Proposition 8 same sex marriage ban poll

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN!!!!! this thread.... over 20 pages???


That's the power of the sphincter baby! Melts in your mouth, not in your hands! Taste the Rainbow!

FLAME ON!!!!:hot:
 
[quote name='SoonerMatt']Oh for the love of....

Look, homosexuality is not a "choice," it's a biological aspect that cannot be changed or altered. Want proof, read up:

http://www.pnas.org/content/89/15/7199.abstract

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/253/5023/1034

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2085769[/quote]


It's moot. Whether people believe it is a choice really is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Heterosexual male drive is such that biologically we want to fuck as many females as we can. Most of us make a choice not to. We altered that based on social mores.

Some people are born gay, some try it to experiment, some men can fall in love with other men, some can see themselves experiencing the sexual act, but not falling in love...

There is so much we think we know as humans, yet there is always an exception to every rule.

There still is no logical reason to ban gay marriage though.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']There still is no logical reason to ban gay marriage though.[/quote]
Q.E.D. In the end that's all that really matters.

Btw, I'm not gay, just very supportive.
 
So if this passes, what is stopping people from trying to get black marriage banned? What about interracial marriage banned? These would be deemed ridiculous by the majority of the population, whats the difference between them and this.

Discrimination is Discrimination. Period.
 
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[quote name='Layziebones']So if this passes, what is stopping people from trying to get black marriage banned? What about interracial marriage banned? These would be deemed ridculous by the majority of the population, whats the difference between them and this.

Discrimination is Discrimination. Period.[/QUOTE]
Ding. We have a winner.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']hmm....On the other hand, if we ban black marriages, we could reduce crime.

I think you're onto something...[/quote]

See! I'm not the only bigot around here! :D
 
Blacks are the least likely to marry of all race/ethnic categories in the US. So that's moot. Even in jest

But hey, so long as we're using the will of the majority to oppress the minority, and overturn the whole foundation for this country in the first place, let's vote to overturn anti-miscegenation laws, too. They're only 41 or so years old, so we've had them longer than we haven't had them. And, I'm sure, we'll get some post-hoc medical claims from BigT supporting the medical classification of persons by race.

;)
 
[quote name='SoonerMatt']Oh for the love of....

Look, homosexuality is not a "choice," it's a biological aspect that cannot be changed or altered. Want proof, read up:

http://www.pnas.org/content/89/15/7199.abstract

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/253/5023/1034

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2085769[/quote]

Your first paper is by Gorski and a few other familiar names... all really smart and great people... It shows that that anterior commisure, an axonal tract that serves as a connection between the 2 hemispheres of the brain (somewhat like the corpus callosum), is larger on average in gay men than straight men. Unfortunately, this does not prove your statement that homosexuality is "a biological aspect that cannot be changed or altered."
1.) This is an autopsy study and for all we know, something about homosexuality may have caused their AC to enlarge.
2.) Look at the data closely; refer to figure 1 in the paper. Notice how 90% of the homosexual ACs overlap with heterosexual ACs? The difference may be accounted for by a couple of outliers (>24 mm2, when the rest are mostly
 
[quote name='BigT']Your first paper is by Gorski and a few other familiar names... all really smart and great people... It shows that that anterior commisure, an axonal tract that serves as a connection between the 2 hemispheres of the brain (somewhat like the corpus callosum), is larger on average in gay men than straight men. Unfortunately, this does not prove your statement that homosexuality is "a biological aspect that cannot be changed or altered."
1.) This is an autopsy study and for all we know, something about homosexuality may have caused their AC to enlarge.
2.) Look at the data closely; refer to figure 1 in the paper. Notice how 90% of the homosexual ACs overlap with heterosexual ACs? The difference may be accounted for by a couple of outliers (>24 mm2, when the rest are mostly
 
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[quote name='von551']hey, don't get me wrong, just cause you're straight doesn't mean you're in any less need of God's saving grace, we're all sinners that need redemption. A straight guy that sleeps around is no less/more a sinner than a homosexual. What upsets me is how agressive the gay community is against the church and it's beliefs. [/quote]

Ignoring the absurdity of the rest of your post, you pretty much lost any ounce of credibility with that paragraph right there. :rofl::rofl:

Oh christians like you are cute.

[quote name='bmulligan']You're an idiot - and an asshole.[/quote]

I can imagine Bmull dazedly sitting in front of the glow of his CRT, digging sleepily through responses in his head before saying fuck it, typing that, and going to bed. Poor guy. :(

In a similar vein to what we're discussing now, I thought this was an interesting article:

