The myth of "Islamophobia" in America

[quote name='berzirk']I know I'm going to regret this, but for once, I agree with Knoell. People who blindly follow one political group over another, then wear their atheism like a badge amuse me. It's the same kind of fanatical mentality that you claim to hate from organized religion.

I don't understand how rational, smart, people, can be registered as anything but Independent. If people that have a disdain for significant parts of both parties, just changed their political affiiliation away from the two big parties, that would finally send a message. Can you imagine if 60% of the country was registered Independent? Still pick and choose candidates based on the individual's credentials (I'm not saying blindly follow Independents) but perhaps this would be a message to our current elected officials that we want more centrist policies.

Ahh...things that will never happen in my life, no matter how much I wish they would. Like a romantic relationship with Mariah Carey circa 1995.[/QUOTE]

Independents also lose primary votes leaving the only political candidates very skewed towards the extremes. People turning independent is exactly the reason, if you ask me, why politicians have become more partisan. Why would any rational and smart people would let radicals dictate the candidates from both viable political parties. :p
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Independents also lose primary votes leaving the only political candidates very skewed towards the extremes. People turning independent is exactly the reason, if you ask me, why politicians have become more partisan. Why would any rational and smart people would let radicals dictate the candidates from both viable political parties. :p[/QUOTE]

But you're missing the trees for the forest here. Who gives a damn who the red or blue candidate is. If 60% of the electorate is Independent, then you start getting third party candidates that matter too. If a technical majority of the country is registered independent, and only slightly better than half of them vote for the third party candidate, they've just won the election.

And this philosophy isn't just tied to presidential elections, I'm talking local and state elections too. I truly think most Americans like bits and pieces of both parties, but in some sort of strange mob mentality, they refuse to acknowledge it, and blindly follow the single party position.

Regarding the presidential primaries, I'm reminded of Rush and other's movement to have Republicans change affiliation so they could screw with the Democratic primary. Heck, my wife changed from either Repub or Independent (can't remember which) so she could vote against Hilary Clinton.

Edit: Loving the ps "3" tag someone put on this post! Haa haa.
 
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I used to say I was fiscally conservative, but considering what Republicans have now made that mean, I don't think I can say that without having to explain it further.
 
[quote name='berzirk']But you're missing the trees for the forest here. Who gives a damn who the red or blue candidate is. If 60% of the electorate is Independent, then you start getting third party candidates that matter too. If a technical majority of the country is registered independent, and only slightly better than half of them vote for the third party candidate, they've just won the election.

And this philosophy isn't just tied to presidential elections, I'm talking local and state elections too. I truly think most Americans like bits and pieces of both parties, but in some sort of strange mob mentality, they refuse to acknowledge it, and blindly follow the single party position.

Regarding the presidential primaries, I'm reminded of Rush and other's movement to have Republicans change affiliation so they could screw with the Democratic primary. Heck, my wife changed from either Repub or Independent (can't remember which) so she could vote against Hilary Clinton.

Edit: Loving the ps "3" tag someone put on this post! Haa haa.[/QUOTE]

Nope, counties with election systems like ours don't produce viable third parties. The only one that ever did was the Ukraine I believe, although they are also a weird case politically. First past the post systems/simple plurality electoral systems don't work the way you describe. Unless there is a fundamental shift in the way we elect candidates there is a ton of empirical evidence saying viable third party candidates will never appear and your best logical bet is to shift one of the major political parties to your position. However without voting in primaries, whose rules vary by state with some allowing independents to pick which primary to vote in, that only allow you to vote if you are apart of said primaries party, no public primary, or free for all primaries there is a little chance one will center parties towards the center (which is a misnomer since we really have no political left of this country). Now if we had a two round non primary system, which some states seem to be adopting, then your sentiments would have a basis.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Nope, counties with election systems like ours don't produce viable third parties. The only one that ever did was the Ukraine I believe, although they are also a weird case politically. First past the post systems/simple plurality electoral systems don't work the way you describe. Unless there is a fundamental shift in the way we elect candidates there is a ton of empirical evidence saying viable third party candidates will never appear and your best logical bet is to shift one of the major political parties to your position. However without voting in primaries, whose rules vary by state with some allowing independents to pick which primary to vote in, that only allow you to vote if you are apart of said primaries party, no public primary, or free for all primaries there is a little chance one will center parties towards the center (which is a misnomer since we really have no political left of this country). Now if we had a two round non primary system, which some states seem to be adopting, then your sentiments would have a basis.[/QUOTE]

Crazy Ross Perot had a legitimate shot at winning until he dropped out once claiming aliens were abducting his children or something, then re-entering the race. Instead of getting a higher percentage of the vote he cost George Bush Sr. the election.

I think the tea party in some ways tried to get this idea of a third party going and they've had whatever level of success you think they've had. This has been within a couple of years. As racist and xenophobic as I think most of their candidates and supporters are, they have still had significant results on elections, and managed to win a few.

I don't think this plan would work in a year, but as an ideological shift, if the voting public decided to support issues more than political parties, I think the political landscape of this country would much better mirror the voting public. I feel like the Democrats have had long enough to achieve worthwhile results, the Republicans have had long enough to achieve worthwhile results, IMO both have failed miserably, and it's in large part because they strive to help themselves and their party before they help their constituents.

It's probably a utopian wet dream of mine, but in my voting life I've never seen a time where I thought a third party candidate could be more successful than right now.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Crazy Ross Perot had a legitimate shot at winning until he dropped out once claiming aliens were abducting his children or something, then re-entering the race. Instead of getting a higher percentage of the vote he cost George Bush Sr. the election.

