- LOCK - Format War - HD DVD vs. Blu-Ray - LOCK -

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[quote name='seanr1221']You watch the movies on a 19" computer monitor??[/QUOTE]

Yeah, a 19" widescreen Samsung I picked up during Black Friday last year for $160

Not the best set up in the world but I'm in a very small room, it has a native resolution of 1440x900 and the Xbox is hooked to it with VGA cables with my computer's 5.1 system as sound.

It will hold me over until I get an HDTV and HD cable.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']By the time we reach that point, 1TB drives should be cheap and plentiful.[/quote]
Actually, we're just about there now. Best Buy had external 1TB drives on sale last week for $280. A friend of mine bought one, ripped the drive out and threw it in his series 3 TiVo for 131 hours of HD goodness, 1300hrs of SD. :)
 
[quote name='terribledeli']It's been discussed.

It's not to matter for two reasons

1) Any director with two classes on the art of directing could direct Transformers 2 and it'd still make billions

2) He'll retract his statement, say it was a spur of the moment remark and sit back his seat.[/quote]

Nice call!
 
[quote name='Sporadic']I thought WWE Films was releasing with Lionsgate who are Blu-Ray only?[/QUOTE]

http://www.wwe.com/inside/news/archive/weinsteindvddeal

Talk about a winning tag team – WWE has teamed up with Genius Products, LLC as the new, exclusive home entertainment distributor of all WWE DVD titles, in a multi-year agreement effective Nov. 1.

Announcing the deal is WWE Chariman, Vince McMahon; and Co-Chairmen and Co-CEOs of The Weinstein Company, Harvey and Bob Weinstein. The Weinstein Company is the majority owner of Genius Products. Also announcing are Genius Products President and CEO, Trevor Drinkwater; Genius Products Chairman Stephen K. Bannon; and WWE’s Executive Vice President, Consumer Products, Donna Goldsmith. Drinkwater and Genius EVP for Sales, Mitchell Budin; and WWE Senior Director, Home Entertainment and Publishing, Joel Satin, inked the DVD deal.

As for WWE Films, I don't know and I don't care. It may mean that "Bratz: The Movie" is BR-exclusive, but in reality, and I may have to really stretch to convince you on this, I could give a fuck about WWE Films. Period. :lol:

Also, WWE products (the wrestling products, at any rate) being HD DVD exclusive are meaningless to me. None of their stuff was shot with film (Fuji Vice, maybe? ;)), so the only benefit or HD transferrable footage is the current WWE wrestling product. Which, as all you wrestling thread readers know, is not something I will clamor to purchase on any format.
 
[quote name='orimental']So Paramount/DW on HD DVD is an indefinite commitment...[/quote]
Um...sure...just like Disney, Fox, Lionsgate...is with Blu-Ray.
 
[quote name='orimental']So Paramount/DW on HD DVD is an indefinite commitment...[/QUOTE]

So far.

18 months is a long time. They could stay the course or jump ship all together.

[quote name='LinkinPrime']Um...sure...just like Disney, Fox, Lionsgate...is with Blu-Ray.[/QUOTE]

Check the last page.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']???[/QUOTE]

From here.

[quote name='PCWorld']Will this exclusive period extend for a limited time, or is this an indefinite arrangement?[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Alan Bell']At this moment in time, it's an indefinite commitment. The core of this announcement comes from our experience, and what our consumers are looking for. We hope this will influence consumers' choices.[/QUOTE]
 
Ok, reposted for a new page since it was lost on the end of the last one.

------------------------------

Paramount's CTO on Why His Studio Is Dumping Blu-ray
Alan Bell discusses why HD DVD is his studio's exclusive high-definition format.

In a surprise move, Paramount and DreamWorks Animation announced this week that they would align themselves exclusively with the HD DVD high-definition format. The controversial decision has attracted a lot of attention, and not just because it comes at a time when market indicators have been pointing to competitor Blu-ray Disc as having the lead (disc sales have been running 2-1 in Blu-ray's favor).

Rumors have swirled since the news broke, suggesting that Paramount and DreamWorks are being heavily compensated for their exclusivity pact--to the tune of $50 million and $100 million, respectively. A Paramount spokesperson says only: " ... whenever we conduct co-marketing, production deals, or other agreements, we never discuss business terms."

