Should we allow Kickstarters in the VGD forum?

It would be perfect for General Gaming, or the individual console forums if it's limited in its platform scope, but I don't see the need for them in the deals section along with news, demos, betas, and all that sort of non-deal stuff that people only post in the deals forum because it's the most trafficked forum on CAG. That would be my best idea because then the thread transitions from discussion of whether it's worth it to back the project to discussing its progress, news, and its eventual alphas/betas/releases if all goes well. Even the one angle of early bird backer discounts typically run out really quickly for any Kickstarter that will succeed, so if that's the only justification for it being a deal, then each thread would have to be moved elsewhere within the first day or two to make it more of a hassle than its worth.

The fact that it's not a complete guarantee that you'll get anything for the money you can spend on them should be enough to mean that it should get its own space for that stuff away from the deals. Giving them their own sub-forum would be a fine alternate.

 
mbrown3 said:
But you can't control the amount of discount that a deal is posted for. The problem with only allowing deals with a "sizeable" discount is that what is sizeable to me may not be sizeable to you. How do you define that? It's not a universal thing. Most Kickstarters offer tiers that provide discounts that are what I would easily consider "sizeable" (50% or more).

I am defending them because most of them DO offer discounts. I just don't see how they are any different from any other of the deals listed here. I have no problem with a sub-section of the deals area. But relegating them to general discussion or elsewhere means they will 1. not be seen as much, and 2. not be posted along with all other deals, which would be the appropriate area for them.

Why are YOU so dead set on them not being there? For the life of me I can't figure out why people are upset about this. I get if people don't like Kickstarter, but then...just don't click on the threads about Kickstarter. Why prevent everyone else from being able to see them, and obtain the deals on the games therein?
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You said it yourself earlier:

Most communities self-regulate to an extent, and when they don't, that's what moderators are for.
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It appears that most people here are against them being posted here, going by both votes and comments. So that would make it, to this community, a bad deal. Let's review another quote from you:

"Most Kickstarters offer tiers that provide discounts that are what I would easily consider "sizeable" (50% or more)."

Notice how that says most? Good for you if a handful that you ACTUALLY want have a noteworthy discount. What about all of the other junk that gets posted on Kickstarter? Just because Flappy Bird Clone #9892274 offers 25% off if you support it now does not mean that it is something that should be posted here. You are proposing that any Kickstarter with a discount should be allowed to be posted there. How can you justify allowing games like Flappy Bird Clone #9892274 to clog up this site, with only the occasional gem coming out as a result? It's simply not worth the clutter.

I already told you why I'm so dead set on them not being posted in the deals section. When I want to see deals on games, I go to the game deals section. Yes, Flappy Bird Clone #9892274 may offer 25% off, but if most people on this site have no interest in it (like you said earlier: self-regulation), then maybe it doesn't belong here.

 
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Nick45 said:
I already told you why I'm so dead set on them not being posted in the deals section. When I want to see deals on games, I go to the game deals section. Yes, Flappy Bird Clone #9892274 may offer 25% off, but if most people on this site have no interest in it (like you said earlier: self-regulation), then maybe it doesn't belong here.
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And what I'm saying is what makes Flappy Bird Clone #whatever any different from all of the crap that's already posted on here? It's unreasonable to throw the baby out with the bathwater. No good projects can get in because of the crappy projects? Then we should just shut the whole site down because too many of the deals aren't "good enough".

