Which CAGs are Christians?

[quote name='nharmon91']Oh and come join the Episcopal church because apparently we love gay people.[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah?

[quote name='nharmon91']Yeah, God still loves you if your gay, you may be sining but he still loves you.[/quote]

So much for that notion, eh?
 
[quote name='lilboo']lmao, yes. i'm a terrible, TERRIBLE, person for it :)

Which is why I stay away from religions because it's really annoying about how whacky & judgemental people get :)[/quote]
Are you saying people arent wacky and judgemental outsde of religious sects?, man what planet are you living on I want to be there.
 
[quote name='nharmon91']Are you saying people arent wacky and judgemental outsde of religious sects?, man what planet are you living on I want to be there.[/QUOTE]

No no, of course not.
But religions in GENERAL and in MY experience, they have been. People are whacky, crazy and judgmental no matter where you are--and I know that.
 
We could start a thread in the Vs. forum on this I suppose, but let me put a few things out there.

1) Homosexuality is indeed a sin according to God's Word. You can't read Romans 1 and come away with any different idea. Whether you think it's a sin or not is immaterial, it is.
2) Homosexuality is not, as far too many religious groups seem to indicate, the unforgivable sin.

People will argue the Born Gay / Choose Gay thing till their blue in the face. I think it goes both ways, depending on the person. The fact of the matter is that everyone has weaknesses and sin that trouble them especially. Maybe it's lust, maybe it's alcholoism, maybe it's a quick, fierce temper that causes them to lash out at people, maybe it's homosexulaity, maybe it's stealing and/or greed. For some people one or two on the list above may be unthinkable to do, while others really, truly struggle with it.

Regardless of the sins, holding on to it and being unrepentant is a damnable offense because it separates you from God. That was the whole problem in the first place, and that's why Jesus came and died to forgive out sins. But we don't use that as a license to sin; it would be inappropriate to say "I'm forgiven so I'll sin all I want! Hot dog!"

The theif may struggle all his life with fightining off that temptation to steal. Some days will be better than others, some days he'll fall, some days he'll be fine. The same holds true for the alcholohic, the homosexual, the adulterer, etc. When we give up and say "I don't care if it's a sin, I'm doing it anyway because I want to" or worse yet, "Despite what God says, I declare my vice to be not a sin" we've now made that sin our idol, our god. We worship that sin and not the true God, and we let sin rule our lives and become a slave to it (ironically, many people will call this act "setting yourself free").

Jesus' death was for all sins, but if we scorn his love and forgivness it won't do us any good. The life of the Christian here on this earth is not one of perfection--not one of us can be without sin--but it is one of wrestling. It's one of saying "No" to sin and its allures and knowing that living our lives to praise and thank God for setting us free from sin is what we should be doing. And when we fall into sin agian? We go back to that cross, lay our sins at Jesus' feet and leave them there, praying for the strength to fall again.

Does God hate homosexulaity? Yes, God hates all sin. Does God hate the homosexual? Yes and no. Yes in that he hates the one who commits sin against him, and no in that he sent his Son to die for all our sins--so he exacted his punishment of sin (the "yes" 1/2 of the answer) from Jesus, not from us as we deserved. In the end, God does in fact love sinners (homosexuals included). That's why he sent Jesus for us.

That's probably clear as mud. Let me know if I can do anything to better explain myself, or more to the point, try to explain God's dealing with our sins.
 
Actually I don't have temptation to perform acts of homosexuality. I just don't want acts of heterosexuality. LOL

And it's not even a want in the terms in which I have to ACTUALLY think about it, it's just..what comes to me naturally.

But I was always taught that God loves everyone, and that's what I believe. The fact that I have a boyfriend--whom I love and want to spend my life with--honestly does NOT put me in the same boat as a murderer. So that's my 2 cents on it, I can't imagine my acts of TREATING another human with RESPECT, and CARE, and LOVE is a SIN because it's of the same sex. But hey, whatever.
 
[quote name='lilboo']Actually I don't have temptation to perform acts of homosexuality. I just don't want acts of heterosexuality. LOL

And it's not even a want in the terms in which I have to ACTUALLY think about it, it's just..what comes to me naturally.

But I was always taught that God loves everyone, and that's what I believe. The fact that I have a boyfriend--whom I love and want to spend my life with--honestly does NOT put me in the same boat as a murderer. So that's my 2 cents on it, I can't imagine my acts of TREATING another human with RESPECT, and CARE, and LOVE is a SIN because it's of the same sex. But hey, whatever.[/quote] Thats like saying ya god said murder is bad but I am just going to go kill a few rapists and it wont matter because I cant imagine killing rapists to be a sin.
 
