same on both consoles (both manufacturers supposedly dictated independently of one another the price). Why isn't it discounted on launch week? What kind of retailer would turn down the chance to take a huge chunk of the market share of a newly launched game? If they were actually working independently of one another then one would offer it cheaper, even if by a dollar, that would drive hundreds of thousands to millions (depending on the game) of sales away from the competitor's console.

I just have a hard time believing that the Justice Department can claim that Apple colluded with the book publishers when they admit that Apple wasn't present at the meetings yet there is no way they can claim that Sony and MS aren't colluding to keep prices high.

I can tell you that if I ran MS or Sony, I would certainly offer a launch discount on the games that I thought would sell huge in order to drive up sales.[/QUOTE]

Do you have any proof on this or are you just pointing at price points? Games come out at different price points: $5, $10, $15. I would think that Sony and MS release the game at the same price point because that's the price the developer wants to sell the game at. What sense would it make for a developer to charge $15 on Xbox and $10 on PS3? All that would do is piss off everyone on the Xbox.

If Sony/Microsoft were dictating prices, I'm sure all the games would be released at the same price point. Considering I just bought World Gone Sour for $5, I say you're full of shit.

Your comparison to retail stores is dumb as fuck. They offer sales because they're competing with other stores but they don't have to. In fact, many games are launched at the $59.99 price point with no deal offered. Is that price collusion? Moron.
 
BC
----
I have long suspected that there will be no BC, if Sony abandon the CELL architecture. BC almost killed Sony on the PS3. Yeah, I loved BC, because there weren't a lot of games to play early on, so I played a lot of PS2 games. But that BC greatly drove up the price of the PS3, which but them behind the 360. There will be no BC this time, because Sony will be much more price conscious this time. Software emulation is cheap, but can be buggy, and I suspect that the CELL architecture would be very hard to emulate in software. They won't be putting a CELL on board just for BC, like they did with the PS2's chips on BC PS3's, for cost reasons.

Used
-------
* I do believe a lot of games used proceeds from selling their games to finance new game purchases. I know this, because I do it.
* Games will drop in price a lot slower with this 'feature', as they will not have to compete with the used market. The question is will they launch at a lower price?
* No legislation will prevent this.
* Perhaps they could leave this up to to the game dev/pub to decide on a per title basis.
* How would people feel if their car exploded once they were done with it? Maybe not fair to compare $60 to $30,000.
* I suspect that the ill will this will generate will ultimately cause them to back down on this.
* If one manufacturer does this, it would be a ripe market for the other to _not_ do this, and steal sales. Unless all three are in collusion which seems unlikely.
* This reminds me of Monsanto and their canola. While you can't buy used seed, there are a lot of similarities here.

Load Times
-------------
* Decrease them!
* Textures are going to be way bigger, audio files bigger. Meaning taking way longer to load.
* Optional installs (ala 360) to an optional SSD would be wicked.
* Sleep and resume, would solve this.

Misc
------
* Will the new consoles support lower case? Or why is the OP YELLING AT ME?
* Every generation seems to hit the memory cap quickly. Why the hell the last generation when with 256/256 (PS3) and 512 shared is beyond me. It should have been 1GB. They should have 4GB this time around. More memory to play with means it is easier for devs, which means more good games sooner.
* Hopefully they use a shared memory model like the 360 this time around. That makes things so much more flexible for devs.
 
I think my primary concern for the PS4 right now is that the rumored specs are roughly 1-year old PC components. I applaud Sony for going with AMDs APU architecture, but they need something faster than a 6650. With AMDs recent announcement of their Trinity fusion APUs, I'm hoping Sony opts for that along with an 8000 series GPU. Those two combined should pave the way for at least a few years.

And like snowsquirel said, more memory. I would like to see 4GB, but I can see Sony opting for 2GB instead. Ideally, the graphics card should have at least 1GB of it's own memory...

