The Official 2007/2008 NBA thread

[quote name='dafoomie']KG: 28 points, 8 rebounds, made a number of clutch shots late
Pierce: Outstanding defense on Lebron
Allen: Didn't show up, didn't matter

Lebron: 12 points, 10 turnovers, 2 for 18 shooting.[/quote]

The Celtics did a helluva job on LeBron and did what they needed to do to squeak away with a win.

I was suprised LeBron didn't kill Sczerbiak for missing all those wide open shots.

Going to be an interesting series, I like KG, I really do, it's just I feel like he can do a lot more. I understand he's an unselfish player, but sometimes he's just gotta say fuck it and dominate Ben Wallace aka an empty body.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']Yah, I dont know. I kinda think boston is in trouble. The cavs only lost by 4 while their superstar player missed everything.

What happens if Bron Bron turns it on?

Man is it me or is the best team in the east having a lot of trouble this play off run?[/quote]

I think they will have a very hard time in the playoffs.
Before the win last series the "big 3" had something like 4 playoff series wins between them. Adding Sam Cassell really helped out on the veteran front but I feel that the pressure will get to them either in this series or in the conference finals and they will bow out.
Bron did shoot poorly but so did Pierce and Allen all in all I think game 1 was a taste of things to come. Close games all series. Boston got a 20 point a game home court boost against ATL if the Cavs can steal one in Boston I don't think the Celtics will get it back (call it daemons from the first series).
Cavs in 6
 
Paul deserved MVP this season, but he has plenty of years left. He will get it soon enough. Kobe deserved MVP long ago and its nice that he finally got one. Although he may not really deserve it this year (IMO) he deserves at least one MVP.
 
[quote name='ananag112']Paul deserved MVP this season, but he has plenty of years left. He will get it soon enough. Kobe deserved MVP long ago and its nice that he finally got one. Although he may not really deserve it this year (IMO) he deserves at least one MVP.[/quote]

I agree but thats such a cop out.

The MVP award is based on ONE YEAR. Its the MVP be for THAT season and that season alone. It doesnt matter what anyone does the year before is that year. If bron bron sucks next year and only scores 5 a game...you cant give him a MVP for his 06 campaign. It cant work that way.

Kobe did deserve a mvp....he should have gotten it a while ago. But just beacuse he should have had one and paul still has time to get one is laughable as a reason to go give him his credit.

We might as well toss all stats out the window and just award it by popularity then. If we were going by that I would say KG aka Mr. Triple Double probably deserves 2 or 3 of them himself.

Why keep stats at all if we are not going to use them for giving out awards? Give Yao an MVP for being the most popular player based on all the Chinese loving him.


Its sad beacuse most sports idiot will completely forget about this history making once and a life time season by Chris Paul. There will most likely never be a season like Chris Paul for another 60 years. And its all going to go down the tubes because you didnt reward him for his efforts. It completely sad from a sports fans view. Because so many people will miss out on the once and a lifetime chance to see this guy.
 
All I'll say is this...

They need to take the V out of MVP.

It's a subjective award, but when you start talking valuable, a lot of people think about who means the most to their team instead of who is the best player for the year. I think it should be whoever had the most outstanding individual year (MOP), not whose team has the best record. I don't have a problem with Kobe winning, I think he and Paul were the only two that were really deserving of the award this year, but I was really surprised as the difference in 1st place votes between Kobe and Paul.

Chris Paul has become far better than I ever thought he would be. I thought he would be great, but he has taken it to another level. If you look at the best point guard in the last 15 years, three stand out...Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, and John Stockton. As great as they were, they all had deficiencies in their games. Kidd didn't shoot well, Nash was a subpar deffender, John Stockton didn't have great quickness. Just looking at Chris Paul today, I can't find any glaring holes in his overall game. He can pass and defend like Kidd in his prime, he can run an offense like clockwork and score like Nash, and he has the toughness and durability of John Stockton. The only person in the league that is even remotely close to Paul as a PG is Deron Williams IMO and even then it is a distant second. Granted Jason Kidd is aging, but I have never in my life seen anyone totally own Jason Kidd like Chris Paul did this year.

Part of the reason Paul hasn't gotten the recognition of other MVP candidates is the market he plays in. Not many people have had a chance to see Hornets games. Like every MVP award in any sport, no one sees every game that an MVP candidate has played and a lot of the voting is based on reputation as much as anything. Steve Nash is the exception to that, but he benefitted from playing on a team with a high profile in television.

Personally, I would have voted Chris Paul, but I have a feeling these playoffs are going to be CP3's coming out party.

Also, I know it is a regular season award, but I really don't like the MVP being announced in the middle of the playoffs.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']All I'll say is this...

They need to take the V out of MVP.

It's a subjective award, but when you start talking valuable, a lot of people think about who means the most to their team instead of who is the best player for the year. I think it should be whoever had the most outstanding individual year (MOP), not whose team has the best record. I don't have a problem with Kobe winning, I think he and Paul were the only two that were really deserving of the award this year, but I was really surprised as the difference in 1st place votes between Kobe and Paul.

Chris Paul has become far better than I ever thought he would be. I thought he would be great, but he has taken it to another level. If you look at the best point guard in the last 15 years, three stand out...Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, and John Stockton. As great as they were, they all had deficiencies in their games. Kidd didn't shoot well, Nash was a subpar deffender, John Stockton didn't have great quickness. Just looking at Chris Paul today, I can't find any glaring holes in his overall game. He can pass and defend like Kidd in his prime, he can run an offense like clockwork and score like Nash, and he has the toughness and durability of John Stockton. The only person in the league that is even remotely close to Paul as a PG is Deron Williams IMO and even then it is a distant second. Granted Jason Kidd is aging, but I have never in my life seen anyone totally own Jason Kidd like Chris Paul did this year.

