Struggling to Get By On 250K

[quote name='camoor']Homework assignment for you: look up how much America is spending on the two foreign wars. Then compare that to the cost of every single social program out there added together. You can come back when you have the answer.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure you want anyone to do that?

Here's a website against war spending. Here are their numbers...
http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm

For 2009, they claim $200 Billion for the wars.
They claim $797.7 Billion for "Human Resources" (this doesn't include the $94 Billion in veteran's benefits, which one could argue is a social program).

Granted, this is just for one year, not the length of the entire war... but something tells me if we took the time to look up every single year, it wouldn't be very different.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Are you sure you want anyone to do that?

Here's a website against war spending. Here are their numbers...
http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm

For 2009, they claim $200 Billion for the wars.
They claim $797.7 Billion for "Human Resources" (this doesn't include the $94 Billion in veteran's benefits, which one could argue is a social program).

Granted, this is just for one year, not the length of the entire war... but something tells me if we took the time to look up every single year, it wouldn't be very different.[/QUOTE]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2921527420080302?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&sp=true

According to that, it was $845 billion total back in March 2008 with us spending about 16 billion a month. If that number stayed the same, that would put us at about 1.325 trillion total so far (being conservative)

- edit And that is just for the Iraq war.

Their book argues that total bill all together (with the Afghanistan war) will end up costing us around 7 trillion dollars.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Are you sure you want anyone to do that?

Here's a website against war spending. Here are their numbers...
http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm

For 2009, they claim $200 Billion for the wars.
They claim $797.7 Billion for "Human Resources" (this doesn't include the $94 Billion in veteran's benefits, which one could argue is a social program).

Granted, this is just for one year, not the length of the entire war... but something tells me if we took the time to look up every single year, it wouldn't be very different.[/QUOTE]

Anyone can play Enron and move money around all day until it lines up nicely with their preconceived notions. Why don't you conservatives stand up and act like men. You went out and bought two preemptive wars, own up to the cost.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, and there is no such thing as a free war. The Iraq adventure has seriously weakened the U.S. economy, whose woes now go far beyond loose mortgage lending. You can't spend $3 trillion -- yes, $3 trillion -- on a failed war abroad and not feel the pain at home.
...
The end result of all this wishful thinking? As we approach the fifth anniversary of the invasion, Iraq is not only the second longest war in U.S. history (after Vietnam), it is also the second most costly -- surpassed only by World War II.
Why doesn't the public understand the staggering scale of our expenditures? In part because the administration talks only about the upfront costs, which are mostly handled by emergency appropriations. (Iraq funding is apparently still an emergency five years after the war began.) These costs, by our calculations, are now running at $12 billion a month -- $16 billion if you include Afghanistan. By the time you add in the costs hidden in the defense budget, the money we'll have to spend to help future veterans, and money to refurbish a military whose equipment and materiel have been greatly depleted, the total tab to the federal government will almost surely exceed $1.5 trillion.
But the costs to our society and economy are far greater. When a young soldier is killed in Iraq or Afghanistan, his or her family will receive a U.S. government check for just $500,000 (combining life insurance with a "death gratuity") -- far less than the typical amount paid by insurance companies for the death of a young person in a car accident. The stark "budgetary cost" of $500,000 is clearly only a fraction of the total cost society pays for the loss of life -- and no one can ever really compensate the families. Moreover, disability pay seldom provides adequate compensation for wounded troops or their families. Indeed, in one out of five cases of seriously injured soldiers, someone in their family has to give up a job to take care of them.
But beyond this is the cost to the already sputtering U.S. economy. All told, the bill for the Iraq war is likely to top $3 trillion. And that's a conservative estimate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/07/AR2008030702846.html
 
[quote name='Sporadic']

That's the ironic part. My friend is a big Glenn Beck fan who spouts off fun stuff like "That's America. If you work hard or have a great idea, you can move up regardless of your standing. If that janitor just works hard or comes up with a great idea, he can be a millionaire. It's not fair to punish the rich for being successful. They earned that money, they should be able to keep all of it." Which is funny because A) he's implying that poor people are that way because they are lazy/stupid and B) he's a fucking 40+ year old UPS driver. That's not a bad job and he's able to support himself/his family but by his own logic he's either lazy or stupid since he hasn't made any movement job wise in 20+ years. He works hard, he has a bad back as a result; Why hasn't he been rewarded by moving up the UPS ladder?

[/QUOTE]

Are we now arguing that making $250,000 a year is a human right? Since not everyone can make $250,000 we should let the government step in to fix screw things up? Thats a great argument for rich people to pay their proportion in taxes in relation to their income, but it is a ridiculous argument to ask for more.

Here's an idea, why doesn't the government make people pay their taxes in proportion to their income, and not spend more than what they bring in? If we cannot afford some entitlement, then we can't afford it period, find something to cut that we don't necessarily need to make room for it. This would make the government quite a bit more efficient.

[quote name='dohdough']
Where are you getting these numbers for total taxes paid?

Btw, it's not really about being able to be taxed more and being able to maintain the lifestyle. It's really about the person benefiting more from his tax contributions than someone making less. A person making that kind of money doesn't make that kind of money because they do all the work themselves. There's a system in place that allows work to be refined to a point in which they make their own adjustments to it. Someone at the top needs an army of people to keep them there. You simply cannot have a successful anything without a proper base. It's a very simple concept that's fairly universal.

Oh, as for your love for your fellow working stiff? It's never shown up in this forum.

Or how about lets bring back the marginal tax rates for when the country was most prosperous? Or how about we roll back the tax rates to that commie socialist secret Kenyan Ronald Reagan?
[/QUOTE]

Its a rough calculation of taxes they would have to pay based on the progressive brackets. Everyones situation is different, some will pay more, some will pay less.