I think the tea party in some ways tried to get this idea of a third party going and they've had whatever level of success you think they've had. This has been within a couple of years. As racist and xenophobic as I think most of their candidates and supporters are, they have still had significant results on elections, and managed to win a few.

I don't think this plan would work in a year, but as an ideological shift, if the voting public decided to support issues more than political parties, I think the political landscape of this country would much better mirror the voting public. I feel like the Democrats have had long enough to achieve worthwhile results, the Republicans have had long enough to achieve worthwhile results, IMO both have failed miserably, and it's in large part because they strive to help themselves and their party before they help their constituents.

It's probably a utopian wet dream of mine, but in my voting life I've never seen a time where I thought a third party candidate could be more successful than right now.[/QUOTE]

Some third party candidates can effectively use wedge issues (Ross and Tea Party) however they are salient parties that may win one or two elections and then go away (like the populist party). On Perot, forgive I was too young to remember his campaign but have looked at the data pre and post withdraw, which he said was to keep his family out of the limelight) had good approval stats but if I remember his electoral support was weak, because his areas of greatest support were concentrated. In a world of what ifs I doubt he would have won, but that is just my opinion.
 
Perot didn't cost Bush Sr. the election. It was the will of the people that Clinton be elected, right? That's how it always goes, isn't it? The overwhelming will of the people?
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Some third party ...[/QUOTE]

OT but every time I see your icon I want to go watch some Marble Hornets.

It was a good series but there was also alot of waiting around - could have been a little snappier. Still creepy as heck.
 
[quote name='camoor']OT but every time I see your icon I want to go watch some Marble Hornets.

It was a good series but there was also alot of waiting around - could have been a little snappier. Still creepy as heck.[/QUOTE]

It is a good series. Have you been watching the second season that started a few months ago? Moving a little faster and they finally revealed who masky is.


[quote name='Clak']Perot didn't cost Bush Sr. the election. It was the will of the people that Clinton be elected, right? That's how it always goes, isn't it? The overwhelming will of the people?[/QUOTE]

No in fact I believe if we had popular elections he actually had a really good chance to to win. I just think he would have gotten screwed over by a technicality.
 
[quote name='Clak']Perot didn't cost Bush Sr. the election. It was the will of the people that Clinton be elected, right? That's how it always goes, isn't it? The overwhelming will of the people?[/QUOTE]

No in fact I believe if we had popular elections he actually had a really good chance to to win. I just think he would have gotten screwed over by a technicality.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']It is a good series. Have you been watching the second season that started a few months ago? Moving a little faster and they finally revealed who masky is.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reminder, I'm a couple episodes behind!
 
[quote name='cindersphere']It is a good series. Have you been watching the second season that started a few months ago? Moving a little faster and they finally revealed who masky is.




No in fact I believe if we had popular elections he actually had a really good chance to to win. I just think he would have gotten screwed over by a technicality.[/QUOTE]
That was a play on the "it's the will of the people" line that gets thrown around a lot lately.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']It is a good series. Have you been watching the second season that started a few months ago? Moving a little faster and they finally revealed who masky is.[/QUOTE]

Had no idea - will need to check this out. On a day that isn't St Pats. Thx for the headsup
 
If a Quran is burned, but nobody is there to see it, was it really burned? That crazy pastor is at it again. Apparently nobody offered him a free car to shut him up.

On a side note, have you ever known a sane person to have that facial hair who WASN'T singing YMCA?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzYZz4EUyU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F7b0EQ2dvU

I love how this received absolutely no coverage because people think this guy is such a dipshit. I literally laughed out loud when I watched the first video.

Apparently Daylight Savings Time didn't bring him a new 15 minutes of fame.
 
As soon as someone pronounces it as "moslum" I usually just shut them out. I don't know if it's just ignorance or hostility, but dammit there is no O in the word.
 
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...cher_muslims_have_no_first_amendment_righ.php

Bryan Fischer, the "Director of Issues Analysis" for the social conservative group the American Family Association, says that when it comes to Islam, the First Amendment is a privilege, not a right. "Islam has no fundamental First Amendment claims, for the simple reason that it was not written to protect the religion of Islam," Fischer wrote today.

"The First Amendment was written by the Founders to protect the free exercise of Christianity. They were making no effort to give special protections to Islam. Quite the contrary," Fischer wrote on his Renew America blog.

He continued: "Islam has no fundamental First Amendment claims, for the simple reason that it was not written to protect the religion of Islam. Islam is entitled only to the religious liberty we extend to it out of courtesy. While there certainly ought to be a presumption of religious liberty for non-Christian religious traditions in America, the Founders were not writing a suicide pact when they wrote the First Amendment.

Fischer took it a step further, calling Islam a "treasonous ideology" and adding that "from a constitutional point of view, Muslims have no First Amendment right to build mosques in America. They have that privilege at the moment, but it is a privilege that can be revoked."

Fischer, also known for his frequent anti-gay, anti-bear rhetoric, has previously called for the U.S. to have "no more mosques, period," because "every single mosque is a potential terror training center or recruitment center for jihad." He's also suggested that we should "handle Muslims just like we handle neo-Nazis."

And his show is a frequent stomping ground for conservative politicians, including potential 2012 presidential candidate Mike Huckabee, and actual 2012 candidate Tim Pawlenty.
Click to expand...

Stay classy, AFA.
 
Hopefully lots of people will condemn that since his claim would also mean that Buddhism Hinduism and Judaism (and every other non-Christian religion...) weren't intended to be covered by the 1st Amendment.
 
