Format War - HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray - *Its Over...Toshiba Swings White Flag*

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I don't know if Microsoft will get a BR add-on. I know they won't be making any more HD-DVD add-ons anymore, that's for sure.
 
I don't think MS is too keen on the idea of a BD add-on, but probably moreso than Sony, even. If they sold a $150-200 BD player, what 360 owner would buy a PS3?
 
So BR now has a huge advantage in the format war. What would this mean for next generation gaming if BR wins? Would Nintendo and MS develop their next game systems using Sony's BR format medium? The PS3 didn't exactly turn heads as a gaming system but as a strategy to help get BR in as many homes as possible and influencing the movie studios, it has been brilliant. With this announcement, I may finally pick up the 80 gb PS3 to use mainly as a BR DVD player with the benefits of being able to play some games with it.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I have no idea, Snake.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I wasnt directing the question at only you.

Your idea above on the BR player from MS is probably their reasoning for potentially offering one... I would have probably went the 360 route if that would have been available...

I think MS has to do something fast to thwart the jump on the PS3 from the mass market..
 
[quote name='MadFlava']So BR now has a huge advantage in the format war. What would this mean for next generation gaming if BR wins? Would Nintendo and MS develop their next game systems using Sony's BR format medium?[/quote] I think the next-gen Microsoft (but not necessarily Nintendo) system will have the capability of playing back Blu-Ray movies should the war go the way we all think it will. But they might not use it for games. Here's my rationale for that:

1. Shipping games on BD means paying their competitor for every game that gets released on the console, something I think MS would frown upon.
2. If HD DVD loses the war, it might put an upper limit on the number of people who sport HD readers and ESPECIALLY burners.
3. Therefore making widespread piracy among average customers somewhat less likely than if they're using the "established standard" for data storage.

Now obviously obfuscation isn't the best method of content security, but it could make up one layer. Combine that with the disc royalties going to an univolved party (ergo, not making your own market more difficult than it needs to be), the availability of TL51 for equivalent data storage capability and an ever-so-slightly-faster data transfer rate (1.6% at the same "spin rate" with 15GB layers, 15% faster with 17GB layers), and it might make more business sense for MS to use a combo drive in the next Xbox rather than swtich whole hog to BD. Movies on BD (because MS has no control over that) and games on HD DVD ROM. It would also provide movie backwards compatibility for the few hundred thousand people who bought into HD DVD this gen with the addon. A small bit of goodwill, but every little bit counts.

Just a thought.
 
[quote name='MadFlava']So BR now has a huge advantage in the format war. What would this mean for next generation gaming if BR wins? Would Nintendo and MS develop their next game systems using Sony's BR format medium?[/QUOTE]

Bingo. They'll either
1) go digital distribution only (which, given me XBLA DRM experiences, would mean I'm stayin' the *fuck* away from a DD-only MS console; Nintendo's been quite good, OTOH)
2) spend lotsa money on a proprietary disc format (the least likely scenario)
3) stick with DVD (I would unsurprised to see Nintendo do this)
4) go with BD

If higher speed BD players become more readily available and cheaper, there would be no reason whatsoever to not go with BD next gen, except to spite Sony/the BDA. The DVD forum makes money for each console/disc sold, of course, so depending on the costs, it would be going to the BDA instead next time around. It is brilliant for Sony financially, even if they have squandered a great deal of goodwill this generation.

Then again, part of me can't help but wonder if the "HOLY CRAP SO EXPENSIVE!" gut reaction of many would-be PS3 buyers will be set at ease once the format war is 100%, without question over. Since part of the cost at the moment is a "risky" investment in a BD player, which may or may not have been a dead and useless format. Hmm.

[quote name='geko29']I think the next-gen Microsoft (but not necessarily Nintendo) system will have the capability of playing back Blu-Ray movies should the war go the way we all think it will. But they might not use it for games. Here's my rationale for that:

1. Shipping games on BD means paying their competitor for every game that gets released on the console, something I think MS would frown upon.
2. If HD DVD loses the war, it might put an upper limit on the number of people who sport HD readers and ESPECIALLY burners.
3. Therefore making widespread piracy among average customers somewhat less likely than if they're using the "established standard" for data storage.[/QUOTE]

Good rationale, except similar rationale was used by Sega w/ the Dreamcast. "Noone will have a GD-ROM burner!" As it turned out, it didn't matter that nobody had one, because piracy was vicious and rampant. A dual format drive using HD DVD ROM for games, but w/ BD playback capabilities, seems to be quite ripe for the same kind of piracy (since people just burned GD-ROM rips onto CD-ROMs). I do agree that MS is the most likely company to do something that might cost them or harm them, just to spite Sony.
 