Anyways you are saying the person paying more taxes benefits more from the taxes than people making less because they will work better because of his donations? If only that were true, and we weren't just donating all this money to a giant bureaucracy not really understanding what we are getting, and people receiving these benefits from the government would see these benefits as encouragement to work harder, and be more productive. Too bad.

Also your precious marginal tax rates would raise taxes on every single class, but maybe we should just do it for the rich right? :roll:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

Its the tax foundation which some of you find bias, but it isn't exactly an editorial.
 
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[quote name='Knoell']Are we now arguing that making $250,000 a year is a human right?[/quote]

Do you happen to feel that whatever it is you do all day worth less than ten dollars an hour?

It doesn't strike you odd that productivity has been increasing steadily for practically as long as wages have stagnated or fallen?
 
[quote name='camoor']Anyone can play Enron and move money around all day until it lines up nicely with their preconceived notions. Why don't you conservatives stand up and act like men. You went out and bought two preemptive wars, own up to the cost.[/QUOTE]

Weird - I took the numbers from an anti-war website. I'd assume their pre-conceived notions would be against the money being spent on war.

And no, *I* did not go out and support these wars. In fact, I was very outspoken against the Iraqi war and wasn't a fan of the Afghanistan war.

Meanwhile, our current SoS voted for the wars. Go her.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Do you happen to feel that whatever it is you do all day worth less than ten dollars an hour?

It doesn't strike you odd that productivity has been increasing steadily for practically as long as wages have stagnated or fallen?[/QUOTE]

He also missed the big point of that section of my post.

That my friend is against taxing the rich because he thinks that anybody can make it to that level if they work hard enough or have a genius idea. More specifically, he is against taxing the rich because he thinks that he will be rich one day and doesn't want his future money taken away. When the fact is, he isn't going to reach that level and neither are most of us. The janitor he talks about could work his hardest, put everything he has into that job and still end up making dick.

He fucked up his back and put 20+ years into a job/company and he'll still be a UPS driver until he is finally able to retire or he fucks up his body so bad he's unable to continue working. There's no upward movement for him.

These people are working against their own interests because they have some pipe dream that eventually they will be rewarded for all of their hard work with millions of dollars and that it will be their turn to eat out of the trough....when it's complete bullshit.

They also have the belief that the people below them are there because those people are lazy so fuck them, cut all social programs.

It's just craziness.
 
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People don't have the right to be given $250,000, but they should have the ability to pursue the $250,000 dream within an environment where there is a reasonable chance for success. America was founded on the principle that everyone has the right to pursue happiness and that this was the sort of environment America ought to foster. We can all harp on the percentages of people that fail any day of week--whatever character deficiencies or underdog attributes those persons do or do not possess--but the creation of an environment where the average American can perceive some glimmer of advancement, not because of special needs or special cases but as a normal condition of man--that my friends, is no easy task to wag tongues about.
 
[quote name='camoor']2008 Article on cost of Iraq and Afghanistan Wars[/QUOTE]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2611591520100126

Reuters states that, circa 2010, the cost of those two wars amounts to only about 1 trillion, not 3. I'm even suspicious of the 1 trillion figure for the following reason:

Estimates of the cost per troop per year in Afghanistan vary from $500,000 to $1 million depending on whether expenditures on troop housing and equipment are included along with pay, food and fuel. Medical costs for the injured and veterans' compensation balloon as time goes on.
Half a million and one million per soldier is a pretty wide ballpark to throw down. Do all injured soldiers receive compensation based on an exponential curve over time? I can't be sure. I bet you though that I could construct a graph where everybody in the population would need (supposedly) more expensive medical treatments as they got older. They might not even receive these treatments, these "costs to society", but it sure looks nice for making an impressive number on paper.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Its a rough calculation of taxes they would have to pay based on the progressive brackets. Everyones situation is different, some will pay more, some will pay less.[/quote]
A rough calculation sourced from?

Anyways you are saying the person paying more taxes benefits more from the taxes than people making less because they will work better because of his donations? If only that were true, and we weren't just donating all this money to a giant bureaucracy not really understanding what we are getting, and people receiving these benefits from the government would see these benefits as encouragement to work harder, and be more productive. Too bad.
No, I said that no one makes it on their own and that personal utility does not equal net benefit. What I said wasn't difficult to understand. Taxes are not donations, it's the cost required to maintain the system that we all live in. It's not a complex concept.

Also your precious marginal tax rates would raise taxes on every single class, but maybe we should just do it for the rich right? :roll:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

Its the tax foundation which some of you find bias, but it isn't exactly an editorial.
You sourced a conservative think tank. Congratulations on being a know-nothing.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']Sorry.

You aren't that special.

That student I had working for me comes from a family that has $1 million in assets and he was too embarrassed to ask them for help so he comes to me. Don't you ever tell me about fair share of profits. I don't have it like that. I am doing the work of two people because my bosses won't let me have more permanent help. This is despite the fact that our sales went up 30% last year. Did I mention I pay my temps at the highest hourly wage allowed by my company for their job classification and not minimum wage? Did I mention I am not even at mid-range for my payscale? I don't get overtime and often work 70 hours a week. Don't presume to tell me I didn't give a fair share of anything when I did all that I could AND was undermanned. I'm a grunt, not a CEO. I did the same temp work before I ever got to my position and I still do it now.