(Sydney, Australia) A team of Australian and American researchers claimed Monday to have found a gene that plays a role in transsexuality.
The study, by scientists at Monash University in Melbourne and the University of California, Los Angeles, involved DNA samples from 112 male-to-female transsexuals and 258 non-transsexual males. The researchers said it was the largest scientific study ever conducted on transsexuality. The results appear in the scientific journal Biological Psychiatry. The research was jointly funded by the National Health and Medical Research Council and the US National Institutes of Health.
The researchers said that they found the male-to-female transsexuals were more likely to have a longer version of the AR gene, by a 55.4 to 47.6 percent ratio.
They also said that the longer AR gene may have resulted in a weakening in the brain to detect testosterone which the scientists said “masculinizes” the brain during early development.
“We think these genetic differences might reduce testosterone action and under-masculinize the brain during fetal development,” Prince Henry’s Institute researcher Lauren Hare told the Australian Associated Press.
Trudy Kennedy, director of the Monash Gender Dysphoria Clinic, said the study supported other evidence that genetics and brain gender were important in transsexuality.
“This is something that people are born with and it’s certainly not a lifestyle choice as some have suggested,” she told the AAP.
But an Australian medical ethicist Dr Leslie Cannold warned that labeling transsexuality biological could result in it being turned into a pathology for which “treatment” should be sought.
“Such treatments could include preventative strategies like pre-natal screening and the discarding of `affected’ embryos and fetuses,” Dr Leslie Cannold warned.
Hare and other researchers in the study said that additional research into transsexuality is needed.
Click to expand...


http://www.365gay.com/news/scientists-claim-to-find-transsexuality-gene/


Watch as BigoT bitches about the website it's from. :lol:
 
[quote name='Hex']
Oh christians like you are cute.
[/QUOTE]

Better be careful Hex, you keep flattering him like that, he might catch "it"
 
[quote name='bmulligan']You're an idiot - and an asshole.[/quote]

Coming from you, that's a compliment. I still don't see how I'm an idiot for calling you out for comparing pedophilia and homosexuality but thanks anyway, homey. You're really winning this debate.
 
Give him a break, pascal. Two O'doul's and Bmull is down for the count.

You know the best part about all of this shenanigans is that no matter how much we titter back and forth about this chicanery, I'm 100% convinced that this won't even be an issue in the near future. As much as I want it now, I can be patient.
 
What an interesting thread.

For my $.02, gay marriage is more or less a gray area for me. I don't support it, but I'm not necessarily against it either. I know about a handful of gay people, one in particular that I've known for almost 20 years that recently just came out of the closet and I don't look at him any different now. I have absolutely nothing against homosexuals either, live and let live, I don't try to delve into any of their personal lives unless they confront me with a problem their having.

To be more blunt, I'd say let them get married and let them be. But at the same token, I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. When it comes to being homosexual, I'm also about 50/50 on that subject as well, for some it's obvious it's a choice that they made to be that way, but for some I believe they really can't help it that they're that way, either that they were brought up in that kind of environment or that they were just born to be gay. No discrimination here, it doesn't bother me one bit if someone's gay or not.

The only real problem I have with some of the responses in this thread are the ones openly bashing christians/one's faith. I know not all here on CAG are even associated with a religion, but really? To go so far as to say the world would be a better place without _____ religion because of one (or a few) people posting in an obvious way to just be malicious are associated with that religion? I'm no evangelical person, but I'm one to stand by my faith and religion and to blatantly bash and post malicious things against that religion is not only absurd, but retarded and it's just as ignorant and unfounded as those posting with intent to defer homosexuals/homosexuality in this thread.

Again, just my $.02. I'm not looking for a fight or to argue.
 
[quote name='SL4IN']What an interesting thread.

For my $.02, gay marriage is more or less a gray area for me. I don't support it, but I'm not necessarily against it either. I know about a handful of gay people, one in particular that I've known for almost 20 years that recently just came out of the closet and I don't look at him any different now. I have absolutely nothing against homosexuals either, live and let live, I don't try to delve into any of their personal lives unless they confront me with a problem their having.

To be more blunt, I'd say let them get married and let them be. But at the same token, I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. When it comes to being homosexual, I'm also about 50/50 on that subject as well, for some it's obvious it's a choice that they made to be that way, but for some I believe they really can't help it that they're that way, either that they were brought up in that kind of environment or that they were just born to be gay. No discrimination here, it doesn't bother me one bit if someone's gay or not.

The only real problem I have with some of the responses in this thread are the ones openly bashing christians/one's faith. I know not all here on CAG are even associated with a religion, but really? To go so far as to say the world would be a better place without _____ religion because of one (or a few) people posting in an obvious way to just be malicious are associated with that religion? I'm no evangelical person, but I'm one to stand by my faith and religion and to blatantly bash and post malicious things against that religion is not only absurd, but retarded and it's just as ignorant and unfounded as those posting with intent to defer homosexuals/homosexuality in this thread.

Again, just my $.02. I'm not looking for a fight or to argue.[/QUOTE]

I have stayed out of topics at the site for a bit(and will continue to do so)but will try 1 quick post with you since you seem pretty rational. You say it is unfair to say religion is something we would be better off without and say we are saying this because of just a few stupid religious people........that just isnt right. Its not simply a few people its millions upon millions. Do you think that millions upon millions of dollars would have been raised to fight gay marriage if just a few people were against it? Do you think gay people would have just started truly being open in the last 15 years or so if it was just a handful of stupid people? What about all the other horrible forms of discrimination and deaths caused by religion not just in this area but other areas like race. Christians for years insisted that blacks were sub human according to the freaking bible, or that they were animals.