I don't doubt that some level of financial incentive made this a good business decision for the two studios. But according to Alan Bell, executive vice president and chief technology officer for Paramount Pictures, there's more to the change in allegiance than either a mere abandonment of Blu-ray's higher-capacity advantage or pure business dealings.

Here's some background from Bell about the recent news.

PCW: Presumably, making this move wasn't something you did lightly. What led up to the decision to shift your production exclusively to HD DVD?

Bell: Paramount has been getting experience with publishing titles in both formats for the last year. We've had a hands-on ability to see how these formats work in practice. And after some hands-on analysis, we decided that HD DVD was the format we wanted to support.

PCW: Why was that?

Bell: For one thing, the lower prices of the players: It's good for consumers, it's good for our customer base.

For another thing, HD DVD came out of the DVD Forum. The DVD Forum is very experienced at developing and managing specs. [HD DVD] was launched in a very stable way, with stable specifications, and they had specified a reference player model, so all players had to be compatible with the HDi interactivity layer, and all players had to be capable of the interactivity. So when we publish titles in the future that have interactivity, we can be assured that every HD DVD player will be able to handle this content.

PCW: So, as a studio, you believe that the underlying stability of HD DVD's specs is a benefit?

Bell: When you look at what the DVD Forum has specified as required, it's a good set of advanced technologies. You can be assured that that benefit will be available to all consumers, no matter what [player] model they purchased. That speaks to the DVD Forum, that it published specs that were complete and market-ready, and that it didn't need to publish up [and change the specs], as Blu-ray has. To some degree, [such changes are] going to create some legacy issues.

For example, HD DVD players have [ethernet] connectivity built-in. If the player doesn't have that, or it's optional, you can't rely on that [as a feature].

PCW: Didn't we see the same thing with DVD players, though, where some features were mandatory and others weren't?

Bell: When you have a format, you generally have mandatory requirements on players, and you sometimes have optional features. On DVD, Dolby Digital 5.1 was mandatory, but DTS 5.1 was optional. But that meant that when you published a title, you never really knew how many customers had players that supported the feature you were adding to the disc at some cost. On HD DVD, the mandatory audio technologies are Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, and Dolby TrueHD. [For more details, see an explanation of the differences among the various Dolby technologies.]

PCW: Over time, though, DTS became a de facto standard on DVD players. Don't you expect to see the same thing happen over time with Blu-ray's specs, such as the requirements for storage and interactivity via an ethernet connection? [Paramount's decision comes ahead of Blu-ray's new minimum specs, which go into effect for players sold after October 31.]

Bell: Eventually, that's true, but right now we have early adopters and enthusiasts [buying players]. If you do migrate the spec and your options are not included on the early players, these are the very people you leave behind. They're our most valuable customers in launching a new format, and you want to make sure that what they buy continues to represent the best of the format.

PCW: What about the additional capacity of Blu-ray, which has 50GB dual-layer discs, as opposed to HD DVD's 30GB dual-layer discs? Some studios have cited the additional capacity as necessary. Are you going to miss having the extra headroom?

Bell: This is a little bit overrated. Making a choice like the one Paramount has made is a multifaceted choice: It depends upon manufacturability, the reliability of players, the cost, the infrastructure that's developed to support our creation of titles. Many different factors came into play--including capacity. When Paramount made this decision, we considered the broad spectrum.

If everything else were equal, more capacity would be better. Why not?

But if you convert the playing time, a 30GB disc gives you somewhere between 3 and 4 hours of capacity. It depends upon the nature of the movie and how you compress it. There's no compromise on the quality. We've found that 95 percent of movies are less than 2.25 hours long. With a disc whose capacity is 3 or 4 hours, you can put a fair amount of bonus material on that disc as well. So 30GB with the option to add another disc is fine, from our point of view.

PCW: What if the multiple soundtracks and high-definition bonus materials won't fit on a single disc?

Bell: If there's an overflow of bonus material, we'll just go to another disc. That's not an issue for consumers. In some cases, they consider that it has more value. It's done routinely in DVD. Why put every single title on a high-capacity disc if it doesn't need it?

PCW: Do you expect capacity needs to change in the future?

Bell: A 45GB disc is under development. [Editors' note: This disc has been in development for two years.] Secondly, compression will become more effective. The number of minutes you get on a disc depends upon how much you can compress a movie. As we gain experience with the new codecs, the ability to compress at high quality will be improved.

Capacity is a factor, but it's not an overriding factor. In the grand scheme of things, the better proposition for consumers in our view, and for our business needs, is HD DVD.