Part of the reason Paul hasn't gotten the recognition of other MVP candidates is the market he plays in. Not many people have had a chance to see Hornets games. Like every MVP award in any sport, no one sees every game that an MVP candidate has played and a lot of the voting is based on reputation as much as anything. Steve Nash is the exception to that, but he benefitted from playing on a team with a high profile in television.

Personally, I would have voted Chris Paul, but I have a feeling these playoffs are going to be CP3's coming out party.

Also, I know it is a regular season award, but I really don't like the MVP being announced in the middle of the playoffs.[/quote]

Thats a great point GNK. And the exact reason why I think the MVP award is backwards. Like you said. Chris Paul simply is the best player in the league. So much so its almost like a created guy that a 12 year old would make in a video game. 99 in everything. Taking the best traits out of every known point guard in the history of the NBA and putting them together.

And its really true in the fact that if CP3 played for a more popular team he would have won hands down. But isnt this why we have a so called panel of experts? Because the casual fan doesnt watch all the games of all the teams. Isnt this why we have voting from all these idiot who say that are experts in the NBA?

Its just sad on all levels. This year was the perfect time to reward and put a class act guy on a pedestal. A guy who has no rape scandals, no hit and runs, no DUI. The guy is nothing but a hard worker and a young leader....the perfect person to include in the new face of the NBA yet they piss it all away and give it to a guy like kobe. He is a guy that instead of making stupid ass rules like player have to were suits to the NBA games you can say hey kids...look at CP3. Look what happens when you work hard and stay clean.

Like I said before....its simply the American way at its best. Its never enough to simply be a good class act who works hard. To get any recognition you have to be the guy who punches a stripper in the face or runs over a guy in the street or is hopped up on steroids.

What more did you want this guy do to?
 
[quote name='ananag112']Paul deserved MVP this season, but he has plenty of years left. He will get it soon enough. Kobe deserved MVP long ago and its nice that he finally got one. Although he may not really deserve it this year (IMO) he deserves at least one MVP.[/quote]

So ten years from now when Chris Paul has no MVPs and has deserved several which deserving player will the voters steal one from to give to Paul to make up for this? It's a vicious cycle.
 
[quote name='Filbert']So ten years from now when Chris Paul has no MVPs and has deserved several which deserving player will the voters steal one from to give to Paul to make up for this? It's a vicious cycle.[/quote]

Exactly. The, he deserved it because of how he played 5 years ago argument is charles barkley turrable.
 
[quote name='MorPhiend']Wow guys, we have an actual Laker on the board here.

[/quote]

That has to be one of the stupidest retorts I have heard on this board, this side of one of slidecage's weird threads. Come on, you know what I meant. I root for the Lakers. I'm with them, not against them. I hope we, yes we, win the championship. I'm not even sure how I could rephrase that in another manner. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing the Hornets win either as I like them as well.

Hey hiccup. I think I remember you now that I see your title under your name. Weren't you that little baby who made a thread about two or three years ago whining about how everyone hates you and they criticize your posts and such? You know, I really can't see why...

If I'm mistaken on the identity of the person, I'm sorry. But the following statement still applies to you. Grow up. Seriously. Just grow up and enjoy the sport instead of freaking out that everyone doesn't fudgepack your precious little team like you do. I already said that I admire the Lakers and they did a good job. Just cut out your bitching already.
Click to expand...

First off, I've never created a thread saying that everyone hates me or everyone hates my posts. The reason for the title under my name is inside joke to certain CAGs/CAG/Scorch since he would always catch me in a fuck up by me doing a repost of some topic. It's a joke. Also, I enjoy competition. Stop whining acting childish. Nothing wrong with a competitive rivalry. I want to see my team win and play to their ability in doing so. I'm not watching it for a ballet. I enjoy the sport, but I enjoy it more so when my team wins and is a good team. I posted in this thread expecting to have a so-so year for the Lakers in the beginning, but I'm a fan in good times and in bad. If you don't like it, then so what. That's how I'm a grown up about it. Teams and fans do this for their favored team and to each other. Yankees rag on Red Sox and vice versa. Duke on UNC, USC on UCLA, LA and Boston/Sacramento/San Antonio/Miami (when Shaq was there)/most of the league. I could care less if nobody else "fudgepacks" (your word not mine, so let's be clear on that) my team. They can have their own teams. Some like Boston, others San Antonio, Phoenix, Utah etc., it's just that I'm going to stand up for my team and cheer them on as I would expect others to do likewise.

Shit rag on me if you want. I don't care, I know you like Utah, but that's your choice.
 
[quote name='hiccupleftovers']Points.[/quote]

I am not ragging on you hiccup its actually to the person who was bashing you. But lets all try to keep this NBA'ish and if we are going to bash someone at least bash them for being ignorant of actual NBA knowledge.

Like BigSpoonyBard dumbass argument that Kobe and CP3 are the "a wash" (which apparently means they are even) even though CP3 has vastly superior stats and has broken NBA history this year.

I hate casual fans who try to make half ass arguments for their favorite players.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']I am not ragging on you hiccup its actually to the person who was bashing you. But lets all try to keep this NBA'ish and if we are going to bash someone at least bash them for being ignorant of actual NBA knowledge.

Like BigSpoonyBard dumbass argument that Kobe and CP3 are the "a wash" (which apparently means they are even) even though CP3 has vastly superior stats and has broken NBA history this year.

I hate casual fans who try to make half ass arguments for their favorite players.[/quote]

No problem. Too bad I missed the Detroit/orlando game. I hear Orlando was great. Lakers look nice tonight so far through the 3rd. I can acknowledge why CP3 was more deserving of the MVP, but in that same light, I understand why Kobe received it. Still, in that same respect, I can't believe that Steve Nash received the MVP multiple times (once alright, but his couple...that was just egregious).
 
NBA teams need to stop fouling at the end of the game when everyone knows there is no chance they are coming back.
 