EDIT: if Sony sticks with Blu-ray (which I hope they do), they will need at least 8x (36 MB/s) readers in this thing, and if possible 12x (54 MB/s). So, to itemize the list:

  • AMD Trinity APU - 4 cores @ ~ 2.9GHz (includes 7000 series GPU performance)
  • ATI HD 8000 series w/1GB dedicated memory (GDDR5?)
  • 1GB System memory (512MB shareable with GPU)
  • 12x Blu-ray drive (54 MB/s = 19 seconds to fill 1GB of memory)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='snowsquirrel']
* Every generation seems to hit the memory cap quickly. Why the hell the last generation when with 256/256 (PS3) and 512 shared is beyond me. It should have been 1GB. They should have 4GB this time around. More memory to play with means it is easier for devs, which means more good games sooner.
* Hopefully they use a shared memory model like the 360 this time around. That makes things so much more flexible for devs.[/QUOTE]

lol, they need to make sure they have enough bandwidth for filling all that memory first. There's a reason why the 360 can outperform the CELL's 7 cores in many instances.
 
[quote name='4thHorseman']I don't know if he is, but I think I might be. I lol'd at his comment.[/QUOTE]

I think we all laugh at comments posed towards him being a dipshit

"FECK YEA SON I GOTS MY DJ RAPSTAR PLAT WHA WHA"
 
[quote name='SynGamer']I think my primary concern for the PS4 right now is that the rumored specs are roughly 1-year old PC components. I applaud Sony for going with AMDs APU architecture, but they need something faster than a 6650. With AMDs recent announcement of their Trinity fusion APUs, I'm hoping Sony opts for that along with an 8000 series GPU. Those two combined should pave the way for at least a few years.

And like snowsquirel said, more memory. I would like to see 4GB, but I can see Sony opting for 2GB instead. Ideally, the graphics card should have at least 1GB of it's own memory...

EDIT: if Sony sticks with Blu-ray (which I hope they do), they will need at least 8x (36 MB/s) readers in this thing, and if possible 12x (54 MB/s). So, to itemize the list:

  • AMD Trinity APU - 4 cores @ ~ 2.9GHz (includes 7000 series GPU performance)
  • ATI HD 8000 series w/1GB dedicated memory (GDDR5?)
  • 1GB System memory (512MB shareable with GPU)
  • 12x Blu-ray drive (54 MB/s = 19 seconds to fill 1GB of memory)
[/QUOTE]
You got to remember they have to fit everything into the size of a console case not a gaming PC case. Console makers have to consider the overall cost consumers are willing to pay, ensure it is easy to use, make sure it last long, and looks nice in an entertainment center too.
 
[quote name='bjstucker']I think we all laugh at comments posed towards him being a dipshit

"FECK YEA SON I GOTS MY DJ RAPSTAR PLAT WHA WHA"[/QUOTE]

What?
 
[quote name='htz']You got to remember they have to fit everything into the size of a console case not a gaming PC case. Console makers have to consider the overall cost consumers are willing to pay, ensure it is easy to use, make sure it last long, and looks nice in an entertainment center too.[/QUOTE]

I see no reason why that can't get the items I listed to fit inside a console. If the "fat" PS3 was an acceptable size, then surely they have more than enough room to fit those components inside a PS4.
 
surprisingly GAMESTOP of all places maybe the saving grace for the used game at least for PS4/720. The #'s they generate for console sales can't be ignored & if they were to not sell PS4/720 in protest this would hurt both companies.
 
[quote name='Enuf']surprisingly GAMESTOP of all places maybe the saving grace for the used game at least for PS4/720. The #'s they generate for console sales can't be ignored & if they were to not sell PS4/720 in protest this would hurt both companies.[/QUOTE]

Not really, barring sales & used they sale consoles for the same price as everyone else. Used consoles net MS & Sony zero dollars the same as used games. If GS refused to sell cobsoles that won't play used games they'll only be hurting their company.

GS's CEO has already said they are gearing up for consoles to go all digital eventually. They're trying to avoid going the way of BBV.
 