Danish tech company Bang & Olufsen had a small press reception yesterday evening at CES. I attended with a couple dozen others. In the question-answer session I asked about Blu-ray support since no HD DVD or BD players had been announced (although players from both sides had been used in their demos of their new displays).

Peter Petersen, B&O's Chief Technology Officer, said they had been planning on making a combo player but after Friday's Warner's announcement they have dropped plans to include HD DVD and now will develop only a BD player. He said it would be available in 2009.

Edit: Update to include name of B&O spokesperson.
Click to expand...
From AVS.
 
Warner Bros Entertainment president Kevin Tusjihara announced that BD versions of Batman Begins and The Matrix Trilogy are being "prepped."

From HDD.
 
[quote name='LinkinPrime']Hmm...if that's true I may not even get a PS3 for a couple more years...[/quote]Myke's preditions am win.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Warner Bros Entertainment president Kevin Tusjihara announced that BD versions of Batman Begins and The Matrix Trilogy are being "prepped."

From HDD.[/QUOTE]

WOO HOO!
 
[quote name='MadFlava']So BR now has a huge advantage in the format war. What would this mean for next generation gaming if BR wins? Would Nintendo and MS develop their next game systems using Sony's BR format medium? The PS3 didn't exactly turn heads as a gaming system but as a strategy to help get BR in as many homes as possible and influencing the movie studios, it has been brilliant. With this announcement, I may finally pick up the 80 gb PS3 to use mainly as a BR DVD player with the benefits of being able to play some games with it.[/quote]

They'll both either go with BD or MS will stay with DVD and Nintendo will stick with making their own proprietary formats (the Wii DOES NOT use DVD's).
 
[quote name='SuppaMan']They'll both either go with BD or MS will stay with DVD and Nintendo will stick with making their own proprietary formats (the Wii DOES NOT use DVD's).[/quote]

Even if HD DVD doesn't make it, MS could still use HD DVD discs for the next XBOX360. After all, if they use Blu-Ray wouldn't that give Sony money per unit/per disc or something like that?
 
[quote name='LinkinPrime']Even if HD DVD doesn't make it, MS could still use HD DVD discs for the next XBOX360. After all, if they use Blu-Ray wouldn't that give Sony money per unit/per disc or something like that?[/quote]

I have not been able to find royalty fee information in Google, but I believe it would be around $1 a disc or so. Although Sony would love that from MS, I doubt Microsoft would be up for that.

Lets cross our fingers for Xbox720 going SNES-cartridge style. :lol:
 
[quote name='LinkinPrime']Even if HD DVD doesn't make it, MS could still use HD DVD discs for the next XBOX360. After all, if they use Blu-Ray wouldn't that give Sony money per unit/per disc or something like that?[/QUOTE]

Yea, Sony would get royalties. But if BD does in fact end up winning, it would probably hurt them not to include BDs movie playing capabilities.

[quote name='SuppaMan']They'll both either go with BD or MS will stay with DVD and Nintendo will stick with making their own proprietary formats (the Wii DOES NOT use DVD's).[/QUOTE]

Actually, I thought the Wii did use DVDs. It does not, however, have the ability to watch DVD movies. I think, for some reason, taking out the movie playing capability somehow saves them money on royalties? I believe this is also why MS required xbox owners to buy a DVD remote to access the DVD capabilities. The technology was already in the box, but maybe only royalties were only collected for those who actually used the DVD player (only those who bought the remote). Not sure if this is true or not.
 
[quote name='dallow']Does Sony still get anything for CDs and to a smaller extent, DVDs?[/quote] I think CD royalties (4.5 cents per disc, split with Philips) ran out in 2003. Not sure about the DVD situation, but Sony has very little IP in the format, so they probably only get a tiny fraction of the royalties that they did with CD.
 
[quote name='LinkinPrime']Even if HD DVD doesn't make it, MS could still use HD DVD discs for the next XBOX360. After all, if they use Blu-Ray wouldn't that give Sony money per unit/per disc or something like that?[/quote]

I think people expect their game systems to play the most widely available DVD's right out of the box these days. If BR becomes the standard, then their will more incentive for people to purchase a game system that will work with their BR library. The industry pushed the consoles to become these all in one media boxes so it would be rather hard to remove movie playback capability from them when people expect them that have it.
 