[quote name='Dynasty1756']The Lakers are doing a "FABULOUS" Job against the Utah Jazz...

They are 2-0 in the series against Utah and just won tonight 120-110 :bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:[/QUOTE]

I just hope the Lakers get back a healthy Ariza soon.
 
[quote name='ValkyrieVF-1S']I just hope the Lakers get back a healthy Ariza soon.[/quote]

And let's not forget about Bynum. Ariza is good, but he needs time to be worked back in after an extended off time and with the changes that the Lakers have made. Actually, how are we not over the limit for players on a team? We have Mbenga, Mihm, funky dude with the dreads that plays for crap (Ira Newbel I believe), Coby Karl, etc. I'd keep Coby Karl and get the rest. I think Karl has shown that he can play, the rest I'd either cut, dump, or drop.
 
[quote name='hiccupleftovers']And let's not forget about Bynum. Ariza is good, but he needs time to be worked back in after an extended off time and with the changes that the Lakers have made. Actually, how are we not over the limit for players on a team? We have Mbenga, Mihm, funky dude with the dreads that plays for crap (Ira Newbel I believe), Coby Karl, etc. I'd keep Coby Karl and get the rest. I think Karl has shown that he can play, the rest I'd either cut, dump, or drop.[/QUOTE]

Umm Bynum is not coming back this season, he is still feeling pain in his knee. I think he might have exploratory surgery soon. And why wouldn't you want Mbenga? He is a big body that can still run, get rebounds, and gives the Lakers 6 more fouls. His offense has improved a lot lately too. Didn't you see him play against Denver when Turiaf was sick? He is way better than buttefinger Brown.
 
I will tell you this though. Living by Detroit I really want to Pistons to lose so they will finally have to balls to bust up this team.

I am really sick of the half on half off play that the pistons do every night.
 
[quote name='ValkyrieVF-1S']Umm Bynum is not coming back this season, he is still feeling pain in his knee. I think he might have exploratory surgery soon. And why wouldn't you want Mbenga? He is a big body that can still run, get rebounds, and gives the Lakers 6 more fouls. His offense has improved a lot lately too. Didn't you see him play against Denver when Turiaf was sick? He is way better than buttefinger Brown.[/quote]

No doubt he's better than "Stone Hands" Brown, but I don't see him as offensive threat, and more as you put it, a big body to give 6 fouls. He isn't that great at rebounds, but I guess I can give you that he can run. Also, you haven't really compared his play to a credible team that plays defense. If you're a player on a decent team, then Denver can make anyone shine. I hadn't heard the recent updates on Bynum, by the way. All I had heard was there might be some chance he'd come and show up for the playoffs, but might have a small role as he would still need to be reintroduced to the line up. I like this wait and see approach the Lakers are taking, though. It's the right way to do it and ensures he gets healthy. He's still young and was playing phenomenally this season. Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I like Turiaf's play and his hustle. He's a solid player. Mihm is far too questionable and doesn't have a good horizontal gait because of the surgery to his ankle. I'd get rid of him while he still has some value. Mbenga could be used to sweeten a deal. He mostly goes from place to place anyway. Right the Lakers have superb starters and a great bench overall. Farmar is the future as a Laker point guard, and him being mentored under Derek Fisher is a great asset that will definitely pay in years to come. Luke Walton gives you a solid game most nights. Turiaf is a great piece of heart of the team. I liked Ariza when I saw him play. I would personally keep Sasha, but maybe trade Vlad in some type of deal with Mbenga and/or Mihm and probably Ira Newbel.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']I am not ragging on you hiccup its actually to the person who was bashing you. But lets all try to keep this NBA'ish and if we are going to bash someone at least bash them for being ignorant of actual NBA knowledge.

Like BigSpoonyBard dumbass argument that Kobe and CP3 are the "a wash" (which apparently means they are even) even though CP3 has vastly superior stats and has broken NBA history this year.

I hate casual fans who try to make half ass arguments for their favorite players.[/quote]

I was unaware that you were the only only "real" NBA fan on CAG and the ultimate arbiter of basketball opinion. I've probably been watching basketball longer than you've been alive. You really need to get off your high horse and relax a bit. Unless you're Chris Paul himself, I'm not sure why you would be so angry over this.

Is the MVP about stats or is it about value to the team? You seem to be going back and forth on that one. My argument that CP and Kobe are a wash meant that both are superstars who drive their team and provide what their respective teams need at crucial points in games.

Whether CP beat Kobe in x number of statistical categories is hardly an accurate measurement of whether or not better CP is than Kobe. But, if you want to get into statistics, did you actually look at the stats? CP's 3pt% is eight tenths of a percent better than Kobe's. That's right, not even a full percentage point. I hardly consider that a sound thumping. CP's FG% is a whopping 3% better than Kobe's: 48.8% to 45.9% (though Kobe took nearly 3 more FGA per game).

And I would like to point out that it is highly unlikely you will see someone average 10+ assists in the triangle offense. Being a real NBA fan, you would know that everyone in the triangle needs to be a passer, and that a pass will often lead to another pass for a better shot. Kobe led the Lakers in assists this season. The offensive system doesn't necessarily lend itself to one pass and score opportunities, where New Orleans' offense thrive on drive and kick (or lob), where whoever catches a CP pass is going to shoot.

And yes, doing something historical is nice, but again, it's statistics. Wilt scored 100 points in a game, which no one else has done, but he didn't win the MVP that season. Bill Russell won it, even though Wilt beat him in FG%, FT%, Reb, and Pts. Interestingly, Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double that year (something no one else has ever done, remember), but he didn't win it either.

