RPG Thread XI is pretending X-2 doesn't exist

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I really enjoyed playing XII. However, I loathed the random treasure system, and the plot was just terrible. I can't even remember anything about the plot (and I couldn't while playing it if I took a break for as little as a few days). But I really liked the battle system and art and all that. And the upgrade board.

Although the end seemed quite sudden. After I beat the last boss, I was stunned that the game was over. It seemed really abrupt. I expected a few more hours at least.
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']I figured that was a given. What in the world else would it be except my opinion? :lol:[/QUOTE]

Well you'd be surprised that some people actually think their opinions are facts sometimes.
 
[quote name='icebeast']Ask yourself: "Do I love SaGa games, especially they're crypticness, but want a game with less control, multi-part battles that can go on for hours with no saving, and plenty of bugs (PC version is a bit better)?"

If you answered yes then The Last Remanant is for you.[/QUOTE]

I never played the Saga games, so sounds like I need to give TLR a shot
 
[quote name='ihadFG']Well you'd be surprised that some people actually think their opinions are facts sometimes.[/QUOTE]

Especially on the internet. :roll:
 
I was mostly digging the character interaction and dialogue. Plot never struck me as bad, just noticeably less emotional than the other games in the franchise -- and it's nice to break away from the typical cheese for once.

The world and everything felt very alive, and the cast was great.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']
The world and everything felt very alive, and the cast was great.[/QUOTE]

Agreed on both counts. The only FF game whose cast I liked better top-to-bottom was FFVI.

I can't really put my finger on what made me love FFXII, but I know that I did. I hope it wasn't just the slick Steelbook that the CE came in. :D
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']I was mostly digging the character interaction and dialogue. Plot never struck me as bad, just noticeably less emotional than the other games in the franchise -- and it's nice to break away from the typical cheese for once.

The world and everything felt very alive, and the cast was great.[/QUOTE]

I don't agree at all with most of this, but to avoid having you go ape shit on me again, I'll keep my thoughts to myself. Not worth my time or listening to you whine and moan over a game which I care nothing about.
 
[quote name='icebeast']I don't agree at all with most of this, but to avoid having you go ape shit on me again, I'll keep my thoughts to myself.[/QUOTE]

Not much else going on here. Share it.
 
[quote name='Hell Monkey']Not much else going on here. Share it.[/QUOTE]

I agree with Hell Monkey, share us your thoughts icebeast
 
[quote name='Hell Monkey']Not much else going on here. Share it.[/QUOTE]

Alright, I'll share just a bit. Personally it felt like the focus of FF XII wasn't on the characters at all, which is typically not what I like in any story telling medium since in my opinion if you construct interesting characters first then the scenarios you put them in will be interesting by proxy, where boring characters can easily bring down even an interesting scenario.

Basically in 20 hours I felt like the characters, outside of a select few, had been focused on very little, I couldn't even figure out why Vaan and Penelo were there since their importance was very negligible, and due to that they seemed to be mostly ignored. Along those same lines Balthier who I thought was an interesting character also seemed to receive very little focus during the plot (of what I saw of it). Basically the plot was just bringing all the characters along for the ride, rather than the characters defining themselves and affecting the journey they were on. Of course this is all just my opinion, I'm sure there are people who enjoy stories told in this way (sort of a difference of overall focus on creating just a big picture vs a focus on smaller sub stories which will ultimately result in a bigger picture), or people who thought that the sub-plots in FFXII did play an important role in the overall story.
 
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I agree that the FFXII story wasn't focused on the characters. Seemed to be focused more on the bigger picture, and I liked it more for that.
 
[quote name='icebeast']I couldn't even figure out why Vaan and Penelo were there since their importance was very negligible, and due to that they seemed to be mostly ignored. [/QUOTE]

I guess there's three main routes you can go with your RPG protagonist:

1) The protagonist is incredibly central to the story, to the point where it wouldn't really even be possible to play the game if they weren't there. Say, the protagonists of Persona 3/4 for example. (Those characters are essentially blank slates, but whatever personalities you assign to them, they're still incredibly important to the story). I'm sure there are better examples.