People here are not against religion because of the acts of a minority of morons. This isn't like gun control. This is an issue that has 10,000s of years of history proving that religion is a festering puss on society that ruins the lives of everyone and anyone that isn't 100% in line with the followers close minded beliefs. I would never say we should kill all Christians or that I hope people like BigoT die as others have. However if I woke up and found out that every Christian on the planet had died, or if I had a way to give you all your own planet where you could just feud with each other over silly beliefs vs the rest of us.....id be relieved.

Say what you want, but to dispute this can only be done out of love of your faith. History and the facts show that religion is nothing more then a tool that generally leads to suffering, pain and as we are now seeing discrimination.
 
[quote name='Hex']
You know the best part about all of this shenanigans is that no matter how much we titter back and forth about this chicanery, I'm 100% convinced that this won't even be an issue in the near future. As much as I want it now, I can be patient.[/quote]
Unnecessary.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']
Say what you want, but to dispute this can only be done out of love of your faith. History and the facts show that religion is nothing more then a tool that generally leads to suffering, pain and as we are now seeing discrimination.[/quote]

And it's responses like this that drive those who do ascribe to a faith to feel less and less like taking up for certain causes. You paint with a very broad brush when you make statements like this. The abolishment of slavery, women's sufferage, and the civil rights movement were all predicated by those of faith who actually paid attention to the true tenents of the faith. Absolutely there have been those who have in the past (and continue to the present day) to pervert the religions. The *vast* majority of those of faith have no desire to use their faith to oppress/manipulate/harm others. But yet, they get dismissed right along with the nut-cases.

(going slightly off-topic)
This is one thing that really hurts the causes of the left. There are many vocal atheists/agnostics who basically espsouse that those of us who believe in God are under some type of mass delusion. Maybe they really believe that, maybe they dont. But there is only so many times that I am willing to listen to someone basically call be crazy before I simply no longer wish to engage that person. This is happening on a macro-scale and why so many have fled the left. Perhaps if people would be a little less hostile to those of different or no faiths, we could get to the real "commonwealth" issues that are the heart of our union.

But why would I be expected to engage with someone who doesnt believe that we should even share the same planet?
 
Well gay marriage has been legal in Cananda for a few years now and look how that country has just went down the shitter. I feel sorry for them, they obviously are depravied of the high morals and double standards that we Americans have..
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Unnecessary.[/quote]
:rofl:

[quote name='hostyl1']And it's responses like this that drive those who do ascribe to a faith to feel less and less like taking up for certain causes. You paint with a very broad brush when you make statements like this. The abolishment of slavery, women's sufferage, and the civil rights movement were all predicated by those of faith who actually paid attention to the true tenents of the faith. Absolutely there have been those who have in the past (and continue to the present day) to pervert the religions. The *vast* majority of those of faith have no desire to use their faith to oppress/manipulate/harm others. But yet, they get dismissed right along with the nut-cases.

(going slightly off-topic)
This is one thing that really hurts the causes of the left. There are many vocal atheists/agnostics who basically espsouse that those of us who believe in God are under some type of mass delusion. Maybe they really believe that, maybe they dont. But there is only so many times that I am willing to listen to someone basically call be crazy before I simply no longer wish to engage that person. This is happening on a macro-scale and why so many have fled the left. Perhaps if people would be a little less hostile to those of different or no faiths, we could get to the real "commonwealth" issues that are the heart of our union.

But why would I be expected to engage with someone who doesnt believe that we should even share the same planet?[/quote]

As the old saying goes, it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch. The nutjobs get the most attention, and people will assume those nutjobs represent the majority. This goes for both parts of your post.

**Wall of text, skip to the red asterics to get to the main point**

As I've said a few times, I grew up in a rather heavy Christian home while at the same time being very close to my uncle, who is homosexual, and his husband. (Not in that way :p) My mom is a very, very, very devout Episcopalian, so she at first had a hard time dealing with having a gay brother. And my dad's side, being Greek, are all extremely devout orthodox Christians. To this day they still act very awkward around my uncle and talk crap behind his back in Greek so he can't understand. All the while, my mom would pray for god to forgive him and, she admitted, at first prayed for god to turn him straight, which my uncle strongly resented.

Hearing this infuriated me, not at my mother, who I know was only wanting the best for her brother, but at the church in general. The Greek Orthodox church is strongly against homosexuality, (ironic if you know anything about Greek history) and pretty much tells gays that they're on the bus to hell. While the American Episcopal church promoted a gay priest to a bishop, the international Anglican community is considering dropping them, and even the American Episcopal church is looking at splitting, with an overwhelming majority siding with the anti-gay side. I got in an extremely heated argument with my priest about the issue, and almost every question I threw at him was spun in a way that more or less avoided the question. Perhaps his intention was to avoid disappointing or insulting me, since he knew of my uncle and my stance on the issue, but regardless it made me come to the understanding that organized religion is bullshit.