Seems like a smart move but it would suck not to be able to find games under 20 dollars anymore. Hopefully no spinning discs will mean my sony electronics to break or overheat anymore lol.
 
Instead of limiting the ways I can use the games I legally bought, how about you lower the prices of older games so that they're at least at a competitive level with the used price? I find it absurd that games on PSN never have any discounts or decrease in value whatsoever.

For example, I could buy God of War 1 and 2 for $40 from the PSN store (which came out on 2010), or I can buy the God of War Collection on disc (new) from Amazon for $22.48 (Amazon's used price plummets even further to $13.35). Take a hint from Valve, Sony.
 
[quote name='SynGamer']I think my primary concern for the PS4 right now is that the rumored specs are roughly 1-year old PC components. I applaud Sony for going with AMDs APU architecture, but they need something faster than a 6650. With AMDs recent announcement of their Trinity fusion APUs, I'm hoping Sony opts for that along with an 8000 series GPU. Those two combined should pave the way for at least a few years.

And like snowsquirel said, more memory. I would like to see 4GB, but I can see Sony opting for 2GB instead. Ideally, the graphics card should have at least 1GB of it's own memory...

EDIT: if Sony sticks with Blu-ray (which I hope they do), they will need at least 8x (36 MB/s) readers in this thing, and if possible 12x (54 MB/s). So, to itemize the list:

  • AMD Trinity APU - 4 cores @ ~ 2.9GHz (includes 7000 series GPU performance)
  • ATI HD 8000 series w/1GB dedicated memory (GDDR5?)
  • 1GB System memory (512MB shareable with GPU)
  • 12x Blu-ray drive (54 MB/s = 19 seconds to fill 1GB of memory)
[/QUOTE]
That all sounds really, really, REALLY expensive. As in "I won't buy a console from Sony till the last year of the next gen" expensive. If the consoles cost over the $500-600 bullshit prices we saw at the beginning of this gen, they can shove them up their ass. I'm not paying almost a grand for my entertainment.:booty:

And if they do the 'no used game' thing and/or try all digital, then they can shove em so far up their ass they can puke em back up, rinse and repeat till Doomsday cuz I ain't buying that bullshit EVER.
 
[quote name='War Machine']I find it absurd that games on PSN never have any discounts or decrease in value whatsoever.[/QUOTE]

Except that they do. Your argument loses credibility when you start overexaggerating.
 
[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']That all sounds really, really, REALLY expensive. As in "I won't buy a console from Sony till the last year of the next gen" expensive. If the consoles cost over the $500-600 bullshit prices we saw at the beginning of this gen, they can shove them up their ass. I'm not paying almost a grand for my entertainment.:booty:

And if they do the 'no used game' thing and/or try all digital, then they can shove em so far up their ass they can puke em back up, rinse and repeat till Doomsday cuz I ain't buying that bullshit EVER.[/QUOTE]

It's actually not... because consoles don't have an OS like a computer does, they generally don't have to use top of the line parts to get top of the line performance. A console with middle tier processor/graphics card would likely a game as well as a Windows based PC with upper tier processor/graphics (of the same family/series). Those four components (again, assuming middle tier) listed could be purchased at retail for $300... and on a mass market that Sony will get them at, they'll be significantly cheaper.

Additionally, AMD's Trinity line "APU" is pretty fucking neat. It's a processor/graphics card hybrid. Theoretically, if you're doing something non-graphics intensive (like using the XMB, watching a Blu-Ray) then the processor could handle everything and let the graphics card sleep. If you're playing a game, the APU could not only provide processing power but also support the graphics card. I don't fully understand the technology but I think that's how it could work...

And I think everyone learned from Sony's $500/600 debacle that people don't want to pay that much for a console, especially now that console gaming economic future isn't as rosy as it once was.
 
