GGT 179: featuring a link to the extended Ches-ka/Mo Chocolate sex scene

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[quote name='icebeast']But that is going to be a 100% personal view of the subject, since what you consider "cream of the crop" isn't going to be the same as someone else, for instance I'm sure Uriazen isn't going to consider ME3 the pinnacle of games. And even the things you consider "dreck" of a medium are sometimes loved by a bunch of people, I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to find someone who would list the New York Times Best Selling Twilight series as some of their favorite books of all time.[/quote]

Of course I'm only talking about my own opinions. I'm just saying to me the story in my favorite story based games sucks donkey balls compared to the story in my favorite movies, shows or books.

I'm not trying to speak objectively or anything, and frankly don't give a damn about other's opinions on inherently subjective things like games, movies, books etc.

All that matters is what you yourself enjoy most.

And even beyond that how do you compare a game without a story (or where story isn't the focus) to those other mediums. Is every book better than League of Legends or any fighting game because they are about competitive gameplay and the story is just thrown in for fun?
Click to expand...

Of course you don't make that comparison as games not designed to tell a story aren't a story telling medium.

If we're talking about the pros and cons of various medium as story telling devices, that excludes games that aren't attempting to tell any kind of meaningful story.

Again, I'm not talking about whether movie x is better than game y. I'm talking about my personal enjoyment of the story telling experience across mediums. My favorite story based games couldn't hold a candle plot wise to my favorite movies and books.

Others may feel differently as again it all just comes down to personal preference.


[quote name='The Crotch']I believe the point has missed you.

In an easy game, you feel no threat. No threat, no tension, no stakes, none of those things that are essential for making readers/viewers/players actually give a fuck about what is happening.

I wasn't talking about "skipping the gameplay". I was talking about segregating THIS IS STORY TIME from THIS IS GAMEPLAY TIME, and how harmful that is to the latter. That is something that involves the entire development team, not just "get better writers". Gameplay should feed the story and the story should give meaning to the gameplay, as fucking impossible as that may seem sometimes.[/QUOTE]

I just disagree on that, partly anyway. Movies, books, shows give you no control over anything and I still have an emotional investment in seeing what happens to the characters. Games are the same for me. I care what happens to the characters. The gameplay doesn't add much to that for me because even if I die I can just reload the save. If someone dies in a movie or book, nothing I can do to reboot that. So all the gameplay does is provide some fun if done right, and some frustration if not.

So, I'm not really saying that gamplay and story are separate. Just that I don't really enjoy most gameplay much anymore, so it just lessens the storytelling experience for me personally compared to just sitting back and watching a story unfold in a movie or book.

So, hell an ideal ME type game for me would just more or less be an interactive movie. Just have all the dialogue control, make decisions etc. and just have the combat be cut scenes. Would probably get old fast, and I'd still prefer just watching a movie or reading a book. But it would at least be a unique story telling experience--basically an animated choose your own adventure book.

But it's just a different strokes for different folks thing I guess. The story telling mechanisms of gaming just don't really click with me. So I do partly agree with what you're saying. The combat etc. could add to the story experience for those who it does click for. Where as I'm just better sticking with games, books and shows--so I'm focused on clearing out my backlog, playing a few games I want to play that I haven't bought yet and moving on from gaming finally.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
But this is just another example of why genre labels are useless. Too many games combine multiple genre elements which makes them tough to classify into any kind of specific genre.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly, that's why conversations about whether a game falls into a certain genre seems pointless to me. I don't care what you want to call it. I just want it to be good at whatever it tries to do.

[quote name='The Crotch']Gameplay should feed the story and the story should give meaning to the gameplay, as fucking impossible as that may seem sometimes.[/QUOTE]

Yup.

[quote name='panzerfaust']People talking about story and gameplay as if they should be treated separately.

Another boring conversation.[/QUOTE]

Yup.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
I just disagree on that, partly anyway. Movies, books, shows give you no control over anything and I still have an emotional investment in seeing what happens to the characters. Games are the same for me. I care what happens to the characters. The gameplay doesn't add much to that for me because even if I die I can just reload the save. If someone dies in a movie or book, nothing I can do to reboot that. So all the gameplay does is provide some fun if done right, and some frustration if not.

So, I'm not really saying that gamplay and story are separate. Just that I don't really enjoy most gameplay much anymore, so it just lessens the storytelling experience for me personally compared to just sitting back and watching a story unfold in a movie or book.

