GGT 161 thinks everything Joel says is creepy

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[quote name='ihadFG']I really don't like the Paragon/Renegade system in Mass Effect. It stops people from playing how they want to play, and instead encourages them to follow one of two paths. And the way it locks you out of certain options based on that never really sat well with me.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.

And on that same subject, I was playing a morally gray playthrough of Fallout 3. Basically I just did what would benefit me in each situation. So I go to the slave camp and the dude wants me to pay him 500 caps to get in. No way that's happening, so I just shot him in the face with my combat shotgun. "You've gained karma!!" Uh, but I wanted to kill him because I enjoy killing and didn't want to give his punk ass 500 caps. . .So I slaughtered that whole camp, getting positive karma the whole way for killing people without restraint or reason.

Love videogame morality. ^__^
 
[quote name='ihadFG']I really don't like the Paragon/Renegade system in Mass Effect. It stops people from playing how they want to play, and instead encourages them to follow one of two paths. And the way it locks you out of certain options based on that never really sat well with me.[/QUOTE]

I can see that. But I like that it leads to two distinctly different paths through the game. But I guess you could still get that while allowing more gray area as long as being 100% one way or the other still had the same type of impacts on the story etc.

I'm not big on replaying games period, but I did replay ME2 to do total paragon and total renegade as that (and playing with very different classes--soldier and adept) made it feel different enough to be worth the time vs. moving on to something else.
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']Exactly.

And on that same subject, I was playing a morally gray playthrough of Fallout 3. Basically I just did what would benefit me in each situation. So I go to the slave camp and the dude wants me to pay him 500 caps to get in. No way that's happening, so I just shot him in the face with my combat shotgun. "You've gained karma!!" Uh, but I wanted to kill him because I enjoy killing and didn't want to give his punk ass 500 caps. . .So I slaughtered that whole camp, getting positive karma the whole way for killing people without restraint or reason.

Love videogame morality. ^__^[/QUOTE]

At least in Fallout your Karma doesn't really matter all that much. But what I really want is for my RPGs to not assign karma points to certain actions. Let me determine what I think is right and what's not. That's one of the main reasons why I like Dragon Age and The Witcher more than other WRPGs. Also, I'm a lot more accepting of reputation systems based on how certain groups would perceive my character.


[quote name='dmaul1114']I can see that. But I like that it leads to two distinctly different paths through the game. But I guess you could still get that while allowing more gray area as long as being 100% one way or the other still had the same type of impacts on the story etc.

I'm not big on replaying games period, but I did replay ME2 to do total paragon and total renegade as that (and playing with very different classes--soldier and adept) made it feel different enough to be worth the time vs. moving on to something else.[/QUOTE]

If anything, I think making more choices viable would only increase replayability.

[quote name='corrosivefrost']Radiant Silvergun, Guwange, and Bangai-O HD are all 400 points this week.
Any of them worthwhile?[/QUOTE]

All of them. Time for me to pick up Guwange and Bangai-O.
 
[quote name='ihadFG']
If anything, I think making more choices viable would only increase replayability.
[/QUOTE]

I suppose. I mainly play RPG games to experience the story, so I seldom replay the really open ones like Oblivion and what not as the stories tend to be weak due to all the choice the player has.

The Mass Effect games are among my favorites because they have arguably the most compelling story in any game series I've played.
 
[quote name='corrosivefrost']Radiant Silvergun, Guwange, and Bangai-O HD are all 400 points this week.
Any of them worthwhile?[/QUOTE]
All of them are worth it.

Radiant Silvergun is 600 points though.

[quote name='ihadFG']At least in Fallout your Karma doesn't really matter all that much. But what I really want is for my RPGs to not assign karma points to certain actions. Let me determine what I think is right and what's not. That's one of the main reasons why I like Dragon Age and The Witcher more than other WRPGs. Also, I'm a lot more accepting of reputation systems based on how certain groups would perceive my character.

If anything, I think making more choices viable would only increase replayability.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I like it when a game doesn't just scream "HEY YOU MADE A GOOD/EVIL DECISION" at ever turn. Make it ambiguous so I'm constantly second guessing what I'm doing, rather than making everything black and white.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I suppose. I mainly play RPG games to experience the story, so I seldom replay the really open ones like Oblivion and what not as the stories tend to be weak due to all the choice the player has.