But in all reality, the MVP isn't awarded based on stats. Sure, they can help spur an argument, but I don't think they're the top thing when it comes to the voters. A lot of people were saying they would wait to see which team won the West. Apparently, leading your team to the #1 seed holds some value. Hey, the vast majority of "experts" chose Kobe Bryant first and CP second. Another large chunk chose CP first and Kobe second. Had New Orleans finished first, I think CP would have won the MVP. They both had fantastic seasons. The voters went with the guy who took his team to #1.
 
[quote name='hiccupleftovers']No doubt he's better than "Stone Hands" Brown, but I don't see him as offensive threat, and more as you put it, a big body to give 6 fouls. He isn't that great at rebounds, but I guess I can give you that he can run. Also, you haven't really compared his play to a credible team that plays defense. If you're a player on a decent team, then Denver can make anyone shine. I hadn't heard the recent updates on Bynum, by the way. All I had heard was there might be some chance he'd come and show up for the playoffs, but might have a small role as he would still need to be reintroduced to the line up. I like this wait and see approach the Lakers are taking, though. It's the right way to do it and ensures he gets healthy. He's still young and was playing phenomenally this season. Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I like Turiaf's play and his hustle. He's a solid player. Mihm is far too questionable and doesn't have a good horizontal gait because of the surgery to his ankle. I'd get rid of him while he still has some value. Mbenga could be used to sweeten a deal. He mostly goes from place to place anyway. Right the Lakers have superb starters and a great bench overall. Farmar is the future as a Laker point guard, and him being mentored under Derek Fisher is a great asset that will definitely pay in years to come. Luke Walton gives you a solid game most nights. Turiaf is a great piece of heart of the team. I liked Ariza when I saw him play. I would personally keep Sasha, but maybe trade Vlad in some type of deal with Mbenga and/or Mihm and probably Ira Newbel.[/QUOTE]

Sure it would be nice to have Bynum back in the line up, but I still don't see it happening, especially with the Lakers medical staff. Look at Luke Walton, ever since his injury last season he hasn't really been the same. Sure he played well against the Nuggets, but he was really bad during the regular season. I would rather trade Luke and Vlad and get another decent SF to play behind Ariza, but they have bad contracts. I am pretty sure Mbenga and Newble are off the books after this season, but I wouldn't mind signing Mbenga again because he would be cheap to sign. He has improved throughout the season with the Lakers since he joined the team, meaning less turnovers, he can make blocks, and he has shown that he can score when he has an opportunity (doesn't fumble the ball like Kwame). Mbenga is like Turiaf, he plays with hustle, and doesn't give up, which is why I think he is an asset to the Lakers. So I think he has the potential to become a solid backup for Bynum. I don't see them signing Newble again, especially if Ariza can stay healthy. Lakers will probably get rid of Coby Karl too because they don't need him because of Sasha.


The Lakers priorities this summer are to resign Sasha, Turiaf, and Bynum (Don't know if the Lakers are going to give him the max if there is no improvement on his knee this summer). And I have no idea what the Lakers are going to do with Lamar, because I have a feeling he might be offered a bigger contract with other teams once he is available (it really does depend how well he plays for the rest of the playoffs). I really hope he is willing to take a pay cut and stay with the team.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']

Whether CP beat Kobe in x number of statistical categories is hardly an accurate measurement of whether or not better CP is than Kobe.[/quote]


That all I had to read up to. Stats dont matter now? You cant even attempt to make a logical debate with a guy who thinks stats dont matter. Its a waste of time.

Honestly. "You can measure how good a player is based on stats." What the fuck? I guess we should go by shoe size then. I am not even going to waste time talking to a guy even trying to make a such an idiotic claim.
 
I'm starting to think that game 1 will end up being the closest the Cavaliers get to winning one in Boston. They'll win at home, but that won't be enough.
 
[quote name='Filbert']I'm starting to think that game 1 will end up being the closest the Cavaliers get to winning one in Boston. They'll win at home, but that won't be enough.[/QUOTE]

I dunno I don't see Lebron spinning his wheel like this for too much longer. I love the Celts defense and am just digging how Rondo is playing right now
 
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[quote name='Soodmeg']That all I had to read up to. Stats dont matter now? You cant even attempt to make a logical debate with a guy who thinks stats dont matter. Its a waste of time.

Honestly. "You can measure how good a player is based on stats." What the fuck? I guess we should go by shoe size then. I am not even going to waste time talking to a guy even trying to make a such an idiotic claim.[/quote]

I didn't say statistics didn't matter. I said counting how many categories one player had an edge in is rather ridiculous. Obviously, your reading comprehension skills need a little work, which may be why you didn't finish reading my post. If you had, you would have noticed that I broke down the so-called statistical domination you claim Paul has. At the level they are playing at, a few rebounds or a couple percentage points doesn't mean one guy is worlds ahead of another. If anyone is failing at logic, it's you.

Anytime I say something, all you can do is say, "You're a fucking moron." Not exactly a good debate strategy. I've taken the time to provide historical examples where statistics and historic accomplishments didn't equal an MVP, which has been the basis for your argument. I've never said that Paul didn't deserve the award. I've said that the decision to give Kobe the award is understandable and not as outlandish as you are trying to make it out to be.
 
[quote name='ValkyrieVF-1S']Umm Bynum is not coming back this season, he is still feeling pain in his knee. I think he might have exploratory surgery soon. And why wouldn't you want Mbenga? He is a big body that can still run, get rebounds, and gives the Lakers 6 more fouls. His offense has improved a lot lately too. Didn't you see him play against Denver when Turiaf was sick? He is way better than buttefinger Brown.[/quote]

M. Benga is actually not bad when I watched him in the paint bringing down rebounds and taking feeds from Kobe to slam it home.

K. Brown was a joke to the Lakers! I don't know why the Lakers got him in the 1st place.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']bad points.[/quote]

Sigh.Not this again. I am not in the business to take away from a player. Which is exactly what you are trying to do and is the most annoying thing anyone does when talking about sports. Once you go down the road of.."well this stat doesnt really matter, this other stat doesnt mean much...blah blah blah." Then the conversation just because useless.