[quote name='gettinmoney662']Except that they do. Your argument loses credibility when you start overexaggerating.[/QUOTE]

all full retail games on psn are priced at MSRP like at brick and mortar stores. this shouldnt be. plain and simple.
 
imagine if you could only register a video game with one console. and you buy a game. keep it sealed and 30 years later..

boom isntant millionaire, when you sell it
 
[quote name='8bitArtist']all full retail games on psn are priced at MSRP like at brick and mortar stores. this shouldnt be. plain and simple.[/QUOTE]
Duh, its called manufacture suggested retail price for a reason... Why would Sony suggest a game is $60 and sell it themselves for say $30? When they themselves suggest it should be sold for $60.

I'm joking by the way.

[quote name='timesplitt']imagine if you could only register a video game with one console. and you buy a game. keep it sealed and 30 years later..

boom isntant millionaire, when you sell it[/QUOTE]
At the rate we are going with the quality of games at launch, good luck playing that game un-patched 30 years from now with no way to patch it. You probably could not even activate it since the servers are probably removed by then so no point in collecting games anymore.
 
[quote name='elessar123']lol, they need to make sure they have enough bandwidth for filling all that memory first. There's a reason why the 360 can outperform the CELL's 7 cores in many instances.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure I get your LOL here. Yeah memory bandwidth is important, what part of my quote gave you the impression that I wanted more memory, but at the expense of bandwidth? The PS3 also had dedicated VRAM, which should have helped with bandwidth... though in practice it hindered things, as devs hit VRAM cap early, while on 360 the shared mem model allowed them to use more than 256 when needed.

The PS3 actually had slightly better memory bandwidth than the 360, IIRC. The reason the cell can outperform the cell, is that there are many situations that the 360's cpu can take advantage of parallesism that the Cell can not.

I really don't want to get into a technical debate here, but don't put words in my mouth.


As for what I suggest sounding expensive... yeah you are right. The SSD option should definitely be optional. Blu-Ray speed likely is around same price regardless of speed. 4 GB of DDR3 is about $35, VRAM can be much more though. They should target the 360's launch price. That thing sold fine, and for that price they should be able to do something pretty powerful. The PS3 launch price last time was just too high, and they suffered because of it.

Would $350 be a better price? It is cheaper than $500 right? At $350 expect to see a marginal improvement, and the console generation to be shorter. At $500 expect to see a significant performance increase, and likely another 5 year cycle. For me, I'd definitely take option two, and if I couldn't afford option two, I'd rather just stick with my PS3 than pay $350 for a slightly better PS4.
 
[quote name='snowsquirrel']I am not sure I get your LOL here. Yeah memory bandwidth is important, what part of my quote gave you the impression that I wanted more memory, but at the expense of bandwidth?[/QUOTE]

Show me one proof that the 7 CELLs can work at 100% capacity in the PS3 if you want to try. It can't, because the memory bandwidth is not wide enough to accomplish this. Therefore, having more memory is a moot point.
 
I would update the thread but it seems a lot of the same stories being retold. I'll look around for something new

Edit: couldn't find anything but opinions and guesses, but I did put the "spec sheet" IGN article link in OP.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='Blaster man']Actually you're wrong. If you read about the article, it has very little to do with the movement to e-books and everything to do with price fixing. This is actually an issue with the digital market for games right now. Sony and MS dictate the price of games. The suit from the Justice Dept (if you care to actually read it) is due to the price fixing of $12.99. Apple isn't even the monopoly holder of that market, the Amazon actually owns almost that entire market but they are going after Apple because of price fixing. IMO they should go after Sony and MS right now for telling developers what they can and cannot charge for online games and DLC. It's just plain stupid that a developer may want to charge $10 fora game but MS and Sony can tell them they HAVE to charge $15. That kind of price fixing needs to be stopped. It will only get worse when we lose the ability to play used games.[/QUOTE]

You do not understand the suit or the article, although many articles have missed the point entirely. You really don't get what price fixing means.

