Black generally tip less.

Well,racist or not you can add me to that group of non tipping people.Why should I tip you?You don't cook my food,you're just the middle man.I would eat more at said restaurant if I didn't have to be waited on.Just another barrier between me and my food.
 
Wait, you're telling me you're a lawyer and you're still working part time as a waiter? Please tell me this is to pay off your law school debt, which would be commendable.

And yes, that's racist.
 
Yeah I think it is racist too, yet I can't really find much to attack about those studies/surveys.

I agree that this is sort of attributing behavior to race, and therefore racist. Really though it is more of the reverse, attributing a race to a behavior.

No one is saying ALL black people don't tip, but those links are interesting and there is some particularly interesting discussion as to possible explanations on that second link.

The overwhelming majority of servers agree that there is a higher chance of getting stiffed from a black table than others. I'm curious as to the why. Some point out a possible self fulfilling prophecy.

Also is it possible to make any generalization about a race (even if true and only a generalization) without being racist?

@ DoK: Yeah I do have debt from lawschool, and despite having gone into public service (doesn't pay well) my law school and the fed. gov. don't have loan forgiveness. That's why I have to be a landlord and wait tables 2 days a week on the side.

@MrX, you're tipping for the service. You're paying for their work. They run your food to you, clean your table, take your order, fill your drink, tell you about the food and bullshit with you. We don't get paid hourly to do this ($2.35 an hour I think) so we rely almost exclusively on the tip as pay. That is why you should tip. So you don't tip anybody? Not a pizza guy either? I'd stop ordering pizza if you keep stiffing them, you might find something nasty in there.
 
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[quote name='pittpizza']yet I can't really find much to attack about those studies/surveys. [/QUOTE]
Normally the go-to to help explain what would otherwise be explained by racism is either socio-economic status and/or education. Surveys without any sort of controls arent very useful.
 
I worked with a black girl that didn't believe in tipping but I've also had black customers that have tipped me. The ones that are educated and not interested in taking part in the ghetto lifestyle are usually the tippers. I'm firmly of the belief that it's just ghetto people not tipping, I rarely expect anything from a customer I'd consider 'ghetto'.
 
OP you're a fucking racist and you know it. Not to mention that white racist America only gives poor paying jobs to African Americans, so whatever they did tip is likely a higher percentage of their annual salary compared to the whities. I bet the real problem here is that white racists like the OP feels both entitled to large tips for his shoddy low-life white trash work and scorn whatever his African American customers tip him to further elevate his irrational racist attitudes towards them.
 
Rumblebear I'm not racist. I'm actually extremely open minded, tolerant and liberal and anyone who has known me a while from these vs. threads can attest to that.

I've dated a black girl in college and had a black prom date. I myself am a minority, I'm extremely left leaning and open minded and tolerant. My best friends are a fellow jewish person (a CAG) and a buddist Indian. My best tenant is an older black woman. So please try to discuss this issue without throwing around insults. If you want to call the premise that black people tip less racist that's fine, and it may be (I think it is), but that doesn't make it untrue.

I do agree with the point that in "white racist America" it is harder for black people to earn the same wage for the same work, so there is something to be said for the point that their money is harder earned.

BTW the restaurant I work at is a high end seafood restaurant. Many of the part timer's there are professionals. We have two lawyers, a chiropractor, two teachers, and an insurance salesman who works for Northwestern mutual as well. It's good money and a nice way to supplement your income.
 
I'm just imagining one of the lawyers over hearing someone talking about a car wreck and doing the cheesiest slide over to them like "Heeeyyyyy, heard you're hurt, here's my card. Can I get you a refill on Mr. Pibb?" :rofl:
 
[quote name='IRHari']You're attributing behavior to race. Think that's the textbook definition of racism.[/QUOTE]

Curious - if I say that the majority of black people don't use tanning beds, is that textbook racism? Because, by your definition, it is.

I though textbook racism required thinking that one race is superior/one race is inferior.
 
When I waited tables I didn't notice any racial differences in tipping.

Only things I noticed were differences by class and age. If the people were clearly lower class and having a special meal out, the tip was probably low (and they wouldn't run up a high bill).