All I can do is look at his stats and see that he leads the league in more stats than anyone else. If kobe had better stats than everyone else than I would say give him the mvp. But he didnt. Chris Paul did.

Did you not read the article?

"To summarize, Paul shoots better, creates 12% more points per game, and only generates 0.9 fewer possessions per game than Bryant."

Translation...he simply was better than Kobe this year. You start talking about "Well they play the triangle offense." I cant fucking control what offense they run, what defense they do, how much hustle they have. All I can do as a fan is look at the stats. All you are doing is making excuse that no but a nba coach can control. Again if you want to open that box up. Darko Milichic (sp) should have won rookie of the year....but Larry Brown didnt play him enough so he didnt have a fair chance.

But if you go down the road of "Meh, FG% doesnt mean that much, A few rebounds dont mean much, Steals dont mean much" Then ever single player in the NBA is an exact carbon copy of each other.

The difference between Tim Ducan and Mark Madsen is Tim puts up vastly better numbers. "Hell, Tim doesnt get that many more rebounds than Madsen, FG% is that much better. Plus Mark Madsen as just as many rings has Tim."

Bottom line. You simply can not go down the road of could have would have should have..if only they did...well they play this those other guys play that. Lets do everything expect look at the factual stats.

In my time as a sports fan I know that you simply can not talk to a guy who wants to go down that road. A guy who wants to prove his point by taking away any and all facts. You just cant do it.


(also I am ignoring your historical stuff. That goes down a different role that is equally stupid. I can say that Babe Ruth is the greatest baseball player of all time. But you cant know that because in that era blacks were not allowed to play. Different era means different rules. Basketball was very different then and now. I am talking about now......pfft.)
 
Just in case anyone is confused at what I am saying here is an example.

I am saying. Chris Paul is the best passer in the league.

Not because I want him to be...not because I think he is. But because he leads the league in assist. Bottom line.


Here is what you are doing spoony.

Chris Paul is the best passer in the league.

"Well he isnt that great of a passer. He only has 1 more assist than ______ that not really a big deal. Plus ____ team doesnt run the pick and roll so he doesnt get enough looks to be better.
 
So back to actually basketball.

Cavs are look just plain bad. Bron Bron simply needs more player around him. Its embarrassing to watch Bron Bron and Big Z take on the entire Boston team by themselves.

Chris Paul is killing the spurs once again. Spurs have switched their defense 4 or 5 times, put 4 or 5 different players on him and he literally just killing them. I dont think I have ever seen a team of the Spurs caliber look so completely confused and lost about how to stop one guy.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']Sigh.Not this again. I am not in the business to take away from a player. Which is exactly what you are trying to do and is the most annoying thing anyone does when talking about sports. Once you go down the road of.."well this stat doesnt really matter, this other stat doesnt mean much...blah blah blah." Then the conversation just because useless.

All I can do is look at his stats and see that he leads the league in more stats than anyone else. If kobe had better stats than everyone else than I would say give him the mvp. But he didnt. Chris Paul did.

Did you not read the article?

"To summarize, Paul shoots better, creates 12% more points per game, and only generates 0.9 fewer possessions per game than Bryant."

Translation...he simply was better than Kobe this year. You start talking about "Well they play the triangle offense." I cant fucking control what offense they run, what defense they do, how much hustle they have. All I can do as a fan is look at the stats. All you are doing is making excuse that no but a nba coach can control. Again if you want to open that box up. Darko Milichic (sp) should have won rookie of the year....but Larry Brown didnt play him enough so he didnt have a fair chance.

But if you go down the road of "Meh, FG% doesnt mean that much, A few rebounds dont mean much, Steals dont mean much" Then ever single player in the NBA is an exact carbon copy of each other.

The difference between Tim Ducan and Mark Madsen is Tim puts up vastly better numbers. "Hell, Tim doesnt get that many more rebounds than Madsen, FG% is that much better. Plus Mark Madsen as just as many rings has Tim."

Bottom line. You simply can not go down the road of could have would have should have..if only they did...well they play this those other guys play that. Lets do everything expect look at the factual stats.

In my time as a sports fan I know that you simply can not talk to a guy who wants to go down that road. A guy who wants to prove his point by taking away any and all facts. You just cant do it.


(also I am ignoring your historical stuff. That goes down a different role that is equally stupid. I can say that Babe Ruth is the greatest baseball player of all time. But you cant know that because in that era blacks were not allowed to play. Different era means different rules. Basketball was very different then and now. I am talking about now......pfft.)[/quote]

That's funny, because I did the exact opposite of what you have just said. At no point did I say such and such a statistic didn't matter. But based on your logic, if a different player led the league in each statistical category, it'd be a pretty tough vote for MVP, wouldn't it? Would you give it to the scoring leader? The assist leader? My point was that they both put up very good numbers. And if you base the MVP solely on statistics, you could have a very skewed MVP. A superstar puts up superstar statistics. I'm not talking about the difference between Mark Madsen and Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan puts up star numbers. So does KG. Their statistics aren't exactly even, based partly on what their teams need from them. Does that mean one is tremendously better than the other? Stop being so reductionist.

It's obvious that you can't use logic when debating this type of issue. You haven't actually refuted any of my points. All you say is that they are dumb.

And my historical argument isn't about player x being greater than player y. It was about 2 superstar players who did historical things not winning the MVP to a star who did nothing more than win day in and day out. So again, you didn't actually counter my point.
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']Just in case anyone is confused at what I am saying here is an example.

I am saying. Chris Paul is the best passer in the league.

Not because I want him to be...not because I think he is. But because he leads the league in assist. Bottom line.


Here is what you are doing spoony.

Chris Paul is the best passer in the league.