2) The protagonist is important, and may have a vital role to play, but the central events of the story don't necessarily rotate entirely around them. I feel like most FF protagonists fall in this group. Kefka and Sephiroth still would have gone bananas without Terra and Cloud respectively, but those characters are still very important.

3) The protagonist is essentially just another guy - a plucky nobody from humble beginnings who gets swept up in the tide of world-changing events. In this case the character is just serving as a proxy for the player to be along for the ride. They're not really important to that story other than that they were there. I feel like Vaan falls pretty squarely into this category, which I think was a deliberate choice.
 
The characters did feel they were just put in there, they were introduced for about 5 minutes and you never got to know them more after those 5 minutes
 
The thing about the kids in FFXII falls into what whoknows just said. There's a bigger picture and they are quite honestly the backdrop. It's not as if the writers made the mistake of not focusing on them, it's not as if they forgot them -- because if you notice throughout the entirety of the game (once the main story arc gets on track) and after Vaan and Penelo take a backseat to the adult characters -- they are often purposely shown in the backdrop of cutscenes playing with each other, teasing, and arguing while the other characters talk business.

The times when they do come up, is when they talk about their own dreams and goals. It's a war based story, it came from members of Square who worked on other Ivalice related titles like Tactics and Vagrant, and therefore it kind of uses the kids as a reminder of what's at stake (their innocence and future), as the grown ups (including Ashe) look for ways to bring destruction and violence to the world.

It's certainly a valid thing to be turned off by (people are quite used to treating the "main protagonist" as someone who should be at the forefront), but I personally think that's what Vaan and Penelo are there for, and why the game opened in the way it did. It beats Hope and Vanille, anyways.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']I was mostly digging the character interaction and dialogue. Plot never struck me as bad, just noticeably less emotional than the other games in the franchise -- and it's nice to break away from the typical cheese for once.

The world and everything felt very alive, and the cast was great.[/QUOTE]

I definitely liked that the story was focused more on the world than the characters, I just felt it took a turn from a politically based tale to having more of a traditional FF villain by the end of the game. I was hoping for it to continue on the path charted for it during the first half of the game, I guess.
 
[quote name='whoknows']I agree that the FFXII story wasn't focused on the characters. Seemed to be focused more on the bigger picture, and I liked it more for that.[/QUOTE]

Cept the bigger picture sucked too. The only parts of the game I liked was the marks, and Montblanc (only cause I really like FFTA). The characters were boring, and the combat was boring.
 
I liked how on one level, XII's plot was much more simple and down-to-earth than the average JRPG plot-- not much more than two political factions squabbling over some magical MacGuffins and control over their little corner of the world. Of course, this is a Final Fantasy game so it has to go deeper than that, but they nicely avoided the typical plot twist where the leader of the opposing faction is revealed to be an unambiguously evil monster who wants to destroy all existence. Instead it's just another layer of political fighting, and it comes down to a question of which group comes out on top and which group continues to control or not control another group. It was messy, it wasn't just about good vanquishing evil, and maybe most intriguingly, it's the villains who end up succeeding in having their vision of the future become reality. Very FFT, except that you can actually comprehend what's happening.

Vaan may have been a bread sandwich but the other characters were likable and charismatic enough to make up for it. The English script was pure gold, best localization ever IMO, and the dub cast turned in uniformly excellent performances.

That's all to say nothing of the gameplay, which (again in my opinion ;)) just cannot be given enough praise. The Active Dimension battle system and the Gambits feel like a revelation. When I play it it feels like playing Super Mario Bros. or Gears of War and thinking, this sets a new standard for the way games are controlled, and everything before this is now obsolete. Of course, in this case the rest of the industry failed to get on the train and the ADB became a dead end rather than the new standard.

I guess it does live on to some extent in FF13's AI-controlled teammates and focus on party-level strategy rather than individual decisions. In any case I doubt very much we'll ever see another FF game with a vanilla, purely turn-based system, even if we don't see the ADB again.
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']
IMO

(again in my opinion ;))
[/QUOTE]

My work here is done.