[quote name='daroga']We could start a thread in the Vs. forum on this I suppose, but let me put a few things out there.

1) Homosexuality is indeed a sin according to God's Word. You can't read Romans 1 and come away with any different idea. Whether you think it's a sin or not is immaterial, it is.
2) Homosexuality is not, as far too many religious groups seem to indicate, the unforgivable sin.

People will argue the Born Gay / Choose Gay thing till their blue in the face. I think it goes both ways, depending on the person. The fact of the matter is that everyone has weaknesses and sin that trouble them especially. Maybe it's lust, maybe it's alcholoism, maybe it's a quick, fierce temper that causes them to lash out at people, maybe it's homosexulaity, maybe it's stealing and/or greed. For some people one or two on the list above may be unthinkable to do, while others really, truly struggle with it.

Regardless of the sins, holding on to it and being unrepentant is a damnable offense because it separates you from God. That was the whole problem in the first place, and that's why Jesus came and died to forgive out sins. But we don't use that as a license to sin; it would be inappropriate to say "I'm forgiven so I'll sin all I want! Hot dog!"

The theif may struggle all his life with fightining off that temptation to steal. Some days will be better than others, some days he'll fall, some days he'll be fine. The same holds true for the alcholohic, the homosexual, the adulterer, etc. When we give up and say "I don't care if it's a sin, I'm doing it anyway because I want to" or worse yet, "Despite what God says, I declare my vice to be not a sin" we've now made that sin our idol, our god. We worship that sin and not the true God, and we let sin rule our lives and become a slave to it (ironically, many people will call this act "setting yourself free").

Jesus' death was for all sins, but if we scorn his love and forgivness it won't do us any good. The life of the Christian here on this earth is not one of perfection--not one of us can be without sin--but it is one of wrestling. It's one of saying "No" to sin and its allures and knowing that living our lives to praise and thank God for setting us free from sin is what we should be doing. And when we fall into sin agian? We go back to that cross, lay our sins at Jesus' feet and leave them there, praying for the strength to fall again.

Does God hate homosexulaity? Yes, God hates all sin. Does God hate the homosexual? Yes and no. Yes in that he hates the one who commits sin against him, and no in that he sent his Son to die for all our sins--so he exacted his punishment of sin (the "yes" 1/2 of the answer) from Jesus, not from us as we deserved. In the end, God does in fact love sinners (homosexuals included). That's why he sent Jesus for us.

That's probably clear as mud. Let me know if I can do anything to better explain myself, or more to the point, try to explain God's dealing with our sins.[/quote]
Wow, great post. Pretty much sums up my feelings as well.
 
[quote name='daroga']Could you elaborate on that for me? I've never heard this concept before, but it's come up several times in this thread. I'm just curious what exactly you mean by it.[/QUOTE]


I know I'll sound shallow for this and my reasoning may not come out truly since I have a hard ass time getting my actual thoughts onto the INTRANETS:

Basically, Christianity isn't a religion, it's more of a very good guideline for personal growth and forms of belief. Actually, now that I say that, it's more like it's something unto itself. There's really no strict guidelines, it's more of being in tune with "truth" (ie. God). God is sure as hell not boring... he's basically super kick ass. Everything around me usually comes back around to crazy ass philosophical stuff both natural and supernatural (please don't consider me a weed head or a new ager... cuz I'm not >_< ). I apply what he does in my life to alot of things.... man I feel like I'm ranting...

anyway, I guess it's more along the lines as God being the best friend you never have to leave even when he's hard on you, not an organization with rules and social mindsets. God is revolutionary and dangerous. Making it a religion is like surrounding him in a Tupperware, and that sucks donkey rectum ass thingy leg shlong...?


plus this thread needs humor... since when did everyone need to get so offensive and defensive... mandatory cat:


scary_big_cat.jpg



plus raptor Jesus:

raptorjesus-36752.jpg
 
[quote name='RelentlessRolento']I know I'll sound shallow for this and my reasoning may not come out truly since I have a hard ass time getting my actual thoughts onto the INTRANETS:

Basically, Christianity isn't a religion, it's more of a very good guideline for personal growth and forms of belief. Actually, now that I say that, it's more like it's something unto itself. There's really no strict guidelines, it's more of being in tune with "truth" (ie. God). God is sure as hell not boring... he's basically super kick ass. Everything around me usually comes back around to crazy ass philosophical stuff both natural and supernatural (please don't consider me a weed head or a new ager... cuz I'm not >_< ). I apply what he does in my life to alot of things.... man I feel like I'm ranting...
[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but no. Christianity most certainly is a religion by any but the most ridiculous definitions. I'm pullin a wiki on this one:

A religion is a set of beliefs and practices generally held by a community, involving adherence to codified beliefs and rituals and study of ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction

Christianity satisfies all those conditions.