Sony can only dictate prices for their own platforms. Microsoft can only dictate prices for their own platforms. Likewise Nintendo and any other platform provider. A developer seeking to sell at $10 is free to deal with only the platforms that accommodate their desires. If Microsoft thinks a game merits a $15 price the developer can see if Sony is more in line with thinking. They can even take it to the PC market with their own web site and charge exactly what they believe it is worth.

The reason Apple is named as part of the suit is that it aided the publishers by providing a platform where the publishers could say, "See, they're good with it, so what's your problem?" Apple never had any delusions about grabbing a big chunk of the e-book market, so it cost them nothing to support high prices.

The Big Six publishers were seeking to control prices across ALL e-book platforms. They hate with a burning passion that several authors have gotten quite rich selling directly through Amazon with self-publishing. It threatens the entire nature of the business but offers a far great portion of the revenue to the writers.

I know more than a little about the publishing field. I currently do e-book conversion work for several well-known authors or their widows. These books in many cases were out of print for years but now sell at a nice clip on Amazon. Not enough for the publishers to bother with but a serious income enhancement for the authors.

Most writers are not making millions like a Stephen King. A major portion need to keep a regular job to ensure a funded pension and medical coverage. Selling a few hundred books a month on Amazon at $2.99 delivers a royalty rate that people selling only in dead tree format can only dream of. It can make a hell of a lot of difference in quality of life for an aging author whose work had gone mostly out of print. With e-books there is no reason for anything to ever go out of print.

A lot of experienced authors have seen that sales volume can produce greater net revenue than high prices. There is simply no reason for an e-book to cost anything close to a physical book. Far better to sell 250K copies at 99 cents with a 30% royalty rate than 50K units at $8.99 with the author seeing far less of the net.

The Big Six can see a future approaching that doesn't need them and they're scared. Even POD is getting cheap enough to be effective. More and more literary agents are becoming mini-publishing houses, providing editorial and technical services for their clients to work the e-book field. This can be done from a home office in Minnesota as effectively as it can from an expensive Manhattan office building and that means the agents needs a far smaller piece of the action than a traditional publisher to make a good living on their services.

The business is changing. Authors have a much more direct relationship with their audience and a far bigger ownership of the resulting income. This is what they've always wanted and what the publishers never wanted.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']First you should know the following: The Justice Department has indicated that the five book publishers got together for several meetings at various hotels and the Justice Dept has ADMITTED Apple wasn't there. How the hell can they include Apple? If they can include Apple then I'm sure they can justify saying that MS and Sony colluded.

The collusion: Why are downloadable games released for the same price on both consoles when the manufacturer dictates price? Sure sales have different prices at different times but the actual launch (when the games sell the most) always have the games at the same price on both console.

Many people such as myself own both consoles and would gladly buy from the cheaper one but neither console is EVER cheaper. Why is that? Both Sony and MS decide (every single time) that the games are worth a XX.XX price and (every single time) those prices match one another? Give me a fucking break. I don't believe it.

If you look at disk based games, there is a great deal of competition. Stores will have launch week sales and Amazon, Best Buy, Target, etc will often ofter very good but different deals.

Contrast that with the launch of an XBLA/PSN game, the game is either 10, 15, or 20 bucks and it's the same on both consoles (both manufacturers supposedly dictated independently of one another the price). Why isn't it discounted on launch week? What kind of retailer would turn down the chance to take a huge chunk of the market share of a newly launched game? If they were actually working independently of one another then one would offer it cheaper, even if by a dollar, that would drive hundreds of thousands to millions (depending on the game) of sales away from the competitor's console.

I just have a hard time believing that the Justice Department can claim that Apple colluded with the book publishers when they admit that Apple wasn't present at the meetings yet there is no way they can claim that Sony and MS aren't colluding to keep prices high.

I can tell you that if I ran MS or Sony, I would certainly offer a launch discount on the games that I thought would sell huge in order to drive up sales.[/QUOTE]

There is this invention called the telephone. It allows communication over immense distances in real time.

Steve Jobs had extensive discussions with the publishers' representatives. This is documented and discussed in some detail in the recently published biography. That same book played a role in bringing the suit forward. Apple acting as a stalking horse for the publishers was the final piece of the puzzle.

