LOST Season 5 Discussion - 5/13: The Incident -

I see the reason for all the time traveling. Since the flashbacks are no longer dominant, the time travel just allows us to see the past, but most importantly so those who survived the crash can actually WITNESS it. So we'll possibly get to see the promised Roussou backstory in this fashion. Montand's arm probably got cut off the same way Juliet's almost did. So that, for once, their questions are answered as much as ours.

Next week I hope Sawyer goes and digs up them diamonds. ;) And maybe for them to find Ben caught in that net with some comic relief of him trying to convince them he's Henry Gale when they all know he's full of shit.
 
[quote name='darthbudge']Was Faraday lying/not sure when he said that the future couldn't be changed?

We know that he changed the future with Desmond, but Desmond was special somehow. What about all these other events? If they hadn't been jumping around like this, Locke would have never been able to tell Richard to come meet him as a child. Or are Locke and Richard also exceptions to the rule like Desmond?[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure, after much discussion, I've got the time-travel thing figured out. As much as it can be, anyway.

Faraday was NOT lying when he said that the future couldn't be changed. As someone explained it previously, what happened, happened. If you go back in time to "change" something, you've always been there "changing" it.

EXCEPT, right after the scene where Faraday tells Sawyer to stop banging on the door because you can't change anything, he appears to realize something, runs to his pack, and starts flipping through his journal. After reading, he starts banging on the door, saying "Please let this work. Please let this work."

I think the implication here is that Faraday figured out Desmond was special, and his being special means you CAN change his past. Which is how Faraday "creates" the memory that Des has. There doesn't seem to be any indication that anybody else's past or future can be altered like his.
 
[quote name='jollydwarf']Well, as long as we don't see her trying to make a move on Daniel in a Dharma Volkswagen van....[/QUOTE]

We could have a futurama scenario if that happened.
 
"Desmond is special" may nuke my fridge.

The writers want lots of twists and turns but can't make all the ends meet, so they turn Desmond into the Lost Superman. Nothing like naked Deus Ex Machina.

Why don't they just have Jack wake up as the plane lands in LA "it was all a dream!"
 
[quote name='camoor']"Desmond is special" may nuke my fridge.

The writers want lots of twists and turns but can't make all the ends meet, so they turn Desmond into the Lost Superman. Nothing like naked Deus Ex Machina.

Why don't they just have Jack wake up as the plane lands in LA "it was all a dream!"[/quote]

Is that an Indiana Jones reference?
 
[quote name='elpolloestupendo']EXCEPT, right after the scene where Faraday tells Sawyer to stop banging on the door because you can't change anything, he appears to realize something, runs to his pack, and starts flipping through his journal. After reading, he starts banging on the door, saying "Please let this work. Please let this work."

I think the implication here is that Faraday figured out Desmond was special, and his being special means you CAN change his past. Which is how Faraday "creates" the memory that Des has. There doesn't seem to be any indication that anybody else's past or future can be altered like his.[/quote]

I think Faraday controls a lot more than we realize. I believe that Faraday is more or less stuck in a loop in time and he has everything he is supposed to do written down in his notebook. Sawyer knocking on the hatch door reminds Faraday that he is supposed to do it, Faraday goes over to his trusty notebook, looks it up, sees that he is supposed to do it and then does it. I think that is why Faraday seems confused most of the time, since he doesn't have to remember only where he is, but when he is as well.
 
[quote name='camoor']

Why don't they just have Jack wake up as the plane lands in LA "it was all a dream!"[/quote]

And Patrick Duffy should be sitting next to him saying "I hate it when that happens"
 
Ok, the whole Alpert, Locke, pocket watch thing brought up a question in my mind. Maybe I'm over-thinking it, or just not thinking at all, but...
Where/when did the watch come from? Simple enough question I think. Pretty much, who had it first and when/what is it's origin?

I don't think the question has any relevance... to anything, but for some reason I keep thinking about it.
 
here we go. i just hope that its not all off the island this week... which im afraid off because last week was all on the island.
 
It wasn't a pocket watch. It was a compass. The compass Alpert gave Locke to convince him his story wasn't bullshit. Then Locke showed it to Alpert but still thought Locke was full of shit. Then Alpert tried to get Locke to recognize it in the future (while Locke was still a child).

Man, I thought this time travel stuff would be lame but it's fucking awesome. I knew we'd finally get Rousseau's story in a postmortem fashion. My dad says he read some article bashing the time travel element and the author is probably eating his words after the last two episodes. MONTAND IS THERE, we get to see how he loses his arm!

