Suda 51: Wii is only for non-gamers, games don't sell, only nintendo titles do well

PyroGamer

PyroGamer

Banned
http://kotaku.com/345855/third-party-wii-games-arent-selling

Whilst the sales weren't as high as I hoped, other titles for Wii aren't selling so well either. Only Nintendo titles are doing well. This isn't just because of the current situation in Japan, as this is happening outside Japan... Actually I was very surprised about the reality about Wii, because before I was making this game, I wasn't expecting that Wii would be a console targeted only for non-gamers. I expected more games for hardcore gamers. The reality is different to what I expected.
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Sorry if this has already been posted.

I have to agree completely with Suda, and it's a sorry situation. So many great titles on the Wii that sell like shit, all the while shovelware floods in, meaning you have to wade through leagues of shit just to look through the release calendar (one glimpse at the Wii list on any of the CAGforeplay threads makes this all too clear). If Nintendo bothered to use ANY quality control, there wouldn't be so much shovelware to distract customers from the good third party titles.

Damn you people! I want more No More Heroes, and more Zack and Wiki's and the like!

The Wii is the perfect platform for developing games with less production costs, so there's less risk, and selling them cheaper, so more people buy (there's certainly high enough market saturation to sell cheap). Unfortunately, this is also very close to the definition of shovelware.
 
[quote name='Ice2Dragon']Well its true.

Hopefully house of the dead 2/3 will bring it out of non selling titles unless nintendo slump[/QUOTE]
House of the Dead is also essentially shovelware. Just because you get a decent title to port with virtually no development effort, doesn't make it not shovelware.

I guess I wouldn't be so pissed with all the shovelware like House of the Dead if they weren't charging you $50 for their shit (not saying House of the Dead is shit, just that it's a fucking port, not an original game with effort and artistry put into it, like No More Heroes).
 
I'll put this out there (already been a long discussion on GAF, so I'm worn out on the topic :D), but one of the important parts of his statement there is that no one else is really doing anything about it.

I expected more games for hardcore gamers.
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Nintendo doesn't make those kinds of games, so it should be easy for someone else to step up, but they aren't.

Now, granted, the situation outside of Japan is a lot less bleak (even Nintendo games like Strikers are bombing there), but it's still not good. And coincidentally, this ties in pretty closely to Lan_Zero's thread below.
 
I dont think its quite the wiis fault.

Sudas stuff is so niche.

LTD sales on K7 combined on ps2 and gamecube are around 39k.

NMH is around 14k in japan so far.
 
In my opinion there are a few problems going on with the market.

1. There should be some form of quality control. Too many 3rd party developers are putting out crappy games banking on good sales simply because there are so many consoles out there.

2. Casual gamers spend less time gaming and therefore buy less games. I know a lot of Wii owners who only have one or two games.

3. Casual gamers don't read gaming magazines or websites. To reach them and market a game is going to require more mainstream media.

4. Hardcore gamers who have a Wii often have another console also. If you are going to make a Wii game that targets them you are going to have to play to the strengths of the Wii. Games like Wii Sports and light gun games do this well. You simply can't play games like that on other systems.

Time has shown that most of the time if you make a truly great game it will sell. It may take a while and word of mouth but it should happen eventually. The question is: how many good 3rd party games have been made for the Wii? Not very many.
 
I really think NMH will catch on in America, with all that blood and gore someone is bound to buy it then start a chain. Hell, I am telling all my friends about how awesome NMH is and telling them they should buy it.

Then again the problem with the Wii is not just bad games (actually this is happening to every system nowadays :bomb:) but fucking dumbasses too stupid to not buy the crap and the game developers are realizing this and not giving a fuck about us because there is not enough money for them. I mean Okami, Zack and Wiki, Oden Sphere games like that are brilliant but no one gives a fuck except the real gamers who are not the masses and it is sad.

As for Nintendo's games, well besides the fact that most of them are awesome, people can easily reconize the company of the console they bought and I guess make a connection.
 
1. Considering NMH has been released only in Japan so far, and Suda himself has said he developed the game to appeal more to the Western market, doesn't it seem premature for him to say he's upset with its sales?

2. Considering NMH is his best-selling game in Japan so far, doesn't it seem premature for him to say he's upset with its sales?

--R.J.
 
[quote name='rjung']1. Considering NMH has been released only in Japan so far, and Suda himself has said he developed the game to appeal more to the Western market, doesn't it seem premature for him to say he's upset with its sales?