So, hell an ideal ME type game for me would just more or less be an interactive movie. Just have all the dialogue control, make decisions etc. and just have the combat be cut scenes. Would probably get old fast, and I'd still prefer just watching a movie or reading a book. But it would at least be a unique story telling experience--basically an animated choose your own adventure book.

But it's just a different strokes for different folks thing I guess. The story telling mechanisms of gaming just don't really click with me. So I do partly agree with what you're saying. The combat etc. could add to the story experience for those who it does click for. Where as I'm just better sticking with games, books and shows--so I'm focused on clearing out my backlog, playing a few games I want to play that I haven't bought yet and moving on from gaming finally.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like if Mass Effect was like Heavy Rain...which would potentially be sweet since IMO the gameplay in ME isn't anything special. The shooting mechanics are pretty subpar.

Have you played Heavy Rain?
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']Wait for the revision.[/QUOTE]

That holds me back, definitely. But dammit I want to play me some Mario.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']The gameplay doesn't add much to that for me because even if I die I can just reload the save. If someone dies in a movie or book, nothing I can do to reboot that. So all the gameplay does is provide some fun if done right, and some frustration if not.

So, I'm not really saying that gamplay and story are separate. Just that I don't really enjoy most gameplay much anymore, so it just lessens the storytelling experience for me personally compared to just sitting back and watching a story unfold in a movie or book.[/QUOTE]
...

You just gave an example of gameplay:story segregation and then said that they aren't separated.

wat
 
[quote name='ihadFG']Hey guys, Lone Survivor is out on Steam now and it's 20% off, making it only $7.99.

It's the best game I've played this year, and I highly recommend it.[/QUOTE]
Hmm. . .
A genuinely brave and adult story with warmth, humor and even hope to be found within the darkness
Click to expand...
lol


[quote name='seanr1221']That holds me back, definitely. But dammit I want to play me some Mario.[/QUOTE]
Then go get one. You can probably afford it. ^__^
 
[quote name='The Crotch']...

You just gave an example of gameplay:story segregation and then said that they aren't separated.

wat[/QUOTE]

What I'm trying to say is that I agree gameplay and story should go hand in hand and reinforce one another (i.e. the gameplay and cutscenes/dialogue flow together seemlessly).

But for me it just doesn't work as interactive story telling doesn't really click with me. To me art is setting back and having an artist tell a specific story to me that he/she is intending to elicit a specific emotional reaction. When you add interactivity/gameplay to that, you lose that element.

Again, that's just me. Not saying that's what art is, just that's how I enjoy art and storytelling.

In otherwords, gameplay and storytelling are always separate for me as the gameplay takes me out of the story as I can't just sit back and enjoy like I can with a movie or book.

I'm not saying they're designed to be separate, or have to be separate, just that they become separate for me as the gameplay snaps me out of the story and I just want to power through it and get to the next cutscene as I don't enjoy gameplay as much as just consuming a story passively.

[quote name='hankmecrankme']You're forgetting Aeris, dmaul.

Only the Gameshark could bring her back. :cry:[/QUOTE]

True. Characters can die in games for sure. Just generally not the main character.

But I do think that linear games like JRPGs can tell better stories than an interactive plot game like Mass Effect as they can more easily have major scripted events, focus on telling a cohesive story that's the same for everyone etc. I just don't tend to dig JRPG stories, and hate turn based combat that's in most of them unfortunately.
 
[quote name='whoknows']Sounds like if Mass Effect was like Heavy Rain...which would potentially be sweet since IMO the gameplay in ME isn't anything special. The shooting mechanics are pretty subpar.

Have you played Heavy Rain?[/QUOTE]

I haven't. I'll have to check it out sometime if I don't ditch my consoles after clearing my current backlog.
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']Gameplay >>> story.[/QUOTE]

If every studio that believes in this disappears, I'm done with gaming forever. There will literally be nothing left for me.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']What I'm trying to say is that I agree gameplay and story should go hand in hand and reinforce one another (i.e. the gameplay and cutscenes/dialogue flow together seemlessly).

But for me it just doesn't work as interactive story telling doesn't really click with me. To me art is setting back and having an artist tell a specific story to me that he/she is intending to elicit a specific emotional reaction. When you add interactivity/gameplay to that, you lose that element.

Again, that's just me. Not saying that's what art is, just that's how I enjoy art and storytelling.

In otherwords, gameplay and storytelling are always separate for me as the gameplay takes me out of the story as I can't just sit back and enjoy like I can with a movie or book.

I'm not saying they're designed to be separate, or have to be separate, just that they become separate for me as the gameplay snaps me out of the story and I just want to power through it and get to the next cutscene as I don't enjoy gameplay as much as just consuming a story passively.[/QUOTE]
And that's all fine.

