Super Smash Bros. Brawl Site! Discussions Inside. Release Date: December 3, 2007

[quote name='2Fast']*head explodes*[/QUOTE]
heh, sorry, I just like rambling. Just pay no attention to it, mostly babble anyway.

Good to hear the multi-controller compatibility. I was thinking movement could be controlled by moving the wiimote around. Though that may be tiring, sure beats actually doing links up-b spin attack in real life and sustaining multiple injuries.

[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']I'll be a giddy little girl if they take L-canceling and wavedashing out.[/QUOTE]

I'll be the opposite of that if that happens... though I dunno what that'd be. There are actual pros who don't use those. Well, at least wavedash. But with l-canceling in both 64 and melee, i doubt it'll be taken out.
 
Its an unnecessary level of complexity to be able to cut the lag of all moves in half, as opposed to just having it done automatically, or not having it at all.

This is different from having a particular MOVE out of a set being canceled into something else, like in Soul Calibur for instance.
 
[quote name='Strell']
Wiimote + Nunchuk: D pad on the 'mote becomes the buttons. So down = B attacks, right = A attacks. Up/Left = used for jumping. B trigger = shield. Nunchuk has two buttons that can replace L and Z. So theoretically you have replicated full button placement from the GC controller. Again, this leaves out motion control, but if they implement it well, could be very useful. This is marginally better than the above.
[/QUOTE]
I'd think they'd map the attacks to A&B on the wii-mote, the sheild and grabs on the nunchuck buttons, and probably have the d-pad also activate the shield. Just my take on it, though.
 
I figured that Brawl would support the Wiimote+nunchuck, Gamecube, and classic controller, but the Wiimote sideways was a surprise to me.
Hopefully the game will support 8 players using 4 wiimote/classic controllers and 4 Gamecube controllers.
 
[quote name='dallow']I wish you had never responded to my question.[/quote]

And I wish you were never born.
But we can't always get what we want though.


65z87qa.jpg

I keed. I keed.

 
[quote name='CosmosTheMouse']And I wish you were never born.
But we can't always get what we want though.


65z87qa.jpg

I keed. I keed.

[/QUOTE]

I wish I was a lumberjack!
 
I'm not saying that L-Canceling isnt useful. I'm saying its EXCESSIVE.

A game without L-Canceling would be even for all players with regard to recovery lag. Now its unfair to everyone who doesnt when they face someone who does.

If one button to reduce lag by half isnt excessive, lets have an optional TWO button combination to reduce lag to 1/4. Or 2 buttons and a direction to reduce it by 1/8.

Do you see why I say its excessive and unnecessary?
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']I'm not saying that L-Canceling isnt useful. I'm saying its EXCESSIVE.

A game without L-Canceling would be even for all players with regard to recovery lag. Now its unfair to everyone who doesnt when they face someone who does.

If one button to reduce lag by half isnt excessive, lets have an optional TWO button combination to reduce lag to 1/4. Or 2 buttons and a direction to reduce it by 1/8.

Do you see why I say its excessive and unnecessary?[/quote]It's like the snakers in Mario Kart DS. The problem is you have to do it or you are going to lose. Same situation here, it is not an option to not L cancel, you have to do it to survive. My friends never L-Canceled but then again they are not the uber smash bros players and neither did I because I never played against one who did.
 
[quote name='Sir_Fragalot']It's like the snakers in Mario Kart DS. The problem is you have to do it or you are going to lose. Same situation here, it is not an option to not L cancel, you have to do it to survive. My friends never L-Canceled but then again they are not the uber smash bros players and neither did I because I never played against one who did.[/QUOTE]
But this is just like the same principles in other fighting games, or any game with a competitive scene. A few good examples would be Roman Cancelling in Guilty Gear. Or EV points in pokemon. Or even guard break cancelling in dbz budokai 2. Taking out l-canceling would seriously just "dumb" down the game. Is it really right to take out these aspects of the game and make all the players who spent considerable time practicing them give it up like that?

That's absurd. If the person can utilize more skills effectively, he definitely should be rewarded with a victory. Otherwise, it's just a party game and the competitive scene will be destroyed. It'd be among the ranks of Mario Kart Double Dash.

If you have a problem with this, that's what handicap is for. Because if things that are legitimately in the game are taken out on your basis, you are essentially putting a handicap on.

The l-cancel is no where near as game destroying as snaking in Mario Kart. Sure they are both exclusive techniques. But cancelling has been a staple in many fighting games, not just Smash. It adds to the aspect of tactics and technicality.
 
Something is always going to separate the good players from the not so good. If the game isnt technical, what decides who wins if both players have the same mastery of the basic mechanics?

Things like reading ahead, traps, responding to your opponent and forcing your opponent into doing this or that. A battle of wits as it were.

What do you get if you add more technical dificulty?

The only thing is that on top of the abovementioned things required to win when you increase the technicality of the game is the bar of what "mastery of the basics" is. Other than that, what separates the better player is the same. That is why its unnecessary.