[quote name='MadFlava']I think people expect their game systems to play the most widely available DVD's right out of the box these days. If BR becomes the standard, then their will more incentive for people to purchase a game system that will work with their BR library. The industry pushed the consoles to become these all in one media boxes so it would be rather hard to remove movie playback capability from them when people expect them that have it.[/quote]
Blu-Ray and HD DVD playback are not mutually exclusive features.
 
[quote name='dallow']MS's next system should be media less and ship with 2TB of storage.[/QUOTE]

As long as it's BC with all the current XBLA games I already can't play because of their strict DRM issues and XBL being fucked up, I'll buy it in a heartbeat!
 
[quote name='dallow']I'd love for future systems to be solid state.[/QUOTE]
Really, how long until all games are being issued on flash drives or something similar? I'd like to see it. Spinning discs FTL.
 
[quote name='powercreep']Really, how long until all games are being issued on flash drives or something similar? I'd like to see it. Spinning discs FTL.[/quote]Costs are still too high.

I don't think we'll ever see something like that.
If anything, they'll just be HDD based systems and download only games.
 
[quote name='dpatel']Yea, Sony would get royalties. But if BD does in fact end up winning, it would probably hurt them not to include BDs movie playing capabilities.



Actually, I thought the Wii did use DVDs. It does not, however, have the ability to watch DVD movies. I think, for some reason, taking out the movie playing capability somehow saves them money on royalties? I believe this is also why MS required xbox owners to buy a DVD remote to access the DVD capabilities. The technology was already in the box, but maybe only royalties were only collected for those who actually used the DVD player (only those who bought the remote). Not sure if this is true or not.[/quote]


No they are just considered Wii optical discs. Nintendo didn't want to pay royalties for DVD's (hence the GCN being it's own format also). They cite piracy as another reason, but the biggest is obviously they just want to control everything to max their profit margin.



MS's next system won't be discless. First off most consumers wouldn't have that anyways. Secondly, the technology PERIOD isn't there and won't be there. Thirdly, even with the crappy technology available to do that, it's costs would be through the roof.


They will stick to DVD's or move BRD's, otherwise their next system will be a colossal failure. They may very well have to move to BRD's if BR really takes over (which in all figures it should) because studios will pressure them to abandon DVD due to size constraints.




No physical media is a LONG, LONG ways away. It's a fact.


Who ever mentioned flash drives....REALLY? Come on, that's one, if not the the most expensive consumer memory drive out there. Would you like each game to ship on one memory unit and costs $5000? (do you realize how big the flash drive would have to be? I don't even think storage wise they can even come close enough in the next 5 years to make a flash drive that large possibly period, let alone cost next to nothing). Besides that's just stupid consumers wouldn't go for it. Why switch from discs all of a sudden to tiny memory unit sticks that are more easily lost?




I hate to break it to people but a few TB's of storage is nothing. No physical media needs a breakthrough beyond TB's and not only that but coming much cheaper also. At the same time internet speeds to multiply by about 100,000 and still cost the same as they do now before it even has a chance of being accepted.
 
Uhh, read my posts.

I said I'd love to see solid state games again, and also said costs are too high for that too happen save a miracle in tech engineering.

A couple TB seems fine to me for downloading games.
99% of games out there are less than 9GB.
 
[quote name='dallow']Uhh, read my posts.

I said I'd love to see solid state games again, and also said costs are too high for that too happen save a miracle in tech engineering.

A couple TB seems fine to me for downloading games.
99% of games out there are less than 9GB.[/quote]

I wasn't singling out you or even going at you.


Also that will change exponentially, especially by the time the next batch of consoles hit. Games (minus XBL/PSN stuff) will all be 10GBs+.
 
not to mention retailers aren't going to have it either



when digital happens, it's going to happen sort of slowly, but also all in one shot, otherwise it wont work

everybody has to be on board for the switch


for that to happen, all the technology has to be there, and it has to be EXTREMELY mass market


the stuff downloaded now? its all niche, hell even itunes is niche, all it is is an extra way to make a bunch of money even with inevititable failure (itunes/music being the only thing over time that won't fail in a sense, but will just grow)


games/movies/tv/etc all that's to large, its to much


consumers and retailers wont have it


MS can pimp it all they want but its not happening, not for a long time (notice how Sony's actually backed off of digital distribution quite a bit, they are still going to do it, interested in it, and have done it to an extent, but its nowhere near the frontlines when talking of how it used to be when kutaragi was a major head in sony and on the frontlines)
 
I just got done watching Sunshine on Blu-ray. Fantastic movie with amazing PQ and sound. A must own disc IMO. Danny Boyle impresses me more and more with every movie I see of his.
 