 
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mbrown3 said:
OK. That's a good reason. Re: that issue, a designated thread (or sub-section) dedicated to crowd-funding makes sense. However, why is Kickstarter any different than any of the other crap that's on there now that is allowed to stay? That's the heart of that particular argument...where do you draw the line?
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We have been fighting for clutter reduction on the main page for a long time. That's why MSRP posts gets reported and deleted. Shady websites that nobody have heard of gets reported and deleted. That's why the CE thread is a megathread. And bad deals (but still deals) gets sunk through no activity. Unfortunately it is an uphill battle due to the easiness of registration, and a side effect of CAG becoming more popular. Kickstarter is among the worst that we have been fighting against, and if it weren't for you, it wouldn't even be an issue.
mbrown3 said:
Re: the cheap/poor issue, It seems to me that cheap and/or poor people would be that much more interested in getting games for significant discounts over the release prices. Isn't that the point here? Yes, there is risk. But in my mind, part of being a cheapass gamer is getting any discount on any game I can. Personally I can afford to pay full price for games, but I'm cheap so I don't want to. So Kickstarter is a great way to do that. I got Original Sin for less than 50% of the release price. I got Wasteland 2 for less than 25%. Those are great discounts on two great games. Sharing those discounts seems to be the point of this site, no?
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Kickstarter is a gamble. If you don't think it is a gamble then I will walk away from this argument. The moment it becomes a gamble it is not a deal suited for cheap asses. A deal is simple. I pay less, I get game, I play game. [optional] I trade in game via promos so I can afford new games at well below MSRP [/optional]. There is no risk, no gamble. If you bring up the issue of there is risk in purchasing anything from any retailer again I will also walk away from this argument.

 
TooPoor said:
We have been fighting for clutter reduction on the main page for a long time. That's why MSRP posts gets reported and deleted. Shady websites that nobody have heard of gets reported and deleted. That's why the CE thread is a megathread. And bad deals (but still deals) gets sunk through no activity. Unfortunately it is an uphill battle due to the easiness of registration, and a side effect of CAG becoming more popular. Kickstarter is among the worst that we have been fighting against, and if it weren't for you, it wouldn't even be an issue.

Kickstarter is a gamble. If you don't think it is a gamble then I will walk away from this argument. The moment it becomes a gamble it is not a deal suited for cheap asses. A deal is simple. I pay less, I get game, I play game. [optional] I trade in game via promos so I can afford new games at well below MSRP [/optional]. There is no risk, no gamble. If you bring up the issue of there is risk in purchasing anything from any retailer again I will also walk away from this argument.
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I get the clutter issue. If bad or fraudulent projects get posted, report them and get them deleted. If it's that out of hand, more mods are needed. But where do we draw the line of good projects/deals being rejected because of the possibility that bad ones might get in? It seems to me that preventing good projects is an illogical response. If that many of the posted deals are bad, that's a separate issue. But preventing the legit projects/deals is not the answer to it.

Re: the gamble issue, it's not a factor if you back the right projects. I have zero regrets on any projects that I've backed. I have less satisfaction, overall, with B&M purchases than with projects funded via Kickstarter. If you have a bad experience with Best Buy (or whoever), then for you it's a gamble to shop there. That's not true of everyone, who may have had a great experience there. Do we leave out deals from Best Buy because of your experience, and the possibility that someone else might also have a bad experience? Whether people want to take the risk or not is up to them. We shouldn't prevent them the opportunity to take the risk just because we don't like it. And if said risk offers a significant discount, then why not share it?

 
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If you have a bad experience with a product at Best Buy, you can just return it and get your money back. If you have a bad experience with a Kickstarter project, you have to either hope the devs are able and willing to refund your money if it fails or prepare for a lawsuit to get it back. You back the right KS projects by doing some research, so it's obviously a factor at all times. You can limit the risk by backing established/veteran developers, but it's still a risk. Any random purchase at Best Buy rarely ends with you not being able to get at least some of your money back if things go really bad.

 
mbrown3 said:
And what I'm saying is what makes Flappy Bird Clone #whatever any different from all of the crap that's already posted on here? It's unreasonable to throw the baby out with the bathwater. No good projects can get in because of the crappy projects? Then we should just shut the whole site down because too many of the deals aren't "good enough".
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You aren't listening to what I'm saying. Let me simplify:

I, personally, hate first person shooters. I absolutely love RPGs. Now, I know that many people in the community here really like playing Call of Duty and Battlefield. I wouldn't consider buying either in the first place, but many here, in this community (emphasis on THIS community), were going to buy it anyway. This site's ultimate purpose is to allow those people to find it at a lower price, saving them money. Kickstarter is different. People don't go to Kickstarter hoping to find Call of Duty or Mario Kart, they go to find new, unheard of, unrealized indie games. Most people prefer to invest their money in games that they know things about, and can research them with tools such as gameplay videos and reviews at their disposal. The crowdfunding concept doesn't appeal to many people here, who prefer to buy games that they can research. So why should this community have to put up with a potentially endless clutter of games that will honestly only appeal to a handful of people in this community? News about Kickstarter games is obviously appealing to you, but it does not appeal to enough people on this site to diminish their experience here. Going back to my example of FPSs, while I personally hate them, I know that it appeals to enough people on this site for it to be worth posting here. I tolerate those posts, and people who don't like RPGs tolerate posts about them because they know that they will appeal to a significant amount of users here.