The relationship between accessibility and technicality is inverse and exponential. I think like with graphics, the design is already far enough along the curve where it starts to be harmful more than helpful should we proceed further.
 
Again, I would like to draw a heavy distinction between canceling a single, particular move in Soul Calibur and going into a limited amount of other moves, and canceling lag by half on EVERY move.

Consider the Street Fighter series, but particularly the early ones. Overall much lower on the scale of technicality than a lot of other fighters. Yet there can be a healthy competitive scene.
 
Ok, the l-cancel adds much more than just a technical chore. It reduces lag time obviously which allows more time to utilize than a non l-canceled move. After an l-cancel a person can spot dodge, roll, dash dance, attack, etc. If they took out l-cancel in smash, all one needs to do is block and shield grab or spot dodge and smack them destroying all those other options. Now where's the battle of wits in that? It'll take away the aerial game, reducing the dimensions of the game ultimately.

And the way you described the game of wits was what most would call "turtling". The l-cancel is a big part in the offensive game. So big that it balances out the turtling strategy.

Again, just because i don't know how to ride a bicycle doesn't mean that the rest of the people in the bicycle marathon aren't allowed to use a bike.

The basic idea of a cancel is to reduce time. And through this reduction of time it may allow more hits, more time for manipulation during opponent's stun time, etc. Both Soul Calibur and all other fighting games that utilize this cancel term address this. Of course they can't let this happen with a simple untimed button press, or the game will be broken. There has to be some sort of technical requirement that may come in the form of timing, input/button combinations, or a combination of the two. So cancelling isn't a free advantage, it's balanced out by demand for technique.

And I don't understand why you brought up accessibility being inverse prop to technique. Of course if person A doesn't play as much as person B, person B is more likely to win in a match. It can't be helped. But effort, reflexes, memory, and strategy take at least some factor into this equation. People are not the same as you or me, we are all different and when people are pitted against each other in competition there are winners and losers. And if there are more aspects to a game that help differentiate winners from losers, I'd say more power to those who have greater mastery in more fields, they deserve to win.
 
I'm already not buying the game, but I do want to at least play it if someone brings it over or I'm over somewhere. I sold Melee after it was no longer fun to play with the people I used to play with. Same with Mario Kart DS except that was after trying online.

Everyone has their own requirements on how they want the game to be, thats all.
 
But L-Canceling isn't even that complicated of a command. It's actually incredibly easy to learn and master. It's hitting L (or R) as your attack hits the ground. Where's the difficulty?

I've made arguments that question the very nature of wave-dashing (I basically see it as a useless, show-offy technique), but I can't stop people from using it. It's a technique that helps someone manipulate the physics of the game, and that feels a bit slutty to me. But L-Canceling isn't something that can compare to WD'ing. It's a mechanic that was built into the game, and was meant to be used by everyone.

I mean, if I was playing as Ryu in SF, and I were to slide behind someone simply by moving in a certain way and pull off a super combo whenever I wished, I think that someone would be mighty peeved. But if I were to pull off a simple Hadoken, would that person get angered over the fact that I can do one or not?

EDIT: I just realized that you can kinda do the example I made with SF. *cough*AKUMA*cough* If I was a better Soul Calibur player, I would've made a reference.
 
Yes, another reason why I think L-cancelling wont go anywhere too soon is that anyone can do it, like Mr. Beef said. A simple button press that requires timing isn't that tall of an order I think.

As for wavedashing, the move is certainly a little more exclusive because of the timing and input combination being harder that basic input commands like smashes, dashing, etc. However it too can be used by anyone. It has many uses such as cancelling dashes, spacing, and quicker movement left and right. As "cheap" as it seems it adds to the mindgame aspect. Plus WDing has its limits, it obviously can be read and there are susceptible frames, specifically during the sliding motion.

I admit I use it in my game as well, but I'll be fine if it is taken out. I'm still unsure if the developers intentionally put it in the game or not. However, I find it strangely convenient that someone dodging into the ground can slide (what a wavedash essentially is).
 
[quote name='MarioColbert']If you ever have questions like that, you should check out the number one source for "everything you need to know about a title in progress" and by that I mean Wikipedia. Here is what it says on the subject:



If you are too lazy to click on the Reference links in the quote, here is the summary of source material:




and more recently:



This research took less than 5 minutes to do, and now I have cold, hard QUOTES. Bam.[/quote]

Thanks for the research but none of that actually says online vs. play. It could be for stupid stuff like sharing items with other players.
 
[quote name='Mr. Beef']As lame as some of these updates have been, I wouldn't be surprised if that really was the next update.[/quote]
You can't honestly expect every update to be major can you? I know I want some surprises when I start playing the game.
Personally I like this steady stream of small information (along with the occasional bigger update) that we're getting for Brawl.
 
[quote name='Kaijufan']You can't honestly expect every update to be major can you? I know I want some surprises when I start playing the game.
Personally I like this steady stream of small information (along with the occasional bigger update) that we're getting for Brawl.[/QUOTE]


No, we don't expect major announcements. However, being told to get back on the stage when your smashed off..or moving left or right can hardly be considered updates...
 
