Should we allow Kickstarters in the VGD forum?
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MrNinjaSquirrel
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As long as long as I can post about potato salad.
CrimsonPaw
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What about a forum dedicated to crowd finding? There's just a few different options (kickstarter, indigogo, etc) that could be discussed.
Cheapy, I hope you're going to consider all of the reasons and factors and then make an executive decision rather than going with a pure yes/no vote result. The decision should be based on the best reasoning, not a popularity contest. Partially because that's the way it should be, and partially because of alt accounts, etc.
For me, I don't see why not. And I don't mean that flippantly. I mean to say that there are numerous reasons to allow it, but I can't think of any reasons not to. Maybe just that it clutters up the thread? But we have a LOT of crap that already does this; not sure why these are any different).
Also, if some people don't like threads about Kickstarter, they don't have to read them. Just like I only read about 5% of the active threads because the others don't interest me.
Here are my reasons for it:
1. They are technically deals. Many times funding a game also provides a discount for the game's release price. Either way it fits the technical definition of "deal" ('arrangement to mutually benefit both parties') AND the more narrow definition ('discount'). Posting in other areas of the site would not draw attention to the opportunities (see #3).
2. People preorder products all the time; Kickstarters are no different. The nature of Kickstarter and its inherent potential risk is irrelevant. You always risk when you buy something from any site. The better ones have protections in place, but not all. And if we start preventing only from certain vendors, then where do we draw the line? At Kickstarter? Why not also some of the Japanese sites that no one's ever heard of? Slippery slope.
3. Perhaps the most important reason for me is that it gets to the spirit of CAG (if not the letter, though again I would argue that it also fits the letter of a "deal", both technically and in colloquial usage). We are gamers. Yes, we are cheapasses, but of the two, the slight edge goes to the gamer part. I come here to learn about opportunities about games not just discounts.
4. Allowing them supports the gaming community and smaller developers, and often produces great games (see Divinity: Original Sin and Wasteland 2 as just two examples among many). Again, we are gamers first and should want to support developers.
5. They don't really fit anywhere else. They aren't news, they aren't non-gaming, etc. The whole point of the video game deals forum is to highlight game opportunities. Funding a game on Kickstarter is tantamount to preordering a game (and often at a discount!), so I'm not sure how it would fit elsewhere. Also posting elsewhere (in a separate forum) would not draw the attention to them as they get in the deals thread.
For me, I don't see why not. And I don't mean that flippantly. I mean to say that there are numerous reasons to allow it, but I can't think of any reasons not to. Maybe just that it clutters up the thread? But we have a LOT of crap that already does this; not sure why these are any different).
Also, if some people don't like threads about Kickstarter, they don't have to read them. Just like I only read about 5% of the active threads because the others don't interest me.
Here are my reasons for it:
1. They are technically deals. Many times funding a game also provides a discount for the game's release price. Either way it fits the technical definition of "deal" ('arrangement to mutually benefit both parties') AND the more narrow definition ('discount'). Posting in other areas of the site would not draw attention to the opportunities (see #3).
2. People preorder products all the time; Kickstarters are no different. The nature of Kickstarter and its inherent potential risk is irrelevant. You always risk when you buy something from any site. The better ones have protections in place, but not all. And if we start preventing only from certain vendors, then where do we draw the line? At Kickstarter? Why not also some of the Japanese sites that no one's ever heard of? Slippery slope.
3. Perhaps the most important reason for me is that it gets to the spirit of CAG (if not the letter, though again I would argue that it also fits the letter of a "deal", both technically and in colloquial usage). We are gamers. Yes, we are cheapasses, but of the two, the slight edge goes to the gamer part. I come here to learn about opportunities about games not just discounts.
4. Allowing them supports the gaming community and smaller developers, and often produces great games (see Divinity: Original Sin and Wasteland 2 as just two examples among many). Again, we are gamers first and should want to support developers.
5. They don't really fit anywhere else. They aren't news, they aren't non-gaming, etc. The whole point of the video game deals forum is to highlight game opportunities. Funding a game on Kickstarter is tantamount to preordering a game (and often at a discount!), so I'm not sure how it would fit elsewhere. Also posting elsewhere (in a separate forum) would not draw the attention to them as they get in the deals thread.