Life On Mars is destined to be cancelled. Last week Lost got an ungodly number of viewers that all vanished once Lost On Mars started. Now they're doing another lameass tactic like they did with that godawful Eli Stone show by injecting more Lost material to bribe people into watching.
 
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Life On Mars is destined to be cancelled.

And that's why I won't watch. I don't want to invest in a show that's almost inevitably going to fail well before it gets the chance to jump any sharks. Pretty much a quintessential self-fulfilling prophecy, I know.

Concerning the show that's going to end in a little over a year, before anyone can even dream of canceling it (sniffle!), I thought tonight, by the show's standards, was kind of muddled and middle-of-the-road. Very much a set-up episode, though. The penultimate 'twist' was kind of a shock, but the final revelation was more like stating what the audience knew the instant the character appeared on the screen.

P.S. In the teaser for next week,
it looks like Locke finds a well that pre-dates the Orchid, probably leading right to the source of the energy by the wheel. Interesting that he seems terrified about something below, like something unexpected happened or was about to happen.
 
Hey question;

I've been a huge LOST fan since episode 1. The last episode of season 4 left me a little annoyed, so when Season 5 started I kind of missed the first episode and haven't tried to watch em.

SO, is it worth me starting it again? How far is Season 5 now>?
 
[quote name='jollydwarf']Life On Mars is destined to be cancelled.

And that's why I won't watch. I don't want to invest in a show that's almost inevitably going to fail well before it gets the chance to jump any sharks. Pretty much a quintessential self-fulfilling prophecy, I know.

[/quote]

I have a feeling its going to be canceled too. Never watched it but it just doesn't seem interesting..
What was the "lost untangled" (I think) they were talking about. Said to stay tuned to "life on mars" to find out.
 
What was the "lost untangled" (I think) they were talking about. Said to stay tuned to "life on mars" to find out.

1.) It's probably fairly 'remedial' LOST information, for those that tune in then drop out then tune in again with no regularity.

2.) It'll probably show up on YouTube, amongst other places, if it hasn't already.
 
Problem with Life On Mars is it's a cop show about a guy who gets knocked out and wakes up in the 70s...and the show creators seem to have forgotten that fact he TRAVELED THROUGH fuckING TIME! It would be like if one episode Sanford & Son were living in a mansion and they never explained why.
 
This week's episode dragged on and on and on. Everything that was revealed, was like "Yeah...? I figured that anyways".
 
[quote name='bigdaddy']This week's episode dragged on and on and on. Everything that was revealed, was like "Yeah...? I figured that anyways".[/QUOTE]

This.
 
So here's what we got from this episode - Jin's alive, Miles and Juliette are getting nosebleeds, Ben wanted Aaron, Sun wants to kill Ben, and the Frenchies are going to get their story.

Faraday alluded to Miles being on the island before (lending credibility that Miles was the baby that the Asian video guy was making a bottle for on the island).

I liked the episode, but it didn't have as much "meat" as the previous episodes this season. Then again, we need one of these episodes to introduce characters and still advance the story. We'll get to find out what happened to Rousseau's team (as they'll presumably all get "sick") and we'll add Jin to the mix as well. Still wanna find out who was shooting at the kayak.
 
[quote name='JJSP']So here's what we got from this episode - Jin's alive, Miles and Juliette are getting nosebleeds, Ben wanted Aaron, Sun wants to kill Ben, and the Frenchies are going to get their story.
[/quote]


Yeah... so?
Yeah... everyone will...
Ben wants everyone...
Everyone should want to kill Ben...
 
And miles is probably the asian scientists from the intro video's son. And Aaron is probably the future leader.. hence the title of the episode "the little prince"
 
[quote name='homeland']And miles is probably the asian scientists from the intro video's son. And Aaron is probably the future leader.. hence the title of the episode "the little prince"[/quote]


Never thought of that. I like this.

Personally I would have liked it if Clair's mother actually wanted Aaron. Not that I know anyway they coulda worked that out but IMO it would have been a better twist (if you call it that) then 'Jin's Alive and is with Danielle'.

Still interested in how they are going to tell Libby's back story.
 
I'm still waiting for them to kick it up a notch. The pace of the recent episodes has been terribly slow for my tastes.

How did the boat travel with them through time when the boat wasn't part of the initial time flux? I was seriously hoping that when Sawyer was excited to travel through time again that they'd all be dumped into the ocean. :bomb:
 
[quote name='Magehart']

How did the boat travel with them through time when the boat wasn't part of the initial time flux? I was seriously hoping that when Sawyer was excited to travel through time again that they'd all be dumped into the ocean. :bomb:[/QUOTE]

seems like items they have also travel, like the guns they stole from the og others.
 