Unfortunately, the general consensus of this community is that we aren't interested in Kickstarter games. So why should we want people to spam the deals forum with Kickstarter projects when so few people will have any interest in them? It's a delicate system, so not everyone can be 100% satisfied.

With that said, perhaps I can recommend /r/indiegaming on Reddit to you. It features what seems to be what you're looking for: posts about games on Kickstarter.

 
FriskyTanuki said:
If you have a bad experience with a product at Best Buy, you can just return it and get your money back. If you have a bad experience with a Kickstarter project, you have to either hope the devs are able and willing to refund your money if it fails or prepare for a lawsuit to get it back. You back the right KS projects by doing some research, so it's obviously a factor at all times. You can limit the risk by backing established/veteran developers, but it's still a risk. Any random purchase at Best Buy rarely ends with you not being able to get at least some of your money back if things go really bad.
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That's a good point, but that's not the kind of bad experience I meant. I mean the kind where you buy something and it doesn't work, and they won't take it back or give a refund because it's broken (even though you told them you got it that way). Best Buy isn't the best example because they tend to have pretty good customer service. But you know the kind of thing I mean. Everyone has one place they hate to shop because of a bad experience there. I'm just saying we shouldn't keep out legit projects just because of the possibility of some bad ones or ones that don't come through. And contrary to the popular opinion around here, there are ways to ensure you're only backing the projects that are likely to happen. Yes it's still a risk but it can be minimized, to the point where in over 100 backed projects I've only had one that didn't come through, and it wasn't for a game (and all but 3 of the projects I've funded have been games).

 
Nick45 said:
Unfortunately, the general consensus of this community is that we aren't interested in Kickstarter games. So why should we want people to spam the deals forum with Kickstarter projects when so few people will have any interest in them? It's a delicate system, so not everyone can be 100% satisfied.
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True enough, though ultimately it doesn't matter. Only CheapyD's opinion/decision matters. It's a class move to solicit input from the community, but it's his decision.

And, for what it's worth, I'll personally be fine with whatever he decides. It's his site and his call on what gets in or out. He'll make the call, and we'll live with it. Some of us will support him and move on (myself included), others will still complain. It's the nature of the interwebz.

It sounds like the most logical decision is to create a Deals sub-section for crowd-funding. That way it stays in the deals section (where it belongs) but is segregated for the people who don't want to see it. In fact, that's a good idea for other kinds of deals too...it would clean up some of the existing clutter a bit, at the cost of a little bit of visibility. But it seems like most of us would be content with that...a good compromise. But that's up to CheapyD.

 
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So, there's only one person defending this to be put on the deals section, and multiple saying no? So we have our answer then right?

Please don't put this on the deals, kick starters should have their own section or go in general gaming.
 
Equistina said:
So, there's only one person defending this to be put on the deals section, and multiple saying no? So we have our answer then right?
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No, there are several. Just one that is zealous. ;-)

But it's not our answer anyway. It's CheapyD's.
 
Nick45 said:
Unfortunately, the general consensus of this community is that we aren't interested in Kickstarter games. So why should we want people to spam the deals forum with Kickstarter projects when so few people will have any interest in them? It's a delicate system, so not everyone can be 100% satisfied.
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I'm not sure how you came up with that conclusion when the poll is just for whether we want them in the Deals forum. I think most people here would be fine with them being posted elsewhere on the site. They just don't need to be in the Deals forum.

 
FriskyTanuki said:
I'm not sure how you came up with that conclusion when the poll is just for whether we want them in the Deals forum. I think most people here would be fine with them being posted elsewhere on the site. They just don't need to be in the Deals forum.
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Perhaps I tried to simplify it too much in that specific post. I actually had mentioned previously in this thread that I wasn't opposed to a separate section.

 
This is the internet mbrown3. Even when you're trying to state the facts, no one wants to read it through a forum. It's like throwing more firewood into the bonfire and it'll go on and on until no one wants to throw any more firewood.