PCW: From your first-hand experiences, what can you tell us about the difference in programming languages between HD DVD, which uses Microsoft's HDi technology, and Blu-ray, which uses BD-Java?

Bell: BD-Java is a programming language. The benefit is that it's very flexible. The drawback is that you may need 100 lines of BD-Java code. HDi is a relatively compact piece of code; one command can cover quite a bit of interactivity.

BD-Java is also more complex, so the possibility of errors is greater. And when BD players are put out, [there's the question of whether] they all support the scenarios as coded up from the low level. [Some of the early problems with BD-Java discs] were in part due to the complexity that BD-Java brings. From our point of view, HDi offers all of the flexibility we need, in practice, and it does so in a more simplified way and in a way that we feel leads to better compatibility, better reliability, and lower costs.

PCW: Up until now, how have you approached coding your discs for HDi and BD-Java?

Bell: At this particular point in time, we've been able to supply more features with HDi and HD DVD than with BD-Java and Blu-ray Disc. What we have typically done in practice is that we've created the interactive scenarios in HD DVD and then tried to pull them into Blu-ray. But that has not been entirely possible: Some things we can do in HDi are not supported in BD-Java. If you're going to do BD-Java, you need someone who's capable of programming at a low level. With HDi, you don't need somebody with that additional level of training. We don't need programmers to code our discs.

PCW: Do you think users are interested in the interactivity on these discs?

Bell: Interactivity is an important part of why you would move up from DVD. Yes, [high-def] has a great picture, but is that enough? Connectivity is something that studios will grow into, and it's something that we believe studios will grow into.

We're thinking about [having media servers to provide extra content via the Internet], but those kinds of investments cost money. The motivation to do them grows as the installed base grows. If we see there's a sufficiently large installed base to justify the cost of the server, we'll do it. Right now we're concentrating on getting a great picture out, and great interactivity.

PCW: Will this exclusive period extend for a limited time, or is this an indefinite arrangement?

Bell: At this moment in time, it's an indefinite commitment. The core of this announcement comes from our experience, and what our consumers are looking for. We hope this will influence consumers' choices.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136253-c,dvdtechnology/article.html

Wow, me and Paramount are on the exact same page on just about everything.
 
[quote name='zewone']Lost on the last page?

What about the people like me, with 50 posts per page, now have to see it twice? :cry:[/QUOTE]

It's a good interview, it gives you the perfect chance to re-read it ;)
 
[quote name='Sporadic']That is pretty retarded unless you have a hard-on to spend 500+ on a burner and $20 per BR-R[/QUOTE]

It's not retarded at all actually. Prices WILL go down, and that extra space would be nice. I realize YOU may not need it NOW, but I'm sure someone would appreciate it at some point in time.

I am for a one format gen too, which is why this news saddens me. Originally, I wanted BD to win, simply because of more storage space (the other factors are irrelevant to me, in the long run), but I would prefer HD-DVD to win, rather than have the two formats duke it out.
 
[quote name='orimental']Yeah, retarded is too harsh. Try "mentally hilarious".[/quote]

Yes, we are retarded and "mentally hilarious" for thinking 25gb > 15gb. :roll:
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']Yes, we are retarded and "mentally hilarious" for thinking 25gb > 15gb. :roll:[/QUOTE]

What is sufficient now will always be sufficient, FACT.
 
[quote name='dpatel']What is sufficient now will always be sufficient, FACT.[/quote]
Yeah, because no PS3 games are using the extra space...... BTW, is it Ironic for me to watch Blu-ray's on Toshiba HDTV?
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']Yes, we are retarded and "mentally hilarious" for thinking 25gb > 15gb. :roll:[/QUOTE]

[quote name='dpatel']What is sufficient now will always be sufficient, FACT.[/QUOTE]

Did I say either of these?

No, I just said price/space wise you are much better off going with an external hard drive or multiple ones instead of any next-generation burner.

You can currently get a 1TB external hard drive for $350 or a 500GB one for $150. That's less than a Blu-Ray burner, let alone the 20/10 discs you would need to buy on top of that.

And that's just right now.

Hard drive prices are plummeting. It will be years before burners become affordable.

And I know "but I don't want to carry around a external hard drive, I want to carry around a binder full of disc :cry: ", what's to say the computer you are carrying the discs to will even have a reader? Remember how long it took for CDs to become the standard? Or even worse imagine you want to show your friend your rad Linux collection (;)) but he has a HD-DVD drive. I have yet to run into semi "modern" computer that hasn't had a USB port.