[quote name='Magehart']I'm still waiting for them to kick it up a notch. The pace of the recent episodes has been terribly slow for my tastes.

How did the boat travel with them through time when the boat wasn't part of the initial time flux? I was seriously hoping that when Sawyer was excited to travel through time again that they'd all be dumped into the ocean. :bomb:[/QUOTE]

Perhaps anything they're in contact with also travels with them, like the compass Richard gave Locke.

I thought the episode was good. Not sure if Aaron is the future leader like homeland said... Anyways, I think bigdaddy said it best. Also, if Miles was really on the island before (I think some of you alluded that he was the Asian Dharma baby), then Charlotte was too-- but how?

Ugh, no one likes Sun anymore.
 
Personally I would have liked it if Clair's mother actually wanted Aaron.

I'm indifferent on that matter, but I have to wonder why she had the same legal representation as Ben. Kate even openly questions the possibility that it's just coincidence, and we all know by now how the show tends to make a priority for that not to be the explanation for anything noteworthy.

I'm still waiting for them to kick it up a notch. The pace of the recent episodes has been terribly slow for my tastes.

Aside from the season premiere, I kind of agree. I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that the small group 'leaping' on the island doesn't really have a great group chemistry (and Miles seems more subdued this year...why?). Also, the Oceanic Six on the whole seem far less likable in the "Three Years Later" scenario, and they seem 'out of their element' in the 'real world'/L.A. I realize that maybe that's the idea, but it's wearing on me pretty quickly.

I'm also wonder how long they can keep the time-shifting on the island going. Eventually, it's going to give most viewers a nosebleed, too. There's no sense of stability, which, again, is probably the idea, but it doesn't allow the viewer to get acquainted with a certain time, and the flashes seem to serve the convenience of the writers more than the island. That is...unless the controlling force behind the flashes happening when they happen is not pure science, but a sentient force, benevolent and/or malevolent.

The saving grace, I believe, will be that the first handful of episodes are merely bringing people together and setting up the 'stretch run', which would begin when the Oceanic Six return (c'mon, you KNOW they'll get back). I just hope that this necessary slower build-up and confusion is "all part of the plan" and not also a byproduct of a slip in the writing department.


P.S. While this isn't really an integral specific mystery of the show, it's been bugging me lately. Richard gave Locke the worn-looking compass at a certain point in time after 1954. Locke gives Richard the compass in 1954, and it appears that Richard has never seen it before. These events seem to conform to Faraday's 'can't change the timeline' theory. So where did the compass originate from? I'm not asking which person gave the compass to the other 'first', but how was it created or manufactured?? I guess it was always there? I can kind of accept that mindfuck if it's something like the island itself, but given that such a compass is clearly of a manmade appearance, that shit freaks me out. I'm not even saying that Jacob or the island--"poof!"--made it appear at an arbitrary point in time along the loop of possession. I'm saying that it has no beginning...and given that it never exists after Richard gives it to Locke, no end, either. (!!!)
 
[quote name='jollydwarf']I'm not asking which person gave the compass to the other 'first', but how was it created or manufactured??[/QUOTE]

Taken from darkufo.blogspot.com:

"That being said, this explains a LOT of things. First, it explains why Richard gave Locke the compass. Last week arguments raged regarding the paradox of "If Richard gave Locke the compass, and Richard had it because Locke gave it to him, then who had it in the first place?" Chicken or the egg? Very paradoxical... but only if you assume there can only be one compass. Although we never see two Lockes or two Sawyers, we can assume there were two of each of them on the island the night that Boone died. This means there can also be two compasses. Future Richard gave Locke his compass and told him to give it to past Richard. I'm guess that when Locke made the hand-off, Richard already had his compass. So now he's holding two of them, identical to each other, lending weight and credence to Locke's time-traveler story. Future Richard did this to convince his past self that Locke wasn't crazy or lying."

So... It's just a regular compass?
 
[quote name='JJSP']Faraday alluded to Miles being on the island before (lending credibility that Miles was the baby that the Asian video guy was making a bottle for on the island).[/quote]

Wha? I don't remember that...do you recall what season this occurred on?
 
No, not all at. Great catch. Or find. Or job. Regardless, nice work.

So... It's just a regular compass?

Word of Honor...I already momentarily mulled over the 'two compass' theory (not that I saw that DarkUFO post), but it felt sort of cheap. I almost got the impression that the exchange loop was symbolic for the larger premise of the show, in that the infinite has no beginning and end, and that what's going on that island has always happened and always will happen, our sense of origin and termination and our inability to wrap our minds around the infinite be damned.