[quote name='Strell']C'mon myke. Surely you know that slang.[/QUOTE]

See, I thought it was that at first too. But no, it's actually crazier:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...onservative_bryan_fischer_its_time_to_get.php

Bryan Fischer really hates it when animals attack. Like, hates it so much that he thinks we'd be better off without them.

Which is why Fischer, who is the "Director of Issues Analysis" for the conservative Christian group the American Family Association, wrote a blog post today called "A hot dog on two legs - time for open season on Yellowstone grizzlies," in which he refers to Grizzly Bears as a "curse" and says that "it's time" for the grizzlies to go.

...

He references a November 6 article in the Los Angeles Times about the high death toll of bears in the Yellowstone region this year, which the article says is the worst on record. Fischer's point is that the piece "exudes far more compassion for live bears than dead people," since the two people who died from grizzly attacks only warrant a fifth-paragraph mention.

"One human being is worth more than an infinite number of grizzly bears," Fischer writes. "Another way to put it is that there is no number of live grizzlies worth one dead human being. If it's a choice between grizzlies and humans, the grizzlies have to go. And it's time."

He continues: "Of course there is a simple answer: shoot these man-eaters on sight. God makes it clear in Scripture that deaths of people and livestock at the hands of savage beasts is a sign that the land is under a curse. The tragic thing here is that we are bringing this curse upon ourselves," Fischer writes.mosque is a potential terror training center or recruitment center for jihad."
Click to expand...
 
I actually thought that too, but he means actual bears? :rofl: x2. I bet he loves that Yogi Bear/Jesse James video.
 
[quote name='Strell']C'mon myke. Surely you know that slang.[/QUOTE]

Of course, but it's not like they weren't covered in the prior phrase of "anti-gay."

Dude is Stephen Colbert.
 
I'd love to see the Anti-Defamation League get in on this. Cause you know once you piss those kind of people off, you're going to hear about it. You know, lawyers. :shame:
 
I missed the anti-bear thing before and got a nice little pee inducing chuckle out of it. That's just absolutely fucking absurd.

Tangentially on the topic of the linked report:
"Altogether, these seven charitable groups provided $42.6 million to Islamophobia think tanks between 2001 and 2009—funding that supports the scholars and experts that are the subject of our next chapter as well as some of the grassroots groups that are the subject of Chapter 3 of our report."

So how is one to breakdown who is who in terms of these scholars? I mean hell, you can end up with colorofcrime.com with decent amount of intelligent sounding research, but suddenly another group decides that Islamophobia needs to be exposed because it's a huge deal. Ask Doritos what $42 million in advertising will get you. When it boils right down to it, the marketshare of "promoted" Islamophobia vs what's going to be there as xenophobia in general isn't going to be all that great.

Inspite of all that, we still didn't get around to internment camps or anything so I think we've improved since WWII which is apparently the benchmark for America The Beautiful.
 
This is an excellent piece of investigative journalism. Creating criminals to catch them so you can claim you are doing your job! Wow, wish I could get paid for that... hmmm... Sounds like a lot of jobs. Actually we do manufacture problems at work just "solve" them too. HAHA! But I digress... No Islamophobia or the manufacture of it here!

Terrorists for the FBI
http://motherjones.com/special-reports/2011/08/fbi-terrorist-informants


THIS is right-wing charity! Million$$$ for hate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unX_4iHT1HI&feature=share

Right Wing Extremists On The Rise But...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtLbsVzalK0&feature=share
 
[quote name='joeboosauce']This is an excellent piece of investigative journalism. Creating criminals to catch them so you can claim you are doing your job! Wow, wish I could get paid for that... hmmm... Sounds like a lot of jobs. Actually we do manufacture problems at work just "solve" them too. HAHA! But I digress... No Islamophobia or the manufacture of it here!

Terrorists for the FBI
http://motherjones.com/special-reports/2011/08/fbi-terrorist-informants

Meh, mixed feelings on your point. Certainly there are some in the government who don't like Muslims, treat them unfairly, and go to great lengths to charge them with something, but there are enough checks and balances in the system, that a couple of rogue agents would be hard-pressed to go through with this and succeed. I don't think it's a systemic issue. I'm probably closer to all of this stuff than anybody else here. I've been "interviewed" (PC version of interrogated-no force, not torture or anything like that, but when the Feds give you a call and say they'd like to talk, there aren't a lot of options to decline ;)

Overwhelmingly though, my experience with federal law enforcement has been really positive, and it's been really positive for the community I live in. Maybe we've just got some good guys in our neck of the woods, but it's not as cut and dry as "the FBI traps Muslims to charge them with terrorism".

I do agree that right wing violent extremists are on the rise, and in my area, left wing extremists (eco-terrorists) were a big deal about 10 years ago. The pendulum swings.
 
[quote name='joeboosauce']This is an excellent piece of investigative journalism. Creating criminals to catch them so you can claim you are doing your job! Wow, wish I could get paid for that... hmmm... Sounds like a lot of jobs. Actually we do manufacture problems at work just "solve" them too. HAHA! But I digress... No Islamophobia or the manufacture of it here!