In general, I'm not taking sides here. I nulled my vote and I saw the majority leads to no. Sure a Kickstarter thing might be a deal but some doesn't think so. A console bundle may be a deal but not to others, with the usual post "not a deal" and so on.

But this is CheapyD's site. He'll decide what is best for the site and the community.

 
mbrown3 said:
Potato salad is nasty. But I bet Kairosoft could make a game about it and it would be awesome.
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So by your logic and millions of posts, you will buy a kickstarter game about a potato salad fps or potato craft (assuming you love these genre games) if you could "back" the game for $15 instead of its "eventual" msrp value of $60. That's great but deals we want/need are from call of duty(yes ghost sucks but for $10, I sure bought it), and mine craft (best buy selling for $15 plus 20% gamers club) are what drive people here. You and your 14 friends who vote yes(as of now) can petition for a sub forum where all the kick starting loving people can commute properly, nicely, and WELCOMED. Yes you mentioned a million times it only matters what cheapyD says but the community drives this website and our voices(texts) do get heard. Either that go to reddit in that indie gaming website. Also if you are going to reply to this, respond to every point I've mentioned instead of just one thing you can voice a positive aspect to it.


And yes to potato salad because it's not a kickstarter game but the next EA title with MMO capabilities and 3 alternate endings including the alien and dog ending
 
I really just think they need to be on a separate thread or even a separate forum. If every video game on Kickstarter that looked "cool" got a thread on the VGD forum, the first page would be riddled with them. One or two Kickstarter games on the VGD forum isn't all that bad, but I wouldn't see it staying that way, and in the long run I don't think it's going to appeal to the average user of this site. I can't really give opinions as the average user of this site, but... that's the point of this poll I suppose.

Personally, I wish I had some outlet for interesting new Kickstarter games, just not Cheapassgamer's VGD section. When Black Friday comes around, I really really really don't want to sift through Kickstarter threads.

 
No. If I wanted Kickstarter news, I'd subscribe to their RSS. Pretty simple to me.

Sidenote, multiple threads with titles like "KS for CCG fans" and then getting shitty when a mod nukes it is kind of over the top. Sure, you knew what you were posting about, but I had to read the thread to interpret all the abbreviations. Highly annoying, aside from my personal opinion about Kickstarters not being a deal.
 
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No, the video game deals board should only be for actual deals (savings, discounts, etc).

And while we're discussing this, CheapyD also mentioned that people post pre-order threads all the time and those are not a problem - although IMO they don't belong on the deals board either.  There are other boards where those topics would be more appropriate - such as Shopping Discussions, General Gaming & News, or even the Sony/MS/Nintendo boards.

 
The deals forum should be used to get the best price on an item a user wishes to purchase. There is no way to get a better purchase price on Kickstarter. It is not as if you can use a 25% off coupon on Kickstarter or go to a different retailer to get a better Kickstarter deal or take part in a buy 3 get 1 one free Kickstarter deal. The price of Kickstarter deals are fixed, therefore, it is irrelevant to talk about them in the deals form. However, there is much need for a Kickstarter thread in a relevant forum, so users can find about the best Kickstarter games and discuss them.

 
on the topic of pre order threads if something actually sells out. then comes back in stock I dont have a problem with a new thread. I dont always check the ce thread so to know if the batmobile is back a new thread is nice

 
a kickstarter game might turn in to a deal or it might not.  But it isn't by default a deal.  It's always the going rate of the product at the time. That's not a deal.

Kickstarters are  exactly the same thing as a collector's edition.  Nice to get a heads up but not necessarily limited and not necessarily below MSRP.   For every Mass Effect 2, there's a Halo Cat Helmet.  

As i said before, give it its own megathread and then we can all ignore or follow as we choose.   

 
BryanDGAF said:
So by your logic and millions of posts, you will buy a kickstarter game about a potato salad fps or potato craft (assuming you love these genre games) if you could "back" the game for $15 instead of its "eventual" msrp value of $60. That's great but deals we want/need are from call of duty(yes ghost sucks but for $10, I sure bought it), and mine craft (best buy selling for $15 plus 20% gamers club) are what drive people here. You and your 14 friends who vote yes(as of now) can petition for a sub forum where all the kick starting loving people can commute properly, nicely, and WELCOMED. Yes you mentioned a million times it only matters what cheapyD says but the community drives this website and our voices(texts) do get heard. Either that go to reddit in that indie gaming website. Also if you are going to reply to this, respond to every point I've mentioned instead of just one thing you can voice a positive aspect to it.