Well, until Desmond or Walt or someone breaks "the rules", anyway.

EDIT Speaking of Walt, I agree with that DarkUFO blog post...except I don't think it's "Season One Walt" that's the time-skipper. I think that's most likely the smoke monster (although I have NO idea why he's always soaked). I do however believe the Walt that tells Locke in the mass Dharma grave to "get up" because he has "work to do" is the post-Jeremy Bentham Walt. Heck, Locke even openly notes early in Season Four that the Walt he saw was taller.
 
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[quote name='LinkinPrime']Wha? I don't remember that...do you recall what season this occurred on?[/quote]
Last night's episode, Miles and Faraday were walking and talking about the nosebleeds - Miles asked why it was happening, and Faraday said it had to do with continued exposure to the island. Miles asked why it hadn't happened to Juliet/Sawyer/Locke, and remarked that he'd never been on the island before - Faraday plainly asked him "are you sure about that?"

We saw the Asian orientation video guy waking up earlier this season to heat up a bottle for his son, just before he went down to the tunnel they were building (Faraday showed up just after that too) in the 1970's. That'd make Miles late 20's, early 30's - just about where he is now.

The title "The Little Prince" refers to a book, and not necessarily to Aaron. The bottle that Locke kicked over with French writing on it is apparently Rousseau's boat's name, and it translates to an asteroid named after a character in the book.
 
[quote name='jollydwarf']
I'm also wonder how long they can keep the time-shifting on the island going.[/quote]

Probably just 1-2 more episodes. The time shifting is going on because the island is still "in limbo" but Ben knows when it's going to appear again in the current timeframe (less then 3 days from the point him and Jack corpsejack Locke). Only for the islanders they'll probably have been time shifting for 3 years and will be batshit crazy by the time Jack & Crew rescue them, lol.
 
Yeah to the islanders it's been a day or two since the boat blew up, but three years have past. Can't wait to see that.
 
Ok episode, but the weakest of the season so far. Other than Jin being alive not real reveals.

They really need to get everyone back on the island and the time shifting stopped soon.
 
new episode tonight...

funny thing happened monday. my brother was over hanging out, there was nothing on tv. but sci fi HD had the Lost pilot on. so i put it on, half joking and he sat and watched the whole thing. now he has been totally anti lost because he doesnt want to get into it and he thought the whole stuck-on-an-island premise was stupid. well tuesday night we watched four more episodes from the dvds and today he texted me and said "you might as well let me borrow the dvds". i was like yup, Lost will do that to you. i got my gf hooked the same way, i kept telling her "just watch the first episode", she finally caved and totally hooked. now the pressure is on to get my brother caught up before the end of this season so he can join us for our Lost wednesday night "parties", where we have a couple friends come over and watch because we have HD.
 
Alright.

I've always been a huge fan of Lost. Got all the DVDs. Got the game, video and board. Got tons of stupid shit. Love it.

But this season has been terrible.

Every episode except for "Because You Left" has dragged on and on. I don't care about the Oceanic Six at all, especially when all of the interesting plots are on the island. The "convenient time travel flash at every pivotal plot moment" shit got old in the first episode. We all get it, Eloise Hawking is Faraday's mom. Do something interesting, show.

I haven't been this disappointed in this show since the "mini-arc" at the beginning of Season 3. I've gotten to the same point I was at then--watching the show I love seems like a chore. The worst part is that I seem to be alone--all my Lost-watching friends and all the boards I frequent with a Lost-watching community have been jacking off to every episode.

I hope the show stops being terribad tonight.
 
OK, I happened to watch Donnie Darko yesterday and started reading up on theories about the time traveling, which also happened to lead me to some ideas with Lost.

Please bear with me, because this will probably be hard to understand, anyone familiar with the time travel theory in Donnie Darko will probably understand it better though.

We know that the Oceanic Six leaving, and Ben moving that wheel caused the time loop to happen. When this happened, two distinct universes were created. One would be the primary universe (PU), which is inhabited by everyone off of the island. The second universe, the tangent universe (TU), is inhabited by everyone on the island.

Because they left the island, this TU was created and it has since been looping over and over again, whilst jumping through time. John, (maybe Ben as well) who stayed on the island is the key to stopping this time loop. He has to convince the Oceanic Six through any means to come back to the island and rectify this error in time, stopping the time loop and closing the TU, merging it back with the PU and everything would continue as normal in life.