Oh, and there is nothing wrong with being gay. Anyone who uses scripture to say otherwise is an idiot. If a god exists, it doesn't make any sense for him to give a shit about what you put in your or someone else's butt. I mean, let's think logically here. If we assume that there is some all-powerful, all-knowing creator of everything (which is, of course, a ridiculous assumption whose arguments in support of don't stand up to any sort of scrutiny), why would it concern itself with what you do? Clearly, if god exists, there's no way in hell that it would be awful, sadisitic, murderer described by Christianity. He's probably just some dude who was bored one day and realized that ExistanceStop was having a buy 2 get 1 free sale on all used universes.
 
[quote name='evanft']I'm sorry, but no. Christianity most certainly is a religion by any but the most ridiculous definitions. I'm pullin a wiki on this one:



Christianity satisfies all those conditions.[/QUOTE]

My form of christianity dosn't even apply to what was stated in the wiki. Comon knowledge and popular forms of christianity apply, but like I was saying before, the churches seem to conform to "rules" and mindstets. Christianity (I hate that word really) sucks... having a good relationship with God dosn't.

God created a world that has Rambo in it, shouldn't that be enough to prove anything ;)

rambo.jpg
 
[quote name='RelentlessRolento']My form of christianity dosn't even apply to what was stated in the wiki. Comon knowledge and popular forms of christianity apply, but like I was saying before, the churches seem to conform to "rules" and mindstets. Christianity (I hate that word really) sucks... having a good relationship with God dosn't.

God created a world that has Rambo in it, shouldn't that be enough to prove anything ;)

rambo.jpg
[/QUOTE]

Stallone created Rambo. Clearly, god was too busy with Evil Dead.

Your argument still fails. Christianity is a religion. You've watered down the popular form so much that even calling yourself a Christian doesn't make any sense, and therefore this dose nothing for Christianity's classification as a religion.
 
[quote name='evanft']Stallone created Rambo. Clearly, god was too busy with Evil Dead.

Your argument still fails. Christianity is a religion. You've watered down the popular form so much that even calling yourself a Christian doesn't make any sense, and therefore this dose nothing for Christianity's classification as a religion.[/QUOTE]


just to be clear, I said God created the world that has rambo, not rambo himself ;)

never said my argument succeeded either. A popular form still never means it's the right form. And yes, calling me a christian makes no sense, I have a strong distaste for what people think of the culture as well as the culture itself. It's gotten so canned nowadays.

A rock isn't a hammer until it's called a hammer... and that made no sense.

random pic:

fatdog.jpg
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Don't reinforce negative stereotypes, Evan. Let them have their thread - debating in here is going to be worth even less than usual.[/QUOTE]


agreed. I hate debates anyway. Not like this threadis going to effect anyone really. Gamefaqs is a good example.
 
[quote name='RelentlessRolento']just to be clear, I said God created the world that has rambo, not rambo himself ;)

never said my argument succeeded either. A popular form still never means it's the right form. And yes, calling me a christian makes no sense, I have a strong distaste for what people think of the culture as well as the culture itself. It's gotten so canned nowadays.

A rock isn't a hammer until it's called a hammer... and that made no sense.

random pic:

fatdog.jpg
[/QUOTE]

Then you're....not a Christian, you're more of a deist.

Lookee a the dogggeee!!!
 
hell no way am I a deist. I do believe in spiritual stuff. I'm just not attached to anything you could say. I'm like a crab wearing a loincloth or whatever...??????????

wtfbeans.jpg
 
[quote name='daroga']Not to be picky, but...

