The "RAW sucks" and "Angelina Love is an illegal immigrant" wrestling thread.

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Spoilers regarding Jeff Hardy's match on Smackdown this week.

Jeff Hardy finished up with WWE last night as he lost a "Loser Leaves Town" match to World Heavyweight Champion CM Punk at the Smackdown taping, which will air this Friday night.

Officials told Hardy the door will always be open for him to return whenever he wanted and that WWE would be more than happy to promote any of his outside projects. He is planning on performing with his band, Peroxwhy?gen and working on a potential reality series.

Hardy told management he wasn't departing because he unhappy, but rather, he wanted time off from the road in order to do things at his own pace.

Almost everyone feels it is only a matter of when, not if, Hardy would return to WWE. Many wrestlers were comparing his departure from WWE to that of Chris Jericho a few years ago, who went to work on several acting and musical gigs before returning to the company with a prime position.

Many have praised Hardy's last several months of work in WWE as they felt he helped bring CM Punk up to a higher level where he could be seen as a legitimate threat going into his next feud with Undertaker.

Also, it's confirmed that CM Punk will face Undertaker at Breaking Point in a Submission Match.
 
[quote name='cdubb1605']hahahahahahahaha, I had to ask his specific opinion because I'm about 99.8% sure he is the biggest anti-RAW mark in the thread. (Not said with hatred)[/QUOTE]

Nice.:lol: I figure if most people don't like it right now then I'll find it absolutely deplorable. I do see those Raw rebounds and those just confirm my suspicions. The last episode I watched was the first one after Punk lost his first WHC. Except for Punk's run as champ I haven't watched it since HHH was squashing a tag team (Cade & Murdoch?) on his own, finally started getting beat down, Londrick comes out and helps him then he beat the crap out of them. Raw's quality would have to be mid- to late-90's quality in order to get me to watch again at this point. No way am I sitting through 2 hours of Michael Cole for anything less. Smackdown all the way for me. I was still watching before everyone realized it was the "A" show again.:cool:
 
Watched the WCW documentary.

I don't get why people say WWE didn't bury the company in the doc.

They:
- gloss over enormously important parts of the company history
- criticize WCW for the following having non-wrestling writers while WWE has hollywood dudes writing their shows, for having a wrestler serve as a booker and protecting their spot on the card (Nash) while this entire decade has been about Triple H doing the same thing, mocking the booking for not making sense (yeah), talking about WCW stealing talent from WWE (I bet WWE loves your wrestling skills, American Dragon), and putting the title on David Arquette (yeah, well...I can't argue with all of them).

In the end, the documentary just flies through a quarter century of the company that became WCW through the late 1980's through 2000. It offers little in the way of detail, only feint moments of praise, ignores that the criticisms levied at WCW as an organization are applicable to, and have been applicable to, WWE for longer than they're been "WWE."

In general, I feel that the documentary gets away with disguising criticism and revisionist history as "praise" solely because, as viewers, we fully expected the documentary to be harshly, brutally critical. Anything less than complete vindication of the competition could be viewed as a moral victory by WWE - we think of them as noble because they do pull some punches, but still succeed in knocking the company out. Coming from the company who thought fans would like to see a three month feud between Undertaker and Kane fight DDP and Kanyon night in and night out with the latter getting zero offense in EVER, this documentary is a small bit of honor.

But I see through the pretenses.

And they don't discuss the WWE WCW at all in the documentary. WWF buys WCW, and roll credits. No Alliance, no Invasion, no "boy we really fucked that up big time and, just like the goldberh/Hogan match we made fun of thirty minutes ago, left a TON, a TON, a TON of money on the table for that steaming pile of a storyline." No nothing.

The invasion was so bad that WWE didn't even pretend it happened.
 
[quote name='neocisco']Nice.:lol: I figure if most people don't like it right now then I'll find it absolutely deplorable. I do see those Raw rebounds and those just confirm my suspicions. The last episode I watched was the first one after Punk lost his first WHC. Except for Punk's run as champ I haven't watched it since HHH was squashing a tag team (Cade & Murdoch?) on his own, finally started getting beat down, Londrick comes out and helps him then he beat the crap out of them. Raw's quality would have to be mid- to late-90's quality in order to get me to watch again at this point. No way am I sitting through 2 hours of Michael Cole for anything less. Smackdown all the way for me. I was still watching before everyone realized it was the "A" show again.:cool:[/QUOTE]

The biggest problem there for me is not having mynetworkTV so SD just airs here on ABC at 11:35pm on Saturday nights, and having 6 people sharing a very crappy wireless signal makes hulu damn near impossible. I can't argue your point, again here RAW mostly just serves as a way for us to hangout and chill, RAW plays background noise unless there is a match we wanna see, which rarely takes place... Mostly it's ECW and SD for me though.
 