Terrorists for the FBI
http://motherjones.com/special-reports/2011/08/fbi-terrorist-informants
[/QUOTE]

Meh, mixed feelings on your point. Certainly there are some in the government who don't like Muslims, treat them unfairly, and go to great lengths to charge them with something, but there are enough checks and balances in the system, that a couple of rogue agents would be hard-pressed to go through with this and succeed. I don't think it's a systemic issue. I'm probably closer to all of this stuff than anybody else here. I've been "interviewed" (PC version of interrogated-no force, not torture or anything like that, but when the Feds give you a call and say they'd like to talk, there aren't a lot of options to decline ;)

Overwhelmingly though, my experience with federal law enforcement has been really positive, and it's been really positive for the community I live in. Maybe we've just got some good guys in our neck of the woods, but it's not as cut and dry as "the FBI traps Muslims to charge them with terrorism".

I do agree that right wing violent extremists are on the rise, and in my area, left wing extremists (eco-terrorists) were a big deal about 10 years ago. The pendulum swings.
 
Ummm... did you read the report? How many terrorism arrests actually led to a conviction ON TERRORISM charges? How familiar are you with the Florida "cell"? Did you even see some of the gov't officials comments on this?

An then "some" who don't like Muslims or treat them unfairly? Just rogue agents??? Did you pay attention to how many are working on the right-wing threat? Going back to even recent discussions on issues of racism and the institutionalization of it, some people just don't get it. I get that from you. Usually you have to be on the receiving end and you'll likely be aware of it.

And "eco-terrorist"? Really? Sounds like a REALLY bad false equivalency...



[quote name='berzirk']Meh, mixed feelings on your point. Certainly there are some in the government who don't like Muslims, treat them unfairly, and go to great lengths to charge them with something, but there are enough checks and balances in the system, that a couple of rogue agents would be hard-pressed to go through with this and succeed. I don't think it's a systemic issue. I'm probably closer to all of this stuff than anybody else here. I've been "interviewed" (PC version of interrogated-no force, not torture or anything like that, but when the Feds give you a call and say they'd like to talk, there aren't a lot of options to decline ;)

Overwhelmingly though, my experience with federal law enforcement has been really positive, and it's been really positive for the community I live in. Maybe we've just got some good guys in our neck of the woods, but it's not as cut and dry as "the FBI traps Muslims to charge them with terrorism".

I do agree that right wing violent extremists are on the rise, and in my area, left wing extremists (eco-terrorists) were a big deal about 10 years ago. The pendulum swings.[/QUOTE]
 
No, no Islamophobia. Bill passed by their HOUSE! Think about how many Islamophobic fools are there. At least the Republican, regretted his knee-jerk Islamophobic/xenophobic/racist response. Common sense reaches through the fear-mongering of one Republican!!! Woo hoo! We need to mark this momentous occasion!:whee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBpRMFnIjEE
 
[quote name='joeboosauce']Ummm... did you read the report? How many terrorism arrests actually led to a conviction ON TERRORISM charges? How familiar are you with the Florida "cell"? Did you even see some of the gov't officials comments on this?

An then "some" who don't like Muslims or treat them unfairly? Just rogue agents??? Did you pay attention to how many are working on the right-wing threat? Going back to even recent discussions on issues of racism and the institutionalization of it, some people just don't get it. I get that from you. Usually you have to be on the receiving end and you'll likely be aware of it.

And "eco-terrorist"? Really? Sounds like a REALLY bad false equivalency...[/QUOTE]

Brotha, I'm around this stuff far more than you'd understand.

Oh, out here in the NW, Eco-terrorism was a real threat. The ELF was a danger, setting fire to equipment, spiking trees which resulted in death and serious injury. Calling in bomb threats to companies they didn't like. If may not be as widespread as other forms of terror, but in the NW this was really a big deal.

I saw multiple articles in the link you included, so maybe I read through one of them that you weren't intending instead. I know next to nothing about the Florida cell. I know more about West Coast incidents.

And you're right, I clearly don't get it. I mean, hell, I've been interviewed, detained at the airport, randomly selected...often, by Federal officials, but you read a couple of articles so you know more about all of this than I do. Feel free to PM me if you'd like and I'll gladly go into greater detail.

Edit: And I'm not saying Islamaphobia is not a big problem in the US. The problem with all of these kind of things is that education is the key to fixing it, but those who hate Muslims for no other reason that horsecrap they've seen on select TV shows, or read on websites that pander to their demographic. The open-minded, non-bigoted group that is more open to education about Islam and Muslims in America, are not the ones who are Islamaphobes. You can't force people to learn the truth about things (See current birthers for example)
 
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As far as the "eco-terrorists" thing and the right-wing threat, you should make the distinction between who there actions are targeted against. The former against companies which are decimating our natural resources. The latter against the government (and all those pesky "illegals," "Moozlums," "lazy people" (which is really THEIR code for blacks), and the next flavor of the month scapegoat. BIG difference.



As far as Islamophobia, education is key to battling it. But there is clearly not enough when you gauge the impact of propaganda that is put out by the media such as Faux News and then when you have supposedly liberal media ie MSNBC which don't question the fundamental racist implications of ideas about Muslims thrown out into the public sphere. Then you have the US gov't conducting garbage hearings against Muslims from the likes of xenophobes like Peter King. Then you have the approach of numerous law enforcement agencies that infiltrate and surveil the Muslim communities like was done under COINTELPRO. Then you have private citizens who promote hate with success with millions of dollars.

So, you have private interests, the media, and the gov't promoting Islamophobic ideas and reinforcing the "otherness" of Muslims.

It seems like you are basing the big picture on your personal and micro experiences with individuals in law enforcement. That always leads to an overly simplistic view. I too have come in contact with the FBI, etc and the people doing their jobs are generally fine people. But, even they will admit and express frustration with the lousy policy directives that they are at the mercy of. I had TSA stop me “randomly” not once but TWICE after I went through security and then at the gate. Two random security checks onto one flight. Wish I had those “random” odds in Vegas! The TSA folks on the second check were very apologetic and PISSED at the rules that unfairly target people like me.