Remove burdens? My parents were terrible with money. They filed bankruptcy and we were homeless. Don't you ever presume to tell me anything about what I have been through. I know what it is like to not know where you next meal is coming from AS A CHILD. I promised myself I would never be as irresponsible as my mother was with money AS AN ADULT. I know for a fact that a lot of what happens to a person is based on personal choice. I've seen it first hand. Are some things out of a person's control? Sure. But I speak from experience that people need to think further into the future than what they do.[/QUOTE]
And who does it serve to have the views you do? Your boss. So maybe instead of ranting against people that have the least, maybe you should direct that energy to those that have the most cause the only one you're screwing is yourself. If you really think that personal choice is the most important variable, then you'd be moving yourself to another job where you're paid what you're "worth." The fact that the temp has a rich family is irrelevant when you can't even get more for yourself. Over 90% of the population doesn't have a rich family. But hey, if you want to keep fighting for people that give you breadcrumbs instead of giving you what you "deserve," well, I guess that's your choice, or maybe you should rethink your views.
 
[quote name='Clak']Oh look, now Ben Stein is whining too.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/19/sunday/commentaries/main6881440.shtml

Yeah he doesn't have kids in public school, why should he have to pay for public education! Only people like this could whine about taxes while admitting to owning multiple pieces of real estate. You poor disadvantaged man.[/QUOTE]

I wish we could ship him to a desert island where he can sit in perfect isolation on top of all of his money.

- edit Even better, he went to public school. "YEAH I TOOK ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM WHEN I WAS A KID BUT NOW I'M RICH SO fuck THOSE KIDS! THEY DON'T DESERVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES I HAD!"

- edit 2 [quote name='Ben Stein']I am not asking for any tears. I live a great life, have a fabulous wife, a great son and daughter-in-law, four wonderful, furry dogs and six cats, all adopted. I have more than enough to eat.[/QUOTE]

Then what are you bitching about? Why do you feel you are being punished when this is just previous tax cuts expiring and you have more than enough in life?

- edit 3 And wow, the comments are actually rational compared to comment sections on other sites.

[quote name='elisha201']Not only did Bill get it right when he talked about how "hard" this guy has had to work for his money, but no one is even mentioning that he just got paid to bitch about how awesome his life is. All these people are doing is smearing it in our face with just how awesome their lives are in hopes that because being wealthy is the American dream, we will see ourselves in that position and not want to give up any of our money either. Unfortunately most Americans will never have that much money. That's why they are in the top 10%. 90% of us will never get there. One thing some people don't realize is the estate tax is for extremely wealthy people. To even have what is considered an estate you must be very well off. If you were left with under $650,000 (or did Bush raise it to a million, I forget) this doesn't apply to you. Who the hell leaves 650,000 behind? Not my parents. I would have a heart attack if someone left me with 650,000. I would be so damn grateful that I would gladly give 55%. Because that would mean I still have roughly 360,000. I could pay off my student loans, buy a lovely house, a car, set some aside for investing and still have some left over to give to others in need. I don't need a million dollar home or a mercedes to feel good about myself. I, like a lot of the American's these rich people are insulting, would just be happy with modest.[/QUOTE]

- edit 4 Bill Maher ripped him apart.

New Rule: The next rich person who publicly complains about being vilified by the Obama administration must be publicly vilified by the Obama administration. It's so hard for one person to tell another person what constitutes being "rich", or what tax rate is "too much." But I've done some math that indicates that, considering the hole this country is in, if you are earning more than a million dollars a year and are complaining about a 3.6% tax increase, then you are by definition a greedy asshole.

And let's be clear: that's 3.6% only on income above 250 grand -- your first 250, that's still on the house. Now, this week we got some horrible news: that one in seven Americans are now living below the poverty line. But I want to point you to an American who is truly suffering: Ben Stein. You know Ben Stein, the guy who got rich because when he talks it sounds so boring it's actually funny. He had a game show on Comedy Central, does eye drop commercials, doesn't believe in evolution? Yeah, that asshole. I kid Ben -- so, the other day Ben wrote an article about his struggle. His struggle as a wealthy person facing the prospect of a slightly higher marginal tax rate. Specifically, Ben said that when he was finished paying taxes and his agents, he was left with only 35 cents for every dollar he earned. Which is shocking, Ben Stein has an agent? I didn't know Broadway Danny Rose was still working.

Ben whines in his article about how he's worked for every dollar he has -- if by work you mean saying the word "Bueller" in a movie 25 years ago. Which doesn't bother me in the slightest, it's just that at a time when people in America are desperate and you're raking in the bucks promoting some sleazy Free Credit Score dot-com... maybe you shouldn't be asking us for sympathy. Instead, you should be down on your knees thanking God and/or Ronald Reagan that you were lucky enough to be born in a country where a useless schmuck who contributes absolutely nothing to society can somehow manage to find himself in the top marginal tax bracket.

And you're welcome to come on the show anytime.

Now I can hear you out there saying, "Come on Bill, don't be so hard on Ben Stein, he does a lot of voiceover work, and that's hard work." Ok, it's true, Ben is hardly the only rich person these days crying like a baby who's fallen off his bouncy seat. Last week Mayor Bloomberg of New York complained that all his wealthy friends are very upset with mean ol' President Poopy-Pants: He said they all say the same thing: "I knew I was going to have to pay more taxes. But I didn't expect to be vilified." Poor billionaires -- they just can't catch a break.

First off, far from being vilified, we bailed you out -- you mean we were supposed to give you all that money and kiss your ass, too? That's Hollywood you're thinking of. FDR, he knew how to vilify; this guy, not so much. And second, you should have been vilified -- because you're the vill-ains! I'm sure a lot of you are very nice people. And I'm sure a lot of you are jerks. In other words, you're people. But you are the villains. Who do you think outsourced all the jobs, destroyed the unions, and replaced workers with desperate immigrants and teenagers in China. Joe the Plumber?