The Mass Effect games are among my favorites because they have arguably the most compelling story in any game series I've played.[/QUOTE]

They wouldn't have to change the story structure at all, or even the actual choices really. I just don't want the game restricting me to a path and defining everything as good or evil.
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']Exactly.

And on that same subject, I was playing a morally gray playthrough of Fallout 3. Basically I just did what would benefit me in each situation. So I go to the slave camp and the dude wants me to pay him 500 caps to get in. No way that's happening, so I just shot him in the face with my combat shotgun. "You've gained karma!!" Uh, but I wanted to kill him because I enjoy killing and didn't want to give his punk ass 500 caps. . .So I slaughtered that whole camp, getting positive karma the whole way for killing people without restraint or reason.

Love videogame morality. ^__^[/QUOTE]

lmao

BOOM HEADSHOT +1 Karma *I am a nice guy* ^_^
 
[quote name='ihadFG']They wouldn't have to change the story structure at all, or even the actual choices really. I just don't want the game restricting me to a path and defining everything as good or evil.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Josh is all about dat grey area.
There was a lot of grey area in last week's episode of dexter.
wut.
 
[quote name='ihadFG']They wouldn't have to change the story structure at all, or even the actual choices really. I just don't want the game restricting me to a path and defining everything as good or evil.[/QUOTE]

This is how I feel playing the game:

Shopkeeper: Take this object, but beware it carries a terrible curse!
Homer: Ooh, that's bad.
Shopkeeper: But it comes with a free frogurt!
Homer: That's good.
Shopkeeper: The frogurt is also cursed.
Homer: That's bad.
Shopkeeper: But you get your choice of toppings.
Homer: That's good!
Shopkeeper: The toppings contain potassium benzoate.
Shopkeeper: ...That's bad.
Homer: Can I go now?
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I suppose. I mainly play RPG games to experience the story, so I seldom replay the really open ones like Oblivion and what not as the stories tend to be weak due to all the choice the player has.

The Mass Effect games are among my favorites because they have arguably the most compelling story in any game series I've played.[/QUOTE]
There's enough wiggle-room between the bland and personality-less story and characters (especially the "protagonist") of Bethesda games and the pigeon-holing of Mass Effect to fit my entire fucking province, comrade. Both those things are absolutely, unequivocably bad, and there is no god damn way I'll accept either as necessary.

Now, there are some games that benefit - or at the very least, aren't actively harmed by - "morality systems". If you're making a Star Wars game, a light/dark system makes sense, because the universe operates on a very rigid and inflexible moral system to begin with. Planescape Torment flat-out wouldn't work without the classic D&D alignment grid; you can't exactly have an eternal, multiverse-spanning war between Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil without it.

But, uh, yeah. fuck paragon and renegade. They can't even keep a consistent definition of what "renegade" is.
 
[quote name='corrosivefrost']Is radiant silvergun > guwange + bangai-o? I only have 900 points... bangai-o doesn't look like something I'd like...[/QUOTE]
Just get RS then. ^__^

Or play demos of all 3 then decide.
 
[quote name='corrosivefrost']Radiant Silvergun, Guwange, and Bangai-O HD are all 400 points this week.
Any of them worthwhile?[/QUOTE]


Offhand, I'd say all of them are. But I can see how Bangai-O might be a love-hate kind of game for some folks. I'd say if you have a bad feeling about it now, you're probably not going to like it and will end up in that hate camp.
 
[quote name='ihadFG']I really don't like the Paragon/Renegade system in Mass Effect. It stops people from playing how they want to play, and instead encourages them to follow one of two paths. And the way it locks you out of certain options based on that never really sat well with me.[/QUOTE]


Whiner. :cool:

Nah, seriously, how else are you proposing they handle that then? This kind of game has thousands and thousands of branching choices and responses, etc that need to be programmed. It's not realistic to make everything a grey area or take every possible scenario into account.

Anyway, I don't think the system necessarily "stops you" from playing how you want to play, because many folks do want to play strictly as a "good" character, just as there are those who like the purely "evil" choices. What we never really see though, is an "evil" path where evil really "wins" and is able to get away with everything, consequence-free.