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I personally think they should not be. The Video Game Deals section is already way too cluttered with non-deals as it is, and allowing people to post Kickstarter links would further bury actual, favorable deals. In addition, I would imagine that too many people would abuse the opportunity to post their own Kickstarter projects as a way of self promotion, rather than posting legitimately interesting projects that offer noteworthy discounts off of the final list price.
tylerh1701
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Yeah, this is the best suggestion.
One thread ran by a good user (someone like htz or ninja or any other of the number of good active CAGs) who want to run it and can regularly update the OP, and posters can post to inform OP and others of new and interesting video game kickstarters. There are just WAY TOO MANY different kickstarters going at any one time, if each one got their own thread it would clog the deal page I think.
Thanks for asking for feedback.
Absolutely not. Rather than just a dumb mega-thread, though, there could be a new forum or sub-forum named Kickstarters, not that it has to be just from Kickstarter.com, but as a generally known term.
If it infects the mighty Deals Section, it won't end well. There are a ton of grubbers looking to get money for anything, and while the idea of a Kickstarter for some things is great, it's not a "deal" and should be highlighted, but not intertwined with deals.
Maybe with CAG 4.0, we could have a "Top 5 video game Kickstarters currently active" list on the front page. Then we won't miss out on awesome and worthy campaigns.
If it infects the mighty Deals Section, it won't end well. There are a ton of grubbers looking to get money for anything, and while the idea of a Kickstarter for some things is great, it's not a "deal" and should be highlighted, but not intertwined with deals.
Maybe with CAG 4.0, we could have a "Top 5 video game Kickstarters currently active" list on the front page. Then we won't miss out on awesome and worthy campaigns.
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confoosious
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Deals are items either below msrp/going rate or hard to find. Is this either?
If you want to make the argument that collectors items are posted in the deals forum, then make one mega crowd funding thread.
If you want to make the argument that collectors items are posted in the deals forum, then make one mega crowd funding thread.
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GamerDude316
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I think it should be in a different forum such as the general gaming forum here....just doesnt belong on the deal page IMO.
Kickstarters ARE deals. I'm not sure how one could make the case that they aren't. Many people (myself included) consider Kickstarter projects to be "actual, favorable deals". I've gotten several games there for what ended up being significantly less than the game's release price, and often with very cool rare/unique bonuses, either physical, digital, or in-game. Literally the same as preorder bonuses from any retailer.
Re: abuse, that could just be included in the forum rules ("no self promotion"). It's no different than affiliate links.
Both. Funding KS projects almost always provides (often significant) discounts on the release price, and the games aren't available in stores or online (often because they aren't completed yet, but still).
I think the same reasoning is a reason NOT to have just one thread. I actually don't think that's a bad idea, but my concern is just that, because there are lots of kickstarters going on at one time, pushing them all into one thread would become an out of hand unwieldy mess pretty quickly. But at least that would be something.
Again, that's not the question at hand. Otherwise we'd have to vote on every store that sells video games, to allow/disallow threads based on who does or does not like a given store.
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kickrockz713
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Talk about a blowout.
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laundrymatt
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I already stay away from the main deals page. It's a mess. You guys really think being able to post whatever KS campaign we deem "dealworthy" is a good idea? I dont. I dont think that the vast majority of CAG's would either.
Edit: The "one" general KS thread, or making it a sub-forum are decent ideas. Not saying KS is 100% horrible, it just doesn't belong on the Deals page.
Edit: The "one" general KS thread, or making it a sub-forum are decent ideas. Not saying KS is 100% horrible, it just doesn't belong on the Deals page.
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I'm not saying that because it's my preference; I'm saying that because it's literally true.
To whit, using the technical definition of deal: "an agreement entered into by two or more parties for their mutual benefit, especially in a business or political context." Does this apply to Kickstarter? Yep.
Using the colloquial usage: "a discount." Does this apply to Kickstarter? Yep. Of course, there are higher tiers that go beyond the release price, but if you don't want that, don't fund for that. You don't always have to buy the ultra rare limited edition. Most of the tiers for funding provide significant discounts to the game's release price.
Here's the thing: if you already stay away from the deals page, why do you care? Also, if there are plenty of other threads cluttering it up, why is Kickstarter different? People are confusing whether or not they like Kickstarter with whether it constitutes a deal and/or belongs in the deals thread. Those are two separate issues.
