Proposition 8 same sex marriage ban poll

[quote name='lilboo']You seem to be missing what I'm asking.
No one can give a VALID reason to why they are against it. It's not about an opinion. There HAS to be a reason behind it.

EDIT: :rofl: Ramstoria.. i know i know.. :cry:[/QUOTE]

Outside of the religious based arguments, the most common arguments against gay marriage are usually slippery slope arguments relating to the potential of the impact that it may have on our society and culture as a whole. Sure, maybe gay marriage isn't so bad, but people do argue that it's the first step towards acceptance of things which actually are bad.

There's also the issue of whether homosexuality is a choice or not. I don't want an argument, and don't have a stance either way, but to the best of my knowledge there haven't been any conclusive evidence to support either viewpoint, it's still up in the air.

Another argument is the psycho and sociological effect not having a strong mother and / or father figure has on a developing child. There actually have been studies and thesis done on this, and while the idea of two fathers or two mothers is still too new for us to have any idea about the long term effects, I think this might be the argument that holds up the most.

Finally you can make the argument that homosexuals end up with more health problems than heterosexuals. We have studies here: http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/26/3/657.pdf

and here:

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/p...mosexuals-before-and-after-the-aids-epidemic/

and here:

http://www.aegis.org/files/cdc/nchs/CDC_report-0427c.pdf

and here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2242700

and here:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00016243.htm

To sum this argument up, according to these studies homosexuals die younger and are more prone to STD's and other diseases.

The other argument that people make, one which I'm not going to touch with a 10 foot pole, is the idea of child molesters and pedophiles being more likely to be homosexual. I think this argument is a little too radical and offensive to be honest, but there have been studies on this too if you would like me to find them.

Again, I'm not taking any sides here, I don't care about this issue anymore, I'm just playing devils advocate more or less and just answering your question.
 
:rofl:
I'm going to take my AIDS to a church to get married, after I molest several children. Also, when I get gay marriaged to my husband, we are going to be horrible parents because we are both men, and not 1 strong woman!
 
[quote name='lordwow']Only 52% of them.[/QUOTE]

Majority rules. How many times are they going to bitch about this in California? We should start having votes for abortion and other things then.
 
[quote name='lilboo']:rofl:
I'm going to take my AIDS to a church to get married, after I molest several children. Also, when I get gay marriaged to my husband, we are going to be horrible parents because we are both men, and not 1 strong woman![/QUOTE]

Is it possible for you to EVER make a reasonable argument without resorting to sarcasm or trolling? I post a well reasoned counter point, backed up with evidence to support my claims, and all you do is resort to childish behavior. Why do you even bother to post on here, you clearly seem to lack the ability to hold up in a debate.
 
If I didn't like black people, I can post links about how bad they are. I can find studies and stories about minorities to scare people.
 
[quote name='lilboo']If I didn't like black people, I can post links about how bad they are. I can find studies and stories about minorities to scare people.[/QUOTE]

So you also don't understand the difference between facts and opinions either? Isn't that a basic concept we all learn in second grade or so? Please, refute my argument, tell me why I'm wrong, that's how a debate works. All I am asking is that you think critically, and stop resorting to red herrings and appeals to emotion, two fallacies of logic which seem to be your only tactic in this debate.
 
I still don't see why taxpayer dollars need to be wasted on this. Let gay people marry and be done with it. California is looking stupider by the moment.
 
instead of movements for gay marriage there should be movements for no marriage.. at least on the government level. states wanna pretend marriage is religious? then marriage can gtfo of our legislation, let it be (and die) as a religious tradition which The Church™ can control as they wish and let another type of government two-person union be exclusively recognized by the state which does not discriminate, as our constitution demands, based on how a person was born.

what bothers me most about gay in america is kids using "you're gay" as a less harsh version of "fuck you", to me that's far more offensive than any prop 8 bullshit and if i were all about gay rights i'd be leading campaigns against that sort of thing, shaming any media outlet that perpetuates it just like the NAACP did with $$$$er
 
Though I appreciate the irony in being so ready to marginalize "bible-thumping" in this context, the real issue is one of popular morality. The old literal biblical interpretation strawman can be trotted out for laughs and beat like the dead horse that it is but noone is seriously falling back on it as the foundation of their argument. It's a rare soul who isn't willing to admit that the Bible is, at best, antiquated.