It's a dev choice--why couldn't my female Shepard make sweet love to Ashley? At some point you just have to accept the limitations of what can be done with the game.
 
[quote name='gunm']It's a dev choice--why couldn't my female Shepard make sweet love to Ashley? At some point you just have to accept the limitations of what can be done with the game.[/QUOTE]
...

Shit, has it been two months since I last typed up an essay on this?

[quote name='gunm'] Nah, seriously, how else are you proposing they handle that then? This kind of game has thousands and thousands of branching choices and responses, etc that need to be programmed. It's not realistic to make everything a grey area or take every possible scenario into account.[/QUOTE]
Well, here's an idea: fucking don't. Your actual alignment doesn't change anything. At no point does the game go, "Well, you have 35 paragon points and 110 renegade points, therefore, X will now happen". The only thing the paragon/renegade system does is lock out certain dialogue options. Arbitrarily. There is no reason that, say, punching a reporter in the stomach should prevent someone from being able to argue in front of a group of judges. There is no reason that saving the life of a drugged-up volus should make me better at arguing in front of said judges. Or that shooting a mech with Garrus' rifle makes it easier for me to talk Miranda and Jack out of killing each-other.

It's just a bunch of arbitrary bullshit that restricts freedom so that they can pretend there's more replay value than there is. I understand that these sorts of things can be used in place of remembering what you actually did (see KotOR, where certain dialogues open up when you hit a certain point on the light/dark scale, or see how DA2 tried and failed hilariously to do this with their friendship/rivalry system). I get that. But ME never does that. The game remembers if you gave Tali the geth parts, not if you have 110 renegade points.

Remember Garrus' sidequest in ME1? Where you chased down "Dr. Heart"? Garrus is all gung-ho to kill the guy. He fuckin' wants it bad. So you can do the "renegade" thing and kill him first, then tell him that the important thing was killing the guy and doing it quickly, not who pulled the trigger. It's an extremely minor detail, but it was carried over to ME2. Garrus doesn't remember how many paragon or renegade points you had, but he does remember if you killed Dr. Heart, and he remembers why you said you did it. And if you contradict yourself? If you go back on what you said when you told him why you killed Dr. Heart? Garrus gives you shit for it. Paragon/renegade never enters in to it.

What I'm getting at again here is: there are myriad examples of the game remembering specific actions instead of using your paragon/renegade score as a "cheat-sheet" (which is actually a fairly legitimate use of it). The only thing your paragon/renegade score is used for is locking out certain dialogue options (and your character's appearance in ME2). That is pretty bullshit.

[quote name='gunm']Anyway, I don't think the system necessarily "stops you" from playing how you want to play, because many folks do want to play strictly as a "good" character, just as there are those who like the purely "evil" choices. What we never really see though, is an "evil" path where evil really "wins" and is able to get away with everything, consequence-free.[/QUOTE]
And a lot of us want to just play a fucking person without worrying about "good" or "evil". It's pretty simple, really: you are shown a thousand ways to do things, and told that if you deviate from a specific two - pure paragon or pure renegade - then you will be punished. You will miss out on many stuff. You will have fewer toys to play with. There will be less dialogue. Gameplay will be more restricted.

Freeing that shit up would still let people play "pure paragon" or "pure renegade". It just wouldn't punish people who punched the reported and wanted to save the refinery workers.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']There's enough wiggle-room between the bland and personality-less story and characters (especially the "protagonist") of Bethesda games and the pigeon-holing of Mass Effect to fit my entire fucking province, comrade. Both those things are absolutely, unequivocably bad, and there is no god damn way I'll accept either as necessary.

Now, there are some games that benefit - or at the very least, aren't actively harmed by - "morality systems". If you're making a Star Wars game, a light/dark system makes sense, because the universe operates on a very rigid and inflexible moral system to begin with. Planescape Torment flat-out wouldn't work without the classic D&D alignment grid; you can't exactly have an eternal, multiverse-spanning war between Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil without it.

But, uh, yeah. fuck paragon and renegade. They can't even keep a consistent definition of what "renegade" is.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough.

I'm not big on the choice options and multiple ending crap in general personally. I prefer linear stories that are the same for everyone who plays myself. I like WRPGs for the more action oriented combat, exploration, side quests systems etc., but honestly prefer the linear story of JRPGs.