The FFXII characters may not have been central to the story, but I found them all immensely likeable, especially Balthier and Fran.
 
Agree with you on all you said Icebeast. That was one of my main issues wtih FFXII. I always felt that Ashe or Basch should be the main characters. (and from what I saw Basch was originally going to be the main but they decided to go with a younger more feminine hero....Vaan).

That is actually why I've never finsihed XII. I never felt a connection with who I was playing. I had killed the first Judge but...I really didn't care.
 
Once I got far enough into the game, I really enjoyed and took advantage of the Gambit system. However, I recently tried to play Dragon Age: Origins, and I just could not get into that battle system, which seemed like it was trying to do something similar. It just felt way overly complicated and a pain to set up.
 
[quote name='Hell Monkey']Agree with you on all you said Icebeast. That was one of my main issues wtih FFXII. I always felt that Ashe or Basch should be the main characters. (and from what I saw Basch was originally going to be the main but they decided to go with a younger more feminine hero....Vaan).

That is actually why I've never finsihed XII. I never felt a connection with who I was playing. I had killed the first Judge but...I really didn't care.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Basch was originally going to be the main character.

I don't see anything especially "feminine" about Vaan (not sure of what you're getting at), he was more childish/naive than anything, which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing in an RPG protagonist. I actually prefer it to the brooding anti-hero.
 
[quote name='Backlash']Once I got far enough into the game, I really enjoyed and took advantage of the Gambit system. However, I recently tried to play Dragon Age: Origins, and I just could not get into that battle system, which seemed like it was trying to do something similar. It just felt way overly complicated and a pain to set up.[/QUOTE]

FFXII's battle system is essentially a light version of DA:O's (which obviously descends from BioWare's earlier works). They're very similar in conception, but the battle system in DA:O is much more demanding.

I don't think it's better or worse, and I enjoyed them both. If you turn down Dragon Age to its easiest setting, they're essentially identical.

[quote name='panzerfaust']FFXII and DA combat revolve around very different philosophies.[/QUOTE]

There are obviously plenty of differences, and I'm oversimplifying the comparison for time's sake. But the two are still very similar at their most basic level.
 
DA's revolves around micro management, party positioning and depends heavily on stuns. Playing it on easy is quite boring because you're not even playing what was intended (though it was sometimes funny to switch to easy and AOE through an entire dungeon, lol). It's pretty much Baldur's Gate except noticeably simpler.

To say FFXII is a light version is an understatement.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']
To say FFXII is a light version is an understatement.[/QUOTE]

Yet true nonetheless.

I understand the differences, and I'm not saying the systems are equivalent, but the basic party management and combat philosophy is similar.

For the record, I vastly prefer DA:O's combat system, for the basic reasons you gave. But when I play FFXII, which has no ready comparisons within its own series, the first thing that comes to mind now is Dragon Age Light.
 
[quote name='bvharris']Yes, Basch was originally going to be the main character.

I don't see anything especially "feminine" about Vaan (not sure of what you're getting at), he was more childish/naive than anything, which I don't necessarily think is a bad thing in an RPG protagonist. I actually prefer it to the brooding anti-hero.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't "getting at" anything. It was actually taken from wikipedia

"Although Basch was originally intended to be the rugged main character, Vaan was added at the last minute during development of the game to have a more effeminate leading role after "taking into consideration the target demographic.
Click to expand...
 
Wikipedia. Which is just written by random people anyway (or was that particular line sourced to a SE employee?)

Edit: well, looks like it was in fact. So there you go.
 
[quote name='Backlash']Wikipedia. Which is just written by random people anyway (or was that particular line sourced to a SE employee?)[/QUOTE]

It's sourced to the IGN FFXII Q&A with SE.
 
[quote name='Hell Monkey']It's sourced to the IGN FFXII Q&A with SE.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. Following the link it looks like it's actually just an English translation of a Famitsu interview. I'd bet something was lost in translation there.
 