[quote name='rodeojones903']I just got done watching Sunshine on Blu-ray. Fantastic movie with amazing PQ and sound. A must own disc IMO. Danny Boyle impresses me more and more with every movie I see of his.[/QUOTE]I just saw the preview for that last night, but what persuaded me from buying it tonight was the fact that it was direct to DVD. Reading your comment definately makes me want to change my mind.
 
[quote name='TimPV3']I just saw the preview for that last night, but what persuaded me from buying it tonight was the fact that it was direct to DVD. Reading your comment definately makes me want to change my mind.[/QUOTE]

It played at the art house theater near my house, but i never got a chance to see it then, played for a while as well.
Not direct to dvd
 
[quote name='MadFlava']So BR now has a huge advantage in the format war. What would this mean for next generation gaming if BR wins? Would Nintendo and MS develop their next game systems using Sony's BR format medium? The PS3 didn't exactly turn heads as a gaming system but as a strategy to help get BR in as many homes as possible and influencing the movie studios, it has been brilliant. With this announcement, I may finally pick up the 80 gb PS3 to use mainly as a BR DVD player with the benefits of being able to play some games with it.[/quote] I believe only the 40GB is 65nm atm. Somebody correct me if I'm misinformed.
You may be better getting the 40GB and just upgrading the hardware.

I'm waiting until they release it w/ the Dual Shock 3s. Hopefully they'll have a model w/ memory card readers & 65nm by then. I don't really care about the Wi-Fi since I'll be using a router client/bridge setup & 802.11a.

But I'm curious, does anybody know if the PS3's internal wifi card supports WPA2?

[quote name='mykevermin']Should I feel blessed that I got one this time, then? Don't give me your effete "too good for you" pap, and spare the thesaurus. Don't take it personal, and we'll get along fine. Probably never walk on the beach at sunset holding hands; but, hey, not everyone wins the lottery.



Well, looks like you'll be stuck with upscaling DVDs for the next 7-8 years then, no?[/quote] Considering the amount you post, you seem to be here more for companionship than information. If being sarcastic & rude is what you thrive on, consider yourself ignored. I don't need to explain why.

[quote name='MadFlava']So BR now has a huge advantage in the format war. What would this mean for next generation gaming if BR wins? Would Nintendo and MS develop their next game systems using Sony's BR format medium? The PS3 didn't exactly turn heads as a gaming system but as a strategy to help get BR in as many homes as possible and influencing the movie studios, it has been brilliant. With this announcement, I may finally pick up the 80 gb PS3 to use mainly as a BR DVD player with the benefits of being able to play some games with it.[/quote] Well, HD DVD will not die. It's China's official format. So plants will still exist. And I believe the format will still exist for a long time. Betamax was still available in the US even 10 years after it's launch. It was hard to find though. But the market is much more global now, so I don't see it being a problem.

Nintendo has never really worried about movie playback, so they'll probably go with whatever's cheapest & can fulfill their need. MS will probably include Blu-ray if it saturates the market (over 80% sales). Then again, using HD DVD would help stunt piracy if it became a niche format. They'll probably support both, since it doesn't look like Blu-ray's going away. Speculating at this point isn't easy.

edit: seems Mr. Geko29 beat me to the punch. :p The dual format drive is the most likely IMO, since if they still want to support DVD playback, it would only cost about a dollar more to add HD DVD support.

[quote name='geko29']I think the next-gen Microsoft (but not necessarily Nintendo) system will have the capability of playing back Blu-Ray movies should the war go the way we all think it will. But they might not use it for games. Here's my rationale for that:

1. Shipping games on BD means paying their competitor for every game that gets released on the console, something I think MS would frown upon.
2. If HD DVD loses the war, it might put an upper limit on the number of people who sport HD readers and ESPECIALLY burners.
3. Therefore making widespread piracy among average customers somewhat less likely than if they're using the "established standard" for data storage.