2. Considering NMH is his best-selling game in Japan so far, doesn't it seem premature for him to say he's upset with its sales?

--R.J.[/QUOTE]

1 is a valid point, but even in Japan, game sales trends are similar to the US: peak early, and drop quite quickly. Very few games really have legs where they continue to sell months after release (e.g., Zelda: TP, Halo 3...and ?). I don't see NHM breaking 25K for quite some time. So I can see why he's upset, as sales won't suddenly take off barring something unforeseen.

The Wii's a fascinating phenomenon, where games are, with few exceptions, just not selling on the system - despite the fact that it's the #1 system this gen, and its sales don't appear to be slowing.
 
[quote name='botticus']I'll put this out there (already been a long discussion on GAF, so I'm worn out on the topic :D), but one of the important parts of his statement there is that no one else is really doing anything about it.

Nintendo doesn't make those kinds of games, so it should be easy for someone else to step up, but they aren't.
.[/quote]

You would think that smaller developers/publishers that did well on the PS2, would transition easily to the Wii. Atlus, Nippon Ichi, stuff like that. Why is the new Disgaea game on the ps3? It'll use 5% of the ps3's power and potential. It would be perfect for the Wii.
 
[quote name='botticus']Nintendo doesn't make those kinds of games, so it should be easy for someone else to step up, but they aren't.[/QUOTE]
Fire Emblem?

P.S. Suda's right.
 
Are third party games doing well at all in Japan? It seems like the best selling games there are from Nintendo. America is really different, the best selling games are all third party (but are also not on the Wii).

I think No More Heroes will sell relatively well in the U.S, especially since Smash Bros. has been pushed back and there really isn't anything else being released on the Wii worth getting.
 
[quote name='pete5883']Fire Emblem?
[/quote]In general.

[quote name='yukine']Are third party games doing well at all in Japan? It seems like the best selling games there are from Nintendo. America is really different, the best selling games are all third party (but are also not on the Wii). [/quote]Dragon Quest Swords is the highest selling third-party game in Japan at around 500k. I believe Mingol5 and one of the Gundam games on PS3 are around 400k. So generally, no, they're not selling well. But obviously the PS3 has install base issues.

PS3: http://www.japan-gamecharts.com/ps3.php
Wii: http://www.japan-gamecharts.com/wii.php

Above 100k:

:wii: Dragon Quest Swords - 486,222
:ps3: Minna no Golf 5 - 372,895
:ps3: Dynasty Warriors 6 - 332,168
:ps3: Gundam Musou - 306,114
:wii: Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles - 212,417
:ps3: Winning Eleven: PES 2008 - 210,864
:wii: DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi 2 - 157,784
:ps3: Ridge Racer 7 - 149,108
:ps3: Mobile Suit Gundam: Crossfire - 145,833
:ps3: Bladestorm - 111,666
:360: Dead or Alive 4 - 108,618
:wii: Resident Evil 4 - 105,441
:wii: Ennichi no Tatsujin - 104,524
 
[quote name='Suda 51 in 2006'] IGN: Why did you choose the Wii for Heroes?

Suda: People will probably buy the Wii and play family games like Wii Sports, so we decided to develop Heroes for the Wii because gamers might get tired of the family games eventually. Also, people who are going to buy the Wii are interested in trying something different, something that's an extraordinary action game.[/quote]
It does have a much higher attach than his previous games. He needs context.

In regards to 3rd parties in Japan, Wii outperformed PS3/360 in 2007, despite attach rate, due to overwhelming marketshare. Add in low dev costs as a bonus.

Given how bad Killer 7 bombed on the combined PS2/GC userbase, theres no reason to believe his game wouldve done better in HD, rather than still bombing, possibly worse, and costing exponentially more money.
 
I agree with most of what has been said. There is not a conspiracy among Wii owners to boycott 3rd party games and if there is, I missed the meeting. Crappy games generate crappy sales, with a few exceptions. The quality of game usually can predict its sales, with more exceptions than the former. The only Suda game I have played is Killer 7 and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience...but I wouldn't pay 50 dollars for it retail...and its not really on Nintendo's level. When third parties learn to make games on Nintendo's level, the sales will be there. Thats the problem, the quality, not the "casual" gamers.
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']Because none of you buy 3rd party games.[/quote]

Bite me butthole. I buy me some 3rd party games! :D I bought Zack and Wiki, Both Trauma Center games, Nights and REmake 4. I plan on and will get No More Heroes. I almost don't want to now, but I don't want to prove him right. That and I loved Killer7. NMH looks as good, if not better. I am only one broke man, I can't buy them all. I wish I could.
 