The same book, Leviticus, that condemns homosexuality also says it's okay to beat your wife, sell your daughter to slavery or prostitution, and stone people who lie to you. It also allows for multiple wives if one proves to be infertile, becomes infertile after pregnancy, or does not produce a son. (ha ha ignorance of genetics) We obviously do not practice these anymore, but people pick and choose which parts of the bible they want to obey. IMO for a book of rules such as Leviticus, it's either all okay or none of it is. If one part of it becomes outdated, who's to say the rest haven't? I know what some of you are thinking: "Oh, but what about Paul's letter? That's in the new testament, so it should have some standing, right?" The fact is Paul was a power hungry prick who wanted to be the ruler of a new church to Christ, so he said whatever he had to in order to get more followers. As far as the new testament is concerned there's the gospel, Paul's propaganda, other propaganda in the form of letters, and John's bad trip from eating bread infected with Claviceps purpurea, more commonly known as ergot. The gospel is what matters, the rest is hogwash.

Suffice it to say I used to be pretty a devout Episcopalian/Anglican myself, until I started asking questions and doing my own research. I have since become a deist, so I'm willing to believe God is our creator and Jesus came down to set things straight, but for the most part I've come to the realization that the Bible is not a good device for moral guidance or self direction. It served its purpose for when it was written thousands of years ago, but times have changed. Now different variations of the same book (the Torah, Qur'an, and Old Testament) are one of the leading causes for dispute in every sense of the word all across the world.

******

Sorry for the hueg liek xbawks post; I know I went on quite a tangent there but I want to present my opinion with as much clarity as possible. I love my family and my uncle, nothing will change that, so for some organization to tell me I'm going to go to hell for that is one of the most insulting things I've ever encountered. Homosexuals are people, too; they're entitled to the same civil liberties as everyone else, and shame on anyone who cannot see that simple fact. To all your christians who keep beating homosexuals with a bible, consider this: You claim everyone is created in god's image, so perhaps god is a little gay, too.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Unnecessary.[/quote]

Like I said in the Yes We Cag thread, there's only two things keeping me in colorado, one of which being the natural environment.
 
[quote name='hostyl1']And it's responses like this that drive those who do ascribe to a faith to feel less and less like taking up for certain causes. You paint with a very broad brush when you make statements like this. The abolishment of slavery, women's sufferage, and the civil rights movement were all predicated by those of faith who actually paid attention to the true tenents of the faith. Absolutely there have been those who have in the past (and continue to the present day) to pervert the religions. The *vast* majority of those of faith have no desire to use their faith to oppress/manipulate/harm others. But yet, they get dismissed right along with the nut-cases.

(going slightly off-topic)
This is one thing that really hurts the causes of the left. There are many vocal atheists/agnostics who basically espsouse that those of us who believe in God are under some type of mass delusion. Maybe they really believe that, maybe they dont. But there is only so many times that I am willing to listen to someone basically call be crazy before I simply no longer wish to engage that person. This is happening on a macro-scale and why so many have fled the left. Perhaps if people would be a little less hostile to those of different or no faiths, we could get to the real "commonwealth" issues that are the heart of our union.

But why would I be expected to engage with someone who doesnt believe that we should even share the same planet?[/QUOTE]

You should engage with me because I am actually thinking logically and using history. Yes there were Christians during the slavery era that stood up for slaves and worked in places like the underground rail road. And yes there are Christians now working in soup kitchens or even fighting for gay rights. The problem is that people in this topic keep trying to put it as the last posted did "a few nut jobs" when that simply isnt the case. It's more like the "moral" majority.

Your points are completely mute when you consider that there is a damn good chance that prop 8 will pass. How can you claim that the bad things done by religion are just a few nut jobs when as it stands there are freaking millions of you participating in this? Argue all you want but history has shown that while religion may not be evil it is a tool used to control morons with evil in the hearts. Again if what you say is true we would see millions of Christians rallying to the homosexual cause or at least ignoring it. And in the days where blacks were treated so horribly we would have seen the kkk confronted by whole congregations of Christians standing up and fighting.....but again that wasnt possible because the whole fucking church was the kkk outside 1 or 2 people that actually followed the positive spirit of the bible you like to claim.

So sorry, I cant ignore history and I cant ignore facts. Religion is a tool, one that I refused to be used by and one that I prefer wasnt on this planet.
 
[quote name='SoonerMatt']:rofl:



As the old saying goes, it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch. The nutjobs get the most attention, and people will assume those nutjobs represent the majority. This goes for both parts of your post.

**Wall of text, skip to the red asterics to get to the main point**

As I've said a few times, I grew up in a rather heavy Christian home while at the same time being very close to my uncle, who is homosexual, and his husband. (Not in that way :p) My mom is a very, very, very devout Episcopalian, so she at first had a hard time dealing with having a gay brother. And my dad's side, being Greek, are all extremely devout orthodox Christians. To this day they still act very awkward around my uncle and talk crap behind his back in Greek so he can't understand. All the while, my mom would pray for god to forgive him and, she admitted, at first prayed for god to turn him straight, which my uncle strongly resented.