What did you mean by "Martin Luther extended that belief"? Luther's goal was never to break apart from the Roman Church; his goal was to reform the errors that he saw in it as it contradicted the Word of God. When Rome was unwilling to bend, he and other with him began worshiping separately from the their masses. His goal was never to do away with the clergy to scrap the concept of the church; in fact, one of his primary goals in the Reformation was to supply teaching tools for the pastors and the layity so that they could be better informed about God's Word (some pastors in rural areas didn't even know the whole of the Lord's Prayer!). Thus, he wrote the catechisms (large and small--large for the teachers/parents, small for the students to study).

A church body is a pretty vital part of maintaining one's faith. Faith doesn't reamin "status quo"; it's either living or dying. Church not only provides a study of God's Word (which hopefully is supplemented through out the week with family/personal study/devotions), but also grants a Christian fellowship with other believers. To cut yourself off from that gathering is not only hurting yourself but also hurting others who would benefit from seeing you.

Perhaps the writer to the Hebrews said it best. "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching" (Hebrews 10:25). Swallowing whatever Pastor X or Teacher Y might say at a given church is not the "ideal Chrisitan" though. We ought to all be like the Bereans, checking what we hear from a religious leader against the ultimate authority of God's Word (see Acts 17:10-15).
:)[/quote]

Reminds me of this movement called the G12. I had some guy try to talk me into it. They believe you don't need the "congregational hiarchy" so have a church. They only get together ingroups of 12. I asked him "show me in the bible, where that is commanded?" He points me to how Jesus had 13 disciples, there are 12 tribes in Judah. But no concrete verse. Then I pointed to what Paul was teaching in the books of Timothy. How each job in the church body should be this and that. His final rebuttle was that it was revelated to the leader of the movement by God himself and thinking otherwise was against God's command. I said "that's what extremists say before they blow themselves up in the middle of a market full of people." He left without a word. I was hoping he would keep going. But oh well. Check out some basic info of G12 here.

http://www.gotquestions.org/g12-vision.html

BTW...Rolento...love the Raptor Jesus comic. It had me ROFLing while my wife said it shouldn't be funny, but it sure tickled her funny bone. I will save it and had it to my screensaver!
 
[quote name='evanft']
Oh, and there is nothing wrong with being gay. [/QUOTE]

I have no problems with gays and how they choose to be, but homosexuality is wrong; both Science (can't have babies with two males and if you aren't procreating, you might as well be dead, so say-ith science) & Religion (well at least christianity). It might not be against the law (mostly) and it doesn't hurt anybody (mostly), but it doesn't make it any less than irregular.

And great post by Daroga, you pretty much destroyied all anti-christian arguements in one fell swoop, excellent work.
 
We think a lot alike Daroga, on the different kinds of vices that trap us.

Ah, lilboo, you're gay?
Man, finally. I was wondering when a gay gamer would pop up on these boards. Nice to meet you.
 
[quote name='dallow']We think a lot alike Daroga, on the different kinds of vices that trap us.

Ah, lilboo, you're gay?
Man, finally. I was wondering when a gay gamer would pop up on these boards. Nice to meet you.[/QUOTE]

You too?
Actually, I've been around since.. um.. well I'm the 10th member :p, so I've been around waiting for others. There's actually a few of us here.

And nice to meet you too! (regardless of your sexuality LOL)
 
[quote name='evanft']I mean, let's think logically here. If we assume that there is some all-powerful, all-knowing creator of everything (which is, of course, a ridiculous assumption whose arguments in support of don't stand up to any sort of scrutiny), why would it concern itself with what you do? Clearly, if god exists, there's no way in hell that it would be awful, sadisitic, murderer described by Christianity. [/quote]
That's because the Essence of God is Love. Everything is towards an everlasting means.
And nope, you can't think logically about that.

Why do I care about genocide starvation in Africa?
I don't know man, I just do.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus never condemned homosexuality at a time when it was running rampant.[/QUOTE]

This is a confusing statement, so if you could clarify, I'd 'preciate it. Mainly, are you saying it wasn't rampant so he didn't touch upon it? Or is this mainly just a "well Jesus never condemned it" thing?

Strell has a huge headache at the moment. Please keep this in mind. Really it doesn't have to do with any topic or thread in particular. I just want to whine about it. :(
 
[quote name='Strell']This is a confusing statement, so if you could clarify, I'd 'preciate it. Mainly, are you saying it wasn't rampant so he didn't touch upon it? Or is this mainly just a "well Jesus never condemned it" thing?

Strell has a huge headache at the moment. Please keep this in mind. Really it doesn't have to do with any topic or thread in particular. I just want to whine about it. :([/QUOTE]

Sure thing. From what I understand, at the time Jesus was a live, engaging in homosexual activity was pretty common, yet he never speaks out against it.
 