The number of people who own multiple consoles of the current generation are a small subset of the installed base of each platform. The great majority of Xbox 360 owners do not have a PS3, nor do the bulk of PS3 owners have an Xbox 360. Those of us who do are a weird outlier group that doesn't have much effect on most decision making within the platform companies. Once you've bought one box or the other, the maker regards the competing box as shut out in most cases.

As such, they don't regard themselves as being in price competition on multi-platform items as two retail chains would. Now, if there were multiple online sellers of downloaded console content, you would have competitive maneuvering similar to what you see between B&M chains or web sellers of physical goods. Instead, the focus is more on exclusive content to drive the choice of box. Same game for the same price on both machines but on the Xbox you get a propeller beanie for your avatar.

It's all about influencing that box choice. There is little motivation to discount newly launched items in that circumstance. Proven hits that have completed their initial sales peak are better candidates.

Imagine if Best Buy felt assured that someone who came into their store instead of the competing chain across the street would only patronize Best Buy for several years to follow. The patterns of promotions would take on a different character in response. Being a platform company is like that.

An example of competition motives is found on Android devices which draw upon both Google's store and Amazon for many of the same apps and games. Each site has differing promotions to draw business. Google focuses more on sales while Amazon promote free items to promote loyalty. Each approach has strengths and weaknesses. giving stuff away to capture customers is classic Amazon. You can see similar competition between PC download venues where their product lines overlap for some items and others are exclusive. Origin has little need to undercut anyone on EA games because they are the exclusive download venue for EA games. By that tactic they hope to catch up with Steam and surpass it if they can.
 
[quote name='War Machine']Instead of limiting the ways I can use the games I legally bought, how about you lower the prices of older games so that they're at least at a competitive level with the used price? I find it absurd that games on PSN never have any discounts or decrease in value whatsoever.

For example, I could buy God of War 1 and 2 for $40 from the PSN store (which came out on 2010), or I can buy the God of War Collection on disc (new) from Amazon for $22.48 (Amazon's used price plummets even further to $13.35). Take a hint from Valve, Sony.[/QUOTE]

Either way, you're buying a game from Sony. Cha-ching! That really motivates them to push down the download price. The high download price just lets them make a bonus on the people who value the convenience over the price difference. I find it hard to blame Sony or anyone else for exploiting the wealthy. Some of those purchasers are not wealthy but just lacking in the cognitive wattage to make the same choices as a savvy shopper. This is why it is better to be rich than poor and smart over stupid.

The situation changes when the only version of the game is the download. No more bonus from soaking the rich or stupid. The price has to be acceptable in relation to the game's quality and age or it will fail. The platform that doesn't get this right will die and leave an opening for someone else to try their hand at the business.
 
[quote name='elessar123']Show me one proof that the 7 CELLs can work at 100% capacity in the PS3 if you want to try. It can't, because the memory bandwidth is not wide enough to accomplish this. Therefore, having more memory is a moot point.[/QUOTE]

Referring to the CELL's SPEs as if they were distinct cores is a misnomer. You could not build a full system around an SPE. These are more akin to the dedicated signal processor chips that once enjoyed a strong market but have now been almost entirely absorbed within other chips, mainly CPUs.

AMD has been relying on consumer ignorance to run a similar scam. What they call an 8-core chip is really a 4-core chips with extra function units in each core to enable a second hard thread. If this sounds a lot like Intel's HyperThreading, that s because it is. There are significant difference in how each enables eight logical processors where four separate processors exist but the effect is largely the same.

The three cores in the Xbox 360 CPU could each power a system unto itself. Each core supports two threads but it would be very dishonest to claim that it was a 6-core CPU because of that.
 
[quote name='Vinny']It's actually not... because consoles don't have an OS like a computer does, they generally don't have to use top of the line parts to get top of the line performance. A console with middle tier processor/graphics card would likely a game as well as a Windows based PC with upper tier processor/graphics (of the same family/series). Those four components (again, assuming middle tier) listed could be purchased at retail for $300... and on a mass market that Sony will get them at, they'll be significantly cheaper.