"Well he isnt that great of a passer. He only has 1 more assist than ______ that not really a big deal. Plus ____ team doesnt run the pick and roll so he doesnt get enough looks to be better.[/quote]

When did I say anything resembling such a poor argument? Did I ever say he wasn't the best passer in the league? Did I ever say assists don't matter? Nope. I think he and Steve Nash are the best at putting the ball where it needs to be. I think Paul is one of the best players the league has had in the last decade. Man up and use some actual logic.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']

Whether CP beat Kobe in x number of statistical categories is hardly an accurate measurement of whether or not better CP is than Kobe.[/quote]

What you said right here. CP having better stats in more categories than Kobe is hardly an accurate of measurement of whether CP is better than Kobe.

How am I saying anything else? Your quote says.....using stats is a horrific way to tell if one player is better than another.

I say...What the fuck are you talking about...stats are pretty much the only way to tell if one player is better than another. Then you started going off about his stats are not that much better. I say.....but they are still better.


What dont you understand.

EDIT: By the way...if anyone is actually watching the Hornets game which I doubt because the Hornets are not high class enough for casual fans to watch. You would have just seen Chris Paul at 6 foot nothing score on Tim 6 foot 11 Ducan in the low post. Again.....in order to accurately talk about this you might want to actually seen him play. 22 points at half for a 3rd year player.
 
C'mon Hornets, don't give up! I root for underdogs!

Btw, who caught the game last night?

I was surprised at Deron Williams draining all those 3's at the end, I was starting to get a little worried, the guy was pulling a Joe Johnson with the way he was playing in the paint.
 
I'd say after the past two game's, LeBron has his ticket booked to New Jersey for 2010. After his years in the league this is the best you can do? I swear everytime I look at LeBron he looks like he's going to kill Sczerbea;hsd;asdiak. He's got 4 guys on him, and their missing wide open shots.

The Celtics are playing good defense, but my god how many open jumpers can West/Sczerbiak/Pavlovic/Gibson miss?
 
[quote name='Inf^Shini']C'mon Hornets, don't give up! I root for underdogs!

Btw, who caught the game last night?

I was surprised at Deron Williams draining all those 3's at the end, I was starting to get a little worried, the guy was pulling a Joe Johnson with the way he was playing in the paint.[/quote]

deron is amazing...when the game doesnt matter :rofl:
 
[quote name='ph33r m3']I'd say after the past two game's, LeBron has his ticket booked to New Jersey for 2010. After his years in the league this is the best you can do? I swear everytime I look at LeBron he looks like he's going to kill Sczerbea;hsd;asdiak. He's got 4 guys on him, and their missing wide open shots.

The Celtics are playing good defense, but my god how many open jumpers can West/Sczerbiak/Pavlovic/Gibson miss?[/quote]

You speak the truth dead elmo.

Cavs are a disgrace. You got one guy simply willing your entire franchise to with only Big Z to help. I mean big Z is a great player but not a super star.

Ugh...and the worst of it is they have all these guys locked in contracts. How are you going to get rid of them for better players?
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']So back to actually basketball.

Cavs are look just plain bad. Bron Bron simply needs more player around him. Its embarrassing to watch Bron Bron and Big Z take on the entire Boston team by themselves.

Chris Paul is killing the spurs once again. Spurs have switched their defense 4 or 5 times, put 4 or 5 different players on him and he literally just killing them. I dont think I have ever seen a team of the Spurs caliber look so completely confused and lost about how to stop one guy.[/QUOTE]
His Highness is the problem right now... If the reputation calls weren't getting him to the line, he'd have no points at all.

Its not just his teammates that are missing easy shots... LeBron has been missing layups. Though you have to give the Celtics credit, they are absolutely smothering him every time he gets the ball. Which leads to a 2nd problem... Coaching isn't doing enough. They need to setup plays where LeBron is moving without the ball, but a lot of the time, he's the with the ball trying to make things happen by himself.
 
[quote name='Nelo Ice']deron is amazing...when the game doesnt matter :rofl:[/quote]
Haha, he did give em' a run for their money in the 2nd Half though. They pulled within 4 and I was like "All right now, bump up the lead again". Did you catch the pass around the Jazz defender's head from Kobe to Gasol? That was fun to watch in replay :D

Gasol needs to pick up his game though, he's just kinda been sitting around the hoop throwin' it up and missing some pretty easy shots. Fisher surprised me and just had the crowd roaring with him sinking 3's. I loved that last one he made from up top :whee:
 
[quote name='ph33r m3']I'd say after the past two game's, LeBron has his ticket booked to New Jersey for 2010. After his years in the league this is the best you can do? I swear everytime I look at LeBron he looks like he's going to kill Sczerbea;hsd;asdiak. He's got 4 guys on him, and their missing wide open shots.

The Celtics are playing good defense, but my god how many open jumpers can West/Sczerbiak/Pavlovic/Gibson miss?[/quote]

I didn't get to see the whole game (Trig final) but from what I did see there weren't that many open shots. Certainly not like some open looks the Celts were getting. When a defender is within 5 feet and closing I don't consider that an open shot.

As for the constant rumors that LeBron is leaving Cleveland, I just don't understand them. First of all, the Cavs are his team, they're built around him, look to him to be a leader, and rely on him as the point-forward of sorts. If anything, when they don't succeed it's on him.

Secondly, if it's money he's after why would he leave. The Cavaliers are currently paying him max (or it is starting next season, I don't remember) and no other team can pay him more. The Cavaliers also go all out with the emeneties as far as I understand.

Thridly, if you think he'll already leave to go ring chasing I ask you, what other team that has the cap room to sign him stands a better chance of winning a ring that the Cavaliers who went to the Finals last season? As of right now, not one.

Sure LeBron might leave one day, but it'll only happen if the Cavaliers management royally screws up (which won't happen, LeBron is worth more to them in Cleveland and happy than he'll ever cost them), or if he goes ring chasing after many seasons. So I don't think it will happen for a long while.