Ahh. I see.

I was reading it as "never condemned it when it was rampant," implying that it was not rampant, and thus he had no reason to say something. You're saying "never condemned it even though it was rampant."

English language, you have won this round.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Don't forget Hex, Human Snatcher, and I think Sarasaugi (could very easily be mistaken).[/QUOTE]

And Strell; that guy loves wang ;)

[quote name='The Crotch']Urgh. I know this is hypocritical of me, but as the envoy from Science-land, I couldn't let this go by. This appears to be a combination of some version of the is-ought fallacy and the mistaken belief that science is in any way involved with morality. No scientist would ever say that "if you aren't procreating, you might as well be dead." They wouldn't say that as scientists, at least.[/QUOTE]

Actually, you're right, I have no clue what the hell I thinking there, at least about the procreating part. However in a logical sense, a penis should ever only go in a vagina, any other way would be incorrect, whether the partner was male or female.
 
[quote name='-Never4ever-']
However in a logical sense, a penis should ever only go in a vagina, any other way would be incorrect, whether the partner was male or female.[/quote]

If prefer men with vaginas
 
[quote name='seanr1221']Sure thing. From what I understand, at the time Jesus was a live, engaging in homosexual activity was pretty common, yet he never speaks out against it.[/quote]

I don't think it was common at all in the poor, lower classes.
It was the higher ups in Rome that led those completely hedonistic lifestyles.
 
[quote name='dallow']I don't think it was common at all in the poor, lower classes.
It was the higher ups in Rome that led those completely hedonistic lifestyles.[/QUOTE]

Regardless, I'm looking for someone to post something where Jesus said engaging in homosexuality is a sin.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']Regardless, I'm looking for someone to post something where Jesus said engaging in homosexuality is a sin.[/QUOTE]

The bible.
 
I really don't think He did personally.
He didn't say a lot of things, like whether life begins at conception or later (because obviously people at the time wouldn't know what that meant)
I don't think it was a topic that came up in His circles, (the poor and the needy), so it was never discussed.
 
[quote name='-Never4ever-']The bible.[/QUOTE]

Ok, and please point me in the direction of the words Jesus said about homosexuality.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']Ok, and please point me in the direction of the words Jesus said about homosexuality.[/QUOTE]

Er . . . um . . . The Bible?

Seriously, way too tired to look this up. Maybe I'm wrong, and it only says that homosexuality is wrong, without saying that it directly came from Jesus.
 
on the whole subject of what Jesus said and didn't say, I say look into wisdom. The bible is more of a good guideline without all the pointers to life. I have yet to find a verse in there on sex positions and what is the right way to kill an animal. Heck, I prefer it this way. A God that holds your hand the entire way is pretty much a pansy. God pretty much busts my balls all the time as well as pumps me up. The concept of right and wrong, black and white, isn't God... he's never bland like that.
 
[quote name='-Never4ever-']Er . . . um . . . The Bible?

Seriously, way too tired to look this up. Maybe I'm wrong, and it only says that homosexuality is wrong, without saying that it directly came from Jesus.[/quote]
Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. What you're thinking of came from Leviticus, which was well before Jesus' time.

[quote name='RelentlessRolento']I have yet to find a verse in there on sex positions and what is the right way to kill an animal.[/quote]
The bible has a lot to say about how you kill an animal, with the kosher living and all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shechita
 
[quote name='evilmax17']Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. What you're thinking of came from Leviticus, which was well before Jesus' time.


The bible has a lot to say about how you kill an animal, with the kosher living and all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shechita[/QUOTE]

Ah, I thought I was right.

Now again, correct me if Im wrong, but Leviticus also says shaving your face is wrong.
 
If I've learned anything from the internet it's overloaded with too many "why" questions... dosn't anyone have a single string of faith nowadays? oh wait... this is the internet >_
 
[quote name='seanr1221']Ah, I thought I was right.