So, I am saying that fundamental and grievous errors need to be reversed to end this plague of Islamophobia. The gov’t is fomenting Islamophobia through its policies and its messages. Really, the lack of an anti-Islamophobic message when blatant Islamophobia comes up. As with the “Ground Zero Mosque” (copyright Faux News) or the campaigns against Mosques being built. It’s time people with undue access to the media airwaves declare those as views grounded in racism. Just as with blacks and other minorities, this is the institutionalization of racism that most are not aware of. Unless you have the cognizance to see the big picture.

This the article you should read from the previous link (as well as some extras that make my point.):
The Informants
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/fbi-terrorist-informants

Growing Number of Americans Say Obama is a Muslim
http://pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/Growing-Number-of-Americans-Say-Obama-is-a-Muslim.aspx

"Fear, Inc." Exposes the So-Called Experts and Donors Behind Islamophobia in the United States
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/9/6/fear_inc_exposes_the_so_called


[quote name='berzirk']Brotha, I'm around this stuff far more than you'd understand.

Oh, out here in the NW, Eco-terrorism was a real threat. The ELF was a danger, setting fire to equipment, spiking trees which resulted in death and serious injury. Calling in bomb threats to companies they didn't like. If may not be as widespread as other forms of terror, but in the NW this was really a big deal.

I saw multiple articles in the link you included, so maybe I read through one of them that you weren't intending instead. I know next to nothing about the Florida cell. I know more about West Coast incidents.

And you're right, I clearly don't get it. I mean, hell, I've been interviewed, detained at the airport, randomly selected...often, by Federal officials, but you read a couple of articles so you know more about all of this than I do. Feel free to PM me if you'd like and I'll gladly go into greater detail.

Edit: And I'm not saying Islamaphobia is not a big problem in the US. The problem with all of these kind of things is that education is the key to fixing it, but those who hate Muslims for no other reason that horsecrap they've seen on select TV shows, or read on websites that pander to their demographic. The open-minded, non-bigoted group that is more open to education about Islam and Muslims in America, are not the ones who are Islamaphobes. You can't force people to learn the truth about things (See current birthers for example)[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='joeboosauce']As far as the "eco-terrorists" thing and the right-wing threat, you should make the distinction between who there actions are targeted against. The former against companies which are decimating our natural resources. The latter against the government (and all those pesky "illegals," "Moozlums," "lazy people" (which is really THEIR code for blacks), and the next flavor of the month scapegoat. BIG difference.



As far as Islamophobia, education is key to battling it. But there is clearly not enough when you gauge the impact of propaganda that is put out by the media such as Faux News and then when you have supposedly liberal media ie MSNBC which don't question the fundamental racist implications of ideas about Muslims thrown out into the public sphere. Then you have the US gov't conducting garbage hearings against Muslims from the likes of xenophobes like Peter King. Then you have the approach of numerous law enforcement agencies that infiltrate and surveil the Muslim communities like was done under COINTELPRO. Then you have private citizens who promote hate with success with millions of dollars.

So, you have private interests, the media, and the gov't promoting Islamophobic ideas and reinforcing the "otherness" of Muslims.

It seems like you are basing the big picture on your personal and micro experiences with individuals in law enforcement. That always leads to an overly simplistic view. I too have come in contact with the FBI, etc and the people doing their jobs are generally fine people. But, even they will admit and express frustration with the lousy policy directives that they are at the mercy of. I had TSA stop me “randomly” not once but TWICE after I went through security and then at the gate. Two random security checks onto one flight. Wish I had those “random” odds in Vegas! The TSA folks on the second check were very apologetic and PISSED at the rules that unfairly target people like me.

So, I am saying that fundamental and grievous errors need to be reversed to end this plague of Islamophobia. The gov’t is fomenting Islamophobia through its policies and its messages. Really, the lack of an anti-Islamophobic message when blatant Islamophobia comes up. As with the “Ground Zero Mosque” (copyright Faux News) or the campaigns against Mosques being built. It’s time people with undue access to the media airwaves declare those as views grounded in racism. Just as with blacks and other minorities, this is the institutionalization of racism that most are not aware of. Unless you have the cognizance to see the big picture.

This the article you should read from the previous link (as well as some extras that make my point.):
The Informants
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/fbi-terrorist-informants

Growing Number of Americans Say Obama is a Muslim
http://pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/Growing-Number-of-Americans-Say-Obama-is-a-Muslim.aspx

"Fear, Inc." Exposes the So-Called Experts and Donors Behind Islamophobia in the United States
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/9/6/fear_inc_exposes_the_so_called[/QUOTE]

I'll try to spend some time reading the links.

I'm really not trying to oversimplify anything here. My "sample size" consists of several hundred, if not a couple thousand friends, associates, and their friends and associates, throughout the country and throughout the world. The government has some crappy policies in place, one of the things that was jaw-dropping to me was a story a few weeks back about the FBI's training academy "Islam" studying materials. It was incorrect, promoted stereotypes, and an embarassment to the organization. So, let's say you're a counterterrorism agent who had no knowledge about Islam until the FBI academy, you're assigned to the counter-terrorism group. You will be coming into contact with a lot of Muslims. My sincere hope is that most of them will be polite, kind, honest people. Over time, that should change predisposed feelings on the group. The same should hold true for other departments who are terrorism focused. If not, then that's a mark against Muslims for being poor ambassadors of their faith.