Age wasn't as clear cut but teenagers and college kids tended not to tip well (with exceptions for dates etc.) and the elderly didn't tend to tip well. Though the later was confounded with class as I got some big tips from very well dressed elderly customers.

And "tended" is the key word there as there's no sure fire way to tell who'll tip well and who won't. Just give everybody good service and shrug off the tightwads. Focus some more effort on big parties spending a ton of money, over the couple ordering the cheapest things on the menu though. Don't neglect them, but no sense in putting in a ton of extra effort for small bills.
 
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Anybody watch Breakout Kings? That Lloyd fella said that he's not a racist, he's a "factist" or something like that.
If there's a reason behind it, I don't think it's malicious. Especially given statistical data.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Curious - if I say that the majority of black people don't use tanning beds, is that textbook racism? Because, by your definition, it is.

I though textbook racism required thinking that one race is superior/one race is inferior.[/QUOTE]

Your example seems value-neutral and related to the actual melanin content of a person's skin. Not tipping is a negative behavior (implying greediness/stinginess) that one is linking directly to race. So this is obviously racist, but to say that racism requires the belief that one race is superior to another would discount other racial stereotypes that don't involve superiority beliefs overall (and would actually discount all of institutional racism, which doesn't require any specific individual beliefs).

So anyway, I would think that racism on an individual level only requires the attribution of some important (valued in one way or another) behavior to race, which carries the implication that one race is superior/inferior in that specific domain, but not necessarily that the entire race is superior/inferior.
 
Strange, my wife tips. Even on little things like espressos. If I'm paying $4 for a coffee drink why do I need to give the barista an extra .50 or so? $4 is already too expensive for me.

Thankfully, she corrects my bad behavior. I'm just cheap.

But, do black people tip? I don't know, go ask some. Some probably do, some don't.
 
"If a [waiter] says, 'I don't want to wait on that table because they're black or they're Hispanic, then they tend to give less service and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy,"
Click to expand...
In my experience (former pizza delivery) Hispanics tended to be better tippers.

As for Blacks, it wasn't that they tipped less, it's that the majority didn't tip at all.

True story, a Black driver was asked by one of my co-workers if he was having a good night. He said, "nope, too many Black customers." That raised a few eyebrows, to which he said, "hey, they don't tip me either."
 
[quote name='SpazX']Not tipping is a negative behavior (implying greediness/stinginess) that one is linking directly to race.[/QUOTE]

Am I alone in that I don't think a lack of tipping is a negative behavior?
 
Why would I explain how the tanning bed example meets the actual definition of racism? It meets the standard of "textbook racism" that you posted earlier ("attributing behavior to race") - but I disagree with your idea of racism.
 
It's not my idea, it's Merriam-Webster's definition of racism. There was an implication that not tipping = bad, I'm pretty sure most rational people saw that.

You brought up that tanning bed example. You should at least try to explain how it meets my definition of racism which is Merriam-Webster's definition of racism.
 
[quote name='IRHari']You're attributing behavior to race.[/QUOTE]

: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
Click to expand...

Big difference there
 
[quote name='rumblebear']OP you're a fucking racist and you know it. Not to mention that white racist America only gives poor paying jobs to African Americans, so whatever they did tip is likely a higher percentage of their annual salary compared to the whities. I bet the real problem here is that white racists like the OP feels both entitled to large tips for his shoddy low-life white trash work and scorn whatever his African American customers tip him to further elevate his irrational racist attitudes towards them.[/QUOTE]

I love you rumblebear.
 
What I find interesting about this whole post is that the OP decided to title this "Black People DONT tip" (emphasis added). But neither of the links provided talk about a lack of tipping, but rather the amount tipped. So, at best, the question/thesis/premise should be "Black people are lousy tippers". Either way, I think it's a stupid question to asked based on just the given links.

There could be any number of factors going into the study performed in the first link. Without knowing the methodology, I dont know if anything meaningful can actually be gleaned. Just some questions whose answers might mitigate the results

1) Were the black and white patrons of similar socio-(or more importantly) economic status?

2) Were the black and white people going to the same class of restaurants? (e.g. family mid-range vs high end)

3) Were the people attending on the same days of the week? (weekends vs weekdays)

4) Was there a similar amount of alcohol on the tabs?