Now again, correct me if Im wrong, but Leviticus also says shaving your face is wrong.[/QUOTE]

Yup.
The Bible also says it's wrong to sleep with a woman if she's DIRTY (on her period), LOL
Also, the BIBLE ALSO says that you can get your wife stoned (with rocks, not weed) if you marry her and shes NOT a virgin. LOL

And just so you know, regardless of your sexual preference, the Bible ALSO says that it's a SIN to have impure THOUGHTS! You know, like as a guy you see a girl..and you see she's hot and you wanna have sex with her.. (SIN!)..LOL

And Divorce..well..let's not go there.. :)

Just wish people had faith, and didn't live their life according to a book..and just DID right things..Because the problem with the Bible (IMO) is that people pick and choose what THEY like and what THEY feel is right. Like they'll protest homosexuality and babble how it's WRONG and it's a SIN and HEAVEN HELP US ALL if they are allowed to get married because it'll RUIN!! (RUIN!!!!) what marriage is all about----------meanwhile, all those people are either divorced, or related to someone who is divorced.
 
Homosexuality was not a sin that was rampant in Judea, Samaria, and Galilee at the time of Jesus. When Jesus preached, he condemned the vices that were there (the self-righteous hypocrisy of the Pharisees, and forgave the sins of the tax collectors and prostitutes that were reforming their ways). However, God clearly condemns homosexulaity as a sin through the pen of Paul (see, in Christianity, the words actually spoken by Jesus aren't the only ones who count. The whole Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is inspired by God and thus inerrant. Quoting Paul is as foundational for a Christian's faith as quoting Jesus). Paul did his missionary work in Asia Minor and Greece. In Greece and Rome homosexuality was a severe problem. Thus, Romans, 1 Corinthians, etc. have passages pointing to the sin of such a lifestyle.

In regards to Leviticus. Yes, there is condemndation of homosexuality there as well as many other things, but any so-called Christian who would use those passages to out-right condemn something doesn't really have their head on straight. At best we might get an idea of God's feeling towards certain things through the Mosaic law, but there's a few things to keep in mind:

1) The whole of the Ceremonial Law (those laws dealing with sacrifices, worship, etc.) were all a foreshadowing of Christ. The blood of the animals pictured the blood of Jesus. Those sacrifices didn't actually do away with sin, but all pointed to the coming Messiah. Thus, Christians do not offer sacrifices at worship. The all-sufficient sacrifice has already been made for the sins of the whole world in Jesus' death on the cross.

2) In the Mosaic law there are also those laws which we refer to as the Civic Laws. Remember, after their release from Egypt, Israel was on their way to the promised land. And there they would have no king and would be a theocracy, a nation ruled directly by God. So many of their laws are for civic order and the state. A secondary reason for these laws was to set them apart. Israel would be different from other nations because they were the "chosen people," the ones from whom God would bring for the promised Savior. So some laws were set to differentiate the people from the nations around them, even in things weren't actually wrong.

A good example of this is the law against wearing a cloth made of two kinds of material. It's not that blended cloth was wrong it and of itself, but it was a reminder for the Isrealites that they weren't to be mingling their religion with the pagan religions around them, and really shouldn't be intermarrying. Sadly, they heeded none of those reminders.

So, many of the laws in the Mosaic law either because of fulfillment or because we don't live in the theocracy of Post-Moses Israel do not apply. But many still do--the Moral Law, which we'd immediately think of as the 10 Commandments, still apply as the New Testament repeatedly backs them up. Likewise, homosexuality (a segment of the 6th [or 7th depending on the numbering system you're used to] Commandment) is condemned.

A sin doesn't magically become not a sin because it feels natural for you. It might feel natural for me to sleep with every woman I come across that will have me (luckily I married the only woman on earth who would, so I'm ok ;) ), but that doesn't make it not an offense to God. At the same time, neither of those beyond God's forgiveness.

Lilboo, I hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you. I've said these things because I care about you and don't want you to be hurt. You're absolutely right when you condemn pick-and-choose Christians who select this passage but not that one. And that's exactly why homosexuality cannot be considered "A-OK" for a Christian, despite what many of the bigger church bodies may decide, over and above God's Word.

This thread need not turn into a giant debate. If we want that, someone make a thread in the VS. forum, or we can take it to PMs. And evan, I've asked you nicely once. Please stop posting inflammatory things against Christians/Christianity in this thread.
 