Peter King and pigs like him are just that. Pigs. He was heavily criticized by rational people, but sadly there are lots of irrational people on both sides of the spectrum, but it's true King is particularly vile. Wish he didn't do it, but if he wants to prove to everyone he's one of the biggest assholes in Congress, that's his right. His constituents should vote him out IMO, but perhaps he's pandering to his demographic. Wouldn't be the first time that happened.

We both agree that education is the key to reversing societal Islamaphobia that people have built up by piles of vomit like Pamela Geller, Michael (Savage) Weiner, Pat Robertson, Rick Santorum, The Quran Burner-guy, and the like, but those people are looking for news that validates their beliefs, not informs them. They aren't going to read in the paper that the local mosque is hosting an open house and decide to go. The folks that would go are already open minded and tolerant of Muslims. Private citizens promoting hate sucks too. So how bout a countergroup of citizens spend millions for positive PR? Some people chose, no, work hard, to remain ignorant. I'm not sure how you reach those people.

So, would it be great if the Islamaphobes educated themselves and denounced their bigotry? Surely. But I think Muslims need to do more to work within their communities, be good role models, good citizens.

Embedding agents inside mosques and Islamic communities really doesn't bother me. I'm sure there are times when their tactics cross the line and they are no longer surveilling, but rather trying to bait people into actions, and I have a problem with that, but I still think on overwhelming majority of these people have just blended in and try to discover misled whackos in different communities, so they can take care of the problem before a bigger problem occurs.

If I'm not guilty of anything, then why should surveillance, wiretapping, or embedding agents in mosques bother me, so long as our jurists proclaim it to be legal?

I do take a bit of offence to you basically saying "why care if the eco-terrorists are sticking it to the man". I'm guessing you aren't too aware of what they do. They spike trees. The logger cutting the tree down with a chainsaw, who has the chain break and rip skin off their face, or die isn't "The Man". He's the freakin labor. They set fire to machiney, which in turn puts these seasonal workers out of a job. That season tends to be their income for the year. You cut a few weeks out of that, and they are homeless. If the eco-terrorists are freedom fighters against those decimating our natural resources, I suggest you quit using items made of wood, paper or pulp. Again, I'm NW biased, but out here, crazies trying to maim and kill folks, regardless of the cause, are frowned upon.

I definitely don't know your background, but I feel like you're stepping into this issue with a noble view, you've read a bunch of webpages, but this topic is one of the VERY, VERY, VERRRRRY few topics that I've got an incredibly deep level of personal experience with on a really large scale. If anybody in this thread would be justified in their outrage over this kind of thing, it would be me, but at least at the social level, we're saying, people aren't allowed to have bigoted, stupid opinions. They very much are.
 
[quote name='berzirk']I'll try to spend some time reading the links.

I'm really not trying to oversimplify anything here. My "sample size" consists of several hundred, if not a couple thousand friends, associates, and their friends and associates, throughout the country and throughout the world. The government has some crappy policies in place, one of the things that was jaw-dropping to me was a story a few weeks back about the FBI's training academy "Islam" studying materials. It was incorrect, promoted stereotypes, and an embarassment to the organization. So, let's say you're a counterterrorism agent who had no knowledge about Islam until the FBI academy, you're assigned to the counter-terrorism group. You will be coming into contact with a lot of Muslims. My sincere hope is that most of them will be polite, kind, honest people. Over time, that should change predisposed feelings on the group. The same should hold true for other departments who are terrorism focused. If not, then that's a mark against Muslims for being poor ambassadors of their faith.[/quote]
That last part is problematic because if the law enforcement agencies are getting the wrong information, it's more of an issue of their methodology for how they get the information and not the group that they're getting it from.

Peter King and pigs like him are just that. Pigs. He was heavily criticized by rational people, but sadly there are lots of irrational people on both sides of the spectrum, but it's true King is particularly vile. Wish he didn't do it, but if he wants to prove to everyone he's one of the biggest assholes in Congress, that's his right. His constituents should vote him out IMO, but perhaps he's pandering to his demographic. Wouldn't be the first time that happened.

We both agree that education is the key to reversing societal Islamaphobia that people have built up by piles of vomit like Pamela Geller, Michael (Savage) Weiner, Pat Robertson, Rick Santorum, The Quran Burner-guy, and the like, but those people are looking for news that validates their beliefs, not informs them. They aren't going to read in the paper that the local mosque is hosting an open house and decide to go. The folks that would go are already open minded and tolerant of Muslims. Private citizens promoting hate sucks too. So how bout a countergroup of citizens spend millions for positive PR? Some people chose, no, work hard, to remain ignorant. I'm not sure how you reach those people.
Click to expand...
The problem with "education" is that we assume that our system is setup to actually educate the populace on how to diseminate and think critically about the information we're given. More education in a broken education system isn't the answer; we need a complete overhaul of our education system. I'm not talking about math or english, but history and social sciences. Historiography is practically completely absent from our curriculum.

So, would it be great if the Islamaphobes educated themselves and denounced their bigotry? Surely. But I think Muslims need to do more to work within their communities, be good role models, good citizens.
Click to expand...
Why should a group that's being discriminated against need to do more to appease the ones that are doing the discriminating? Shouldn't it be the responsibility of those doing the discriminating, because they have the power to do so, to stop discriminating?

Yes, they should fight against ignorance and discrimination, but not by becoming some caricature of a model minority.