I can say that i've passed on buying ALOT of games because of price not quality.

Geometry Wars Galaxies - $40
Godfather - $50
Cooking Mama - $50
Kororinpa - $40
Table Tennis - $40
Tom Raider anniversary - $40
etc,etc,etc...

IMO all of those should've been released for no more than $30.

I don't know how much "No more Heroes" is gonna be but if it's $50 it'll flop.
 
I personally think No More Heroes will bomb here as well. The interwebs and magazines seem to hype it up, but we've seen that before with other games that then bomb. You have a core group of people that will buy it (the ones who have been following it for a while), then you have a few that will buy it based on advertisements and word of mouth.

Finally you'll have the other millions of Wii owners who go "No More Heroes? You mean they cancelled the TV show? NO WAYZ".

Sad, but true.
 
I've been saying this for ages, a few months after launch in fact. I've seen the Wii mentioned on nearly every general-America broadcasts (Opera, Good Morning America, all major news networks, etc.).

The Wii's library just doesn't tend to the gamer and as much as it's tending to grandmas. So while the Wii is leaps and bounds more successful than than the GC and N64 ever were- for us gamers, it's the same issue: we'll get a few good Nintendo games here and there and that's it.

It seems like developers are starting to realize this as well so that means even less games for us gamers.:whistle2:(

Talk about a double edged sword...

[quote name='mtxbass1']
Finally you'll have the other millions of Wii owners who go "No More Heroes? You mean they cancelled the TV show? NO WAYZ".

Sad, but true.[/QUOTE]

:lol: Well said...
 
It's another Zack & Wiki in my opinion unless Ubisoft does some marketing for the game. However I think the overall range of good games is easily better on the Wii than it was on the 64 and Gamecube.

My issue is that most gamers just aren't willing to buy a game they aren't familiar enough with to take a plunge with regardless of how good the reviews may be.

The Wii needs demos.
 
[quote name='mtxbass1']I personally think No More Heroes will bomb here as well. The interwebs and magazines seem to hype it up, but we've seen that before with other games that then bomb. You have a core group of people that will buy it (the ones who have been following it for a while), then you have a few that will buy it based on advertisements and word of mouth.

Finally you'll have the other millions of Wii owners who go "No More Heroes? You mean they cancelled the TV show? NO WAYZ".

Sad, but true.[/QUOTE]

Or, it'll bomb because it's a third-party Wii game.
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']I think it'll do about 100,000 copies lifetime in the US.[/QUOTE]

I give it less than that... maybe like 70K. It's hardly ever mentioned on mags/shows/articles and I doubt they'll advertise it.
 
[quote name='Vinny']I give it less than that... maybe like 70K. It's hardly ever mentioned on mags/shows/articles and I doubt they'll advertise it.[/quote]

Well No More Heroes tracked better in Japan than Zack & Wiki (which has sold 130,000 copies worldwide) - and I'm sure that more people in the States are willing to buy Heroes than Zack & Wiki (no "it's too kiddy!" excuses for No More Heroes here).

Hence I expect that No More Heroes will sell better than Zack & Wiki and I was just underestimating the game's sales to be around 100,000. However you could totally be right and the game could outright bomb since this after Christmas and everyone's wallet is recovering.
 
The 3rd party problem on the Wii is a direct result of Nintendo's lax standards for releasing games. With so many shovelware games at $20-30, what casual gamer will take a chance on a $50 title? If it's Mario (or Nintendo), they can justify taking a $50 gamble on a game. If it's a no-name game by a 3rd party, how do they know it's "worth" $50? Without advertising (or buzz) the casual gamer will generally opt for 2 games over 1 because they see that as having more variety and doubling their chances that they'll like at least one of the games they bought.
 
[quote name='soonersfan60']The 3rd party problem on the Wii is a direct result of Nintendo's lax standards for releasing games. With so many shovelware games at $20-30, what casual gamer will take a chance on a $50 title? If it's Mario (or Nintendo), they can justify taking a $50 gamble on a game. If it's a no-name game by a 3rd party, how do they know it's "worth" $50? Without advertising (or buzz) the casual gamer will generally opt for 2 games over 1 because they see that as having more variety and doubling their chances that they'll like at least one of the games they bought.[/QUOTE]

I don't buy the argument. There's some truth to it indeed, but overall, given the number of folks who own Wiis, that it's amazing to me that its version of Madden 08 sold worse than the 360, PS2, and even PS3 versions of the game. OTOH, Guitar Hero III sold quite well.