[quote name='lilboo']Yup.
The Bible also says it's wrong to sleep with a woman if she's DIRTY (on her period), LOL
Also, the BIBLE ALSO says that you can get your wife stoned (with rocks, not weed) if you marry her and shes NOT a virgin. LOL

And just so you know, regardless of your sexual preference, the Bible ALSO says that it's a SIN to have impure THOUGHTS! You know, like as a guy you see a girl..and you see she's hot and you wanna have sex with her.. (SIN!)..LOL

And Divorce..well..let's not go there.. :)

Just wish people had faith, and didn't live their life according to a book..and just DID right things..Because the problem with the Bible (IMO) is that people pick and choose what THEY like and what THEY feel is right. Like they'll protest homosexuality and babble how it's WRONG and it's a SIN and HEAVEN HELP US ALL if they are allowed to get married because it'll RUIN!! (RUIN!!!!) what marriage is all about----------meanwhile, all those people are either divorced, or related to someone who is divorced.[/quote]

It's true. The bible is full of contradictions and people pick and choose what they want and use it to make a point on something they don't like. But if anyone calls themselves a "christian", and calls the bible just a book... then maybe you're really not one. The problem with Christianity, is that different people will always interpret the bible to benefit them and justify whatever lifestyle they live. Example...."fundamental mormons." (Quotes cuz the Latter Day Saints say they are not mormons). They have polygomy in their life because they say Abraham has multiple wives. But Jesus said one man, one woman. Why don't they follow that? Cuz they view of the bible justifies their lifestyle. Until everyone actually reads the whole bible, there will always be different beliefs like purgatory, homosexuality, divorce and so forth. Stop being lazy and read the book of 1st and 2nd Corinthians. Don't forget, we live in the grace which is the new testament. Jews lived by the old testament. Divorce is a totally different thing to the old time jews. God was also genocidal back then. Now he's merciful cuz of JC. And who would wanna have sex with a woman while she's minstruating?! Ugh. No red wings for me thanks.
 
[quote name='lilboo']Yup.
The Bible also says it's wrong to sleep with a woman if she's DIRTY (on her period), LOL
Also, the BIBLE ALSO says that you can get your wife stoned (with rocks, not weed) if you marry her and shes NOT a virgin. LOL[/quote]

Now, I don't necessarily agree with this interpretation of biblical history, but all of these "absurdities" come from Leviticus, and Old Testament text. Some interpret the coming of Christ to be the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (not the part I disagree with), and in fulfilling it, bring an "end" to the OT. IOW, that it no longer need be followed to the letter of the law the way the gospels and New Testament are. I think that's simply absurd (that God's word has a built-in time clause at which point what God said goes expires).

Outside of Romans, I'd never seen anything that quite clearly condemns homosexuality in the bible (even the leviticus phrasing is awkward to a degree), let alone New Testament. As for the "dirty" women, you can't even live with them, let alone sleep with them. IIRC, they must leave the house for 30 days (or four weeks) if they are having their "abomination" of a period. Since this is a monthly reoccurring situation, the wife may only spend 5 days a year at home (logically, I suppose). This may be a way to gain new converts ("Christianity: For When You Want to Kick the Bitch Out").

I also can't help but think that Romans 1:27 was more another political point in trying to explain differences. Additionally, it's a *letter*, not a gospel (let's not get started on the political process with the council of Nicea, and how the collection of books both included and excluded from the Bible was a very political ordeal controlled by a few). Now, I know it would be contestable to say that any Bible books aren't perfect, but let's be real between 2 millenia of translation and retranslation; in addition to the authors of these letters and non-gospel books. They're still humans.

On the subject of oft-cited and overly claimed sins, I like to point out the many and numerous times (far more than homosexuality) that usury is condemned in the Bible. I also think that, living under capitalism, an economic relationship under which all transactions involve a surplus profit to at least one person in the transaction, is an extended and nationwide (if not worldwide at this point) form of

And just so you know, regardless of your sexual preference, the Bible ALSO says that it's a SIN to have impure THOUGHTS! You know, like as a guy you see a girl..and you see she's hot and you wanna have sex with her.. (SIN!)..LOL

And Divorce..well..let's not go there.. :)

Cue the nuns with rulers!

As for divorce, the political process of the Catholic church reared its ugly head when I was 9 - I had to deal with the fact that my father had his marriage annulled within 2 months of the divorce being finalized (which is akin to running the Boston Marathon in 14 minutes). I wondered, and never got a straight answer, as to whether or not I was a "bastard" at that point. Well, I know I'm a *bastard*, but not in the literal sense, y'know? ;)

Just wish people had faith, and didn't live their life according to a book..and just DID right things..Because the problem with the Bible (IMO) is that people pick and choose what THEY like and what THEY feel is right. Like they'll protest homosexuality and babble how it's WRONG and it's a SIN and HEAVEN HELP US ALL if they are allowed to get married because it'll RUIN!! (RUIN!!!!) what marriage is all about----------meanwhile, all those people are either divorced, or related to someone who is divorced.