Seriously the last thing in your mind when you support a format is the burner situation. We are a good 4-5 years away from that even becoming financially feasible.

- edit [quote name='H.Cornerstone']Yeah, because no PS3 games are using the extra space[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I didn't know leaving everything uncompressed and leaving just about everything they create on a disc regardless whether it's used or not "using the extra space"

It's as if I were to complain about hard drive space only because I was ripping all of my music in .WAV, saving all of my images as bitmaps and ripping all of my videos in .MPEG2.

- edit2 Yeah the space will be needed eventually but this is nothing like the PS1 days where everything is multi-disc. I can only think of one game that needs multiple disc and that's Blue Dragon since they use a ton of video. In-scene cutscenes and audio compression should see us through this game generation.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Did I say either of these?

No, I just said price/space wise you are much better off going with an external hard drive or multiple ones instead of any next-generation burner.

You can currently get a 1TB external hard drive for $350 or a 500GB one for $150. That's less than a Blu-Ray burner, let alone the 20/10 discs you would need to buy on top of that.

And that's just right now.

Hard drive prices are pummeling. It will be years before burners become affordable.

And I know "but I don't want to carry around a external hard drive, I want to carry around a binder full of disc :cry: ", what's to say the computer you are carrying the discs to will even have a reader? Remember how long it took for CDs to become the standard? Or even worse imagine you want to show your friend your rad Linux collection but he has a HD-DVD drive. I have yet to run into semi "modern" computer that hasn't had a USB port.

Seriously the last thing in your mind when you support a format is the burner situation. We are a good 5-6 years away.[/QUOTE]

Why not plan ahead? Sure it isn't an issue now, but we know it will be, so it makes no sense to ignore it for the next 4-5 years. In the long run, it makes sense to adopt the format with more longevity, especially since there doesn't seem to be any downside effects to supporting BD in the long run, over HD. All other factors: studio support, movie selection, software, price, will all be fixed in the long run for either format, which is why I base most of my decision on storage space. Sure we don't need it now, but it really would be beneficial at some point in time, for not too much added cost right now.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Did I say either of these?

No, I just said price/space wise you are much better off going with an external hard drive or multiple ones instead of any next-generation burner.

You can currently get a 1TB external hard drive for $350 or a 500GB one for $150. That's less than a Blu-Ray burner, let alone the 20/10 discs you would need to buy on top of that.

And that's just right now.

Hard drive prices are plummeting. It will be years before burners become affordable.

And I know "but I don't want to carry around a external hard drive, I want to carry around a binder full of disc :cry: ", what's to say the computer you are carrying the discs to will even have a reader? Remember how long it took for CDs to become the standard? Or even worse imagine you want to show your friend your rad Linux collection but he has a HD-DVD drive. I have yet to run into semi "modern" computer that hasn't had a USB port.

Seriously the last thing in your mind when you support a format is the burner situation. We are a good 5-6 years away.[/quote]
Being the PC geek that I am, it isn't for me., In 5-6 years we could have home made HD-video cameras, and imagine how much extra hd footage you could put on a 25gb disc of your own homemade videos? There are many uses for optical discs, and the extra 10gb is helpful for all of them.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Steven_Spielberg/Industry_Forecasts/Exclusive:_Spielberg_Big_Supporter_of_Blu-ray,_But_Future_High-Def_Releases_Uncertain/878
More rumblings of Speilberg being upset with Paramount for going exclusive, Him and his good, long time friend (George Lucas) essentially have the power to end this format war anytime they want.

EDIT: They use 7.1 uncompressed sound on movies, why not use it in video games?
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Sorry, I didn't know leaving everything uncompressed and leaving just about everything they create on a disc regardless if it's used or not "using the extra space"

It's as if I were to complain about hard drive space only because I was ripping all of my music in .WAV, saving all of my images as bitmaps and ripping all of my videos in .MPG2[/QUOTE]

What is sufficient now will always be sufficient, FACT.
 