Embedding agents inside mosques and Islamic communities really doesn't bother me. I'm sure there are times when their tactics cross the line and they are no longer surveilling, but rather trying to bait people into actions, and I have a problem with that, but I still think on overwhelming majority of these people have just blended in and try to discover misled whackos in different communities, so they can take care of the problem before a bigger problem occurs.
Click to expand...
The US has had a very long history of infiltrating community groups, especially civil rights groups, to subvert them. Calling them "wackos" is no better than calling civil rights workers "commies" when there's a mountain of evidence that supports the existance of oppression and discrimination.

If I'm not guilty of anything, then why should surveillance, wiretapping, or embedding agents in mosques bother me, so long as our jurists proclaim it to be legal?
Click to expand...
In your context, being "guilty" is meaningless when guilt is determined by association or just looking like someone that was guilty of something.

I do take a bit of offence to you basically saying "why care if the eco-terrorists are sticking it to the man". I'm guessing you aren't too aware of what they do. They spike trees. The logger cutting the tree down with a chainsaw, who has the chain break and rip skin off their face, or die isn't "The Man". He's the freakin labor. They set fire to machiney, which in turn puts these seasonal workers out of a job. That season tends to be their income for the year. You cut a few weeks out of that, and they are homeless. If the eco-terrorists are freedom fighters against those decimating our natural resources, I suggest you quit using items made of wood, paper or pulp. Again, I'm NW biased, but out here, crazies trying to maim and kill folks, regardless of the cause, are frowned upon.
Click to expand...
This is a huge strawman. Yes, labor is important, but class consciousness is just as important. Not to mention being able to examine the systems we operate in. Telling someone to stop using wood byproducts is jingoistic and ignores the agency of the actual "man" to create a more sustainable system. Environmental activism isn't my thing, but when it comes to the actual laborers, they need to know how they're exploited as well.

I definitely don't know your background, but I feel like you're stepping into this issue with a noble view, you've read a bunch of webpages, but this topic is one of the VERY, VERY, VERRRRRY few topics that I've got an incredibly deep level of personal experience with on a really large scale. If anybody in this thread would be justified in their outrage over this kind of thing, it would be me, but at least at the social level, we're saying, people aren't allowed to have bigoted, stupid opinions. They very much are.
Click to expand...
Personal experience is sometimes different than personal understanding. Your perspective is still more of one that operates on an individualistic level, rather than a systemic one. This is evidenced in your better Muslim role-model and tree-cutter examples.
 
Too much to try and quote without losing what you were quoting, that I'm quoting...I'm dizzy.

The part where I blame Muslims is because as a Muslim, I see my mosque failing on occassion to be good members of the community. Whether it be something as inane as horrible parking practices where we block in our neighbor's cars around the mosque, to the kids that congregate there, throwing rocks, cussing, stealing from stores across the street or elders shouting at visitors because they didn't observe some custom they were unaware of when visiting. This isn't unique to the mosque I attend by the way, this can be found nationwide. The problem is, I expect better of the group I belong to. It's certainly unfair, but not unique. I expect better of my kids than stranger's kids. I expect better of myself than others.

edit: oh, and my reference to "whackos" was intended to consist of those who want to kill people, and use the faith to justify it. I'm not sure I understand the comparison you're making to calling civil rights workers commies.

Much to the dismay of Gellar and her thinktank sewer runoffs, Islam actually spread out of Arabia because the Muslims were known as loyal, honest, good businesspeople and citizens who took care of the defenseless and poor. Like other large organizations they started to get some overzealous leaders that led to the demise of the spread of the faith, but if more Muslims lived the aspects of the religion that caused this great spread, people in America would have a very different view because they would see Muslims actions speaking louder than words.

Unfortunately, (and doh, here is the part you'll eat up) through societal influence, many of these immigrant's children, and some first generation Muslims think that in order to fit in, they need to be a rap video character. N**** this and that, drinking, smoking weed, thinking they're little gang bangers. Again, all groups have their degenerates, but I'm not a member of all groups, so my group's shortcomings bother me the most.

So believe me, the experience and understanding is there. There are systemic forces at play both within the Muslim communities, and from those who hold bigoted opinions and factual inaccuries as truths.
 
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After spending 2-3 hours reading this entire thread, I'm glad it saves multiquotes from different pages of the thread.

[quote name='depascal22']That is a horrific list but not that extreme considering you took a sample of the ENTIRE world. 8 billion people and those are the people that are killed by "Islamic extremists" in the last two months.

Now, I'd like you to take out all of the attacks that were politically motivated. I see attacks on presidential palaces, attacks in Chechnya, sectarian attacks.

Seems like a cross section of that brutal murders that happen in every hood here in America every day. But who cares about that right? The thousands of colored people that die every year are insignificant compared to the thousands of Americans that died on 9/11 right?[/QUOTE]
How many of those colored people were killed as a result of gang stuff, or random acts? How many were killed in an organized attack on a group? (or in the case of 9/11, a country)

Also, WTF about the white people who die every year? Do they not matter?

[quote name='berzirk']Dude, seriously. If you think the topic was the tea party and the taliban, I'm going to tell you something that may turn your world upside down. Each thread has what I call 'a title'. Oftentimes this 'title' informs the reader of the topic.

This thread's title does not mention liberals or communists, therefore, it would apear you are 'off-topic'

Consider this an afterschool special, The More You Know.[/QUOTE]

Just an observation, but the title has to do with 1/4 groups mentioned, and only that one indirectly. (the Taliban) But yet the cartoon posted was apparently considered "on topic."

[quote name='Clak']Yeah, it isn't a problem until it reaches at least 89.14637% percent of the population or something, then that's too much dammit.