5) Were the restaurants in similar locations? (mall v. neighborhood v. downtown)

And that's just off the top of my head.

As for the second link, it's just anecdotal evidence so I'll weight it accordingly.
 
[quote name='eldergamer']Thankfully, she corrects my bad behavior. I'm just cheap.[/QUOTE]
Nope, I'd say your normal, $4 is way too much for a cup of coffee, even if it did come out of a cat's ass (kopie lewak or whatever it's called), I don't blame you for not wanting to tip.

More on topic:
Someone on the first page hit the nail right on the head (don't feel like quoting): it's all a matter of class/income level, personality, etc, and has nothing to do with race. If you have low income and are splurging for eating out, you're not going to leave a very generous tip, and if you have a healthy income, you're more likely to leave a larger tip.

Even though I don't have a high income per-se, I still leave a tip based on how good the service is (not counting cooking time, the waiter can't control that) since tip is a part of the waiter's income. You have to earn it though; if you're extremely forgetful or just an ass, you're not going to get full tip.
 
[quote name='ROB64']...Even though I don't have a high income per-se, I still leave a tip based on how good the service is (not counting cooking time, the waiter can't control that) since tip is a part of the waiter's income. You have to earn it though; if you're extremely forgetful or just an ass, you're not going to get full tip.[/QUOTE]

Bingo! I tip based in level of service; fuck the servers who think they'll get an automatic 15% at least, you better work for it.

On another note, my best friend is black and doesn't tip. His reasoning is that its the servers job to do what they do and the establishment's (bar/restaurant) to compensate the server for their efforts. Admittedly, it's embarrassing going out with him because he'll insist on going to sit down restaurants with me but will always try not to tip, when I bring it to his attention; he may leave a $2.00 tip on a $45 tab. My coworker (also black) on the other hand tips well.
 
The definition is :

a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

Note that they use an "AND" not an "OR." There has to be a belief of superiority or inferiority for it to be racist which there isn't.

Since servers, delivery drivers, etc... make their money based on tips, I'm sure most believe that getting stiffed is a bad thing. But it is a far stretch to reach the conclusion that they're an inferior race because of that alone.

Unclebob a lack of tipping for excellent service is a pretty dick thing to do, so yeah it is a negative behavior. One should tip on the level of service received. It is unjust to tip someone who gave you great service if that is their main form of compensation.

There are some interesting points made in hostyl1's post, and even more interesting conversation about it in the one link. A big form of it may be that they just simply do not know or are not aware of "tipping culture" for lack of a better term. Lots of people might be like Ed's friend he describes and just assume the server is well paid by the restaurant. I think a lot of European restaurants are like this, where the bulk of the pay for the server comes from the establishment itself.

Let's see if I can change the title of the thread to "Black people generally tip less."
 
[quote name='pittpizza']Unclebob a lack of tipping for excellent service is a pretty dick thing to do, so yeah it is a negative behavior. One should tip on the level of service received. It is unjust to tip someone who gave you great service if that is their main form of compensation.[/QUOTE]

Do you tip the clerk at Best Buy for excellent service? Do you tip your cable provider for excellent service?

I was a paper boy for a couple of years when I was younger. I had one person that tipped me every month, on (or near) the first. It was pretty awesome. An extra $10/month. In December, I'd always get $10 on the first and another $25 the week of Christmas. Pretty cool. Christmas tips were even more awesome. The last year I was delivering (roughly 110 papers/day - had two routes by this time) I'd clear over $1,000 in tips during the month of December. Bought my N64 with tips.

The whole time, I never, ever thought anything negative about those who didn't tip (well, except McDonald's... but that's only because they had table tents advertising their gift certificates as "great gifts" for a variety of people, including the paper boy... thought it was funny they didn't even give me a free soda or something...) Tips were a great bonus, but never anything I required or expected. And if you lined up 10 of my customers, told me five tipped every year and five never tipped once, I wouldn't be able to tell which were which. Actually, I probably wouldn't be able to tell you if they were even my customers. Sure didn't think any of them were "dicks" for not leaving a tip...
 
[quote name='SpazX']That one says "usually," so that's two dictionaries with two slightly different definitions. OH MY GOD MY WHOLE WORLD IS IN CHAOS.[/QUOTE]

Is tipping a "cultural or individual achievement"?
 