Easier to tell a solid, cohesive story if you don't have to account for players making all kinds of different decisions.
 
Easier, most definitely. But if you're going for linearity, layering on all that illusion - putting the freedom right there in front of the player, then building a cage of game mechanics around it - is both extraneous busy-work for the developer and a giant fucking cock-tease for the player.

There is room for linearity. Y'know what story I loved? Starcraft 1/Brood War. Nothing groundbreaking, but some great characters, and a mostly solid story.

Then SC2 comes along, and it has a lot of faults, but one of the biggest is this non-linear bullshit. Yeah, it's great that I can unlock siege tanks early if I do this mission first, but it makes the plot jump all over the god damn place and makes all the characters seem bi-polar.

Linearity has its place. It just shouldn't tart itself up and pretend to be something else.
 
[quote name='ihadFG']I really don't like the Paragon/Renegade system in Mass Effect. It stops people from playing how they want to play, and instead encourages them to follow one of two paths. And the way it locks you out of certain options based on that never really sat well with me.[/QUOTE]


The thing about Mass Effect is that Alpha Protocol is better.
 
[quote name='whoknows']The thing about Mass Effect is that Alpha Protocol is better.[/QUOTE]
Obsidian is like if Mykevermin or dmaul here or dopa got in to a horrible, body-destroy car accident and the only thing they could salvage was a head and drastic measures were needed to preserve it but the only "host" they could get on short notice was JSP or some shit so you got this two-headed monstrosity where one head is a professor or a medical doctor or something and the other has to be reminded not to put the sock back on his foot after he's done wanking into it.

That was the worst sentence I ever typed, but I'm not going back on it.
 
[quote name='whoknows']The thing about Mass Effect is that Alpha Protocol is better.[/QUOTE]

Amen.

EDIT: KoFXIII on the lightning deals already? Oh my.
 
Get into SWTOR and then before I know it, I have to leave to go snowboarding.


Never played a MMORPG before, so this has been a treat so far.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']

And a lot of us want to just play a fucking person without worrying about "good" or "evil". It's pretty simple, really: you are shown a thousand ways to do things, and told that if you deviate from a specific two - pure paragon or pure renegade - then you will be punished. You will miss out on many stuff. You will have fewer toys to play with. There will be less dialogue. Gameplay will be more restricted.

Freeing that shit up would still let people play "pure paragon" or "pure renegade". It just wouldn't punish people who punched the reported and wanted to save the refinery workers.[/QUOTE]

This right here sums up my problem with the Paragon/Renegade system. It has nothing to do with linearity of story or multiple endings. I only play these games once, so I want to play it how I would play it. I don't want to feel compelled to do paragon for every single unrelated side quest just to raise my arbitrary paragon score, which would otherwise lock me out of completely unrelated dialogue options that have actual consequences in the game. Hell, I'd probably go with the paragon options most of the time anyway, but I want it to feel like I made that choice on my own.
 
And all of this is why I prefer games where every single motherfucker on the screen must die.

Keeps things simple.

Imma play Ninja Gaiden Black later.
 
I don't understand any of the games made by treasure apparently. Kinda understand Guwange, but Radiant Silvergun demo sucks ass, though the game might be better, and I absolutely hated Bangai-O more than the one I tried on DS. My word, "grab the thing, 17 billion enemies show up, try to use super missle charge to kill them all, die." That was fun.
 
[quote name='ihadFG']This right here sums up my problem with the Paragon/Renegade system. It has nothing to do with linearity of story or multiple endings. I only play these games once, so I want to play it how I would play it. I don't want to feel compelled to do paragon for every single unrelated side quest just to raise my arbitrary paragon score, which would otherwise lock me out of completely unrelated dialogue options that have actual consequences in the game. Hell, I'd probably go with the paragon options most of the time anyway, but I want it to feel like I made that choice on my own.[/QUOTE]

That is why I liked Dragon Age: Origins a lot, because sure there were minor consequences from your party if they got mad at how you handled something, but nothing was locking you out of picking a particular option if you felt it was the right one (in fact that and the party banter is what made me fall in love with that game, it might even be my favorite game this gen).
 