But it will mean always settling for a weakened story, and throwing better writers at it will only get you so far.

I mean, unless it's some sort of Suda 51-esque parody or something.
 
[quote name='distgfx']If every studio that believes in this disappears, I'm done with gaming forever. There will literally be nothing left for me.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't worry about that. The success of iOS/android games shows there's a big market for pure gameplay games.

As well as things like fighting games, sports games, FPS games with little or no story etc.

[quote name='The Crotch']And that's all well and good.

But it will mean always settling for a weakened story.
[/QUOTE]

Which is why I'm finally owning up to gaming just really not being worth the amount of time I still spend on it anymore.

I love stories and get more out of them in movie/show/book form so I'm going to spend more time on those, work slowly on clearing out the current gen games I still would like to play, and not buy another console.

Just hard to ditch a hobby after 25+ years, but tastes/interests change and free time shrinks.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I wouldn't worry about that. The success of iOS/android games shows there's a big market for pure gameplay games.

As well as things like fighting games, sports games, FPS games with little or no story etc.[/QUOTE]

iOS games aren't the types of games I have in mind when I think of pure gameplay, even though that is usually the case. The gameplay in them is usually about as simplistic as a dynasty warriors game and that's not what I'm looking for. I want DMC and Bayonetta caliber gameplay in my games, not doodle jump or whatever it's called.

I'm glad fighting games are so popular now, but I feel like the action genre is now dying out by putting an emphasis on story over gameplay.
 
The iOS games that try to be console games are usually pretty bad, but the simple ones remind me a lot of NES/Arcade games. Lot's of simple yet really unique and fun stuff comes out on iOS. I don't get the hate.
 
[quote name='distgfx']I'm glad fighting games are so popular now, but I feel like the action genre is now dying out by putting an emphasis on story over gameplay.[/QUOTE]
This would not be a complaint if "story" wasn't shorthand for "cutscenes and audio journals and hey does this guy have a love interest yet let's give him a love interest oh you haven't finished animating her face oh well".
 
[quote name='distgfx']iOS games aren't the types of games I have in mind when I think of pure gameplay, even though that is usually the case. The gameplay in them is usually about as simplistic as a dynasty warriors game and that's not what I'm looking for. I want DMC and Bayonetta caliber gameplay in my games, not doodle jump or whatever it's called.

I'm glad fighting games are so popular now, but I feel like the action genre is now dying out by putting an emphasis on story over gameplay.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't equating them with being the type of gameplay hardcore gamers want. Just that we're not in a situation where only story based games are selling. Plenty of games for casuals/non-gamers and hardcore gamers that are still gameplay focused.

Action genre you're probably right on, as was never a fan as I hate combat driven games (other than shooters) so I don't pay much attention to the trend in that genre.


[quote name='hankmecrankme']Gross, iOS/Android games. :puke:[/QUOTE]

I'm not a fan of phone/tablet games that try to be like console/pc games (can't get into Infinity Blade 2 for instance), but I love stuff like Bejeweled, Words with Friends, Angry Birds etc. for killing time when stuck in a waiting room etc. Though lately I tend to just read some of whatever I'm reading on my Kindle on my iPhone Kindle app rather than playing games.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']This would not be a complaint if "story" wasn't shorthand for "cutscenes and audio journals and hey does this guy have a love interest yet let's give him a love interest oh you haven't finished animating her face oh well".[/QUOTE]

And that's where my comment about bad writing came from.

I don't mind cutscenes or audio journals etc. if done well. For instance, the audio logs in Bioshock were great IMO and a neat way to flesh out the story.

It's that the dialogue and quality of story told through them are lacking that usually bothers me. I don't have an issue with cutscenes, audio logs, the conversation tree in ME etc. as story telling mechanisms at all.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Action genre you're probably right on, as was never a fan as I hate combat driven games (other than shooters) so I don't pay much attention to the trend in that genre.[/QUOTE]

Combat driven games are my favorite types of games. :cry:

Well, ones that have more depth than a puddle.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
I'm not a fan of phone/tablet games that try to be like console/pc games (can't get into Infinity Blade 2 for instance)[/QUOTE]

It's funny you gave Infinity Blade 2 as your example for that because gameplay-wise, I really don't think that game tries to be like a console game at all. It's designed around a simple touch interface, and it's exactly the kind of thing that works well on iOS.
 
You know what game is 100% gameplay:
Click everything! NPC I demand you tell me what to click next! More clicking!