I think Basch would've made a great main character, but he wasn't and there is nothing we can do about it now...
 
[quote name='Feeding the Abscess']I thought something was said of that issue on the making of DVD, as well?[/QUOTE]

I found the actual question in the interview:

Q: There seems to be a trend of FF games towards younger looking, more effeminate male leads. Did you ever consider making a more rugged looking hero? Lot's of laughter as the super translater person tries to figure out how to describe Vaan as "effeminate."

Yoshida: In the early stages of development the hero character was more rugged -- big and tough. As we started shaping up the scenario and taking into consideration the target demographic, the character became what you see today. There were other ideas tossed around.

Until motion capture and voice actor Kohei Takeda was cast for Vaan, the main character was actually a little more effeminate. With him playing the role, the character became more active, upbeat, bright and positive. The character would have been even more effeminate had Takeda not been cast.
Click to expand...
http://ps2.ign.com/articles/441/441293p1.html

So it was the interviewer who used the word "effeminate" rather than Yoshida, and even the translator struggled with it. That makes more sense to me, since it seemed odd that would have been the word that the designer himself chose.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']DA's revolves around micro management, party positioning and depends heavily on stuns. Playing it on easy is quite boring because you're not even playing what was intended (though it was sometimes funny to switch to easy and AOE through an entire dungeon, lol). It's pretty much Baldur's Gate except noticeably simpler.

To say FFXII is a light version is an understatement.[/QUOTE]

If you played on a console, where on the normal difficulty AOE didn't hit your own team it was somewhat similar too. I know, I know, DA:O on consoles, clearly I'm an unclean one. :whistle2:#

Actually going to be getting back to Awakening this weekend... on my PS3. :whistle2:#
 
Dude, do you have some sort of "change avatar every 60 minutes" policy?

Edit: Man this thread is active, so many posts in a row. My statement was directed to Kimura.
 
[quote name='Backlash']Dude, do you have some sort of "change avatar every 60 minutes" policy?
[/QUOTE]

Finally found one that suits me ;)
 
[quote name='Hell Monkey']He's at least manlier then the Dissidia version of Bartz and Firion at least.[/QUOTE]

Ever character in Dissidia seemed more feminine in character design (I mistaked Squall for a chick at first)
 
[quote name='Backlash']Once I got far enough into the game, I really enjoyed and took advantage of the Gambit system. However, I recently tried to play Dragon Age: Origins, and I just could not get into that battle system, which seemed like it was trying to do something similar. It just felt way overly complicated and a pain to set up.[/QUOTE]

At least with my mage character in Dragon Age it felt like I was selecting and doing something. (Casting spells as rapidly as I could)

With the gambit system on FF 12 it just felt like it was "turn it on, watch it go". Press X, leave it alone. Very hands off. I think that's why I lost interest in the game so quickly.
 
[quote name='eldergamer']
With the gambit system on FF 12 it just felt like it was "turn it on, watch it go". Press X, leave it alone. Very hands off. I think that's why I lost interest in the game so quickly.[/QUOTE]

You can still pretend to control one character at least. You know, move them around and stuff. ;)
 
I wished that FF13 had had an option to automatically select Auto-Battle every turn, so all you had to worry about was tapping the LB.
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']I wished that FF13 had had an option to automatically select Auto-Battle every turn, so all you had to worry about was tapping the LB.[/QUOTE]

If it did, I suspect that I would have loved it instead of hating it. If they patch that in, I'll play it again. That was literally the main reason I disliked the game.

I don't mind automated battle systems like FFXII or DA:O where I can mostly play the field general and rely on my pre-planned tactics to win the day. What I hated about XIII was that it also made you maintain cursory control of one character in battle in addition to managing paradigms (which I would have been fine with on its own). It tried to have it both ways, and that's what completely threw me off of the battle system.
 
Yeah, I agree. Managing paradigms was where the action was in FF13. I suspect they just made you press A to confirm the leader's action each turn to deflect more criticism that the game "played itself" like XII.
 
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