And right now, while we run trillion dollar deficits, Republicans are holding America hostage to the cause of preserving the Bush tax cuts that benefit the wealthiest 1% of people, many of them dead. They say that we need to keep taxes on the rich low because they're the job creators. They're not. They're much more likely to save money through mergers and outsourcing and cheap immigrant labor, and pass the unemployment along to you.

Americans think rich people must be brilliant; no -- just ruthless. Meg Whitman is running for Governor out here, and her claim to fame is, she started e-Bay. Yes, Meg tapped into the Zeitgeist, the zeitgeist being the desperate need of millions of Americans to scrape a few dollars together by selling the useless crap in their garage. What is e-Bay but a big cyber lawn sale that you can visit without putting your clothes on?

Another of my favorites, Congresswoman Michele Bachmann said, "I don't know where they're going to get all this money, because we're running out of rich people in this country." Actually, we have more billionaires here in the U.S. than all the other countries in the top ten combined, and their wealth grew 27% in the last year. Did yours? Truth is, there are only two things that the United States is not running out of: Rich people and bullshit. Here's the truth: When you raise taxes slightly on the wealthy, it obviously doesn't destroy the economy -- we know this, because we just did it -- remember the '90's? It wasn't that long ago. You were probably listening to grunge music, or dabbling in witchcraft. Clinton moved the top marginal rate from 36 to 39% -- and far from tanking, the economy did so well he had time to get his dick washed.

Even 39% isn't high by historical standards. Under Eisenhower, the top tax rate was 91%. Under Nixon, it was 70%. Obama just wants to kick it back to 39 -- just three more points for the very rich. Not back to 91, or 70. Three points. And they go insane. Steve Forbes said that Obama, quote "believes from his inner core that people... above a certain income have more than they should have and that many probably have gotten it from ill-gotten ways." Which they have. Steve Forbes, of course, came by his fortune honestly: he inherited it from his gay egg-collecting, Elizabeth Taylor $$$-hagging father, who inherited it from his father. Of course then they moan about the inheritance tax, how the government took 55% percent when Daddy died -- which means you still got 45% for doing nothing more than starting out life as your father's pecker-snot.

We don't hate rich people, but have a little humility about how you got it and stop complaining. Maybe the worst whiner of all: Stephen Schwarzman, #69 on Forbes' list of richest Americans, compared Obama's tax hike to "when Hitler invaded Poland in 1939." Wow. If Obama were Hitler, Mr. Schwarzman, I think your tax rate would be the least of your worries.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/new-rule-rich-people-who-_b_737429.html
 
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[quote name='Indigo_Streetlight']http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2611591520100126

Reuters states that, circa 2010, the cost of those two wars amounts to only about 1 trillion, not 3. I'm even suspicious of the 1 trillion figure for the following reason:

Half a million and one million per soldier is a pretty wide ballpark to throw down. Do all injured soldiers receive compensation based on an exponential curve over time? I can't be sure. I bet you though that I could construct a graph where everybody in the population would need (supposedly) more expensive medical treatments as they got older. They might not even receive these treatments, these "costs to society", but it sure looks nice for making an impressive number on paper.[/QUOTE]

You're going to pay for those wars one way or another. Actually, we all are. If it makes you feel better when the government says "no, no, all that is our DOD bucket and this small part is our war bucket" so they can magically shrink the war bucket to a measly trillion, that's fine. But you're going to pay for those wars.
 
[quote name='Clak']Oh look, now Ben Stein is whining too.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/19/sunday/commentaries/main6881440.shtml

Yeah he doesn't have kids in public school, why should he have to pay for public education! Only people like this could whine about taxes while admitting to owning multiple pieces of real estate. You poor disadvantaged man.[/QUOTE]

People think Ben Stein is smart because he played an economics professor in Ferris Bueller and he was able to answer a bunch of trivia questions on his show.

So fucking what. It takes the intelligence of a parrot to memorize trivia. The guy is just another idiotic celebrity.
 
[quote name='dohdough']


You sourced a conservative think tank. Congratulations on being a know-nothing.[/QUOTE]

are you fucking kidding me? I linked the personal income tax brackets for the last 100 years. Please explain to me what is bias about that?
 
[quote name='Clak']Oh look, now Ben Stein is whining too.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/19/sunday/commentaries/main6881440.shtml

Yeah he doesn't have kids in public school, why should he have to pay for public education! Only people like this could whine about taxes while admitting to owning multiple pieces of real estate. You poor disadvantaged man.[/QUOTE]

? Was he complaining about having to pay it period? Or was he complaining that he has to fund what they spend it on?
 
Yeah, there's no wealth envy going on in this thread. No class warfare.

Democrat Politicians sure don't know how to manipulate their voting base.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']He also missed the big point of that section of my post.[/quote]

That is a given with knoell, the only difference is when he does it on purpose and when he is just clueless.

These people are working against their own interests because they have some pipe dream that eventually they will be rewarded for all of their hard work with millions of dollars and that it will be their turn to eat out of the trough....when it's complete bullshit.

There is a small layer of executive level teatards, there is no mystery what they get out of it namely tax cuts. No idea what motivates their sub-millionaire (and face it the sub-30k a year) base. I think that they just get stroked by all the rhetoric and made to feel important in their pretty sad lives.

They also have the belief that the people below them are there because those people are lazy so fuck them, cut all social programs.

Socialism remember, is government spending you don't like.

It's just craziness.

Some of them are crazy, many are just stupid or misled although a lot of it has to be malevolence.