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If you consider getting early access to a game a deal, then that's great for you. Unfortunately, not enough worthwhile Kickstarter projects offer a discount (don't get me wrong, some do), but rather give you the opportunity to pay more for exclusive things (i.e. digital soundtrack, alpha/beta/early access, etc.); however, this is done at a price that is meant as a way for you to show your support rather than to give you a discount. Otherwise, it's preordering without any incentive.
Also, you can include whatever you want about no self promotion in the forum rules, but that's certainly not going to stop anyone. All it would take to bypass that is for someone to claim that they are not affiliated with the project. But then how do you discern between that and legitimately interesting projects? And regarding affiliate links; CAG automatically converts links to their own (CAG's) affiliate ID.
pitfallharry219
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The difference between Kickstarters and deals that are currently on the deals page is that those deals are for actual tangible things.
Re: the first, almost every game I've funded on Kickstarter has been for lower than the release price of the game. But, again, the amount of discount is not at issue. Not all "deals" are good deals. Also the inclusion of extras doesn't factor into it. That's equivalent to preorder bonuses for any other game.
Re: the rules, it's no different from any other of the rules here. Most communities self-regulate to an extent, and when they don't, that's what moderators are for. Again, all of this is confusing the issue. None of this is any different for Kickstarter than it is for any other deal, site, user, etc.
To an extent this is true. But preordering ANY game is a risk. Or any product, for that matter. The plan is for those projects to turn into tangible things. In fact, that's the whole point. A Kickstarter campaign not succeeding (or failing to produce) is no different than a shady website for a tangible product that never ships your order.
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laundrymatt
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No, I'm not confused at all. Perhaps, you are the one who is confused, because you are being told you are allowed to post it. A kickstarter is not a deal, sorry. This has nothing to do with me liking or disliking kickstarter. The poll is speaking for itself here.
There is a reason I stay away. Do you now want everyone to stay away? It's not like I want to stay away, it's just always cluttered with crap and full of wannabe mods. I have better things to do with my time than wade through all that. The forum needs cleaned up, not added to.
The poll has nothing to do with whether it is actually a deal or not. Lots of people like Justin Bieber; that doesn't mean he's a great musician. From a literal, factual standpoint, he is not. People are still free to like him if they want to. People are free to dislike Kickstarter. Or to believe that Kickstarter campaigns should not be allowed in the deals thread. But whether Kickstarters constitute "deals" is not actually in dispute.
I don't disagree with you about it being cluttered. Where I disagree is with your equating Kickstarters with cluttering crap. Adding Kickstarters would actually make me MORE likely to visit (since others might catch things on there that I didn't see). Others that don't like it can avoid those threads, just like I do now with 95% of the deals for stuff I don't want (and it sounds like you do too).
mbrown3, you certainly deserve points for artfulness in arguing that crowdfunding belongs in the deals forum by defining a deal as any transaction for goods between consenting parties.
If we instead define a deal as a discount, which I think most of us would agree is the relevant definition here, a Kickstarter project doesn't qualify unless the project explicitly states that the price to get the game as a backer reward is lower than the price of the game upon release. I don't see many projects that guarantee that buying in as a backer is cheaper than buying the game later. My own experience with Kickstarter is that I haven't saved money by backing projects instead of waiting to buy normally later.
I also don't think that you'll find much support among the members of this forum for your suggestion that the deals forum should be an instrument for fostering game development. The decision rests entirely with Cheapy, of course, but I think it bears pointing out that the name of this site is Cheap Ass Gamer, and the purpose of its main forum should be informed by that name.
If we instead define a deal as a discount, which I think most of us would agree is the relevant definition here, a Kickstarter project doesn't qualify unless the project explicitly states that the price to get the game as a backer reward is lower than the price of the game upon release. I don't see many projects that guarantee that buying in as a backer is cheaper than buying the game later. My own experience with Kickstarter is that I haven't saved money by backing projects instead of waiting to buy normally later.
I also don't think that you'll find much support among the members of this forum for your suggestion that the deals forum should be an instrument for fostering game development. The decision rests entirely with Cheapy, of course, but I think it bears pointing out that the name of this site is Cheap Ass Gamer, and the purpose of its main forum should be informed by that name.
guardian_owl
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It's not a deal, it is a gamble. The first issue is, if the kickstarter does not reach the goal, then all the funding is returned and no deal materializes. It transitions from potential deal into possible deal after it attains or exceeds its funding goal and even then it's not 100% as it is possible the kickstarterer will burn through all their cash before they finish development. It differs from a preorder because developers are fully funded via publishers if they run out of cash, the publisher either provides more money or the game is cancelled. If the game is cancelled the publisher eats the cost and preorder money is refunded to consumers. Even if a discount is offered as a part of the kickstarter as long as there is the chance that money will be taken from the consumer and no end product will be provided then it is not a deal.