Hearing this infuriated me, not at my mother, who I know was only wanting the best for her brother, but at the church in general. The Greek Orthodox church is strongly against homosexuality, (ironic if you know anything about Greek history) and pretty much tells gays that they're on the bus to hell. While the American Episcopal church promoted a gay priest to a bishop, the international Anglican community is considering dropping them, and even the American Episcopal church is looking at splitting, with an overwhelming majority siding with the anti-gay side. I got in an extremely heated argument with my priest about the issue, and almost every question I threw at him was spun in a way that more or less avoided the question. Perhaps his intention was to avoid disappointing or insulting me, since he knew of my uncle and my stance on the issue, but regardless it made me come to the understanding that organized religion is bullshit.

The same book, Leviticus, that condemns homosexuality also says it's okay to beat your wife, sell your daughter to slavery or prostitution, and stone people who lie to you. It also allows for multiple wives if one proves to be infertile, becomes infertile after pregnancy, or does not produce a son. (ha ha ignorance of genetics) We obviously do not practice these anymore, but people pick and choose which parts of the bible they want to obey. IMO for a book of rules such as Leviticus, it's either all okay or none of it is. If one part of it becomes outdated, who's to say the rest haven't? I know what some of you are thinking: "Oh, but what about Paul's letter? That's in the new testament, so it should have some standing, right?" The fact is Paul was a power hungry prick who wanted to be the ruler of a new church to Christ, so he said whatever he had to in order to get more followers. As far as the new testament is concerned there's the gospel, Paul's propaganda, other propaganda in the form of letters, and John's bad trip from eating bread infected with Claviceps purpurea, more commonly known as ergot. The gospel is what matters, the rest is hogwash.

Suffice it to say I used to be pretty a devout Episcopalian/Anglican myself, until I started asking questions and doing my own research. I have since become a deist, so I'm willing to believe God is our creator and Jesus came down to set things straight, but for the most part I've come to the realization that the Bible is not a good device for moral guidance or self direction. It served its purpose for when it was written thousands of years ago, but times have changed. Now different variations of the same book (the Torah, Qur'an, and Old Testament) are one of the leading causes for dispute in every sense of the word all across the world.

******

Sorry for the hueg liek xbawks post; I know I went on quite a tangent there but I want to present my opinion with as much clarity as possible. I love my family and my uncle, nothing will change that, so for some organization to tell me I'm going to go to hell for that is one of the most insulting things I've ever encountered. Homosexuals are people, too; they're entitled to the same civil liberties as everyone else, and shame on anyone who cannot see that simple fact. To all your christians who keep beating homosexuals with a bible, consider this: You claim everyone is created in god's image, so perhaps god is a little gay, too.[/QUOTE]

*hugs soonermat*

Again prooving that there is nothing wrong with faith but people of a set religion are morons! It is very annoying the way people quote the bible but when you bring up versus that go against things they believe in they like to change the subject or pretend THOSE parts dont matter.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']You should engage with me because I am actually thinking logically and using history.[/quote]

Again prooving that there is nothing wrong with faith but people of a set religion are morons!
Click to expand...

So you think that because I subscribe to a particular religion I'm a moron. Perhaps the question isnt why I should engage with you but rather why you'd engage with me.

I'd be glad to run down the list of points/counterpoints, but what's the use? At the end of the day you think that all followers of religion are morons. Some of your fellow anti-religion folks cant accept that someone could think critically about religion and *still* conclude that it's best for them.

As for attrocities "caused" by organized religion, I think that if you look at any organized group of human origin, you will find corruption and those trying to use the organized group as a source of their power even is said organization is quite free from religion. For example, the Patriot Act, perhaps the greatest threat to the "freedom" of American citizens, was developed and unleashed on the public without the use of an organized "religion". I think this quest for greed/power/domination is displayed in humans whether religion is involved or not. So to blame the religion for the acts of man, I'd argue, is improper.

As to the other poster and Levitical Law, I fully agree. I put no more weight to homosexuality w/ respect to those laws than I do towards women wearing garments of two different types of thread (which is to say none). I think people that claim to be Christians cite Levitical Law as their sole justification a) probabaly havent *read* Leviticus, b) are just covering up a personal feeling separate and distinct from the religion. For a Christian to cite Paul in Romans 1 reveals that they did not give the same weight as Romans 2.

For many Christians, I'd daresay the vast majority of Christians, homosexuality is no different than adultary or fornication. Yes, they are recognized as "sins", but according to the Christian faith, *everyone* sins. People have an aversion to homosexuality because it's perceived as *different*. People natually fear what is different or what is changed. Yes, people have misused the Bible....just like they've misused the Constitution....the Magna Carta...the Cyrus cylinder...etc.

Perhaps you'd prefer there were no "organizations" at all. :D
 
Magus, you have to remember that non-religious people are a minority (and also non-Christian religious people are a minority), so the fact that prop 8 is even close is because there are plenty of Christian people who agree that gay people should be able to get married.