[quote name='dpatel']Why not plan ahead? Sure it isn't an issue now, but we know it will be, so it makes no sense to ignore it for the next 4-5 years. [/QUOTE]

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']In 5-6 years we could have home made HD-video cameras[/QUOTE]

There is no ignoring it but alot of shit can change in 5-6 years when it comes to storage. What if that new hard drive idea HAMR comes to fruition earlier then expected? Or nanotube-lubricated HDDs? Or they start perfecting Perpendicular Recording? Or the price of Flash memory plummets? Or Holographic Versatile Disc get off the ground? Or Tapestry Media takes off?

The future of that is so foggy it's foolish to even try and guess what's going to happen.

Seriously, I won't even try. I was just talking about now to about 2-3 years from now. I'm not champing Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, I was just telling you want your best chances are money/data size wise. You're best bet is with hard drives, not next-gen optical (Blu/HD) burners.

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']
EDIT: They use 7.1 uncompressed sound on movies, why not use it in video games?[/QUOTE]

Why use uncompressed sound when you can use a compression method that won't lose quality?

Do you encode all of your music in .WAV instead of .FLAC? Why use PCM instead of TrueHD? What's the point of not using compression if you can cut the filesize in half while keeping the audio loseless? Just because you can?

[quote name='dpatel']What is sufficient now will always be sufficient, FACT.[/QUOTE]

You are a brick wall of pure ignorance and misinformation spin, FACT.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']There is no ignoring it but alot of shit can change in 5-6 years. What if that new hard drive idea HAMR comes to fruition earlier then expected? Or nanotube-lubricated HDDs? Or the price of Flash memory plummets? Or Holographic Versatile Disc get off the ground? Or Tapestry Media takes off?

The future of that is so foggy it's foolish to even try and guess what's going to happen.

Seriously, I won't even try. I was just talking about now to about 2 years from now. Nothing to do with Blu-Ray or HD-DVD.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree that there can and will be new technology 5-6 years down the line. But that still doesn't mean we should limit ourselves (however slight it may be) just in hopes that something better will come along.

Why use uncompressed sound when you can use a compression method that won't lose quality?

Why not have the option to do either? Why not give studios, game developers more room to breathe. I realize the extra 10GB per layer seems pretty excessive and unnecessary right now, but the formats WILL reach their limits at some point, and when that does happen, it would be nice to have that extra 10GB per layer (which can definitely add up, depending on how many layers are achieved).

[quote name='Sporadic']You are a brick wall of pure ignorance and misinformation spin, FACT.[/QUOTE]

Please point me to at least ONE statement I have made that backs up this argument, thanks.
 
It seems that your only complaint about BDs extra space is that it is CURRENTLY not worth the extra price, and unnecessary. I will agree that, at this point in time, both are true. However, I also know, looking at the rate at which technology is advances, neither of those will be true for long, which is why I wonder why you are using those as a reason to downplay BD. It's fine if you have other reasons, but those two reasons just don't make sense to me.
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']Being the PC geek that I am, it isn't for me., In 5-6 years we could have home made HD-video cameras, and imagine how much extra hd footage you could put on a 25gb disc of your own homemade videos? There are many uses for optical discs, and the extra 10gb is helpful for all of them.[/quote] It's not particularly helpful for discs of home made videos that you can't put a menu on. And that even if you don't include menus, many players can't read in the first place.

With no menus to make directly accessing content easier, even a BD9 or HD9 is more than plenty. 45 minutes of video is pretty generous for home movies. If you want more than that (you can fit about two hours on a BD25), wouldn't you want menus?

HD15 will allow you to store roughly 75 minutes of video, or you can get two and a half hours on an HD30. And you can use menus. And they'll play on every player. Those are not small benefits.
 
I wouldn't use either as a backup medium simply because the technology to burn the discs hasn't been proven to be reliable yet. Small errors can be costly with such expensive and expansive discs. Frankly, even DL DVD+/-R's are still expensive and those are still shoddy when it comes to burning.
 
Why use PCM instead of TrueHD?
Probably so studios don't have to pay Dolby.

However, I think it'd be best to have both PCM and TrueHD soundtracks on all discs like some of the better recent releases have had.
 
[quote name='dallow']Probably so studios don't have to pay Dolby.[/quote]
It's a lowest common denominator thing. Blu-Ray players are only required to support three audio codecs: Dolby Digital, DTS, and LPCM. Movies therefore are required to use at least one of those. So if they want better sound than 640kbps DD or 1.5Mbps DTS, they have to use LPCM if they want to make sure everyone can utilize it. TrueHD is more prevalent on HD DVD titles because it's a required part of the spec (2.0 is the minmum requirement, but all players thus far support 5.1) and therefore the studios can count on the user being able to utilize the soundtrack.