Thier_Farmville_1-14_post.jpg
 
Alright, know what doesn't make sense to me? Fighters on iOS. Before anybody asks, yes, I used to own an iPod touch and had stuff like SFIV for it. The controls for it were balls and fighters simply aren't playable using a touch screen. Now they're putting Marvel 2 on the damned thing. Like... I know that people buy them, which is why they do it, but do they actually enjoy playing on a touch screen?
 
[quote name='distgfx']Combat driven games are my favorite types of games. :cry:

Well, ones that have more depth than a puddle.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, as someone that hates skill based games, the genre just isn't for me. I don't like learning combos, figuring out strategies for different types of enemies etc.

So I mainly just like hack and slash rpgs, shooters, platformers etc. where the combat is super simplistic. I want something I can vegout, get immersed in the world, hopefully enjoy some semblance of a story, and just escape from reality for a bit. Skill based games don't do that for me as they feel like work since I have to practice and learn, get frustrated with dying etc.

[quote name='ihadFG']It's funny you gave Infinity Blade 2 as your example for that because gameplay-wise, I really don't think that game tries to be like a console game at all. It's designed around a simple touch interface, and it's exactly the kind of thing that works well on iOS.[/QUOTE]

Well, I wasn't meaning control wise--but I do especially hate games with simulated keyboards and buttons.

I just meant the only mobile games I like are the simple, play in short bursts, ones like Angry Birds, Words with Friends etc.

I don't have any interest in playing longer, more involved games on my iPhone or iPad. Hell, I don't even like gaming on a DS or PSP. If I'm going to play a substantive game, I'd rather wait until I can fire it up on the 50" TV and play with a real controller etc.

[quote name='distgfx']Alright, know what doesn't make sense to me? Fighters on iOS. Before anybody asks, yes, I used to own an iPod touch and had stuff like SFIV for it. The controls for it were balls and fighters simply aren't playable using a touch screen. Now they're putting Marvel 2 on the damned thing. Like... I know that people buy them, which is why they do it, but do they actually enjoy playing on a touch screen?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, they're pretty lousy. I have one of the Street Fighters on my iPhone as a friend logged in and installed it so we could play each other. It's semi playable if you use the simplified controls where you just tap an onscreen button for special moves rather than doing the inputs. But really not much fun, especially for anyone who actually plays fighters on consoles.
 
[quote name='distgfx']Alright, know what doesn't make sense to me? Fighters on iOS. Before anybody asks, yes, I used to own an iPod touch and had stuff like SFIV for it. The controls for it were balls and fighters simply aren't playable using a touch screen. Now they're putting Marvel 2 on the damned thing. Like... I know that people buy them, which is why they do it, but do they actually enjoy playing on a touch screen?[/QUOTE]

I cannot comprehend how someone could play a fighter on a touch screen. Unless they wanted to buttonscreen mash I guess.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeah, as someone that hates skill based games, the genre just isn't for me. I don't like learning combos, figuring out strategies for different types of enemies etc.

So I mainly just like hack and slash rpgs, shooters, platformers etc. where the combat is super simplistic. I want something I can vegout, get immersed in the world, hopefully enjoy some semblance of a story, and just escape from reality for a bit. Skill based games don't do that for me as they feel like work since I have to practice and learn, get frustrated with dying etc.[/QUOTE]

I don't see it as work; I see it as being rewarded. The feeling I get from being able to do the more advanced stuff is euphoric and I can put an insane amount of time into the games. I actually like it when a game has more depth to it because it gives me a reason to keep playing it. Going back to Dynasty Warriors, I can play that game for 5 min and feel like I've played the entire series. For games like DMC and Bayonetta I can play for over 50 hours and STILL feel like I haven't tapped into the game's mechanics.

[quote name='ihadFG']I cannot comprehend how someone could play a fighter on a touch screen. Unless they wanted to buttonscreen mash I guess.[/QUOTE]

Yeah... if you play like mango then they're going to break the damned screen.
 
[quote name='distgfx']I don't see it as work; I see it as being rewarded. The feeling I get from being able to do the more advanced stuff is euphoric and I can put an insane amount of time into the games. I actually like it when a game has more depth to it because it gives me a reason to keep playing it. Going back to Dynasty Warriors, I can play that game for 5 min and feel like I've played the entire series. For games like DMC and Bayonetta I can play for over 50 hours and STILL feel like I haven't tapped into the game's mechanics.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I get why people like them. It's just not for me.