And yes to potato salad because it's not a kickstarter game but the next EA title with MMO capabilities and 3 alternate endings including the alien and dog ending
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I would respond to every point you've mentioned if you had actually made any.

 
Bumslie said:
Seeing this Kickstarter appear a few times on the deals side of the site is like a hooker with herpes that will not take NO for an answer.

Cheapy D if you read this keep the herpes off CAG!
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hey some people here enjoy the thrill of trying to beat the odds.

 
I'm not really sure why there can't be a separate forum for e-begging? That would make the most sense.

CheapyD said:
People post pre-orders for collectors editions, etc all the time and it doesn't seem to be a problem. This is similar. If you have an issue, you can send me message or email at cheapyd/gmail. If you are posting to troll, you will be moderated. Thank you for your cooperation

EDIT: I'm happy to have the community vote and discuss the issue here: http://www.cheapassgamer.com/topic/336488-should-we-allow-kickstarters-in-the-vgd-forum/
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Also, I like how there's now a thread requesting people's opinions on the matter even though the first response was, in so many words, "anything that goes against what I say is trolling and will be deleted, keep your dissent over PM or email where other people can't see it."

 
Schildkrote said:
I'm not really sure why there can't be a separate forum for e-begging? That would make the most sense.



Also, I like how there's now a thread requesting people's opinions on the matter even though the first response was, in so many words, "anything that goes against what I say is trolling and will be deleted, keep your dissent over PM or email where other people can't see it."
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There's nothing wrong with cheapy soliciting feedback.
 
Confucius said:
There's nothing wrong with cheapy soliciting feedback.
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I agree, there's not, but I think there's something wrong with the initial response of "because I said so" when people asked why someone was posting their e-begging thread in the deals forum. It's nice that he's backpedaling now, but it's questionable why this was even an issue in the first place.

 
I dunno. In that initial thread it seemed to me the "because [cheapy] said so" was more pushed by htz and mbrown than cheapy himself.
 
Confucius said:
I dunno. In that initial thread it seemed to me the "because [cheapy] said so" was more pushed by htz and mbrown than cheapy himself.
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When I first saw the kickstarter threads created by mBrown, I removed them. He questioned me in a PM as to why he can't list it there. I asked him to PM CheapyD about it. CheapyD approved and re-opened the thread. I had limited options at that time as to what I can do but to ask people to stop trolling the thread. Also to voice their concerns with CheapyD but nobody listened. My job is to keep the forums clean but sometimes things are out of my control.

 
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I wasn't blaming you. Just seemed the dude was pointing a finger at cheapy and it didn't seem like cheapy was pulling the "I own this place" card.
 
Confucius said:
I wasn't blaming you. Just seemed the dude was pointing a finger at cheapy and it didn't seem like cheapy was pulling the "I own this place" card.
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I know but I think it is best if I explain what happened yesterday with that thread. Cheapy also never suggested to me he approved the thread because he owned the place. Even though we all know he has the right to allow anything he wants.

 
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Schildkrote said:
I'm not really sure why there can't be a separate forum for e-begging? That would make the most sense.

Also, I like how there's now a thread requesting people's opinions on the matter even though the first response was, in so many words, "anything that goes against what I say is trolling and will be deleted, keep your dissent over PM or email where other people can't see it."
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Actually they just wanted to keep the discussion out of the other thread so it didn't clutter it up. It made sense to start a new one dedicated to this discussion rather than making all of the discussion in the other one off topic.

Schildkrote said:
I agree, there's not, but I think there's something wrong with the initial response of "because I said so" when people asked why someone was posting their e-begging thread in the deals forum. It's nice that he's backpedaling now, but it's questionable why this was even an issue in the first place.
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e-begging = not as funny as you seem to think it is. And why shouldn't he say, "because I said so"? It's his site; he can do whatever he wants. However, as I noted, that's really not what he said anyway, nor did anyone claim he said that. He just didn't want the discussion clogging the other thread.