This would also back up why outside of the island, 3 years have passed, but on the island it has only been a few days. Because basically, they, everyone in the TU, are repeating the same days over and over again, just in different time periods.

Also, it supports Daniel's "You Can't Change Anything" theory, because simply they are repeating the same thing over and over again. They are not changing reality, the PU, but instead the TU which is only in existence to get John and possibly Ben to bring back everyone to the island. Once the Oceanic Six returns to the island, and the TU is closed, everything that they changed to make that happen will simply go away.

While this is a fairly rough theory, I do think explains it fairly well. Since I know the people behind Lost are big Sci-Fi fans, no doubt some of them would be familiar with this line of time travel theory, and maybe they stole some of it.
 
[quote name='darthbudge']OK, I happened to watch Donnie Darko yesterday and started reading up on theories about the time traveling, which also happened to lead me to some ideas with Lost.

Please bear with me, because this will probably be hard to understand, anyone familiar with the time travel theory in Donnie Darko will probably understand it better though.

We know that the Oceanic Six leaving, and Ben moving that wheel caused the time loop to happen. When this happened, two distinct universes were created. One would be the primary universe (PU), which is inhabited by everyone off of the island. The second universe, the tangent universe (TU), is inhabited by everyone on the island.

Because they left the island, this TU was created and it has since been looping over and over again, whilst jumping through time. John, (maybe Ben as well) who stayed on the island is the key to stopping this time loop. He has to convince the Oceanic Six through any means to come back to the island and rectify this error in time, stopping the time loop and closing the TU, merging it back with the PU and everything would continue as normal in life.

This would also back up why outside of the island, 3 years have passed, but on the island it has only been a few days. Because basically, they, everyone in the TU, are repeating the same days over and over again, just in different time periods.

Also, it supports Daniel's "You Can't Change Anything" theory, because simply they are repeating the same thing over and over again. They are not changing reality, the PU, but instead the TU which is only in existence to get John and possibly Ben to bring back everyone to the island. Once the Oceanic Six returns to the island, and the TU is closed, everything that they changed to make that happen will simply go away.

While this is a fairly rough theory, I do think explains it fairly well. Since I know the people behind Lost are big Sci-Fi fans, no doubt some of them would be familiar with this line of time travel theory, and maybe they stole some of it.[/QUOTE]

i think youre looking too much into it. i think that 3 years have passed off the island becuase, 3 years have passed off the island. the people on the island are still in 2005, but off the island its been 3 years and its 2008/9. i suspect that over the next season or so 3 years wll pass on the island and when they finally get back together itll be 2009.

as for not being able to change the past, i think they are just using david lewis' theory of compossibility. basically, you cant change the past because the past has already happened, if you try to, something will stop you. (the exception being the daniel/desmond relationship)

the thing about time travel is, as far as we know its not real, so you cant go around mixing ficiontal. what works in donnie darko time travel doesnt work in lost time travel, but maybe itll work in back to the future time travel, but it wont work in terminator or star trek time travel.

edit: uh oh, 9pm eastern, i wont be back in this thread for about 4 hours.
 
Nine. Out of ten. Makes one wonder what the hell went wrong with last week's episode, which felt like it was brought to you by the minds behind the last two seasons of Heroes. Need to watch it again to put more specific thoughts together. I will say, however, that it appears now like the series is either going to have a very bleak ending, or someone will be the 'savior' that changes the timeline.

I also liked Faraday's line
about where the science of it all only predicts things up to a point. I was getting worried that they were getting away from the "Man of Science, Man of Faith" debate in favor of explaining everything through mindfuck time travel.
 
Although I enjoyed tonight's episode, I still miss the "holy shit" cliffhangers.
This whole season they have twist that they already confirm or is just way to predictable. I guess they are gone for good and just left with little 'teases'.

[quote name='billyrox']man, Jack's dad still freaks me out... geez who the hell is he[/quote]
I'm sure the writers will find a way to make him 'jacob'.
 
I don't know...he specifically told Locke he wasn't, and they already gave the audience the misdirection of letting Hurley see him in the cabin in the Season Four premiere. Unless the writers had some incredibly creative and trippy way of making Christian Jacob without really contradicting his aforementioned denial, it would feel incredibly cheap.

Personally, I think Christian is Jacob's servant, his right-hand man. Much like Vader was the Emperor's. And of course we all know that Vader was redeemed through his son by saving his son. Not like the show hasn't made its "Original Trilogy" influences repeatedly apparent.
 
LOST is getting so confusing that I have to watch last week's show with the bubble explanations on the bottom of the screen.

Then I watch the new episode and become more confused until next week.
 
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