I really really hope Jeremy Borash and Bob Ryder or someone who's still connected with all the WCW guys comes out with a REAL WCW docu, ala hardcore homecoming. Just think of all the guys they could use - JJ, Nash, Big Poppa Pump, Tenay, Booker, Bob Ryder, JB list goes on and on. I grew up on NWA/WCW big time living in Georgia back then, I want to see it treated right.
 
It's not a HORRIBLE documentary, but I think people expected it to be another "Ultimate Warrior" DVD. So when people were saying nice things about WCW, it came off as a genuine shock, which led to people overlooking revisionist history in action.

Unless I missed it, they paint a picture of Cowboy Bill Watts that doesn't point out that he was fired because he of a racist, homophobic tirade.

The RD Reynolds "Death of WCW" book was far more honest, in my view, than this DVD was.
 
The concept of anyone telling the "history" of anything without actually being a part of the company is ridiculous. There's only a small handful of the WWE roster that actually had any experience in WCW, and everything else is hearsay and conjecture from the guys whose jobs it was to bash them in the first place.
 
I actually bought the Death of WCW book at booksamillion, def. a good read. I also think that Nash's shoot interview gave a real good side on how WCW failed
 
I'm in the minority of growing up on WCW, so I'm not sure if I want to see McMahon's adaptation of the Rise and Fall of WCW.
 
Bryan Alvaraz co-wrote that book. Speaking of which...Don Frye reveals his cardio and lifting workout in the newest Observer Radio show - "going to the donut shop, parking in the further spot, walking into the store, and carrying a dozen donuts back to my car." Don Frye is a great man. He also said that Brock is Brad Rheighnans's cousin.
 
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I remember being a person that flipped back and worth from WCW/WWF....and then eventually just went stictly to watching WCW because it came on an hour earlier

....but I remember how I went back to WWF. It was because WCW stars were departing to WWF, and Thunder was becoming just....LAUGHABLE. Everyone was in the NWO....then there was the red NWO which further confused things....and Macho Man was in the NWO which had my head hurting...

And then crazy match finishes and that David guy being the champ and....just too much!


I see TNA like WCW, so I don't even try to watch
 
I didn't get into wrestling till late into the Attitude era. My friend watched a bunch of WCW and got me into it. Then I made some other friends at school that watched WWF , and we watched that as well. We actually kinda tagged teamed it , by me watching Nitro and him watching RAW , so that way if something good started happening on one , we would switch over , and if not then we would keep each other informed of what was going on.

As far as my school friends were concerned , I was one of the only guys that watched WCW up until the end. Despite how bad it got I couldn't stop watching , partly because a lot more guys that I really liked where there.
 
[quote name='pimpster4183']I actually bought the Death of WCW book at booksamillion, def. a good read. I also think that Nash's shoot interview gave a real good side on how WCW failed[/QUOTE]

Those two are good complimentary items to get the bigger picture. The Death of WCW book was good...not fantastic but I'd certainly recommend it over the DVD that just came out. Actually, Bischoff's book is another worthwhile read just to hear his take. Yes, you'll probably occasionally say "oh, bullshit" but he does have some reasonable excplanations for stuff he historically gets raked over the coals for, whether you agree with him or not.

Back to the WCW DVD though...I'm actually rewatching the RAFO ECW disc right now and it was so much better. It makes no sense that they do a DVD on WCW that is an hour and 45 minutes, but do an ECW documentary that clocks in at just under 3 hours. The documentary part of the WCW set should have been two discs, easily.
 
Started watching WWF in 1993 when Hall and Nash jumped ship I began a transition then during the Monday Night Wars I would normally watch whatever segment/match had the guys in it I liked more, I remember the three WTF moments that got me about WCW after I had shifted more into watching just WWF....

1. nWo 2000?
2. Benoit wins title and then he is never seen on WCW again.
3. The entire New Blood v. Millionaires Club thing.