Kickstarters should either be posted in the appropriate game forum (PS4, PC, Wii U, etc.) in off topic, or a new subsection should be created somewhere for crowdfunding.
Kickstarters should either be posted in the appropriate game forum (PS4, PC, Wii U, etc.) in off topic, or a new subsection should be created somewhere for crowdfunding.
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Fair enough (and thanks for the well-reasoned response, rather than just trolling). However, I would still argue the point. Almost every Kickstarter has very low-cost options, either to get the game or even just to help the developers. So it certainly applies for us gamers who are also cheapasses (and want to stay that way).
CheapLikeAFox
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I voted yes, but I don't care either way as long as there is consistency. To me people posting about collector's editions and pre-orders and rare hard to find games coming in stock at a high price are not deals and shouldn't be in the deals section, but they are. On the flip side, if there is a free game promotion going on for PC (and there have been a lot lately) the mods have a history of moving the post to the "free" section. Yet, if the game was $.01 then it would remain in the deals section. Makes absolutely no sense to me, but I guess paying a penny is more of a "deal" than getting something for free.
Most PC game kickstarters advertise that kickstarting the game will get you a better price than MSRP at retail. Wasteland 2 was $15 I think to kickstart and was $60 during early access and $40 after release. Defense Grid 2 is also another game that could be had for cheaper when it was kickstarted.
Everything on the site is buyer beware. People post deals from questionable sites all the time and Game Deal Daily seems to rip off a fair amount of CAGS every few months and keeps getting deals posted. People on CAG should be smart enough to understand what a Kickstarter is, decide to fund or not, and deal with the consequences. They don't need the site to protect them from getting ripped off.
Most PC game kickstarters advertise that kickstarting the game will get you a better price than MSRP at retail. Wasteland 2 was $15 I think to kickstart and was $60 during early access and $40 after release. Defense Grid 2 is also another game that could be had for cheaper when it was kickstarted.
Everything on the site is buyer beware. People post deals from questionable sites all the time and Game Deal Daily seems to rip off a fair amount of CAGS every few months and keeps getting deals posted. People on CAG should be smart enough to understand what a Kickstarter is, decide to fund or not, and deal with the consequences. They don't need the site to protect them from getting ripped off.
This exactly.
laundrymatt
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Again, that's great if the games that pique your interest offer discounts. But, again, most simply don't. You say that the amount of discount is irrelevant; but if that's how you feel, why are you on a site that prominently features discounts?
" Not all "deals" are good deals. Also the inclusion of extras doesn't factor into it. That's equivalent to preorder bonuses for any other game."
Exactly, so why waste time sorting through good deals and bad, when you could simply have only good deals posted? If a game's MSRP is $59.99 and a store offers it for $58.99, is it technically a deal? Yes, but is it worth knocking a better deal off the front page where most probably won't see it? No. And that's a big issue we run into with allowing Kickstarters to be posted there. Also, let's say Call of Duty offers an exclusive gun for preordering or Need for Speed offers an exclusive car for preordering. Again, while technically a deal, it isn't worth having a thread posted. Hence why there aren't threads for such trivial "bonuses".
Re: the rules, it's no different from any other of the rules here. Most communities self-regulate to an extent, and when they don't, that's what moderators are for. Again, all of this is confusing the issue. None of this is any different for Kickstarter than it is for any other deal, site, user, etc.
Let's create a hypothetical situation:
Developer Bob creates a Kickstarter project. He has a great vision for a game, and it is sure to pick up lots of attention. He doesn't offer any discounts off the final release price, but he offers higher tiers that offer soundtracks, concept arts, etc. Someone posts it here on CAG, and it becomes popular. That's great for Developer Bob, but what about the people who come to this site looking for a deal, not to fund an idea that may or may not come to fruition? Instead of seeing that the game they've been wanting has a limited time discount of X% off, they see the post about Developer Bob's game.
That's why they should not be allowed in the DEALS forum. There are plenty of other resources where people can go to hear about Developer Bob's game. So why should people who came here looking for deals have to go elsewhere to have easy access to legitimate deals?