Since "achievement" doesn't necessarily mean anything more than "something you did," then yes, tipping is something that one does. It is indeed a thing that one must accomplish. Though you can keep playing the dictionary game if you wish.

If you think tipping means absolutely nothing and has no value attached to it then you wouldn't make the distinction, you wouldn't care, you wouldn't start a thread. Not tipping is a negative behavior pittpizza intends to ascribe to an entire race of people. I don't see how "racist" is an inaccurate descriptor for statements that ascribe people of a certain race with a certain negative behavior.
 
[quote name='IRHari']You're attributing behavior to race. Think that's the textbook definition of racism.[/QUOTE]

you dont know wtf you are talking about... attributing a behavior to a culture can be a stereotype but if its generally found to be true its not a racist one.

black culture in america is VERY much a culture.

stay ignorant bro.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Since "achievement" doesn't necessarily mean anything more than "something you did," then yes, tipping is something that one does. It is indeed a thing that one must accomplish. Though you can keep playing the dictionary game if you wish.[/quote]

That's a very broad definition of achievement.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/achievement
something accomplished, especially by superior ability, special effort, great courage, etc.; a great or heroic deed
Click to expand...

If you think tipping means absolutely nothing and has no value attached to it then you wouldn't make the distinction, you wouldn't care, you wouldn't start a thread.
Click to expand...

And thus, I didn't.
 
Spaz this: "Not tipping is a negative behavior pittpizza intends to ascribe to an entire race of people." is not exactly true.

What I'm saying is that a few studies have found that black people generally tip less than others. You really can't overstate the importance of the word "generally" in that premise, because it is not an entire race of people. I'm not intending to ascribe or prove anything, I am intending to discuss it, discuss possible reasons for it, and see what opinions are on whether the conclusions reached are racist.

Unclebob, none of your examples touched on those types of people whose pay is almost exclusively made up of tips (pizza delivery and waiters and waitresses). These are the jobs I think it is ignorant not to tip when the service was great. I don't tip for coffee, best buy, or anything really where the actual experience of getting served isn't key. I do ALWAYS tip pizza delivery and waiters and waitresses when they've earned it with good service.
 
I'm not sure if it's limited to Illinois or not, but in Illinois, a business is required to pay employees a minimum wage - including tipped employees. Here, we have a "tip wage", which is lower than the regular minimum wage - but here's the catch - if the amount of tips + tip wage doesn't equal or exceed minimum wage, then the employer is required to equalize the pay so that the employee is paid minimum wage.

Thus, with or without your tip, the waitress at the restaurant likely makes a similar (or higher) wage to the clerk at Best Buy. So the excuse of "pay is almost exclusively made up of tips" doesn't fly very well... Many, many people work jobs that pay minimum wage and don't receive tips.
 
if you guys understood what a stressful shit job that being a server was you would tip, without tips they are paid minimum wage (which we all know is jack shit) and in general the amount of running around they have to do and asshole customers they have to deal with make it a terrible job for min wage.

the only reason they can make a decent living is tips, if you are a server and no one gave tips you pretty much have one of the worst jobs in the US.

I deal with a lot of customer service issues and the amount of assholes one has to deal with in a day is typically insanely high.

if you dont tip and you get waited on in a restaurant you are probably one of those assholes im talking about anyway.
 
Yeah, not tipping for decent service (much less for great service) is a scum bag thing to do. But we've had that argument many times before on here and it's a lost cause on a site catered to cheapskates.
 
[quote name='retrad']if you guys understood what a stressful shit job that being a server was you would tip, without tips they are paid minimum wage (which we all know is jack shit) and in general the amount of running around they have to do and asshole customers they have to deal with make it a terrible job for min wage.

the only reason they can make a decent living is tips, if you are a server and no one gave tips you pretty much have one of the worst jobs in the US.

I deal with a lot of customer service issues and the amount of assholes one has to deal with in a day is typically insanely high.

if you dont tip and you get waited on in a restaurant you are probably one of those assholes im talking about anyway.[/QUOTE]

Which one of these things doesn't apply to the sales clerk at Best Buy/Target/Walmart/Kmart/etc.? Because he has to put up with many of these same things and he doesn't get tips. Are you an asshole for not tipping the sales clerk at the stores of your choice?
 