Albeit I know all these things served purposes (I use that word loosely) but those were just a few things that made me wonder what the fuck the people writing that shit were thinking.
 
PWG's annual "Battle Of Los Angeles" tournament will be held November 20th and 21st in Los Angeles, California. No other details have been announced other than the date at this point - for anyone in SoCal looking for the west coast answer to the Ted Petty Invitational, BOLA would be it.
 
I haven't watched the documentary yet, but I don't think it can be faulted for not exposing WWE's own flaws. It isn't called "The Rise and Fall of WCW and WWE's Hypocrisy For Commenting" afterall. I mean really when I want to remember WCW fondly I couldn't care less about whether something like the Invasion is discussed, it was dead by then.

Speaking of the Invasion, I'm still not sure how it could have went much differently than it did. They lacked some of the big name WCW stars and realistically why would Vince make his own company look bad in comparison? Say a new Nitro or whatever would have started after the Invasion like we have ECW today, I would guess it wouldn't have lasted long considering the stigma of being a failed company being around the WCW brand at the time.

I think we're seeing the only real benefit there is from buying WCW, match and documentary DVDs with WCW footage.
 
[quote name='Ultimate Matt X']Speaking of the Invasion, I'm still not sure how it could have went much differently than it did.[/QUOTE]

That's ridiculous. Start with the philosophy of "we have the two most popular wrestling promotions in the world under one roof. Let's make some money" and go from there.

The WWF operated the angle with a storyline of "fuck these guys."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGJQju_2T-k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOynwC5gbJ4

Last three minutes of video #1 is the start of the match.

Watch that wrestling match and I dare you to, with a straight look on your face, ask how the WWF could have operated this angle better.
 
after they took over WCW i was always hoping they would do a cross over and kept it that way..

is there any left from WCW that is even with the WWE anymore.
 
Man, the YokelTaker gimmick was so fuckin' bad.

What did the WWF toys say instead of "Dead Man Inc.?"

I remember the toys had to edit so much of the wrestling content. Billy Gunn was "Mr. B.A." on his tights instead of "Mr. Ass," Balls Mahoney was either "Mahoney" or "B. Mahoney"...

My personal favorite was a WWF action figure of Jeff Jarrett. He used to have a t-shirt that said "Don't Piss Me Off" in his late-WWF tenure. His action figure with that shirt said "Don't Make Me Mad."

On that note, one thing the WWE documentary did get right that very few people criticize was the Russo-era decision to make Jarrett the champion. They dig at Arquette, of course, but they also dig WCW (and TNA as well?) by mocking the company who would choose to make Jeff Jarrett the focal part. Mike Graham says "he broke 6,000 guitars...never drew a dime, but he thought he was the man. And he really thought in his little Tennessee brain that he was bigger and better and would draw more money than Hulk Hogan."
 
[quote name='mykevermin']That's ridiculous. Start with the philosophy of "we have the two most popular wrestling promotions in the world under one roof. Let's make some money" and go from there.

The WWF operated the angle with a storyline of "fuck these guys." [/QUOTE]

exactly.

I'm sure that was what many WCW fans were hoping for as I know I was. But watching the final Nitro I got a sense that it wasn't gonna be pretty. Especially after vince showed shots of various wrestlers making comments that let the fans know not to expect to see them in the WWE.

Waisted opportunity if you as me. Imo, Vince still runs the company this way. What has Christian or Gail Kim done since coming back from TNA? Yeah Christian has the ECW title, but it holds little prestige. I think I would rather be wrestling on SD with a chance at any title than stuck on ECW.

btw, anyone know what happened to Kanyon? I hate that he wasn't on wwe longer than he was.
 
Kanyon probably lurks here.

I really love the users of Justin TV for streaming mid-90s WCW PPVs.. it's all I've been watching as far as wrestling goes (aside from "watching" Raw) the past week or two. I'm watching Konnan vs. Juventud Guerrera right now at Fall Brawl/War Games ... I think it's 1996, but I'm not 100% sure.

http://www.justin.tv/nextgenerationtv2
 
I was at the last Monday Nitro, panama city beach spring break. not a big crowd there, but def. a surreal experience.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Man, the YokelTaker gimmick was so fuckin' bad.[/QUOTE]

You've gotta be fucking kidding me. Bikertaker was awesome after he grew into it. The first several months were definitely bad, but eventually he toned down trying to sound "cool" all the time ("Vince, di'ja even talk to yer old lady?" - ugh) and by the time he was buried by Kane he was fantastic with that character.