But, unsurprisingly, people tend to construct their moral sense around the framework that religion provides. And present popular notions of marriage are just that: present and popular. They're not on the level of stoning disobedient children. Ethics and morals have always been in the discussion when laws get crafted; the only question here is whether or not they need to change.

To that end, acting as though everyone who is/votes against gay marriage is some bible-thumping, gun-toting redneck hatemongering idiot is delusional. And in so doing you guys make it rather easy for those who would be otherwise willing to change their minds to go ahead and refuse to do so.
 
[quote name='Magus8472']everyone who is/votes against gay marriage is some bible-thumping, gun-toting redneck hatemongering idiot[/QUOTE]

was short on time so this is the only part i read -- good post.
 
All I know is that "morals" evolve.

Is wasn't that long ago I wouldn't have been allowed to marry a white woman if if I chose to.

There is just no logical reason to deny gays the right to marry. They can already live under the same roof, adopt, do most everything a heterosexual couple can do except marry (and don't put the childbirth argument in there because lots of straight couples can't have kids).

There just is no rational reason to disallow it. Not everyone is Christian so you cant deny based on religion or the church. The only reason to deny it is based off of blatant discrimnation and to argue any other reason is insulting. People can't stomach the thought of two men or two women having a piece of paper that gives them eternal union. Gay marriage doesn't affect us straight people in the slightest way.

The thing that irritates me is that despite the fact citizens have the "right to happiness" (especially when NO ONE GETS HURT IN YOUR HAPPINESS), it is being suppressed for a specific group of people. Frankly, in the land of the "free" that is a shameful thing.
 
I'm so disappointed in CA today.

What bothers me is the CA state gov, by way of the state supreme court has said, its ok to make laws that deny a group of people rights as long as the law passes popular vote. Awesome, CA. Just awesome.
 
Are gay people born gay or do they choose to be gay? How is it discrimination if this is a lifestyle choice someone makes? If they are born that way then I guess it would be a different story, like race or gender.

Anyway, aren't there other states that allow gay marriage?
 
[quote name='jlew']Are gay people born gay or do they choose to be gay? How is it discrimination if this is a lifestyle choice someone makes? If they are born that way then I guess it would be a different story, like race or gender.

Anyway, aren't there other states that allow gay marriage?[/QUOTE]

Many homosexuals claim that they absolutely did not choose to be gay, and if it WAS a choice, they would probably choose to be straight just to avoid the social stigmas. Anecdotal evidence like this however doesn't hold up for a variety of reasons. Empirical research on the subject is up to this point inconclusive, it hasn't been proven that it is a choice, but there not certain it isn't either.

Gay marriage is currently legal in three states, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Iowa, and will be legal in Maine and Vermont later this year.
 
the APA:

What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?

There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.
Click to expand...
 
So on the one hand they admit that there's insufficient evidence to say for sure either way, but on the other hand they are saying that "most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation". So which is it? Those are two completely contradictory statements.
 
I did not choose to be gay. I saw a man one day with tight jeans. The buldge was quite nice. His wife had nice titties. However, I found myself more interested in his buldge.

^ All the scientific proof needed.
 
[quote name='spmahn']...but how can they say that if they say they can't prove it? Anecdotal Evidence is meaningless.[/QUOTE]

So every gay person who says that (and there are many) is lying?
 
Did I choose to be straight? No I did not. I didn't have the agency to choose. I am attracted to females. I didn't choose to be attracted to females.
 
[quote name='Msut77']So every gay person who says that (and there are many) is lying?[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying that they are lying, but there is certainly enough bias in that method to render the results useless. Everyone has an agenda which is why you need to be skeptical and open minded about EVERYTHING, even matters which science claims to be able to explain with "absolute certainty". Whether it's true or not, answering Yes to the "Did you chose to be gay" question helps homosexuals in their cause, so it thereby benefits them to say yes, even if they know the answer is no, or if they are unsure about it.
 
[quote name='lordwow']Oh, so gayness is a conspiracy?[/QUOTE]

Who said it's a conspiracy? It's an agenda, please, look up the word if you don't know what it means. We all have them, even if you aren't aware of it.
 
You're claiming that they may all be lying about the fact that they don't choose to be gay in order to further their cause. That my friend, is a conspiracy:

con·spir·a·cy (kn-spîr-s)
4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design
 
I don't get why it matters if they choose to be gay or not, if they want to be married, they should be allowed to. I'm with Koggit on this one, just get rid of marriage all together and just call it a domestic union for everyone, gay or not.
 