The sales clerk gets paid a lot higher than the 2-3 dollars an hour that servers get. Unclebob you continually obfuscate restaurant servers with service jobs in other areas. What don't you understand.

Waiters and waitresses work essentially ONLY for tips. Everyone else you mention works ONLY for their salary and a tip is a bonus. A tip is not a bonus to a waiter, it is his only form of pay besides 2/hour.
 
[quote name='pittpizza']The sales clerk gets paid a lot higher than the 2-3 dollars an hour that servers get. Unclebob you continually obfuscate restaurant servers with service jobs in other areas. What don't you understand.

Waiters and waitresses work essentially ONLY for tips. Everyone else you mention works ONLY for their salary and a tip is a bonus. A tip is not a bonus to a waiter, it is his only form of pay besides 2/hour.[/QUOTE]

I understand completely. Again, I can only speak for Illinois, but if an employee doesn't make enough between the tip wage and tips, the employer is required to equalize their pay - paying them minimum wage - thus the Illinois Waitress makes the same (or more) than a sales clerk that makes minimum wage - every single time. So your point is invalid.

*edit*
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/wages/wagestips.htm

If the employee’s tips combined with the employer’s direct wages of at least $2.13 per hour do not equal the federal minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference.
Click to expand...

It's a Federal Law, therefore it applies in every single state. The tipped waitress will always make as much as or more than the minimum wage sales clerk.
 
[quote name='retrad']you dont know wtf you are talking about... attributing a behavior to a culture can be a stereotype but if its generally found to be true its not a racist one.

black culture in america is VERY much a culture.

stay ignorant bro.[/QUOTE]

I said attributing behavior to *race*, I never said culture. They're not the same thing.

And I concede that I should have specified that the textbook definition includes inferiority of one race. Thought that was implied but I guess I need to make it explicit.
 
[quote name='pittpizza']The sales clerk gets paid a lot higher than the 2-3 dollars an hour that servers get. Unclebob you continually obfuscate restaurant servers with service jobs in other areas. What don't you understand.

Waiters and waitresses work essentially ONLY for tips. Everyone else you mention works ONLY for their salary and a tip is a bonus. A tip is not a bonus to a waiter, it is his only form of pay besides 2/hour.[/QUOTE]

There's another difference besides wages (and that is one and most sales clerks make a bit more than minimum wage in my experience).

People go out to eat to be SERVED. We go out so we don't have to cook for ourselves, and we go to places with wait staff to be served. Tips are how we pay for service.

I don't go to Best Buy or the grocery store etc. to be served, so I don't need to tip as I'm not paying for any service. I can find what I'm looking for on my own, so I seldom use the sales staff on the floor. The cashier isn't their to serve me, but to just take my money. I prefer places with self checkouts personally as it saves interacting with someone.
 
Hit the nail on the head, Dmaul.

And before Bob says, "they serve you at McDonalds!" we're talking about full, prolonged service. I tip my hairdresser, I tip my waiters and waitresses, I tip my bartender and I tip my tattoo artist.
 
Maybe the original stereotype about tipping is true? Kind of like how us black guys have gigantic...feet.

All I know is the person that brings me food is getting tipped well. Never piss off someone bringing something to you that is going to enter your digestive system. The next time could be an adventure.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']All I know is the person that brings me food is getting tipped well. Never piss off someone bringing something to you that is going to enter your digestive system. The next time could be an adventure.[/QUOTE]

What if the food sucks? What if the service sucks? Is there a system you use to determine how much if any you tip?
 
[quote name='IRHari']What if the food sucks? What if the service sucks? Is there a system you use to determine how much if any you tip?[/QUOTE]
If the service is good and the food sucks, I tip well(20%), I just never go back. Most times they ask you how your food is, I answer honestly. I've sent beers back to the bar for being DOA without issue. If the service is bad and the food is bad, I'll leave roughly 10% and never go back.

I pull a Toucan Sam though and follow my nose to determine if the food smells edible before I go into a place. If I walk into a diner and don't like how it smells, I walk my ass right out so I don't have to tip anybody.
 
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