Bitter, respect-demanding Undertaker would be a hundred times more entertaining in the Punk feud than current zombie Undertaker.

[quote name='pimpster4183']I was at the last Monday Nitro, panama city beach spring break. not a big crowd there, but def. a surreal experience.[/QUOTE]
What was that like? The crowd, at least from TV, didn't seem to be as into it as they should have been...I just figured that was because the crowd was made up of a lot of drunk kids looking for something to do rather than your usual arena-going wrestling fan (similar to that biker event WCW would have every year where they charged no admission). Did it seem like everyone was flipping out over what was going on?
 
...and I was at the Raw where they announced Shane had bought WCW.

Look at the WCW roster when WWF took over, and look at exactly who we got in the Invasion storyline. The WWF was "invaded" alright, except WCW sent the opening hour of Thunder and WCW Saturday Night to handle the job. Lance Storm, Hugh Morrus, Buff Bagwell, Billy Kidman, Palumbo & O'Haire, Chavo, Stasiak, etc. No Nash, Hogan, Goldberg, Sting, Hall, Flair, Mysterio, or any of the other top WCW stars at the time - the ones who did come to the WWF came long after the storyline was done despite getting huge reactions on Raw whenever Vince mentioned them.

The best thing about the whole Invasion storyline is that Heyman brought ECW into it. It's just a shame that ECW was the only faction that actually had a quality roster, but at least we got a couple of excellent Hardy/RVD matches out of it.
 
[quote name='KaneRobot']You've gotta be fucking kidding me. Bikertaker was awesome after he grew into it. The first several months were definitely bad, but eventually he toned down trying to sound "cool" all the time ("Vince, di'ja even talk to yer old lady?" - ugh) and by the time he was buried by Kane he was fantastic with that character..

Bitter, respect-demanding Undertaker would be a hundred times more entertaining in the Punk feud than current zombie Undertaker.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this 100%. I got tired of the current version about 6 months after he came back with it.

Also, I forgot just how unattractive his wife was.
 
[quote name='KaneRobot']You've gotta be fucking kidding me. Bikertaker was awesome after he grew into it. The first several months were definitely bad, but eventually he toned down trying to sound "cool" all the time ("Vince, di'ja even talk to yer old lady?" - ugh) and by the time he was buried by Kane he was fantastic with that character.

Bitter, respect-demanding Undertaker would be a hundred times more entertaining in the Punk feud than current zombie Undertaker.


What was that like? The crowd, at least from TV, didn't seem to be as into it as they should have been...I just figured that was because the crowd was made up of a lot of drunk kids looking for something to do rather than your usual arena-going wrestling fan (similar to that biker event WCW would have every year where they charged no admission). Did it seem like everyone was flipping out over what was going on?[/QUOTE]



There were some fans there, but just about everyone was drunk, that night the Boardwalk Beach Resort where it was held at was doing a deal where you pay like $10.00 and you get a yellow plastic mug and you got free refills on draft all night. I do remember though when Shane came out a lot of the crowd was going WTF?
 
[quote name='pimpster4183']There were some fans there, but just about everyone was drunk, that night the Boardwalk Beach Resort where it was held at was doing a deal where you pay like $10.00 and you get a yellow plastic mug and you got free refills on draft all night. I do remember though when Shane came out a lot of the crowd was going WTF?[/QUOTE]

Thanks. That's pretty much what I figured. Just bad timing I suppose, since obviously the location was planned months in advance, but it really is too bad that arguably the most significant moment in the entire history of the pro wrestling business had a crowd full of drunk partiers rather than drunk wrestling fans.

[quote name='Brak']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VPP-sM_2YU[/QUOTE]

The world definitely needs to be reminded of this theme once in a while.

"HA HA!

American MAAALLLLES"
 
[quote name='pimpster4183']The only reason the big names didn't come over from WCW was because Vince is a cheap ass.[/QUOTE]

I'd say that being cheapass has nothing to do with it. Most of the big guys had guaranteed contracts with Turner where they would get paid MILLIONS to just... do nothing. It's why they all showed up in a staggered fashion in WWF, it was about when the contracts expired.

So, in essence, Vince would have had to offer them astronomical amounts to show up right away, which is assuming they could even break the contract.