[quote name='corrosivefrost']I don't understand any of the games made by treasure apparently.[/QUOTE]

I like Guardian Heroes and Bleach DS, so you should play those.
 
[quote name='distgfx']I like Guardian Heroes and Bleach DS, so you should play those.[/QUOTE]
Definitely play Guardian Heroes, that shit is awesome.

[quote name='ihadFG']To me, Treasure is like the Platinum Games of old-school arcadey games. Love 'em.[/QUOTE]
Shouldn't that be "Platinum Games is like Treasure" since Treasure existed way before Platinum Games did?

And I love Treasure.
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']Definitely play Guardian Heroes, that shit is awesome.[/QUOTE]

You should have said Bleach DS, since it's like a better version of Guardian Heroes.
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']
Shouldn't that be "Platinum Games is like Treasure", since Treasure existed way way before Platinum Games did?[/QUOTE]

It's commutative. ;)
 
[quote name='distgfx']You should have said Bleach DS, since it's like a better version of Guardian Heroes.[/QUOTE]

But it's on DS and it's Bleach, so that's double failure.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Obsidian is like if Mykevermin or dmaul here or dopa got in to a horrible, body-destroy car accident and the only thing they could salvage was a head and drastic measures were needed to preserve it but the only "host" they could get on short notice was JSP or some shit so you got this two-headed monstrosity where one head is a professor or a medical doctor or something and the other has to be reminded not to put the sock back on his foot after he's done wanking into it.

That was the worst sentence I ever typed, but I'm not going back on it.[/QUOTE]

does mykevermin still post on cag? I rarely venture out of the ggt, only to scan the deals forum.

[quote name='linkpwns']Yeah, Josh is all about dat grey area.
There was a lot of grey area in last week's episode of dexter.
wut.[/QUOTE]

Is this season any better than last. The last two episodes of last season were bloody awful.
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']But it's on DS and it's Bleach, so that's double failure.[/QUOTE]

But it's by Treasure and it's better than Guardian Heroes, so that's triple win. Being compared to Guardian Heroes and being better nets it an automatic double.
 
[quote name='BlueScrote']
Is this season any better than last. The last two episodes of last season were bloody awful.[/QUOTE]

Anything is better than last season.
 
[quote name='distgfx']But it's by Treasure and it's better than Guardian Heroes, so that's triple win. Being compared to Guardian Heroes and being better nets it an automatic double.[/QUOTE]
"Better than Guardian Heroes" is subjective. Being on DS is my main issue with it.

That, and it's shitty ass Bleach.
 
I should have clarified that I don't understand the 3 shmup treasure games on sale.
None have a tutorial.
Bangai-O HD is a fucking mess and does not seem fun, immediately deleted after trying and dying about 10 times.
Radiant Silvergun has like 16 weapons and I had no idea how to use any of them. Also the hit box on the ship was weird.
Guwange was a bit weird with aiming and walking, but I figured out enough that it's on the top of the list. I just don't know whether to pull the trigger and if the full game for Radiant Silvergun is better than the demo indicated.
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']"Better than Guardian Heroes" is subjective.[/QUOTE]

No it's not, it's a fact that you can't fucking accept because you have a fucking avatar of chac's fatass cat.
 
[quote name='BlueScrote']does mykevermin still post on cag? I rarely venture out of the ggt, only to scan the deals forum.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, he still posts some in the Vs. forum if no where else.
 
[quote name='distgfx']Amen.

EDIT: KoFXIII on the lightning deals already? Oh my.[/QUOTE]



Less than 30% sold @$37 each, either platform. Oh my.



[quote name='hankmecrankme']FYI, Guwange isn't Treasure, it's Cave.[/QUOTE]



Yup. Both are good in their own way, although RS is overhyped, IMO. Ikaruga is better IMO.

SWTOR authentication system is jacked up. Doesn't seem to be working correctly--I'm not able to change anything without answering challenge questions and they don't seem to be working right. The CS is completely overwhelmed so I can't even get ahold of a live person to have them help me. It's the only problem I'm having with the game so far, but man is it a huge one...
 
[quote name='gunm']Less than 30% sold @$37 each, either platform. Oh my.[/QUOTE]

If it's not a Capcom or Namco fighter, it doesn't sell well. =\
 
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