The thing is when talking to cons around here they always phrase their talk about tax rates etc. as some kind of hypothetical as if we haven't had decades of evidence as to their effects (and at times lack thereof):

http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/CHAS-89LPZ9?OpenDocument
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Yeah, there's no wealth envy going on in this thread. No class warfare.[/QUOTE]

NOT long ago, I had the pleasure of a lengthy meeting with one of the smartest men on the planet, Warren E. Buffett, the chief executive of Berkshire Hathaway, in his unpretentious offices in Omaha. We talked of many things that, I hope, will inspire me for years to come. But one of the main subjects was taxes. Mr. Buffett, who probably does not feel sick when he sees his MasterCard bill in his mailbox the way I do, is at least as exercised about the tax system as I am.

Put simply, the rich pay a lot of taxes as a total percentage of taxes collected, but they don’t pay a lot of taxes as a percentage of what they can afford to pay, or as a percentage of what the government needs to close the deficit gap.

Mr. Buffett compiled a data sheet of the men and women who work in his office. He had each of them make a fraction; the numerator was how much they paid in federal income tax and in payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare, and the denominator was their taxable income. The people in his office were mostly secretaries and clerks, though not all.

It turned out that Mr. Buffett, with immense income from dividends and capital gains, paid far, far less as a fraction of his income than the secretaries or the clerks or anyone else in his office. Further, in conversation it came up that Mr. Buffett doesn’t use any tax planning at all. He just pays as the Internal Revenue Code requires. “How can this be fair?” he asked of how little he pays relative to his employees. “How can this be right?”

Even though I agreed with him, I warned that whenever someone tried to raise the issue, he or she was accused of fomenting class warfare.

“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”


This conversation keeps coming back to mind because, in the last couple of weeks, I have been on one television panel after another, talking about how questionable it is that the country is enjoying what economists call full employment while we are still running a federal budget deficit of roughly $434 billion for fiscal 2006 (not counting off-budget items like Social Security) and economists forecast that it will grow to $567 billion in fiscal 2010.

When I mentioned on these panels that we should consider all options for closing this gap — including raising taxes, particularly for the wealthiest people — I was met with several arguments by people who call themselves conservatives and free marketers.

One argument was that the mere suggestion constituted class warfare. I think Mr. Buffett answered that one.

Another argument was that raising taxes actually lowers total revenue, and that only cutting taxes stimulates federal revenue. This is supposedly proved by the history of tax receipts since my friend George W. Bush became president.

In fact, the federal government collected roughly $1.004 trillion in income taxes from individuals in fiscal 2000, the last full year of President Bill Clinton’s merry rule. It fell to a low of $794 billion in 2003 after Mr. Bush’s tax cuts (but not, you understand, because of them, his supporters like to say). Only by the end of fiscal 2006 did income tax revenue surpass the $1 trillion level again.

By this time, we Republicans had added a mere $2.7 trillion to the national debt. So much for tax cuts adding to revenue. To be fair, corporate profits taxes have increased greatly, as corporate profits have increased stupendously. This may be because of the cut in corporate tax rates. Anything is possible.

The third argument that kind, well-meaning people made in response to the idea of rolling back the tax cuts was this: “Don’t raise taxes. Cut spending.”

The sad fact is that spending rises every year, no matter what people want or say they want. Every president and every member of Congress promises to cut “needless” spending. But spending has risen every year since 1940 except for a few years after World War II and a brief period after the Korean War.

The imperatives for spending are built into the system, and now, with entitlements expanding rapidly, increased spending is locked in. Medicare, Social Security, interest on the debt — all are growing like mad, and how they will ever be stopped or slowed is beyond imagining. Gross interest on Treasury debt is approaching $350 billion a year. And none of this counts major deferred maintenance for the military.

The fourth argument in response to my suggestion was that “deficits don’t matter.”

There is something to this. One would think that big deficits would be highly inflationary, according to Keynesian economics. But we have modest inflation (except in New York City, where a martini at a good bar is now $22). On the other hand, we have all that interest to pay, soon roughly $7 billion a week, a lot of it to overseas owners of our debt. This, to me, seems to matter.

Besides, if it doesn’t matter, why bother to even discuss balancing the budget? Why have taxes at all? Why not just print money the way Weimar Germany did? Why not abolish taxes and add trillions to the deficit each year? Why don’t we all just drop acid, turn on, tune in and drop out of responsibility in the fiscal area? If deficits don’t matter, why not spend as much as we want, on anything we want?

The final argument is the one I really love. People ask how I can be a conservative and still want higher taxes. It makes my head spin, and I guess it shows how old I am. But I thought that conservatives were supposed to like balanced budgets. I thought it was the conservative position to not leave heavy indebtedness to our grandchildren. I thought it was the conservative view that there should be some balance between income and outflow. When did this change?

Oh, now, now, now I recall. It changed when we figured that we could cut taxes and generate so much revenue that we would balance the budget. But isn’t that what doctors call magical thinking? Haven’t the facts proved that this theory, though charming and beguiling, was wrong?

THIS brings me back to Mr. Buffett. If, in fact, it’s all just a giveaway to the rich masquerading as a new way of stimulating the economy and balancing the budget, please, Mr. Bush, let’s rethink it. I don’t like paying $7 billion a week in interest on the debt. I don’t like the idea that Mr. Buffett pays a lot less in tax as a percentage of his income than my housekeeper does or than I do.

Can we really say that we’re showing fiscal prudence? Are we doing our best? If not, why not? I don’t want class warfare from any direction, through the tax system or any other way.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html

And guess who wrote that article? That's right, our own buddy Ben Stein just four years ago!

Guess it's different now that we have a black commie nazi queer lover muslim antichrist in office.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Some of them are crazy, many are just stupid or misled although a lot of it has to be malevolence.