Both htz and CheapyD are just doing their jobs. Giving them crap is not going to help.

 
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A.) Voted No. Although I've supported a couple of Kickstarters in my day and have plugged a few on a couple of different forums, they're not really deals. I'll get into that in a second.
B.) I would not be upset if they were allowed, although I'd prefer a single thread or a sub-forum somewhere.
C.) Please stop equating Kickstarters (and the like) to "Pre-Orders". They're not. In any way. The purpose of Kickstarter is "Person wants to make something, needs funds. People give that person funds in order for that person to be able to make the something and generally, person gives them a reward in return." Granted, there are some folks that have turned KS into a "Pre-Order" site, using it to fund an initial order and get some social media coverage - but that's what what Kickstarter is intended to be. As much crap as the potato salad Kickstarter gets, it is more in-line with the stated goal of Kickstarter than, say, Indie Board and Games using Kickstarter to fund the initial shipment of their newest game (and I've helped fund two of those). This is why Kickstarter isn't a deal - because your donation isn't for a reward - it's to help the creator of the site bring their product to life. The reward is intended to be something to encourage you to give, not a purchase. To quote Kickstarter themselves:

Kickstarter is a new way to fund creative projects.
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Kickstarter is not a store.
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UncleBob said:
This is why Kickstarter isn't a deal - because your donation isn't for a reward - it's to help the creator of the site bring their product to life.
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It's still a deal (two parties entering into a mutually beneficial arrangement). If we only want to allow discounts, it should be called the video game DISCOUNTS forum.

 
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No, it's not a deal. You're giving money so that the other person can create a project.

Backers are supporting projects to help them come to life, not to profit financially.
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You don't give money in exchange for stuff. You give money to help create. This is the purpose of Kickstarter.
 
mbrown3 said:
It's still a deal (two parties entering into a mutually beneficial arrangement). If we only want to allow discounts, it should be called the video game DISCOUNTS forum.
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headdesk.gif.gif
 
UncleBob said:
No, it's not a deal. You're giving money so that the other person can create a project.


You don't give money in exchange for stuff. You give money to help create. This is the purpose of Kickstarter.
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You may not like it (or, like some, feel like I'm beating this horse), but you simply can't argue against the meaning of a word. It's in every dictionary.

 
mbrown3 said:
You may not like it (or, like some, feel like I'm beating this horse), but you simply can't argue against the meaning of a word. It's in every dictionary.
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"Deal" has a lot of different definitions, but this seems to be the closest to what you're stating.

a business transaction
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But this isn't a business transaction - and as Kickstarter says, they're not a store.

I'm not arguing the specific definition of the word that you're choosing to use (in spite of the fact there are 26 different definitions listed on Dictionary.com). I'm saying that you are incorrect, even with the specific definition you are choosing to use. Kickstarter isn't for conducting business - it's for funding the creation of art.
 
UncleBob said:
I'm not arguing the specific definition of the word that you're choosing to use (in spite of the fact there are 26 different definitions listed on Dictionary.com). I'm saying that you are incorrect, even with the specific definition you are choosing to use. Kickstarter isn't for conducting business - it's for funding the creation of art.
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Funding the creation of art IS conducting business.

 
Now you're just getting ridiculous. By your definition, every time I buy something vg related, I should be able to post it in the deals forum.
 
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mbrown3 said:
e-begging = not as funny as you seem to think it is. And why shouldn't he say, "because I said so"? It's his site; he can do whatever he wants. However, as I noted, that's really not what he said anyway, nor did anyone claim he said that. He just didn't want the discussion clogging the other thread.

Both htz and CheapyD are just doing their jobs. Giving them crap is not going to help.
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Who's being funny? That's what Kickstarter is: e-begging. Putting a trendy name on it doesn't change what it is, especially when Kickstarter itself goes out of its way to point out that it's not a purchase, investment or donation. Most sites had to make rules forbidding Kickstarter spam because otherwise people wouldn't stop begging for free money all over the place. It looks awful and clutters up useful posts, so it's good that this site is considering doing the same.

Also, re: "funding the creation of art" - maybe, but these are video games we're talking about. O:)

 
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