The more fundamentalist people are idiots, just as fundamentalists are generally idiots in any respect, but neither Christianity nor religion in general have a monopoly on fundamentalism.

Also, like hostyl1 has said, people aren't usually against this sort of thing because of their religion or because of the Bible specifically. Usually those are just used as excuses as to not appear prejudiced. People are against these things because of fear.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']You should engage with me because I am actually thinking logically and using history. Yes there were Christians during the slavery era that stood up for slaves and worked in places like the underground rail road. And yes there are Christians now working in soup kitchens or even fighting for gay rights. The problem is that people in this topic keep trying to put it as the last posted did "a few nut jobs" when that simply isnt the case. It's more like the "moral" majority.

Your points are completely mute when you consider that there is a damn good chance that prop 8 will pass. How can you claim that the bad things done by religion are just a few nut jobs when as it stands there are freaking millions of you participating in this? Argue all you want but history has shown that while religion may not be evil it is a tool used to control morons with evil in the hearts. Again if what you say is true we would see millions of Christians rallying to the homosexual cause or at least ignoring it. And in the days where blacks were treated so horribly we would have seen the kkk confronted by whole congregations of Christians standing up and fighting.....but again that wasnt possible because the whole fucking church was the kkk outside 1 or 2 people that actually followed the positive spirit of the bible you like to claim.

So sorry, I cant ignore history and I cant ignore facts. Religion is a tool, one that I refused to be used by and one that I prefer wasnt on this planet.[/quote]

There are parts of California that are quite liberal, but just in the year 2000, Proposition 22 passed with 61.4% yes and 38.6% no. This pretty much defined marriage as "a personal relation arising out of a civil contract between a man and a woman, to which the consent of the parties capable of making that contract is necessary."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition_22

Then a few judges decided that it would be a good idea to overturn the will of the populace and we now have Prop 8.

You cannot pin this down purely on Christian zealots...
Blacks and Latinos generally support prop 8. The only racial group primarily against it are Asians. Also senior citizens, mormons, and anyone who hates Gavin Newsom (e.g., me) are on board.

Why should Christians rally to a cause that may promote further homosexuality if they view the act as being sinful?
 
[quote name='homeland']Well gay marriage has been legal in Cananda for a few years now and look how that country has just went down the shitter. I feel sorry for them, they obviously are depravied of the high morals and double standards that we Americans have..[/quote]

They even let people drink at 19! I'm surprised we haven't built a wall on the northern border to keep all those barbarians out.

My one thing about religion is when people hide behind it. The Bible and their pastor says homosexuality is bad so it is. Then you tell them that their next door neighbor, pool boy, and mailman are gay and they say, "But they seemed so normal." It's like you just threw a logical grenade in between their ears. It just can't compute. Some people change their minds and some never do. I'd say America is about 50/50 on this issue and it should only get better as time passes.

Like we've said, it's comparable to interracial dating. For the most part, it's accepted without any sort of hassle unless you're in really rural parts. Contrary to what bmull will ever say, it is NOT comparable to pedophilia or beastiality or any other non-human sex you can have. This will not lead down the path of people banging their dogs, horses, or kids.
 
[quote name='depascal22']They even let people drink at 19! I'm surprised we haven't built a wall on the northern border to keep all those barbarians out.
[/quote]
It's actually an every-other-province business. Alberta? 18. Saskatchewan? 19. Manitoba? 18. Makes border-cities particularly interesting.
 
[quote name='hostyl1']As to the other poster and Levitical Law, I fully agree. I put no more weight to homosexuality w/ respect to those laws than I do towards women wearing garments of two different types of thread (which is to say none). I think people that claim to be Christians cite Levitical Law as their sole justification a) probabaly havent *read* Leviticus, b) are just covering up a personal feeling separate and distinct from the religion. For a Christian to cite Paul in Romans 1 reveals that they did not give the same weight as Romans 2.[/quote]

Ah-WHUUUUUUAAAAAAHHHHTTT?!?!??!??!!

For many Christians, I'd daresay the vast majority of Christians, homosexuality is no different than adultary or fornication. Yes, they are recognized as "sins", but according to the Christian faith, *everyone* sins. People have an aversion to homosexuality because it's perceived as *different*. People natually fear what is different or what is changed. Yes, people have misused the Bible....just like they've misused the Constitution....the Magna Carta...the Cyrus cylinder...etc.
Click to expand...
Wait, hold the phone. Are you saying what I think you are? A devout Christian pointing out the flaws of their doctrine and psyche?

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^ I think he was just saying that people will pick and choose verses that fit their agenda. You can bring up contrasting verses but it won't matter because they haven't really read the entire Bible or anything other than what they want to.
 
So...
Why are we (not the thread) arguing and making all kind of POINTLESS points :)lol:) when our buddies up north are totally cool with it?

Seriously.
There is no argument at all in this--gays have a right to marry and that's that. All this "But..."s and "Well..."'s are stupid. None of them make sense. I don't care where you quote, what you cite and who you worship. Gay people are very much real and gay people are in no way going anywhere anytime soon--deal with it. We have rights like everyone else.