Eh, I like a little dogma - looking at faiths, you see a wide variety of interpretations of the bible, in addition to most interpretations having equally logical stock in the text of the Bible. My concern with nondenominational churches is that they, to me, frequently invoke a sense of "do what you want, God loves you" into their peoples (that's a pretty easy message to like, of course). I realize the seeming folly of my trying to dodge God's feeling of homosexuality while trying to decry those who interpret the Bible to justify their life choices. However, the best I can do is claim that the vast majority of us sin on a daily basis (my mouth is a one-way ticket to Hell most days - and that's just when I'm driving!), and that God's disdain for homosexuality is vastly overstated when put in context with other things (moneylending and profiting, thus by extension, capitalism; and, of course, poverty, which is fascinating to consider when put in the context of how often Americans blame the impoverished for their own circumstances - it's not as if Jesus only helped select poor folks, y'know).
 
Myke,

I won't press you on the validity of certain books over the other because I feel like we'd just be talking past each other. The belief in the verbal inspiration of the Scriptures is just that, a belief. It's not something that I can prove, but it is something I believe. But just know that from my standpoint, a Gospel is no more or less valid than a letter, or a prophetic book, or a psalm, or a historical book. In fact, they all hang on each other. There's difficult things in the Bible, no doubt, but the vast majority of those difficulties become relatively simple when viewed through the easier-to-understand parts of the Bible.

But to the point on sins, it's perhaps logical that one sin is more serious than another, but that's not the way that God sees it. To break one small part of the law isn't just breaking that little law, but ultimately is breaking the whole of it because it is a sin against God who gave the whole of the law (James 2:10 weighs in on this). So, there's no difference between uttering an improper use of God's name when the hammer slips and drives your thumb into the 2x4, the thought of lust that creeps into our mind as we watch a TV show, or if I went out and killed a man. Sin is sin; God has no degrees to sin like our legal system because he demands perfection, nothing less. Thus anything that tarnishes that pefection ruins the whole thing.

It's completely hopeless on our own; that's the whole reason that Jesus came.
 
In reading this topic, I found a neat site that many of you may already use/know of: http://bible.cc/

What's great about it is that, when you look up individual passages, it provides *many* translated versions, from King James to NIV and roughly 10 others. It's interesting.

Now, of course, I can understand the rationale in James 2:10 to some degree (sin is sin), but I can also appreciate the absurdity of it. Any sin is (I'm going to brutalize the spelling) 'hammartia,' a Greek word (I think) my theology instructor (a Jesuit who fancied Danzig) used. It simply reifies what you said about "perfection," in that hammartia is referred to in literature as a 'tragic mistake,' or in his phrase as one used in archery, when one falls "short of the mark." Anything that is not a bullseye is merely that, not a bullseye.

Now, of course, this begs the question: is the large majority of the world damned for engaging in persistent and unrelenting usury? Are the only people who are saved those who are most exploited under it? It's not as if, of course, people go to penance and tell their priest "Forgive me father, for I have sinned: I received sizable dividends in my stocks this fiscal quarter." It's such a routine part of our society that it is not only *not* a sin, it's considered (socially) sinful to suggest that capitalism is anything but the most brilliant of human social creations.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Now, of course, this begs the question: is the large majority of the world damned for engaging in persistent and unrelenting usury? Are the only people who are saved those who are most exploited under it? It's not as if, of course, people go to penance and tell their priest "Forgive me father, for I have sinned: I received sizable dividends in my stocks this fiscal quarter." It's such a routine part of our society that it is not only *not* a sin, it's considered (socially) sinful to suggest that capitalism is anything but the most brilliant of human social creations.[/quote]I'd be curious to know where there are passages that would refer to a captilist society as being sinful (or at least the trimmings of it). There is condemnation of charging interest on loans to those in need, especially with fellow Jews (Christians). In other words, not take advantage of a brother or sister in need. Much of the OT civil law was set in place to protect a person like this, along with the expansive (and at times complicated and confusing from a cultural perspective) kinsmen redeemer laws. The spirit of the law is thus, that we should look out and help our neighbor in any and all things. I don't think capitalism by necessity involves taking advantage. Profit isn't wrong; gouging is.

And you're dead on with hamartia. To sync up with James, God demands perfect bullseye every time. Anything that's not that is a complete failing.
 
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