So I think Nintendo should focus group the shit out of Wii owners to find out why they own a Wii - why is it that they'll buy GHIII but not Madden? Both are highly popular niche titles.
 
[quote name='Delnatha']
4. Hardcore gamers who have a Wii often have another console also. If you are going to make a Wii game that targets them you are going to have to play to the strengths of the Wii. Games like Wii Sports and light gun games do this well. You simply can't play games like that on other systems.
[/QUOTE]

I can't agree with that. I think a part of the problem is that what they're calling "hardcore gamers" don't want to play Wii sports etc.

What they need to do is make more games in traditional genres that make great use of the motion controls.

Nintendo did that with Mario and Zelda and both sold great. Retro did it with Metroid, but unfortunately that franchise just doesn't move huge numbers for whatever reason--but it still sold fairly well.

If third parties would put some effort into making "hardcore" (hate the word) games that make good use of motion controls, rather than shovelware the'd probably see more sells.

No More Heroes may not sell well, but as pointed out by another member, neither did Killer 7. Suda 51 makes niche games that are too odd for the main stream.

But who knows, maybe NMH will sell well in the US. Time will tell. Though if they want it to sell, where is the marketing? I've not seen any ads on TV, in magazines etc. yet that I can recall.


As for blaming it on consumers for not buying third party games, that's just silly. They have to put out QUALITY third party games in genres people want to play for them to sell well. Otherwise, why should gamers care? There are two other systems with mainstream third party games for consumers to enjoy--that's the benefit of competion in the market.

Sucks for people that only have a Wii I guess, but it's hard to be a serious gamer and not own at least two consoles anymore as no one console can satisfy the needs of anyone who games a lot these days.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I can't agree with that. I think a part of the problem is that what they're calling "hardcore gamers" don't want to play Wii sports etc.

What they need to do is make more games in traditional genres that make great use of the motion controls.

Nintendo did that with Mario and Zelda and both sold great. Retro did it with Metroid, but unfortunately that franchise just doesn't move huge numbers for whatever reason--but it still sold fairly well.

If third parties would put some effort into making "hardcore" (hate the word) games that make good use of motion controls, rather than shovelware the'd probably see more sells.

No More Heroes may not sell well, but as pointed out by another member, neither did Killer 7. Suda 51 makes niche games that are too odd for the main stream.

But who knows, maybe NMH will sell well in the US. Time will tell. Though if they want it to sell, where is the marketing? I've not seen any ads on TV, in magazines etc. yet that I can recall.[/quote]

Japan isn't buying anything BUT Nintendo games and that is his only experience with the sales for NMH. It's like Japan has decided they hate videogames.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']
So I think Nintendo should focus group the shit out of Wii owners to find out why they own a Wii - why is it that they'll buy GHIII but not Madden? Both are highly popular niche titles.[/QUOTE]

That actually makes sense to me. If you have the casuals and non-gamers buying the system to play stuff that anyone can pick up and play like Wii Sports GHIII certainly fits that bill more than a football sim.

Plus, anecdotally, most of the people I know that are big fans of sports games like Madden care a great deal about graphics. Makes since as sports sims do benefit from the most realistic graphics possible as they are trying to simulate the sport I guess.

So I could see it being a combination of the casual owners just wanting easy to pick up and learn to play games, and the core sports gamer market being mostly on the HD consoles.
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']Japan isn't buying anything BUT Nintendo games and that is his only experience with the sales for NMH. It's like Japan has decided they hate videogames.[/QUOTE]

That is true. But what developers need to realize is that the rest of the world is still buying them, and that's a lot bigger market than one small Island.

In other words, quit worry so much about their homeland and their natives shitty gaming tastes and just focus more marketing efforts abroad for these types of games.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']That is true. But what developers need to realize is that the rest of the world is still buying them, and that's a lot bigger market than one small Island.[/quote]
I just think he was heartbroken.

In other words, quit worry so much about their homeland and their natives shitty gaming tastes and just focus more marketing efforts abroad for these types of games.
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He's from the time when videogames used to sell in Japan. Videogames just do not sell in Japan anymore. Only the fest established few do.
 