If you poll 100 Catholics about whether Abortion should be made illegal, and 90 of them say yes. is it fair to claim "9 our of 10 people agree, Abortion should be made illegal!",. Does that necessarily make the statement true? Of course not, because you had a biased sample. That is why anecdotal evidence doesn't work.
 
OK, but who knows gay people better than gay people? Gay people.
No one would choose to live a way where people look down on them. Who would CHOOSE to be a second class citizen???
 
[quote name='lordwow']I don't think you understand the word anecdote.[/QUOTE]

Ok, you're right bad example. Let me revise it:

If you poll 100 Catholics and ask them if they can feel god inside of them , and 90 of them say yes. is it fair to claim that god exists because lots of people claim they feel him inside of themselves. Does that necessarily make the statement true? Of course not, because you had a biased sample. That is why anecdotal evidence doesn't work.
 
[quote name='spmahn']If you poll 100 Catholics about whether Abortion should be made illegal, and 90 of them say yes. is it fair to claim "9 our of 10 people agree, Abortion should be made illegal!",. Does that necessarily make the statement true? Of course not, because you had a biased sample. That is why anecdotal evidence doesn't work.[/QUOTE]

....

You do realize animals can be gay, right?

I remember reading a story where 2 gay penguins treated a rock like an egg every year. One night, the zoo replaced the rock with a real egg, and the 2 gay penguins raised a healthy baby.

Look, I'm just as much against anecdotal evidence as the next guy, but there's more than stories to indicate that homosexuality isn't a choice.
 
So believing a religion and God aren't choices, right? :roll:
I will never understand how people ACTUALLY think gay people choose this. HOW?!
 
And that's where your argument falls apart.

If you ask 100 people if a wild animal runs at them threateningly, would their adrenaline increase, 100 people would say yes.

If you asked those 100 people how many of you chose to have your adrenaline pump? How many do you think would say yes?
 
[quote name='lilboo']OK, but who knows gay people better than gay people? Gay people.
No one would choose to live a way where people look down on them. Who would CHOOSE to be a second class citizen???[/QUOTE]

Look at it like people who choose to practice certain religions. Why would someone choose to be a Jehovah's Witness or a Scientologist, or belong to some wacky cult, when they know that mainstream society does not accept their views, and will ridicule and shun them. Why would someone choose to be treated like some kind of moron because of their beliefs. Some people follow their religion not because they choose to, but because they absolutely believe to feel god deep down inside of them, with no other rational explanation given. How is that any different than saying you had no choice in being gay, it's just a feeling you have deep down inside of you?
 
Because when it comes to religious/cult shit people get BRAINWASHED. There's no gay magician that's going around brain washing people. OH WAIT. THIS is why we can't have gay marriage!! THIS will only make OTHER people gayer, right!!?
 
Well, you can't choose your sexuality, but you can choose how you display your sexuality. I guess that's what you mean when you say you choose to be gay?
 
So it's OK to be gay as long as no one notices? :lol:
Expressing yourself is a whole other issue..because that goes with lots of people kinds of people.
 
[quote name='lordwow']spmahn, which sexual preference did you choose?[/QUOTE]

I'm heterosexual. Could I choose to live a homosexual lifestyle and engage in a relationship with someone of the same sex? I suppose so, but I really wouldn't want to, I love my wife very much.
 
[quote name='lilboo']Because when it comes to religious/cult shit people get BRAINWASHED. There's no gay magician that's going around brain washing people. OH WAIT. THIS is why we can't have gay marriage!! THIS will only make OTHER people gayer, right!!?[/QUOTE]

Who are you to say that they are brainwashed anymore then I am to say that gay people are brainwashed into being gay? That's absurd.
 
[quote name='lordwow']That's not what I asked. Did you choose to be heterosexual?[/QUOTE]

I don't know. Maybe at some deep subconscious level I might have. I can't really say for sure.
 
:rofl:

Dude, I went to Catholic school for 8 years. I did not buy into ANY of that shit. Religion and Religious people DO try and convert others to be their religion.

What happens when someone is gay, like myself, and they grow up not knowing anyone gay in real life, like myself? Who brain washed ME?
 
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