The thing is when talking to cons around here they always phrase their talk about tax rates etc. as some kind of hypothetical as if we haven't had decades of evidence as to their effects (and at times lack thereof):

http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/CHAS-89LPZ9?OpenDocument[/QUOTE]

I would say more ignorant more then stupid.

In modern America, the smartest people go to where they can make the most money (Wall Street) or the most power (DC). The power thing isn't going to change. But it's a goddamn shame that the smartest people in multiple generations have been wasted in Wall Street. Brilliant people act as glorified beancounters called in by financial institutions to engineer elaborate cons on the global market. When the rich can hire an elite army of lawyers, matematicians and propagandists to carry out their schemes in disguise, you really can't expect the Joe Shmoe stocking shelves at Wall Mart to understand how badly he is being screwed.

The best you can hope for is stories like this that that tend to hit a nerve. I wish more of the rich were honest like this guy. Like a millstone around our neck we're always going to have the stubborn and willfully ignorant Bmulligan, UB, and Knoell type people, what we need to do is capture the average guy who will get it if it can be explained in layman's terms. It's times like these that I wish the media wasn't completely compromised by corporate interests.
 
I wouldn't call it wealth envy. We're just wondering why rich people never want to pay their fair share after they get rich. They almost never serve in the military, coach tee ball, or do anything that really helps the community except for make money and but all the cons in this thread want to get on their knees and make sure there's nothing else they could possibly want in this world. They have it all and you want to give them a big ole sloppy BJ called tax cuts.

Why?

Yes, some do employ other people. The thing is, you guys don't consider the illegals cutting the grass and cleaning up the shit to be real Americans so how do the rich really benefit you? Do you dream about owning the Ferrari and having villas in Italy? Do you watch House Hunters International and think someday you'll be buying that 400K house in Thailand? Get real. Don't let the rich skate by just because you might one day possibly make one tenth of what they make.
 
[quote name='dohdough']And who does it serve to have the views you do? Your boss. So maybe instead of ranting against people that have the least, maybe you should direct that energy to those that have the most cause the only one you're screwing is yourself. If you really think that personal choice is the most important variable, then you'd be moving yourself to another job where you're paid what you're "worth." The fact that the temp has a rich family is irrelevant when you can't even get more for yourself. Over 90% of the population doesn't have a rich family. But hey, if you want to keep fighting for people that give you breadcrumbs instead of giving you what you "deserve," well, I guess that's your choice, or maybe you should rethink your views.[/QUOTE]

As the middle class most people on this board provide the money in society for absurd executive salaries and social programs that have minimal oversight at best. I don't just rant at the people with the least. I rant at whoever deserves it. I don't care if they are republican or democrat, rich or poor. I've been one of the people with the least and lived in that world so you can't tell me shit. I know there are some there through misfortune out of their control (medical bills, death of the bread winner, etc.), but most are just people who never had any kind of education on finances. How many people do you know learn anything about finance in public schools? More time is spent on calculus than what a CD or a 401K is. Economics should be mandatory for graduating high school.

As for re-thinking my views, I never said capitalism is perfect, but it is the system we have. If you have any better ideas I'm listening.

BTW, what kind of work do you do?
 
The tax rate thing is what kills me the most, it's been higher in the past, a lot higher, yet raising it just a few percentage points will suddenly make all these rich folks homeless.

Then they act like they deserve sympathy, like we're picking on them. Take that article above with Buffet, one of the richest people in the world, and even he thinks it's wrong that his employees pay more taxes as a percentage than he does.

Stein is such a fucking hypocrite anyway, he thinks it's wrong that the rich are getting squeezed, yet in that article above he agrees with Buffet that it's wrong his employees pay more as a percentage.
 
[quote name='Clak']The tax rate thing is what kills me the most, it's been higher in the past, a lot higher, yet raising it just a few percentage points will suddenly make all these rich folks homeless.
[/QUOTE]

Pretty much this. We should go back to the 90% marginal tax rate bracket for the lulz, just to see these morons shit their pants.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I wouldn't call it wealth envy. We're just wondering why rich people never want to pay their fair share after they get rich.[/QUOTE]

We have far different definitions of "fair".

1% of the population paying 40% of taxes (while having only 28% of the wealth) doesn't fit any definition of "fair" that I'm familiar with.

People like you want the government to treat everyone equally. Except when you don't.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']We have far different definitions of "fair".

1% of the population paying 40% of taxes (while having only 28% of the wealth) doesn't fit any definition of "fair" that I'm familiar with.

People like you want the government to treat everyone equally. Except when you don't.[/QUOTE]

Oh hay, you know what else doesn't fit any definition of "fair" that we are familiar with.

In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2007, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 34.6% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 50.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth (total net worth minus the value of one's home), the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 42.7%.

(...)

As you read through these numbers, please keep in mind that they are usually two or three years out of date because it takes time for one set of experts to collect the basic information and make sure it is accurate, and then still more time for another set of experts to analyze it and write their reports. It's also the case that the infamous housing bubble of the first eight years of the 21st century inflated some of the wealth numbers.

So far there are only tentative projections -- based on the price of housing and stock in July 2009 -- on the effects of the Great Recession on the wealth distribution. They suggest that average Americans have been hit much harder than wealthy Americans. Edward Wolff, the economist we draw upon the most in this document, concludes that there has been an "astounding" 36.1% drop in the wealth (marketable assets) of the median household since the peak of the housing bubble in 2007. By contrast, the wealth of the top 1% of households dropped by far less: just 11.1%. So as of April 2010, it looks like the wealth distribution is even more unequal than it was in 2007.

figure1.gif


http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

Or again

[quote name='Sporadic']Better question. Why do you expect the have-nots should while the haves shouldn't?[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Oh hay, you know what else doesn't fit any definition of "fair" that we are familiar with.


figure1.gif
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html[/QUOTE]

Okay, so if I go to work and find a job that pays $100/hour, yet you only manage to land a job that pays $10/hour, somehow that's unfair. Without looking at any other circumstances around that, you find that unfair.