[quote name='Soodmeg']Ugh...and the worst of it is they have all these guys locked in contracts. How are you going to get rid of them for better players?[/quote]

Actually, that big trade this year did more to help the Cavaliers on that front than on the court. I think they'll have 5 or 6 players on their last year or off the books in the next two years.

[quote name='dafoomie']His Highness is the problem right now... If the reputation calls weren't getting him to the line, he'd have no points at all.

Its not just his teammates that are missing easy shots... LeBron has been missing layups. Though you have to give the Celtics credit, they are absolutely smothering him every time he gets the ball. Which leads to a 2nd problem... Coaching isn't doing enough. They need to setup plays where LeBron is moving without the ball, but a lot of the time, he's the with the ball trying to make things happen by himself.[/quote]

I agree here. The Celtics are playing good defense. The only way to beat that kind of defense is to shoot the ball well, something that LeBron only does sometimes, and when he does he has games like game 5 of the ECF last season. Until that happens making him a finisher ranther than a initiator is the only option. It's a more viable option with West as a legitimate (but not stellar) PG, but it's an option I fear the Cavaliers have not practiced much or just don't like to do.
 
[quote name='Inf^Shini']Haha, he did give em' a run for their money in the 2nd Half though. They pulled within 4 and I was like "All right now, bump up the lead again". Did you catch the pass around the Jazz defender's head from Kobe to Gasol? That was fun to watch in replay :D

Gasol needs to pick up his game though, he's just kinda been sitting around the hoop throwin' it up and missing some pretty easy shots. Fisher surprised me and just had the crowd roaring with him sinking 3's. I loved that last one he made from up top :whee:[/quote]

i heard about the pass but i dont think i was payin attention when it happened :lol:
gasols been playin fine but yeah he has missed some easy baskets

should be fun to play in utah and of course they need to remember how we beat them DOWN at their own place without gasol :twisted:
 
[quote name='Nelo Ice']i heard about the pass but i dont think i was payin attention when it happened :lol:
gasols been playin fine but yeah he has missed some easy baskets

should be fun to play in utah and of course they need to remember how we beat them DOWN at their own place without gasol :twisted:[/quote]

Well I say that because I know he can play better ;)

As for the plays, they actually highlight both plays I was talking about as well as others, go check it out at the right side of the page
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']What you said right here. CP having better stats in more categories than Kobe is hardly an accurate of measurement of whether CP is better than Kobe.

How am I saying anything else? Your quote says.....using stats is a horrific way to tell if one player is better than another.

I say...What the fuck are you talking about...stats are pretty much the only way to tell if one player is better than another. Then you started going off about his stats are not that much better. I say.....but they are still better.


What dont you understand.

EDIT: By the way...if anyone is actually watching the Hornets game which I doubt because the Hornets are not high class enough for casual fans to watch. You would have just seen Chris Paul at 6 foot nothing score on Tim 6 foot 11 Ducan in the low post. Again.....in order to accurately talk about this you might want to actually seen him play. 22 points at half for a 3rd year player.[/quote]

I doubt there are many people in or around the league would wouldn't say Kobe is the best player in the league, regardless of stats. In fact, they would probably say he's better this year than in any other, even though some of his stats are down a bit.

You seem to be ignoring the actual point of my argument that stats aren't the whole of a player. Players can do things that don't show up in a stat sheet. There's no statistic for clutch shots hit. Your standard box score doesn't cross-reference the statistics of the player your player guarded on each possession. If you ask me, only a casual fan would base his whole argument of which player is better on raw statistics.

And by the way, i did watch the game last night. I've watched every one of the unfortunately few games the Hornets have played on national TV. You know why? Because *gasp!* I think Chris Paul is a fantastic player.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']I doubt there are many people in or around the league would wouldn't say Kobe is the best player in the league, regardless of stats. In fact, they would probably say he's better this year than in any other, even though some of his stats are down a bit.

You seem to be ignoring the actual point of my argument that stats aren't the whole of a player. Players can do things that don't show up in a stat sheet. There's no statistic for clutch shots hit. Your standard box score doesn't cross-reference the statistics of the player your player guarded on each possession. If you ask me, only a casual fan would base his whole argument of which player is better on raw statistics.

And by the way, i did watch the game last night. I've watched every one of the unfortunately few games the Hornets have played on national TV. You know why? Because *gasp!* I think Chris Paul is a fantastic player.[/quote]

Seriously. You have so many gaping holes in your ridiculously argument that you should be embarrassed to even say you know anything about the NBA. I am not ignoring your point...your point is just just...stupid.

Let me school you with 2 simply words.


Reggie. Miller.

Yeah, and since you obviously dont actually follow basketball proved by your just idiotic flailing around I will tell you about him. Reggie Miller is considered the most clutch player in the history of the game. You will be hard press to find anyone who would not list him at least in the top 3 of all time in the "clutchness" factor.

But guess what spoony? How many MVP awards does he have? Lets see. 0 + 0 carry the 5 - the 4 = Hmmmm whats this. fuckING ZERO!

I mean. My god. Do you see how your following the exact thing I said all casual fans do when pressed? Your undermining something like stats...a factual representation of what you do in a game. And trying to make a logical debate with things like..."Just beacuse a player has better stats doesnt mean he is better....." "The stats dont tell the whole story"

And that I agree. The stats dont tell the whole story....but they tell the beginning and the end and half of the middle. Which is more than enough to get a gauge on how good a player is. Mike Miller of the grizz won 6 man of the year with only 13 a game. He put a lot of energy into the game whenever he came in. But that is why he won 6th man.....not MVP.