[quote name='lilboo']No, we don't expect major announcements. However, being told to get back on the stage when your smashed off..or moving left or right can hardly be considered updates...[/quote]
Having the Wiimote sideways tells me that they are also hoping that casual Wii Sports/Play fans will pick up SSBB, and I would guess an update like that is for them (although I doubt many of those type of people visit the SSBB site).
Of course, they did 2 character profiles the day after the jumping update, so I guess they knew people were disappointed by such a weak update.
 
[quote name='lilboo']No, we don't expect major announcements. However, being told to get back on the stage when your smashed off..or moving left or right can hardly be considered updates...[/QUOTE]
Technically that can be a big update. It allludes to the game running on the same principles of previous installments. Thankfully it won't be like powerstone 2.
 
This game is going to be sofa-king laaaaaaaaaaaaaaame!!!! JUST KIDDING! I could care less about updates. I just wanna play the game. Why do I have a feeling that those playing with the Wiimote sideways are going to be bring out a new version of "button mashing" to life? I would be pissed if my wife beats me by just waving the wiimote and pressing buttons, while I try to do percision button pressing on the GC controller.
 
I loved both Power Stone games, but I didn't like how they got rid of the Kick button in 2. I still don't see the reasoning for that one. It turned into a button-mashing fest, which I suppose could fit the 4-player atmosphere.

And no, I don't expect mind-blowing updates everyday, but I do at least expect them to actually be "updates," not reminders.
 
So how many people actually understand that the 'move left to right' "update" was not real and was made (uploaded at least) by a funnyman by the name of RagnarokX? Everyone, right?
 
[quote name='supershammy']So how many people actually understand that the 'move left to right' "update" was not real and was made (uploaded at least) by a funnyman by the name of RagnarokX? Everyone, right?[/quote]

Just the two of us it seems.
 
As irritating - and misdirected - as it sounds, the updates aren't honestly meant for the hardcore set.

The irony of course is that we're the only ones who will keep up with that information, meaning that the update re: "get back on the stage!" isn't meant for us, yet we are inevitably the only ones who are reading it.

So I'm fully aware of that. I'm just saying.
 
[quote name='dallow']Just the two of us it seems.[/quote]

Me too!
If nothing else, you should be able to tell by the fact it was dated last Thursday.
 
[quote name='ChibiJosh']Me too!
If nothing else, you should be able to tell by the fact it was dated last Thursday.[/quote]

Oh, there are many indicators to its factuality (or lack there of), from the photobucket.com link to the date to the format to the fact that it is a screencap, not a direct link to the smashbros.com page. Also, why would someone have an advance of a blog post, especially one that is originally written in Japanese?
 
[quote name='supershammy']Oh, there are many indicators to its factuality (or lack there of), from the photobucket.com link to the date to the format to the fact that it is a screencap, not a direct link to the smashbros.com page. Also, why would someone have an advance of a blog post, especially one that is originally written in Japanese?[/quote]
That's why I started off with "if nothing else." But, thanks.

By the way, Fox profile up.
 
[quote name='ChibiJosh']That's why I started off with "if nothing else." But, thanks.

By the way, Fox profile up.[/quote]

I'm not criticizing you in any way man, I was trying to relate with you on how unbelievable it is that others didn't get it.

Also, Fox looks like a furry now.
 
[quote name='EXStrike']Ohh man, I lol'd when I first read that.[/quote]

The second time, it seems, it had already began to lose its charm....
 
I like Fox's new look more than the one in Melee...just...something slightly wrong with it...but at least its better :D
 
[quote name='Spades22']I like Fox's new look more than the one in Melee...just...something slightly wrong with it...but at least its better :D[/QUOTE]
Hmm, at first it took a while for me to get used to the Melee Fox, but now I personally think the 64 Fox looks a little lame. Even though I think the current Fox looks like a chipmunk, I believe I'll get used to the design over time.

I'm still laughing about the first trailer though when the four chars got design/graphic upgrades and Kirby's was pretty much the same looks-wise.
 
[quote name='maigoyume']it looks like his dash + A has been changed to a tackle now though[/quote]Maybe. It could just be his forward throw, also. I think it had almost the same animation.
 
[quote name='Mr. Beef']Maybe. It could just be his forward throw, also. I think it had almost the same animation.[/QUOTE]
Wow, I completely forgot that move. I'd like to think it's his forward throw move. But if it's his charge, I guess it's ok. Though it doesn't seem like a characteristic move of his since his build is pretty small.

Oh, and I finally noticed the DBZ power level sensor he's wearing. Now he can say "Over Nine-THousaaaanndd!" if they choose to include korny pre-match cut scenes.
 
A lot of people tend to forget Fox's forward throw, because nobody ever uses it. It's always "up-throw into up-air, good game."

The sensor is over his eye? I don't know why I never noticed it.

EDIT: New Yoshi level. Seems kinda small, but it might lead to some nice frantic shit. Also, the addition of a ghost to randomly help people makes me think of all the times I was saved by Mr. Cloud in Melee's Yoshi level.
 
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