I don't think it's a cost issue at all because of the way Dolby and DTS licenses work. Paying for a Dolby (or DTS) license for a title covers ALL their codecs. So with one fee, studios can use any combination of DD, DD+, and TrueHD--or likewise, DTS, DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA. And if I'm not mistaken, most of the LPCM titles DO have a DD track as well (not necessarily in English), so the fee has already been paid. TrueHD wouldn't cost any extra. But not everyone could enjoy it, so LPCM is used as a "failsafe", provided the space and bandwidth is available.
 
[quote name='geko29']It's a lowest common denominator thing. Blu-Ray players are only required to support three audio codecs: Dolby Digital, DTS, and LPCM. Movies therefore are required to use at least one of those. So if they want better sound than 640kbps DD or 1.5Mbps DTS, they have to use LPCM if they want to make sure everyone can utilize it. TrueHD is more prevalent on HD DVD titles because it's a required part of the spec (2.0 is the minmum requirement, but all players thus far support 5.1) and therefore the studios can count on the user being able to utilize the soundtrack.

I don't think it's a cost issue at all because of the way Dolby and DTS licenses work. Paying for a Dolby (or DTS) license for a title covers ALL their codecs. So with one fee, studios can use any combination of DD, DD+, and TrueHD--or likewise, DTS, DTS-HD and DTS-HD MA. And if I'm not mistaken, most of the LPCM titles DO have a DD track as well (not necessarily in English), so the fee has already been paid. TrueHD wouldn't cost any extra. But not everyone could enjoy it, so LPCM is used as a "failsafe", provided the space and bandwidth is available.[/quote]Yes, every title has at least DD.
I see how it works out then.
Both is still the best option in my opinion.
 
hahaha I love the fact that yesterday everyone was flipping out about this exclusivity agreement yet Speilberg doesn't have to stay exclusive? Who the fuck cares than? I saw that Gizmo posted in the PS3 forums about "No transformers for you" Problem is Gizmo who cares? Even the director of the movie said that it is horse shit what paramount did.

It just further proves that even directors agree that this move is bad for consumers, that is my biggest gripe with this entire EXCLUSIVE deals that everyone has going on. Same goes for Sony.
 
[quote name='Maynard'] Even the director of the movie said that it is horse shit what paramount did.

[/QUOTE]

didn't he retract his statement right after he made it saying he didn't even think about it before he posted?
 
[quote name='rsigley']didn't he retract his statement right after he made it saying he didn't even think about it before he posted?[/quote]
Yeah but Bay still said it. I am not a big fan of Bay movies, they're all the same with some crazy ass chase sequence and shit blowing up everywhere. EVERY Bay movie stays the same the only thing that changes is the cast.
 
[quote name='dpatel']I totally agree that there can and will be new technology 5-6 years down the line. But that still doesn't mean we should limit ourselves (however slight it may be) just in hopes that something better will come along.[/QUOTE]

In a strickly storage sense, I don't believe using hard drives instead of any next gen optical disc when backing up date is "limiting outselves".

It cheap, bound to get even cheaper, GB wise they are becoming massive and they work with just about every computer.

[quote name='dpatel']Why not have the option to do either? Why not give studios, game developers more room to breathe. I realize the extra 10GB per layer seems pretty excessive and unnecessary right now, but the formats WILL reach their limits at some point, and when that does happen, it would be nice to have that extra 10GB per layer (which can definitely add up, depending on how many layers are achieved).[/QUOTE]

You can do either.

Paramount is using PCM on their upcoming "A Mighty Heart" disc.

What I'm trying to say is why wouldn't you compress sound if it doesn't harm the sound? Same with game developers, why leave all of the textures uncompressed? Again if you back up a CD, do you use .WAV or .FLAC? If you chose .WAV, would you use .FLAC if you knew that it cuts the filesize in half while still being loseless?

Yes, disc space is an issue but it isn't a major issue.

The guy from Paramount said it all, 1 disc will always be able to hold 1 movie, push come to shove you can just put the extras on a second disc and everyday, compression methods are getting better and better.

Not only that but 45GB and 51GB HD-DVDs are in development.

With game development, DVD should be able to carry us to the next Xbox. I would be willing to bet the farm that the next Xbox will use HD-DVD and 30GB should be more than enough to carry us through the next generation.