On another note, I think it's time another Team America movie was made.[/QUOTE]
Yes. we definitely need another Team America movie.

[quote name='Fayyaz100']Okay this answer is coming from a Muslim American who was born in Oregon. Islamophobia exists. Everyone saw the reactions from the anti-Ground Zero cultural center and everyone saw how much animosity was shown. Everyone that was against the cultural center is afraid of Islam. Phobias are not irrational fears. I don't understand how a fear of spiders or heights is irrational. Therefore Islamophobia is not an irrational fear of Islam, it IS a fear of Islam. Anti-ground zero cultural center protesters are only escalating things. A terrorist leader said that these sort of reactions against Muslims give the terrorists reason to recruit more people. I am also going to bring Fox News into this because 90% of it and it's followers are racists. Especially that Jihad Watch founder and Pamela Geller.[/QUOTE]
So because I think the placement chosen for the ground zero Mosque was insensitive, I'm Islamophobic? I think your glasses you view with are a bit colored by your religion, no offense.

[quote name='camoor']No shit

It's the etcs that we have a problem with. You know - the priests assaulting kids, the abortion clinic bombings, the homophobia, 'intelligent' design, etc etc etc.[/QUOTE]
You are just generalizing the etc, etc, etcs with stuff that I'm guessing 80-90% of Christians(or Catholics, I forget whih part of the thread this was from) don't support that stuff. Generalizing by either side isn't productive.

Also, there are some of us out there that believe in both Inteligent Design and Evolution. Shocker, I know.

[quote name='depascal22']Nobody is denying that Jews and Hindus have their problems here in America. But the main religious struggle going on here is Christianity vs. Islam.

The right doesn't get shitty when temples or synagogues get built. They go crazy when mosques are built. Well, the extreme right might get shitty when anything but a church gets built but they've been so busy with mosques lately, the Jews must be feeling left out.[/QUOTE]
Two things here: First, yes, the Jews must be pretty depressed that nobody is focusing on the hatred against them. Secondly, it isn't neccessarily Christianity vs. Islam as much at is it Islam vs. Christianity right now. You don't see random Christians beheading people in other countries or anything like that. (at least that I have seen/read about) Most of the violence in this that I have heard about, at least, is radical Ialsm killing Christians/Jews. (yes, I'm not counting the US Military overseas, since they are fighting for America, not Christianity)

[quote name='SgtMurder']What happened 20 years ago, doesn't matter now. What matters now is, we have people in our crosshairs that are dangerous and we are doing the best thing we can (which is profiling) to stop them before the next attack.

Also, please spare me the whole "da bwack man is still oppressed,depressed,obsessed etc." It's the 2010's, shut the fuck up complaining and get your shit together as a community.[/QUOTE]
This guy is a total fucking idiot. That is all I have to say about him.

[quote name='mykevermin']Democrats have talking points?

Why, that implies they're an organized political party. I won't stand for such libel.[/QUOTE]
Both sides have idiots, and both sides continually say shit about "they did it too" or some shit.

Anyways, I would like my last 2.5 hours back please. (I started reading at roughly 1AM EST, and it's now 330AM EST)

Please forgive any typos in my replies, I am about to fall asleep.

Thank you, and good night!
 
2.5hrs of reading through the thread, and those were the most worthy comments to multi-quote? Dazzling. I guess I was wrong. The terrorists have won.
 
You completely missed my point, dabamus. White people have their megaphone and we hear every atrocity committed against them. Little white girl gets kidnapped? International news. Black girl gets kidnapped the same day. Why was her mom doing crack in the back alley?

As for your second point, Islam is fighting back. We've used them for oil and target practice for decades. We've played games and installed dictators that have brutally repressed the common people. Now, they want revenge not on Christianity but on the west. We're responsible for the current state of affairs. They turned to religion because their governments were riddled with corruption and horrible cruelty. Now, they've replaced pro-Western governments (like the Shah in Iran) with theocracies that have one goal. To fight the West. We could all be Scientologists. Doesn't matter. 9/11 still happens.
 
[quote name='dabamus']After spending 2-3 hours reading this entire thread,... [/QUOTE]

After reading for 2.5 hours, that's ALL the insight you have gained??? Hmmm... do you gain most your knowledge from threads or books? No need to answer that. It's pretty obvious...
 
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[quote name='berzirk']
Unfortunately, (and doh, here is the part you'll eat up) through societal influence, many of these immigrant's children, and some first generation Muslims think that in order to fit in, they need to be a rap video character. N**** this and that, drinking, smoking weed, thinking they're little gang bangers. Again, all groups have their degenerates, but I'm not a member of all groups, so my group's shortcomings bother me the most.

So believe me, the experience and understanding is there. There are systemic forces at play both within the Muslim communities, and from those who hold bigoted opinions and factual inaccuries as truths.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm... just for the record, I grew up Muslim but do not indulge in the opiate of religion. I do not believe in religion but unfortunately, get dragged into the religious stereotyping that goes on here and witness it thrust upon the new societal scapegoat. That being said, I will address the above comment.

I've heard that thought before. It is so gosh darned oversimplistic and does not indicate a systemic understanding of race/racism/social conditioning in the USA. Even though your group's "shortcomings" (ie parking, cussing, etc) bother you, you might do well to tie it into the overall big picture of race in America and consider the history of other minority groups. You will then see a consistent trend which today's Islamophobia is a part of. I would highly recommend that you read the book "Orientalism" by Edward Said. And I'd ask that you ponder dohdough's reply at length as he really gets down to the core of the issue.
 
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