Let's modify the situation: let's say that Developer Bob posted his own Kickstarter page. It became popular here, so there goes the self-regulation of the community. But how are the mods supposed to know that it was in fact Developer Bob that posted it?
Now, let's say a Walmart Rep posts that they are offering a popular game for MSRP. That would be pointless, right? Now, let's say that they post about the same game, but that they are offering it for 25% off MSRP. That's different, because there is actually a deal.
When I come to CAG to find deals on games, I go to the game deals section. When I want to talk about other miscellaneous topics, I go to the respective section dedicated to that. And I'd really prefer that it stay that way.
Again, you're posting your feelings about Kickstarter rather than the issue at hand. Any order can be canceled at any time. A kickstarter not reaching its goal is no different from limited edition games getting canceled when they oversell them. Or...whatever. A deal that doesn't go through is/was still a deal. You're right about Kickstarters that never end up finishing their product, but then you (or whoever) should choose which projects you back more carefully. That also has nothing to do with whether or not it is/was a deal. The U.S. failed to honor it's end of the deal it made with the Native Americans but that doesn't mean it wasn't a deal.
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kickrockz713
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It was moved to GG&N. CAG 1 - mbrown3 0
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I voted no for the main video game deal section but I would like to see a sub-section dedicated to crowdfunding.
The amount of discount is irrelevant. I'm on a site that features games that have discounts. Sometimes it's just $1 off, sometimes it's a lot. Most Kickstarter campaigns (almost all, in fact) do offer a discount from the release price. You can do a simple search to find that out.
How do you determine what is only a "good deal". That's impossible. A great deal to me is something you don't care about and vice versa.
I disagree with your hypothetical situation, because you're still using your (inaccurate) definition of a "deal".
Looks like we agree on this. I'd also like it to stay that way. Including Kickstarter deals.
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You keep saying that the percentage of discount is irrelevant. Please, do me a favor. Go look at the Video Game Deals section, and tell me how many threads you see that offer ~5% or less off MSRP. That would qualify as a bad deal, which is why you won't see many (if any at all) posted here. A "good deal" in the terms of what belongs in the game deals section OF THIS SITE is a deal that offers a sizable discount. You can say that the new Disgaea game will offer endless hours of entertainment, and as such is an excellent deal at MSRP, but posting that would defeat the purpose of this site (which is to find good deals for cheap asses like me and many others on this site).
Why are you so dead set on defending them being posted along with deals that offer discounts? Why not put them in their own section? If someone wants to support something on Kickstarter, they could go to that section instead.
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But you can't control the amount of discount that a deal is posted for. The problem with only allowing deals with a "sizeable" discount is that what is sizeable to me may not be sizeable to you. How do you define that? It's not a universal thing. Most Kickstarters offer tiers that provide discounts that are what I would easily consider "sizeable" (50% or more).
I am defending them because most of them DO offer discounts. I just don't see how they are any different from any other of the deals listed here. I have no problem with a sub-section of the deals area. But relegating them to general discussion or elsewhere means they will 1. not be seen as much, and 2. not be posted along with all other deals, which would be the appropriate area for them.
Why are YOU so dead set on them not being there? For the life of me I can't figure out why people are upset about this. I get if people don't like Kickstarter, but then...just don't click on the threads about Kickstarter. Why prevent everyone else from being able to see them, and obtain the deals on the games therein?
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Front page clutter. I can't figure out why you can't figure it out.
[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]I am cheap (and/or poor). I want to spend the least amount of money to play games. I come to this site to find deals. I want the main page to be only about deals. I cannot afford to gamble, if I could, I wouldn't be on this site.[/SIZE]
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OK. That's a good reason. Re: that issue, a designated thread (or sub-section) dedicated to crowd-funding makes sense. However, why is Kickstarter any different than any of the other crap that's on there now that is allowed to stay? That's the heart of that particular argument...where do you draw the line?
Re: the cheap/poor issue, It seems to me that cheap and/or poor people would be that much more interested in getting games for significant discounts over the release prices. Isn't that the point here? Yes, there is risk. But in my mind, part of being a cheapass gamer is getting any discount on any game I can. Personally I can afford to pay full price for games, but I'm cheap so I don't want to. So Kickstarter is a great way to do that. I got Original Sin for less than 50% of the release price. I got Wasteland 2 for less than 25%. Those are great discounts on two great games. Sharing those discounts seems to be the point of this site, no?
bread's done