Additionally, AMD's Trinity line "APU" is pretty fucking neat. It's a processor/graphics card hybrid. Theoretically, if you're doing something non-graphics intensive (like using the XMB, watching a Blu-Ray) then the processor could handle everything and let the graphics card sleep. If you're playing a game, the APU could not only provide processing power but also support the graphics card. I don't fully understand the technology but I think that's how it could work...

And I think everyone learned from Sony's $500/600 debacle that people don't want to pay that much for a console, especially now that console gaming economic future isn't as rosy as it once was.[/QUOTE]

Modern consoles most certainly do have an operating system. Consoles have always had some form of system software that was largely invisible to the user but critical to the developer. Earlier consoles were much like an old 8-bit computer. The firmware was the OS. In the original Atari 800 it was the 10 KB ROM that enabled the most basic functions like initiating a disc load to get things going.

On a machine like the PS1 it was the same. The BIOS provided the basic operations needed to get the disc loading and a range of other functions. By this point there was also a layer accessed by the user for managing save games on memory modules. The area where most commercial PS1 emulators got busted was in copying the copyrighted PS1 BIOS. This made it an open and shut case for Sony's lawyers. They had to drive Bleem into financial ruin to win because it was a true black box emulator. They completely ignored the original machines and instead worked from the software side until they had something that looked very much like a PS1 to the game. This is a lot harder to do but the only guard against copyright attacks. Compaq did the same black box approach to make a BIOS that provided true IBM PC compatibility.

With the Xbox/PS2/GameCube/Dreamcast generation things had gotten much more complex. Each system had considerably more functions built into the ROM and a much more substantial amount of vendor provided software at the core of each game. The Xbox booted a version of the Windows 2000 kernel reduced to just those function deemed needed for a game console. It's main job, like WinCE on some Dreamcast games, was to enable the DirectX API suite. In the Xbox 360 the kernel used is a version from the post-XP development cycle, also stripped down but not quite as much due to the increase of console functions. An example is the printer support in the PS3. This meant retaining an area normally dumped for console designs.
 
[quote name='epobirs']Referring to the CELL's SPEs as if they were distinct cores is a misnomer. You could not build a full system around an SPE.[/QUOTE]

I agree about ATI, but not the CELL. They can work perfectly fine simultaneously (assuming enough bandwidth), and they handle single precision calculations similar to GPUs. Of anything, where they lie is that double precision takes 10x as long, so the speed they give isn't at all comparable to a PC's specs.
 
[quote name='elessar123']I agree about ATI, but not the CELL. They can work perfectly fine simultaneously (assuming enough bandwidth), and they handle single precision calculations similar to GPUs. Of anything, where they lie is that double precision takes 10x as long, so the speed they give isn't at all comparable to a PC's specs.[/QUOTE]

I think you misunderstand. The SPEs lack the instruction set to do general purpose CPU work. That is the role of the PPC in the CELL layout. Each of the cores in the Xbxo 360 CPU is a full PPC and could be used to create a standalone processor that would be roughly equivalent to a late 90s Mac. Leaving aside the hit for in-order processing compared to the out of order design that dominated desktop CPUs by then. The Intel Atoms are dogs for the same reason but it makes for a much lower transistor count and cuts cost quite a lot. The Atoms will move to out of order processing soon as the 14 nm node makes the transistor savings a moot point.
 
[quote name='epobirs']I think you misunderstand. The SPEs lack the instruction set to do general purpose CPU work. That is the role of the PPC in the CELL layout. Each of the cores in the Xbxo 360 CPU is a full PPC and could be used to create a standalone processor that would be roughly equivalent to a late 90s Mac. Leaving aside the hit for in-order processing compared to the out of order design that dominated desktop CPUs by then. The Intel Atoms are dogs for the same reason but it makes for a much lower transistor count and cuts cost quite a lot. The Atoms will move to out of order processing soon as the 14 nm node makes the transistor savings a moot point.[/QUOTE]

I'm not taking about general CPU instructions at all, actually. Just the raw computational power.
 