I get the sense of accomplishment/reward stuff from my career, running, working out etc. and turn to games and other hobbies to just relax and veg out.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']That holds me back, definitely. But dammit I want to play me some Mario.[/QUOTE]

You'd play it for an hour and get bored and leave it like ME3. :p
 
[quote name='corrosivefrost']You'd play it for an hour and get bored and leave it like ME3. :p[/QUOTE]

Probably! I need to borrow it somehow.
 
Yeah, I was tempted to get a 3DS for Super Mario Land--and they just announced New Super Mario Bros 2.

But I'd just play those games and then it would gather dust. And I still haven't played Super Mario Galaxy 2, so I can by that eventually to get a Mario fix.
 
[quote name='distgfx'] The feeling I get from being able to do the more advanced stuff is euphoric and I can put an insane amount of time into the games. I actually like it when a game has more depth to it because it gives me a reason to keep playing it. [/QUOTE]

You should check out StarCraft, I hear that game has tons of depth. It also takes an insane amount of time to even come close to mastering.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeah, I was tempted to get a 3DS for Super Mario Land--and they just announced New Super Mario Bros 2.

But I'd just play those games and then it would gather dust. And I still haven't played Super Mario Galaxy 2, so I can by that eventually to get a Mario fix.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Super Mario Land is good, but Super Mario Galaxy 2 should definitely be higher on your list. That game is godly.
 
[quote name='icebeast']You should check out StarCraft, I hear that game has tons of depth. It also takes an insane amount of time to even come close to mastering.[/QUOTE]

See also: League of Legends.
 
[quote name='linkpwns']See also: League of Legends.[/QUOTE]

Yes.

[quote name='hankmecrankme']May I also recommend Dolan Defenders?[/QUOTE]

Probably not, I've played it, and like most tower defense games it boils down to trial and error to figure out a working strategy to survive the waves using your abilities and the layout of each map.
 
[quote name='icebeast']Probably not, I've played it, and like most tower defense games it boils down to trial and error to figure out a working strategy to survive the waves using your abilities and the layout of each map.[/QUOTE]
Hmm, this sound a lot like Starcraft. . .:whistle2:k Replace abilities with units.
 
[quote name='linkpwns']Or maybe even Deep Blue?[/QUOTE]

If we're talking the chess program that beat a world champion, then yes, chess is a very deep game that takes a long time to master (I hear Go far surpasses it in depth though).
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeah, I get why people like them. It's just not for me.

I get the sense of accomplishment/reward stuff from my career, running, working out etc. and turn to games and other hobbies to just relax and veg out.[/QUOTE]

I turn to stupid TV shows to relax.

[quote name='icebeast']You should check out StarCraft[/QUOTE]

Nah, not my type of game.
 
[quote name='hankmecrankme']Hmm, this sound a lot like Starcraft. . .:whistle2:k Replace abilities with units.[/QUOTE]

Except that Starcraft is real-time and you have to figure what your opponent is doing to try to counter it, the game comes down to how well you can react to what your opponent is doing and how well you can actually control your units.

In a Tower Defense game your opponents are brain dead CPUs with a mission to walk down a set path to reach a point on the map. In almost all of them the quantity of the enemies is known and when you re-try the same mission that you already failed the only thing that will change is how you setup ways to kill the enemies.

One game is all about your ability to react and deal with another human being. The other is all about figuring out a specific strategy that will always beat a particular wave of CPU monsters on a given map, and once you have a winning strategy you will never lose to that wave as long as you do that same thing (of course some of the fun in those types of games can be figuring out unique ways to do things, but once you find a winning strategy you aren't required to find another).
 
[quote name='distgfx']I turn to stupid TV shows to relax.
[/QUOTE]

About the lowest I'll go in terms of "stupid" TV shows or movies are sitcoms and the occasional action movie. Can't do reality TV, stupid funny comedies etc.

I'm more into dramas. I don't need to totally turn off my brain to relax. I just prefer something passive like watching a great movie or reading a great book to something active like gaming to veg out.

But I do need to totally check out sometimes and that's where a sitcom or action movie or pop fiction book like The Hunger Games comes into the picture.

Games kind of fall in between. Lack the artistic merit of a great movie or work of literary fiction (IMHO), but being interactive you can't veg out as much as you can with a sitcom or popcorn action flick.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Lack the artistic merit of a great movie or work of literary fiction (IMHO), but being interactive you can't veg out as much as you can with a sitcom or popcorn action flick.[/QUOTE]

Depends, paying attention to what's going on in a movie or putting together the meaning of the words in a book requires a certain amount of concentration, there are some games for me where I can play them basically on auto-pilot with almost no thought, just reflex to do repetitive actions over and over.
 
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