(Watches thread through palantir in tower chamber while bats, ravens, and magically-animated gargoyles fly outside window.)
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']No More Heroes is worth $50 though.[/quote]

How do you know this? Killer 7 wasn't worth $10 to me, though it certainly looked good and seemed like it would be something I would appreciate. But it had too many things that turned me off pretty much immediately.

No More Heroes looks great. Does it play well? Is it worth it? I can want it to be, but if wishes were horses...

[quote name='soonersfan60']The 3rd party problem on the Wii is a direct result of Nintendo's lax standards for releasing games. With so many shovelware games at $20-30, what casual gamer will take a chance on a $50 title?[/quote]

Actually, I'm not convinced that's the problem with shovelware.

More of a concern is that the shovelware is absolute crap. How many crap games will people buy before they stop impulse buying games? If there's a saturation of crap, how many times will people take a chance before they give up and go with the sure thing?

Also something I've been thinking about lately: is the general public more aware of the nature of videogame pricing? Have video game price drops accelerated recently?

I think so. I can't remember the last time I saw something like Stuntman Ignition, a game that didn't get roundly panned, go from $60 to $15 in a few months.

It's long been a CAG behavior to wait for games to drop. Maybe more of the general public is starting to adopt that attitude. It would probably hurt the Wii the most, as it is the 'casual' console.

Finally, another thing worth mentioning: Nintendo brand games tend to drop in price very slowly or sometimes not at all. Their Player's Choice was the slowest and most expensive of all the last gen consoles. Perhaps first party titles sell better because people think it either won't drop ever, or won't drop for a very long time. There's little incentive to 'wait out' a first party game.
 
[quote name='jollydwarf']How do you know this?

Oh, they just...know. And once they know, that is their reality.[/quote]
3 different review publications have given the game a 90 or over. Famitsu gave it a 9, 8, 8, 9.
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']3 different review publications have given the game a 90 or over. Famitsu gave it a 9, 8, 8, 9.[/QUOTE]
Famitsu's reviews shouldn't mean much to anyone. Their reviews are just fan service or sold to game developers.

For me, I don't even own a Wii and I plan on buying NMH on launch day. It looks like the kind of game I'd love to play and don't mind supporting.
 
Myke and Bland, I think we are on the same page more or less. I lay much of the blame at the feet of the 3rd parties, though, for not making their good games stand out from the garbage. (That goes back to Nintendo titles being a safe bet.) If you want or expect people to pay $50 for your title when it comes out and not wait for a price drop or choose something cheaper, then you have to advertise the game and build buzz so people feel its worth their money... then deliver on that experience expectation! If you don't, they won't trust you the next time you want full price for a game.
 
[quote name='mtxbass1']
Finally you'll have the other millions of Wii owners who go "No More Heroes? You mean they cancelled the TV show? NO WAYZ".[/quote]When the title change from "Heroes" to "No More Heroes" was first announced, I thought the game was cancelled.
 
I don't know if I live in a really weird area or something, and I know this doesn't reflect the entire market at all -

But I work for GameStop - and our 'shovelware' sells like hotcakes. We can't keep any of it in stock. Game Party, Carnival Games, our exclusive titles (I'm sure you've seen them if you've been in a GS lately)...we can't keep any of this stuff in stock, and we have so many copies, it's ludicrous. To my utter dismay, I've never had a 'shovelware' game traded in while I was working to date -- But we've got a mint used copy of Zack and Wiki that's just been sitting there for weeks.

It seems that (at least for whatever demographic my town is in) the third parties are seriously cashing in on these 'shovelware' titles. At least in this town of 25,000 in the midwest, the Wii software is not doing poorly at all, and at the costs that these games were made, I'm sure it's a lucrative trend that won't be ending anytime soon.

It's unfortunate, but true. If the games don't need to sell well for the third parties to make money, then why would they bother pumping out quality? Wii is the perfect medium for that. You've got the highest installed base, and whining kids will undoubtedly get their parents to buy SOMETHING new once they've conquered their latest pile of garbage game. I'd go as far to say that 90% of the Wiis that I've personally sold were to parents of kids under the age of 12.

Uninformed parents will buy ANYTHING to shut their kids the fuck up. The only question I have is this: What twisted this younger generation's sense of 'fun' so much that they actually are convinced that they're enjoying their Game Party experience?
 
[quote name='The Crotch']First off: CK did it, not me.

Second: How well did FE sell?[/QUOTE]
Not very well. 380k according to VGChartz.

Carnival Games did better.
 
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