Now obviously obfuscation isn't the best method of content security, but it could make up one layer. Combine that with the disc royalties going to an univolved party (ergo, not making your own market more difficult than it needs to be), the availability of TL51 for equivalent data storage capability and an ever-so-slightly-faster data transfer rate (1.6% at the same "spin rate" with 15GB layers, 15% faster with 17GB layers), and it might make more business sense for MS to use a combo drive in the next Xbox rather than swtich whole hog to BD. Movies on BD (because MS has no control over that) and games on HD DVD ROM. It would also provide movie backwards compatibility for the few hundred thousand people who bought into HD DVD this gen with the addon. A small bit of goodwill, but every little bit counts.

Just a thought.[/quote]
[quote name='powercreep']Really, how long until all games are being issued on flash drives or something similar? I'd like to see it. Spinning discs FTL.[/quote] Toshiba's been working on some promising solid state tech. They invented it & they've been at the forefront since. If the stacking version they're working on becomes production ready it could revolutionize modern computing. The amount of storage would skyrocket, making the value much higher & the adoption amongst the PC industry as well.

[quote name='rodeojones903']I just got done watching Sunshine on Blu-ray. Fantastic movie with amazing PQ and sound. A must own disc IMO. Danny Boyle impresses me more and more with every movie I see of his.[/quote] I had mixed reactions to that movie. Some parts I was genuinely involved with the story, others I was left scratching my head at the implausibility. It's not really a movie I could contemplate without ruining the enjoyment.
 
[quote name='dallow']Uhh, read my posts.

I said I'd love to see solid state games again, and also said costs are too high for that too happen save a miracle in tech engineering.

A couple TB seems fine to me for downloading games.
99% of games out there are less than 9GB.[/QUOTE]

I see it happening for portable gaming. Namely Flash.
 
[quote name='TURBO']Considering the amount you post, you seem to be here more for companionship than information. If being sarcastic & rude is what you thrive on, consider yourself ignored. I don't need to explain why.[/QUOTE]

 
[quote name='jonlubbe']It played at the art house theater near my house, but i never got a chance to see it then, played for a while as well.
Not direct to dvd[/QUOTE]

i saw it in theaters too

i think it was a small release tho, like 400 theaters for 2 weeks and then 100 or less for a couple others

in the UK it did more business

i recommend it too, i didn't have the same problems with the ending everyone else seems to have
 
[quote name='TURBO']Considering the amount you post, you seem to be here more for companionship than information. If being sarcastic & rude is what you thrive on, consider yourself ignored. I don't need to explain why.[/quote]:rofl:

[quote name='sarang']I see it happening for portable gaming. Namely Flash.[/QUOTE]Well yeah, the only portable system using, or that has used an optical disc is the PSP.
 
I expect both to go neutral before going BD-exclusive; but I expect neither to remain HD-exclusive for much longer. The Warner rumors began rumbling three or more months ago, so I think it's not in anyone's best interests to hold your breath on this one. It'll happen eventually, though.
 
I love how on netflix all the hd movies are on either long or very long wait.

Stupid people who get 1 month things from friends.
 
5:00 pm ET January 10, 2008 -- Universal Studios has officially dispelled the rumors from Variety that it will drop HD DVD and switch to Blu-ray.
"Contrary to unsubstantiated rumors from unnamed sources, Universal's current plan is to continue to support the HD DVD format," said Ken Graffeo, executive vice president of HD strategic marketing for Universal Studios Home Entertainment and also co-president of the HD DVD Promotional Group.
The response would have come sooner, but many HD DVD executives were on flights home from CES when the story from Variety broke.
Click to expand...

http://www.betanews.com/article/HD_DVD_Universal_expected_to_deny_Bluray_rumors/1199974983

Even Universal makes announcements...when the fuck is Toshiba going to say something encouraging?
 
How is that encouraging?
That's what Warner was saying right before their announcement.

Also, I like that neither Universal nor Paramount have said "HD DVD only".
I expect Paramount neutral within the month, and Universal shortly thereafter.
 
[quote name='dallow']How is that encouraging?
That's what Warner was saying right before their announcement.

Also, I like that neither Universal nor Paramount have said "HD DVD only".
I expect Paramount neutral within the month, and Universal shortly thereafter.[/quote]

I didn't say Universal's statment was encouraging...just saying when is Toshiba going to try to confort their customer base.
 
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