[quote name='dpatel']Please point me to at least ONE statement I have made that backs up this argument, thanks.[/QUOTE]

Ok.

How does this...

[quote name='Sporadic']Sorry, I didn't know leaving everything uncompressed and leaving just about everything they create on a disc regardless whether it's used or not "using the extra space"

It's as if I were to complain about hard drive space only because I was ripping all of my music in .WAV, saving all of my images as bitmaps and ripping all of my videos in .MPEG2.

- edit2 Yeah the space will be needed eventually but this is nothing like the PS1 days where everything is multi-disc. I can only think of one game that needs multiple disc and that's Blue Dragon since they use a ton of video. In-scene cutscenes and audio compression should see us through this game generation.[/QUOTE]

turn into your horrible replacement for that misquoted Bill Gates quote?

[quote name='dpatel']What is sufficient now will always be sufficient, FACT.[/QUOTE]

???

Yeah, that looks like misinformation spin to me.

And no matter what I post about compression or ingame cutscenes or fucking anything. You never move an inch and just continue parroting 50>30 at me. That seems like a brick wall of ignorance.
 
Flac is a bad example IMO, Although this may prove your point, with my sound system FLAC doesn't even sound better to me than MP3, but that is only because my sound system uses DTS: Neo which upconverts it very nicely. How many people though that 10 years ago we would need more than 4.7gb? Or how many people though 20 years ago we would need more than 650mb? There is always the chance to need more space. And you say there are already working on 45gb and 51gb HD-DVD's. Two points. 1. Will these be playable in every HD-DVD player? 2. There already IS a 50gb Blu-ray disc.

And Michael Bay did direct The Rock, thank god that is owned by Disney....
 
i think optical discs will always be behind hard disk storage...

hard drives are just too affordable right now..Heck flash drives are getting cheaper as well and they can match dvd size and are portable..

Not too mention it will be a while before we can burn to the hi def disks "quickly".


Burning at 15gb/25gb hd disc at 1x must be painful
 
[quote name='guyver2077']i think optical discs will always be behind hard disk storage...

hard drives are just too affordable right now..Heck flash drives are getting cheaper as well and they can match dvd size and are portable..[/quote]

Which is why I think from now on Portable gaming systems will use flash-based media, however, I don't think Flash drives will ever be able to compete with Optical media when it comes to size/price ratio.
 
[quote name='guyver2077']i think optical discs will always be behind hard disk storage...

hard drives are just too affordable right now..Heck flash drives are getting cheaper as well and they can match dvd size and are portable..[/quote]When you copy stuff and mail, or distribute to your friends, do you hand them a stack of harddrives, or a stack of DVDs?
 
[quote name='dallow']When you copy stuff and mail, or distribute to your friends, do you hand them a stack of harddrives, or a stack of DVDs?[/quote]

I distribute via the internet.

But i understand what you are trying to point out. What's good about dvd is that its dirt cheap so for that purpose it is ideal.
 
[quote name='guyver2077']I distribute via the internet.

But i understand what you are trying to point out. What's good about dvd is that its dirt cheap so for that purpose it is ideal.[/quote]Yarp, and I remember when I'd be crazy to "give away" one of my expensive DVD-rs.
 
[quote name='H.Cornerstone']Flac is a bad example IMO, Although this may prove your point, with my sound system FLAC doesn't even sound better to me than MP3, but that is only because my sound system uses DTS: Neo which upconverts it very nicely. [/QUOTE]

So FLAC is a bad example because you can't tell the difference?

Honestly most people can't tell the difference between V0 LAME MP3 and FLAC but that doesn't change the fact that FLAC is loseless while MP3 is lossy.

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']How many people though that 10 years ago we would need more than 4.7gb? Or how many people though 20 years ago we would need more than 650mb? There is always the chance to need more space. [/QUOTE]

You seem to be interpreting my lack of concern as disbelieve that we will actually need that space one day.

Trust me, I'm not.

iD's game RAGE is coming up and that is going to have an unheard of 20GBs of textures on it.

I guess if they release Grindhouse as a full movie with all of the trailers, it will be a tight squeeze.

Storage wise we are already having insane people back up HD movies at a something like 20GBs a movie.

The point is:

RAGE will be coming near the end of the Xbox 360's lifecycle so yeah that will need 2-3 DVDs but the next Xbox will have a next-gen disc, so it's a non-factor right now.