Meanwhile, the largest, most powerful force in the world forcing me - yes, by gunpoint (if you want to challenge this claim, then please do, but please provide some kind of evidence that our government will not use firearms, if necessary, to collect the money that it feels they "deserve") to give them a higher percentage of my money than you is "fair" in your book?
 
[quote name='Sporadic']
Better question. Why do you expect the have-nots should while the haves shouldn't?
[/QUOTE]

Who's *forcing* the "have-nots" to give up anything?

Because it's clear in this situation who is forcing the "haves" to give up what they own.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Okay, so if I go to work and find a job that pays $100/hour, yet you only manage to land a job that pays $10/hour, somehow that's unfair. Without looking at any other circumstances around that, you find that unfair.[/QUOTE]

Depends on what you mean by unfair.

I think you are thinking that I mean that if you have a $100/hour job, that means I deserve a $100/hour job also (which I don't)

[quote name='UncleBob']Meanwhile, the largest, most powerful force in the world forcing me - yes, by gunpoint (if you want to challenge this claim, then please do, but please provide some kind of evidence that our government will not use firearms, if necessary, to collect the money that it feels they "deserve") to give them a higher percentage of my money than you is "fair" in your book?[/QUOTE]

I make more therefore the amount expected from me is more than most. Boo hoo life is so unfair. :cry:

[quote name='UncleBob']Who's *forcing* the "have-nots" to give up anything?

Because it's clear in this situation who is forcing the "haves" to give up what they own.[/QUOTE]

You still don't get it.

You expect the people who don't have to bootstrap their way up with no assistance, to have no safety net at all, to contribute at the same level as others while at the same time, the top 5% which holds so much wealth compared to the rest of us shouldn't.

That it is somehow fair to tell the people with so little to cut back even more while the people living so lavishly shouldn't be expect to give up their luxuries.
That it is somehow fair to say that taxes, which are the result of living in a society that has given them so much, are a punishment when the level of taxation is still low compared to any other time in our history and they hold so much of the wealth in this country.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']I make more therefore the amount expected from me is more than most. Boo hoo life is so unfair. :cry:[/quote]

I don't think the issue is necessarily that the rich is being forced to pay "more". It's the fact that they're being forced to pay a higher percentage. How is that fair?

You expect the people who don't have to bootstrap their way up with no assistance, to have no safety net at all, to contribute at the same level as others while at the same time, the top 5% which holds so much wealth compared to the rest of us shouldn't.

Speaking of not getting it - I never said anything of the like.

That it is somehow fair to tell the people with so little to cut back even more while the people living so lavishly shouldn't be expect to give up their luxuries.

No, but it's fair to tell someone to give up something they can't afford. Crazy idea, I know.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I don't think the issue is necessarily that the rich is being forced to pay "more". It's the fact that they're being forced to pay a higher percentage. How is that fair?[/QUOTE]

Why is it unfair?
 
[quote name='SpazX']Why is it unfair?[/QUOTE]

Because the premise of our government is that they treat everyone equally. Could you imagine if any other official government policy was written in such a way that it took into account the amount of money you made?

For example, a voting system where a rich man's ballot was given more importance over a poor man's ballot?

Here's an easy way to tell if something is unfair - turn it around.

If suddenly the poor was paying a higher percentage of income tax than the rich, you can easily see how that would be unfair.

If we had a completely flat rate of, say, 20% (just throwing a number out there) that the rich and the poor both paid, then there's no way to flip that percentage around so that it is unfair.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Why is it unfair?[/QUOTE]

If we suddenly cared about fairness then what would that make us?

Straight up commies?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Because the premise of our government is that they treat everyone equally. Could you imagine if any other official government policy was written in such a way that it took into account the amount of money you made?

For example, a voting system where a rich man's ballot was given more importance over a poor man's ballot?

Here's an easy way to tell if something is unfair - turn it around.

If suddenly the poor was paying a higher percentage of income tax than the rich, you can easily see how that would be unfair.

If we had a completely flat rate of, say, 20% (just throwing a number out there) that the rich and the poor both paid, then there's no way to flip that percentage around so that it is unfair.[/QUOTE]

Just quoting this because I have no idea how you reached this point and I don't want you to delete or edit it in the future.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Because the premise of our government is that they treat everyone equally. Could you imagine if any other official government policy was written in such a way that it took into account the amount of money you made?

For example, a voting system where a rich man's ballot was given more importance over a poor man's ballot?

Here's an easy way to tell if something is unfair - turn it around.

If suddenly the poor was paying a higher percentage of income tax than the rich, you can easily see how that would be unfair.

If we had a completely flat rate of, say, 20% (just throwing a number out there) that the rich and the poor both paid, then there's no way to flip that percentage around so that it is unfair.[/QUOTE]

So wouldn't it be more fair then to not use a percentage, but a flat amount? Percentages in themselves take into account how much money you make - you pay more as you make more money. It's just in the math.
 
[quote name='SpazX']So wouldn't it be more fair then to not use a percentage, but a flat amount? Percentages in themselves take into account how much money you make - you pay more as you make more money. It's just in the math.[/QUOTE]

Using a percentage works though. Regardless of your age, race, gender, sexuality, income, hairstyle, piercings, the car you drive or bike you ride - whatever, you pay an X% income tax.