If you don't like it, deal with it and STFU and move on with YOUR life. In the end, you're just wasting YOUR time and energy battling something that has no use in your life.
 
[quote name='lilboo']So...
Why are we (not the thread) arguing and making all kind of POINTLESS points :)lol:) when our buddies up north are totally cool with it?

Seriously.
There is no argument at all in this--gays have a right to marry and that's that. All this "But..."s and "Well..."'s are stupid. None of them make sense. I don't care where you quote, what you cite and who you worship. Gay people are very much real and gay people are in no way going anywhere anytime soon--deal with it. We have rights like everyone else.

If you don't like it, deal with it and STFU and move on with YOUR life. In the end, you're just wasting YOUR time and energy battling something that has no use in your life.[/quote]
Yes. I say give Gay people the right to marry. I'm not going to go into all the other crazyness that has been posted by the bigots. Bottom line life is too short for this dumb shit. Everyone should have the right to be happy.
 
It's not really a *flaw*. Christianity is the belief that Jesus was sent by God to earth to die for our sins and that further more, Jesus rose from the dead. In doing so, Jesus became the fullfilment of the law, commonly referred to as the Ten Commandments, but also including all the Old Testament laws of Judiaism. Once Christ fullfilled the law, and once a person accepts that, they are no longer bound by the law as written in the OT. Which is, IMHO, a good thing because *nobody* can live up to the entirety of the law.

*However*, we choose to *try* and live up to those tenets because of our faith. It's an expression of our faith that we try and refrain from lying, stealing, killing and attempt to show honour to God and our parents, etc..

The basic instruction for being a Christian is laid out by Christ himself in the so-called Sermon on the Mount best seen in Matthew. And if that was too complicated, he later boiled it down even further to: 1) Love God with all your being 2) Love your neighbor as yourself. Point two being particularly salient for this isssue of homosexuality. Even in a Christian context, to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" would say that if gays want to marry, let 'em. It certainly wouldn't include harming/opressing/persecuting gays. Again, those things do happen, and they happen in the name of Christianity, but that's not what Christianity *is*.

Similarly, in the current "war" the Middle East, people are being detained indefinity, torture, and killed in the name of "America", though I'd argue that that is not what the foundation of the American concept entails.
 
[quote name='HumanSnatcher']
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being-oppressed.jpg
[/quote]

:applause::applause::applause::applause:

yes cause FOX,CBS,NBC,CNN and the rest of them will never use the word "terrorist attack" when abortion clinics get bombed it just gets listed as "Pro-Life activists incident" and yes i use the word terrorist in it's proper meaning

Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.[1] There is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism.[2][3] Most common definitions of terrorism include only those acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants. Some definitions also include acts of unlawful violence and war.
 
Y'know, this whole thing would be fine if people could just keep their religion and their beliefs to themselves. 'Course, when many religions actively promote attracting new members to the congregation, that's just never gonna happen. Separation of church and state would be fine if we could actually keep that shit separate.
 
[quote name='BigT']...[/quote]
Oh look. It's BigT not caring about Prop 8 again.

Say, BigT...what's the obsession with Gavin Newsom? You mention him every time, as if he's some sort of reason to vote away someone else's marriage.
 
so i was sifting through this thread to see if the point im about to make was already made and decided that i couldnt stand reading all you people intellectually masturbate all over each other just so you can sound smart on the internet. the bottom line is, no US law should be solely based on a religious view and interpretation and the once the government decides who can and can't married, they are decide who is or isn't worthy enough to be a real human being.
 
[quote name='hostyl1']It's not really a *flaw*. Christianity is the belief that Jesus was sent by God to earth to die for our sins and that further more, Jesus rose from the dead. In doing so, Jesus became the fullfilment of the law, commonly referred to as the Ten Commandments, but also including all the Old Testament laws of Judiaism. Once Christ fullfilled the law, and once a person accepts that, they are no longer bound by the law as written in the OT. Which is, IMHO, a good thing because *nobody* can live up to the entirety of the law.

*However*, we choose to *try* and live up to those tenets because of our faith. It's an expression of our faith that we try and refrain from lying, stealing, killing and attempt to show honour to God and our parents, etc..

The basic instruction for being a Christian is laid out by Christ himself in the so-called Sermon on the Mount best seen in Matthew. And if that was too complicated, he later boiled it down even further to: 1) Love God with all your being 2) Love your neighbor as yourself. Point two being particularly salient for this isssue of homosexuality. Even in a Christian context, to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" would say that if gays want to marry, let 'em. It certainly wouldn't include harming/opressing/persecuting gays. Again, those things do happen, and they happen in the name of Christianity, but that's not what Christianity *is*.

Similarly, in the current "war" the Middle East, people are being detained indefinity, torture, and killed in the name of "America", though I'd argue that that is not what the foundation of the American concept entails.[/QUOTE]

Sigh this post shows exactly why I cant take followers of an organized religion seriously. You ignore critical points in order to fit your views of reality. You are a cherry picker that may have the abilty to think critically on other subjects and be an incredibly intelligent person, but in order to prop up your beliefs you have suspended those abilities.