Even if they release Grindhouse completely the way they did in theaters, they only have to put the movie on one disc and the extras on the other. Compression is getting better and the amount of content we can fit on one disc is getting better.

Storage wise hard drive price are going down at an insane rate and next gen optical disc are well a non-factor right now.

[quote name='H.Cornerstone']And you say there are already working on 45gb and 51gb HD-DVD's. Two points. 1. Will these be playable in every HD-DVD player? 2. There already IS a 50gb Blu-ray disc. [/QUOTE]

1) As far as I know 45 yes, 51 no.

2) Yeah, there is but they aren't using it.

Most BR releases are on single layer disc while most of HD-DVD release are double. On both formats, burnable disc are only single layer disc.

- edit [quote name='guyver2077']I distribute via the internet. [/QUOTE]

Same here.

[quote name='dallow']When you copy stuff and mail, or distribute to your friends, do you hand them a stack of harddrives, or a stack of DVDs?[/QUOTE]

Good luck handing your friend a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD R. I'm willing to bet they won't have a drive to play it.

Hard drives on the other hand use USB. Everybody has USB.

That's what I'm trying to point out.

For backup purposes, HDDs win hands down right now and for years to come.

And you keep talking about giving them to your friends as if they all already have drives. Remember how long it took for DVD to catch on? CD? Chances are it will be a long time before next-gen optical drives become the standard or even worse what if you go to give your friend a Blu-Ray and they have a Toshiba computer with HD-DVD? You're way of giving them data is now useless.

And what the hell are you planning on giving your friend where you would have to give them multiple harddrives even if you did want to loan something out?
 
Well they are filling up that br space as from what ive seen. I forget what movie (maybe casino) is around 40 something gb....

But again.. a lot is padding or possibly uncompressed audio.

I think into the blue was like 19gb.

Im going to look at this closer when i get home
 
[quote name='guyver2077']Well they are filling up that br space as from what ive seen. I forget what movie (maybe casino) is around 40 something gb....[/quote] It wasn't Casino, because it's not available on Blu-Ray.

Pearl Harbor is 42GB MPEG-2 24/48 LPCM, Kingdom of Heaven is 42GB MPEG-2 24/48 DTS-HD MA, while The Patriot is 43GB AVC 16/48 LPCM. Those are the biggest I've found.
 
Paramount CTO Speaks out on why they chose HD DVD

In an interview in PC World Magazine, Bell said that after publishing titles on both formats, Paramount had found HD DVD to have more stable tech specs and leaner programming code than its high-def rival, advantages that the executive attributes directly to the format's outgrowth out of the DVD Forum.

"[HD DVD] was launched in a very stable way, with stable specifications, and they had specified a reference player model, so all players had to be compatible with the HDi interactivity layer, and all players had to be capable of the interactivity," explained Bell. "That speaks to the DVD Forum, that it published specs that were complete and market-ready, and that it didn't need to publish up [and change the specs], as Blu-ray has. To some degree, [such changes are] going to create some legacy issues."
Of Blu-ray's greater storage capacity than HD DVD, the executive called it "a little bit overrated," saying that most titles don't require a capcity more than 30GB, and in cases where they do, Paramount would issue a second disc for bonus features.


"Making a choice like the one Paramount has made is a multifaceted choice," said Bell. "It depends upon manufacturability, the reliability of players, the cost, the infrastructure that's developed to support our creation of titles. Many different factors came into play--including capacity. When Paramount made this decision, we considered the broad spectrum."
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Paramount/Paramount_CTO_Speaks_Out_On_Switch_to_HD_DVD/885

PCWorld Q&A: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136253-c,dvdtechnology/article.html

He makes a lot of great points...hope others notice and switch over or atleast go neutral. Its about time HD DVD has some solid backup.
 
[quote name='LinkinPrime']Paramount CTO Speaks out on why they chose HD DVD


http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Paramount/Paramount_CTO_Speaks_Out_On_Switch_to_HD_DVD/885

PCWorld Q&A: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136253-c,dvdtechnology/article.html

He makes a lot of great points...hope others notice and switch over or atleast go neutral. Its about time HD DVD has some solid backup.[/QUOTE]

See zewone, I was right ;)

http://cheapassgamer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3267243&postcount=1938

http://cheapassgamer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3266470&postcount=1919

[quote name='geko29']It wasn't Casino, because it's not available on Blu-Ray.[/QUOTE]

I think he meant Casino Royale.
 
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