It's not equal to say "Well, let's take this one group of people and make them pay a higher percentage."

The only reason they can get by with it is because A.) The evil rich can afford it and B.) They're so outnumbered by ignorant people who are so willing to let the system harm others in what they believe to be their own favor.

Interesting factoid about the income tax - when it was originally purposed (the version we have now, after they had to amend the Constitution because previous such taxes were deemed unconstitutional), it was only supposed to effect the richest of the rich. Poor people were okay with it, since it wouldn't hurt them, only the evil rich folks. Weird how that still works today.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Using a percentage works though. Regardless of your age, race, gender, sexuality, income, hairstyle, piercings, the car you drive or bike you ride - whatever, you pay an X% income tax.

It's not equal to say "Well, let's take this one group of people and make them pay a higher percentage."

The only reason they can get by with it is because A.) The evil rich can afford it and B.) They're so outnumbered by ignorant people who are so willing to let the system harm others in what they believe to be their own favor.

Interesting factoid about the income tax - when it was originally purposed (the version we have now, after they had to amend the Constitution because previous such taxes were deemed unconstitutional), it was only supposed to effect the richest of the rich. Poor people were okay with it, since it wouldn't hurt them, only the evil rich folks. Weird how that still works today.[/QUOTE]

But you didn't answer the question. Percentages necessarily discriminate against people who make more money - you will pay more in income taxes if you make more money. Why is it not unfair then? Shouldn't everyone pay X amount in actual dollars? Would that not be more fair?
 
Funny Bob says that bit about voting ballots, since at one point in US history, only the rich land owners were even allowed to vote.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']As the middle class most people on this board provide the money in society for absurd executive salaries and social programs that have minimal oversight at best. I don't just rant at the people with the least. I rant at whoever deserves it. I don't care if they are republican or democrat, rich or poor. I've been one of the people with the least and lived in that world so you can't tell me shit. I know there are some there through misfortune out of their control (medical bills, death of the bread winner, etc.), but most are just people who never had any kind of education on finances. How many people do you know learn anything about finance in public schools? More time is spent on calculus than what a CD or a 401K is. Economics should be mandatory for graduating high school.[/quote]
More time is spent on calculus than investment tools? How many schools even teach calculus? And why do you think those things aren't taught? It's because education is always one of the first things to have it's funding cut because people like you just want everyone to pull up some imaginary bootstraps and be rational actors all after a lifetime of poorly funded educational programs, social safety nets, with political and economical disenfranchisement that has lasted for generations. You simply cannot pull up some bootstraps if you don't have any boots.

As for re-thinking my views, I never said capitalism is perfect, but it is the system we have. If you have any better ideas I'm listening.
So knowing that the system is fucked and only serves the elite, you still think that people should just accept it and not try to change it? And haven't I already enumerated some ideas already?

BTW, what kind of work do you do?
It doesn't matter what I do, because it's not what defines me. I could be rich, poor, in the middle, or have been all three, but my views are still the same. I know people with way more money than me with the same views and people with the opposite views. So please tell me what my occupation has anything to do with this.
 
[quote name='Clak']Funny Bob says that bit about voting ballots, since at one point in US history, only the rich land owners were even allowed to vote.[/QUOTE]
Rich land owning white men.;)
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Here's an easy way to tell if something is unfair - turn it around.[/QUOTE]

Easily the stupidest thing said in this thread thus far.
 
[quote name='camoor']Easily the stupidest thing said in this thread thus far.[/QUOTE]

Remember, fair is only for rich people.

For poor people their problems are due to God or the Market (I don't think cons make the distinction).
 
[quote name='dohdough']It doesn't matter what I do, because it's not what defines me. I could be rich, poor, in the middle, or have been all three, but my views are still the same. I know people with way more money than me with the same views and people with the opposite views. So please tell me what my occupation has anything to do with this.[/QUOTE]

Turn about is fair play. Since you want to comment on information I volunteered about my job I was hoping you would do the same. If not I assume it is because you don't have a job or your views are based on things you haven't actually experienced.
 
[quote name='Clak']Well yeah, that goes without saying.[/QUOTE]
Maybe for us, but I wouldn't put it past our fellow CAG'ers to conveniently forget that fact. :D
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']Turn about is fair play. Since you want to comment on information I volunteered about my job I was hoping you would do the same. If not I assume it is because you don't have a job or your views are based on things you haven't actually experienced.[/QUOTE]
I don't care what you think I do because I'm obviously pro-labor. I'm going to make personal jabs at you because you thought you were a special snowflake because of all that nice stuff you have due to "personal responsibility." Well guess what, I own my car, have a 401k, see people treated like crap, and been treated like crap at work as well. Hell, most of my friends have nicer cars, bigger homes, make more money, and have more money saved up than the both of us combined that still don't have similar views to you about "personal responsibility." I don't need my personal life disseminated by someone like you. I know what my privileges are. It'd do you some good if you could figure that out too.

How about you address my arguments instead of trying to score points on my personal life.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']Turn about is fair play. Since you want to comment on information I volunteered about my job I was hoping you would do the same. If not I assume it is because you don't have a job or your views are based on things you haven't actually experienced.[/QUOTE]

I think some people took umbrage that you turned an anecdote about someone asking to borrow money from you into a rant about god knows what.
 
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Hmm, I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I just had to comment--to the man with the $250k family income, crying about going to the poorhouse:

fuck YOU

There are REAL poor people on this planet. And many people considered "middle class" throughout the world don't hire a gardener, house cleaner, and full time babysitter. Hell, most people in this country who are middle class don't have any of those extra hired hands either!
 
bread's done
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