1. You talk about how any organized group has created atrocities....but ignore the fact that first off most organized groups that have caused problems or corruption have not stemmed from the belief system behind the group itself or from the group itself. Look at America for instance. America is a corrupt hypocritical nation at the moment. However this isnt because of our constitution and little of what is done in its name. Religion on the other hand people commit the crimes directly in the name of! Second the crimes commited in the name of or because of religion are done by huge sets of believer. The Iraq war and Vietnam war were done in the name of money and power, it was a few people that pulled the wool over the eyes of many using what we thought were facts. Religion in contrast has caused thinks like the Irish Catholic/Protestant(believe it was those two)war and the Crusades where people were fighting directly in the name of religion. It has caused many in the church to wage a war on abortion and gay rights and all sorts of other things.

So again where organized societies have indeed created problems, hate, fear, war etc etc its rarely been the majority of society involved and its rarely been in the name of the beliefs of the organization itself. Religion in contrast we again saw the things named above and countless others such as the witch hunts done directly in the name of the organized religion and supported by the vast majority of believers.

2. The second reason this shows that you like most members of an organized religion cannot think critically is because you have shown yourself to be a cherry picker. You have a very set belief that something happened because of a book.....yet you as you did with soonermat disregard the parts of the book you dont like.....you cannot base belief on something so flawed, admit its flawed then expect others to take you seriously. Christians love to proclaim that not only do they beleive in something but put it in ways that make it sound like the rest of us simply dont see the light of your answer or are ignorant some how......yet you follow a book full of things that even you dont believe in. And even the parts that you claim to believe in are full of problems......

Sorry man but you just logically cant follow most major organized religions and claim that you are thinking logically or that your religion isnt inherently evil or will cause evil. Like I said faith is all fine and good. If you believe in God thats cool, and hell there are even organized religions like Buddhism which can exist without evil because its philosophy is peaceful, simple and non judgmental by nature. I even thought about going into religion and becoming a pastor for a Unitarian Universalist(a religion that teaches different messages from all religions) church because of its peaceful open minded nature. But I realized I cant fairly do it because I wouldn't be able to give peaceful sermons when it came time to teach my congregation about the beliefs of Christians, Jews, Muslims and certain others.
 
[quote name='JJSP']Y'know, this whole thing would be fine if people could just keep their religion and their beliefs to themselves. 'Course, when many religions actively promote attracting new members to the congregation, that's just never gonna happen. Separation of church and state would be fine if we could actually keep that shit separate.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Thats why I always say faith is a great thing religion is not. If someone believes that there is a fly fish god that created the universe and will come back in the next 10 years and rape us to death I could give a flying fig. But when the asshole starts organizing as Christians have done then taking away my rights and injecting the raping fish God into my life. We have problems. Ill even take it a step farther and say I dont mind if people openly proclaim their beliefs....it doesnt have to be a private faith. It just cant be organized!
 
[quote name='blandstalker']Oh look. It's BigT not caring about Prop 8 again.

Say, BigT...what's the obsession with Gavin Newsom? You mention him every time, as if he's some sort of reason to vote away someone else's marriage.[/quote]

Newsom is just ultra-annoying... At least Tony "pothole king" Villar in LA is so ridiculously incompetent that he's humorous; Newsom is like Villar, just much more annoying and less entertaining... I pledge to always vote against whatever Newsom supports

Listen to John and Ken on KFI 640 for humorous takes on these and other politicians... http://www.kfiam640.com/pages/johnandkenshow/


Others agree about Newsom's annoyingness:
http://www.rightwingnews.com/special/worst3.php
 
Why would you care what the mayor of San Francisco does? It's like me caring what the mayor of South Bend does.

EDIT -- Magus, you said the exact same thing that hostyl did except for one thing. He's using his faith for good and you believe that all religion is bad. While it can lead to evil, most parishioners of churches are good. Some people like to be inspired by the words of God and will use the time in church to socialize and forget about the stresses of the regular day. Church is the one place many people go to feel safe because they believe in God's love. You may find that irrational but you have to understand that most of America feels that way. You can't expect them to be tolerant of gays if you can't even be tolerant of their views. It's this all or nothing kind of philosophy that's leaving both sides very bitter with each other.
 
Maybe I missed something, but why are you so against gay marriage, BigT?

And hostyl1, I know about all that, I used to be fairly devout. I was going for comedy, dammit! I've come to the conclusion that we should determine faith and belief based on our own experiences and personal beliefs, not based around a book of guidelines.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Why would you care what the mayor of San Francisco does? It's like me caring what the mayor of South Bend does.[/QUOTE]

He doesnt. Its just an excuse to be a big0t. Do you seriously think anyone that visits a sight called rightwingnews.com is going to be anything short?
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']He doesnt. Its just an excuse to be a big0t. Do you seriously think anyone that visits a sight called rightwingnews.com is going to be anything short?[/quote]

Don't forget also, that because hes a doctor, that he thinks hes better and more right than anyone else
 
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