Do...do you know what Robort Horry is consider clutch? (I dont think he his but he is considered) Where is he on your MVP listings? I could go on and on about clutch players in the NBA. And not just scoring. There are a lot of clutch passers in the league. People who find a way to get the ball to an open man when they need points. (By the way Chris Paul is the best at that(I think). Followed by a little Rajon Rondo)


Honestly spoony. Did you seriously try to say that "clutch" means more than actually stats. Like there was only 1 clutch person in the NBA. Like there is only 1 way to be clutch?

I am eager to see what your next completely off the wall point is. Maybe cheerleading? Mark Madsen would win hands down because he cheered his ass off for those titles. Maybe miles ran. I think Rip would win that. Or many something like a players rebound per game doesnt tell the whole story and Stromile Swift should be considered the best rebounder. Not because he gets a lot of rebounds but because he recorded the highest vertical leap in the NBA. Beacuse as you know..the actually stat doesnt matter is everything around it....and jumping as a lot to do with rebounds right?
 
[quote name='Soodmeg']Seriously. You have so many gaping holes in your ridiculously argument that you should be embarrassed to even say you know anything about the NBA. I am not ignoring your point...your point is just just...stupid.

Let me school you with 2 simply words.


Reggie. Miller.

Yeah, and since you obviously dont actually follow basketball proved by your just idiotic flailing around I will tell you about him. Reggie Miller is considered the most clutch player in the history of the game. You will be hard press to find anyone who would not list him at least in the top 3 of all time in the "clutchness" factor.

But guess what spoony? How many MVP awards does he have? Lets see. 0 + 0 carry the 5 - the 4 = Hmmmm whats this. fuckING ZERO!

I mean. My god. Do you see how your following the exact thing I said all casual fans do when pressed? Your undermining something like stats...a factual representation of what you do in a game. And trying to make a logical debate with things like..."Just beacuse a player has better stats doesnt mean he is better....." "The stats dont tell the whole story"

And that I agree. The stats dont tell the whole story....but they tell the beginning and the end and half of the middle. Which is more than enough to get a gauge on how good a player is. Mike Miller of the grizz won 6 man of the year with only 13 a game. He put a lot of energy into the game whenever he came in. But that is why he won 6th man.....not MVP.


Do...do you know what Robort Horry is consider clutch? (I dont think he his but he is considered) Where is he on your MVP listings? I could go on and on about clutch players in the NBA. And not just scoring. There are a lot of clutch passers in the league. People who find a way to get the ball to an open man when they need points. (By the way Chris Paul is the best at that(I think). Followed by a little Rajon Rondo)


Honestly spoony. Did you seriously try to say that "clutch" means more than actually stats. Like there was only 1 clutch person in the NBA. Like there is only 1 way to be clutch?

I am eager to see what your next completely off the wall point is. Maybe cheerleading? Mark Madsen would win hands down because he cheered his ass off for those titles. Maybe miles ran. I think Rip would win that. Or many something like a players rebound per game doesnt tell the whole story and Stromile Swift should be considered the best rebounder. Not because he gets a lot of rebounds but because he recorded the highest vertical leap in the NBA. Beacuse as you know..the actually stat doesnt matter is everything around it....and jumping as a lot to do with rebounds right?[/quote]

Again, you are being reductionist and taking two words out of my sentences and flying off the handle with them. I didn't say being clutch was more important that statistics, so why are you acting like I did? All I said was that there are more things going on in a game than field goals and assists. You're the one spinning around saying stats are all that matters, then saying yeah, there's more than stats, but stats are all that matters. Your point about Chris Paul being the most clutch passer in the league is EXACTLY what I was referring to. There's no way to count how many of his assists are "clutch." But we all know it happens, which is part of what makes him great. You're running around in circles, trying to bite your own tail.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']His Highness is the problem right now... If the reputation calls weren't getting him to the line, he'd have no points at all.

Its not just his teammates that are missing easy shots... LeBron has been missing layups. Though you have to give the Celtics credit, they are absolutely smothering him every time he gets the ball. Which leads to a 2nd problem... Coaching isn't doing enough. They need to setup plays where LeBron is moving without the ball, but a lot of the time, he's the with the ball trying to make things happen by himself.[/quote]

Tom Thibadeu (Sp?) the assistant coach of the Celtics who's really like the Celtic's Defensive Coordinator deserves a lot of credit, they never double LeBron, they just have a guy backing up Pierce. For example, LeBron gets ball, tries to get past Pierce, he does, then Perkins is right there so another player is in LeBron's way, then if LeBron gets through that he's got KG as well in the low block.

Both coaches are really bad, Rivers, and Mike Brown has gotsta go.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']Again, you are being reductionist and taking two words out of my sentences and flying off the handle with them. I didn't say being clutch was more important that statistics, so why are you acting like I did? All I said was that there are more things going on in a game than field goals and assists. You're the one spinning around saying stats are all that matters, then saying yeah, there's more than stats, but stats are all that matters. Your point about Chris Paul being the most clutch passer in the league is EXACTLY what I was referring to. There's no way to count how many of his assists are "clutch." But we all know it happens, which is part of what makes him great. You're running around in circles, trying to bite your own tail.[/quote]

This is exactly what I said would happen. Every counter point that I completely blow away you come back with a "your not understanding."

I get it. Stats dont mean everything that dont tell the whole story.. But when are talking about who is the best player in one given season they mean a hell of a lot.

Plus you are the one who keeps bringing up all these random topics. You started talking about historical players, you started talking about triangle offense, then you started talking about being clutch. You are completely all over the board. The topic was Chris Paul over Kobe or vice versa. My argument has stayed the same through out this entire time yet yours has changed lanes 4 or 5 different times.

The only way you could even debate it is if Chris Paul played in the East. Then you could make a case for how his stats are inflated due to playing in a weaker division. But he doesnt. he plays in the same division as Kobe...goes against the same level of competition.


Conversation over. Lets get back to actually basketball.:roll:
 
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