[quote name='elessar123']Show me one proof that the 7 CELLs can work at 100% capacity in the PS3 if you want to try. It can't, because the memory bandwidth is not wide enough to accomplish this. Therefore, having more memory is a moot point.[/QUOTE]

I acknowledge your point about memory bandwidth (again). IIRC the SPE's can't even access main memory, it has to be brokered by the PPE, though they could pass data to the SPE next to them. I wasn't arguing that point, though the main reason SPE's were under utilized is that they were better suited for parallelizing stream processing, and games aren't a linear stream.

But it doesn't make more memory 100% useless. I can agree that there is a diminishing returns, but getting data from memory (even with a saturated bus) is still going to be 1000x faster than unloading something stale, then loading from disk into memory.

My original post said the PS3 would have benefitted from more memory than 256/256 (and 360 more than 512). I am not saying more memory would have resulted in 100% SPE usage. But it would definitely have be useful to developers, and improved visuals, reduced pop in, etc. Your assertion that anything more than 256 main memory would be 100% useless is a bit of an overstatement.

Anyway, last the hit the memory cap early, it would be nice to not see it happen again.
 
has sony addressed whether the ps4 would take a psn account slot- how does it work with vita/psp? I assume it does, but haven't read anything on the ps4
 
I don't think Sony has said anything about the PS4 yet. Maybe E3, but I have my doubts. Everything so far has been rumors and speculation I believe.
 
I don't see how much better the next console can be graphics-wise with current technology. I don't think people are going to be spending a lot of money on a new system when they can get one that plays similar looking games from the last generation.
 
Throw in the fact that the way the economy looks right now you're not going to have a lot of young people with tons of disposable income to blow on a new system.
 
just found this thread and 14 pages is tl;dr

any confirmation that this is indeed happening?

btw, the only reason the used game market is even an issue is because of the damn $59.99 (likely $69.99 next gen). Used movies/books/cd's aren't nearly the problem for developers and producers that used games are, and it's because they don't charge such asinine prices.
 
[quote name='Drclaw411']just found this thread and 14 pages is tl;dr

any confirmation that this is indeed happening?

btw, the only reason the used game market is even an issue is because of the damn $59.99 (likely $69.99 next gen). Used movies/books/cd's aren't nearly the problem for developers and producers that used games are, and it's because they don't charge such asinine prices.[/QUOTE]

No confirmation at all. Same rumors popped up before the PS3 came out too.
 
If they were even considering a DD-only console, it was likely to compliment a lineup of consoles with a more attractable price-point. There is no doubt in my mind they never considered, even for a moment, going DD-only next gen.
 
[quote name='chakan']Hey, at least after we pay $70 ($10 online pass) for our brand new games we'll get free unskippable commercials!

http://www.gizmag.com/sony-in-game-advertising/22743/[/QUOTE]
:lol:I could kinda see this being done for the online components of a game in order to help pay for server costs for companies. But if it was JUST for the sake of shilling some stupid product and had no benefit otherwise, then they could kiss my ass.

If they did this for offline games where there's no real multiplayer component, like for example Just Cause 2(whose only online feature is uploading gameplay videos), then they could kiss my fuckin' ass even harder.
 
I'm lucky I'm getting old and have less and less time to game. The next generation seems like it is going to be so disappointing.
 
Yeah. If they stick with the $500-600 pricing for consoles again, I'll be lucky if I even consider it by 3-5 years into the next gen, since there's no way in hell I'm paying that much for a console.
 
Think it's more likely these Ads will mainly be used to create free/greatly reduced price games. Kinda like what already happens with many iPhone/Android games...get the game for free, but have ads, or pony up the money to play the game free of obstruction.
 
bread's done
Back
Top