In a lot of ways, that's where I always assumed the Invasion started going south. While there was always gonig to be that 'fuck them' bent to it, when you have guys like Booker T and Buff Bagwell spearheading the movement, you're essentially screwed from day one. What was the option? Keep those guys on the shelf and wait until you get the big guys (Hall, Nash, Hogan, Goldberg) to show up, which was months (years?) later?

Point is... the angle, as fucked as it turned out, was never really going to go anywhere, not with the individual contracts that most of the top WCW guys had. So, and I'm open to be corrected on this, I'm not really sure Vince being a cheapass really entered into it in a realistic way.

Plus, wasn't there an idea floating around that they'd keep WCW operating as it's own entity (well, like they're doing with ECW, anyway), but scrapped it when the contracts issue came up? No matter what people say, by the end, WCW was still identified with Hogan, the Outsiders, Goldberg, Sting, and Flair... you can't build a show around Buff Bagwell and (who's betta than) Kanyon.
 
I really think your all's nostalgia for WCW is a case of looking at things through rose-tinted glasses. For every 20+ minute Jericho/Guerrero/Benoit/Mysterio/Malenko match, there were ten nWo beatdowns/Sting dropping from the ceiling/Ultimate Warrior returns/monster truck matches/Judy Bagwell on a pole matches.

Don't misunderstand, the WWE/F has had its share of crappy angles and matches but WCW absolutely buried itself in garbage towards the end. They had no answer to Austin/Rock once the nWo got stale.

The WWE may have trouble building stars nowadays, but WCW debuted that idea loooooong before Vince and Co. suffered from writer's block. Look at the guys that WCW had on their payroll before the WWF signed them. Nash, Hall, Austin, Triple H, Benoit, Guerrero, Mysterio, etc... WCW had a few neat ideas but once Nitro launched, they relied primarily on Turner's deep pockets to acquire established talent from the WWF and to a lesser degree, ECW. They could grow their own stars to a degree (Goldberg is probably the best post-NWA example of this) but they were nowhere near as good at the WWE when it came to talent development.

There are some awesome WCW wrestlers and matches in the world but they got beaten because their quality in the late 90s-early 00s absolutely sucked. I wish they were still around in order to force other wrestling companies to compete but to hold them up as some kind of beacon of great wrestling just seems revisionist.
 
I finally saw the actual "fan attack" from that last PPV. (I only saw the aftermath, as I was in another window on my PC.)

Now I feel like a dumbass for thinking it was an actual fan. :lol: The awkwardness was pretty convincing.
 
When did everyone here first realize that what was going on in the ring wasn't what was "really" going on (or to put it bluntly, when did you realize that everything was scripted)? I've always been a bit curious as to what moment or interview or whatever "opened your eyes."

For me, it had to be the second time that Undertaker escaped from a burning casket, and everyone seemed to forget that it happened once before already. The first time it happened...well, I was a damn kid. :lol:
 
I think I was around 11 when I pretty much realized wrestling was "fake". I know it was before Lex Luger and his Lex Express bullshit although that happened when I was almost 14 so it's hard to pin point the exact moment. It never altered the way I felt about wrestling. I still didn't know the finishes so the wrestlers knowing who was going to win didn't really matter.
 
The nWo briefly made me think that wrestling was real.

(Hey. I was in 6th or 7th grade, alright?)
 
I realized it was fake when I was little and when I saw Hulk Hogan get up after being beat up then just get up out of nowhere "Hulk up" like he wasn't just getting beat up a minute ago hit the leg drop to win the match. I just knew it was something wrong and never took it too seriously since.
 
http://www.wwe.com/inside/news/869043
Rey suspended for a month for wellness policy violation.

cqk3b.jpg
 
Congratulations Dolph Ziggler, and "haha" to Rey Mysterio after bitching about wanting an extended US Title run.
 
[quote name='JJSP']Congratulations Dolph Ziggler, and "haha" to Rey Mysterio after bitching about wanting an extended US Title run.[/QUOTE]

I could call you Lillian Garcia after the way you just called one title by another's name. But I was really hoping Ziggy would have won the IC belt at SummerSlam.
 
[quote name='Matt Young']I could call you Lillian Garcia after the way you just called one title by another's name But I was really hoping Ziggy would have won the IC belt at SummerSlam.[/QUOTE]
As if it really matters. Not like the WWE gives a shit about those belts, why should I? For all I know, Rey could have won the Juniors title. ;)
 
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