Agreed, everybody should know different positions. I think the regular team has played every single position on the team. The one position I havn't played as of yet is Left Wing, but that doesn't mean I don't know how to play it. Sure my specialty is D but when needed to step up I will and if that means resetting my stats I will gladly do it. The thing when playing D is, your not there to score goals you there to help against them. Sure, sometimes there might be one D man back if we miss a hit, but that happens. You just have to know how to deal with the pressure with either a Stick lift or a poke check. Nothing much more that I can really think of, except that we are more than others and on nights when it isn't even hockey night really cause we like the game and like to play with each other (some times literally ).
[quote name='DestroVega']Dude, that's not what I meant at all. You are able to play more than me AND obviously you are better, or else they wouldn't choose you to be on what is essentially the first line. All I said was if you weren't on the team at all, I think I can do the job at the position. it wasn't anything directed towards you at all, and please don't take it that way.
I was only pointing out the facts of this situation and how I rate myself. Again, I thought me playing D for this situation was "taking one for the team," I didn't whine that I should play LW like I normally do. But then after I do that, and essentially do what was suggested of me, Matt throws me under the bus and points the finger at me. I don't really think that's cool or what truly went down. That's why I'm asking Nate to chime in.
Maybe I was suggested to play D because my opinion of myself at LW isn't what everyone elses is, I'd like to know that too.
But honestly, Stat, I've said all along, go back and read all my posts, that you 5 are the best players. I don't feel like you "stole" anything, I just think i can hold my own and produce when given the chance there. I hope you get my point.
I threw a lot of it on myself for last night, even more than maybe should have been, and still I was the first thrown under the bus?[/QUOTE]
My bad then, I was just surprised to see myself singled out there like that.
All right, I've had a night to sleep on it. And while I'm not as enraged as I was last night, I do think everybody needs to specifically know what they did that contributed to everything going wrong.
It pretty much starts with defense. And our team defense overall was pretty terrible. This stemmed from people either not playing or straight up NOT KNOWING what they should be doing. As it's been stated many times, we play a zone defense, with the center being responsible for pressuring the puck carrier into hopefully making a bad pass or losing the puck. The wingers and d-men basically each have a box that they are responsible for. When the puck is in your box, GO AFTER IT. When it's not, play the passing lane and do your best to disrupt any scoring chances. Other than the rare times (and they should be) when you're covering for a teammate, this is where you should be.
Basically this same thing has been posted in the OP for months, but here's a version that hopefully defines things a little better. Notice that the boxes overlap, so when your defensive partner is pressuring the puck along the boards, you should step up to the far end of your box on his side to help cover. Simple.
Last night, we had people all over the place. One specific play I remember had Ltor dropping down to dig a puck out of the left corner, with me there helping...which left Matt just standing in front of the net. And what happened? The team passed back to the left point for a wide open shot. On that play, Ltor is out of position...which causes Matt to be out of position. And when that happens we end up scrambling and just chasing the open man (who shouldn't be open to begin with).
Another huge issue was our passing. Unfortunately, since we could hardly get the puck up the ice, I don't know if this was a team wide issue. But the defenseman really hurt us in this area (both of you). When you throw limp dick passes up the ice that your intended target has to chase down, it kills ANY AND ALL scoring chance. We had passes that went wide of people, passes that were too soft, passes that were too hard, passes that bounced off the boards to no one, horizontal passes. You name it. The passing was complete and utter shit. Defensemen really need to think beyond the right trigger for getting the puck up the ice. There's cross corner flips, slapshots around the boards, plain old wristshots, etc. You HAVE to expand your skillset. LEARN HOW TO PASS!
I do agree with Destro that he's not ready to play defenseman though. The problem was nobody else is either. I think the suggestion for Destro to join Matt on the defensive line mostly came up because he had the most overall experience (and that was when we thought Sean was playing center), and at some point, you need to just know how to play. I could have switched and played RD, but then we didn't have anyone who could win faceoffs, so what good would that do? When Shady offered to switch with you, you reminded us that you can't play RW...which just limits things even further.
I think that shows the bigger issue...and that's how limited everyone is position wise. There's no reason everybody can't learn to play defenseman (or God forbid, multiple forward positions) and do it serviceably well. If you can do it, you'll see your defense from the forward position improve tremendously as well. In all honesty, playing forward is far easier because you have two teammates to make you look good (lest we forget that MagicKing...MAGICKING had the team record for goals in a game with 5).
Matt, my biggest issue with you, ironically, is exactly what you said. You've played the game a long time (since NHL 09), you play often (at least lately), and you generally know how to play your position. The problem is, for all that experience, you're not nearly as good as you should be. Your passing is mostly terrible, you turn the puck over a lot, react slow to plays in front of you, take bad routes to the puck, etc.
I hate it because I know you try really hard, but for whatever reason, you seem to struggle with just "getting" this game more than anyone. The only thing I can think to suggest is just to put in more time. For someone pursuing his legend card, you've still never played a single drop-in game and the only time you play is with the CAG team. Maybe that's limiting you. If you need to know, if we were dividing the team into A and B teams, you would be on the B team. I'm sorry, but that's what your skills dictate.
Ultimately, it's not about losing last night's game. It accomplished what we wanted it to, and gave everyone a shot to play in the playoffs. The issue is, going forward, where does everyone play? I'm still fine with having open Hockey Nights and giving everyone a chance to improve (after all, we still haven't even won an Amateur banner, so finishing next season as an Amateur team is just fine with me). But from here on out, the playoffs need to be the best 5 players. Period. The only reason we're pushing anybody is because we want a full team of "first line" players. After all, that was the expectation for the team this year. We're far removed from the Flying-V, "pack it in!", "damn cross creases!" team that we started out as in 2008. It would just be great for everyone to move beyond that.
I haven't gotten through the rest of the replies yet since I just signed on and am about to try to schedule my Madden league game, but I will address this now:
[quote name='DestroVega']
But then after I do that, and essentially do what was suggested of me, Matt throws me under the bus and points the finger at me. I don't really think that's cool or what truly went down.
[/QUOTE]
I guess you didn't read the following:
[quote name='Matt Young']
The reason I was mostly criticizing Destro during the game was because he was my defensive partner and his mistakes directly affected me more than it did the forwards and because that's the position I know well and have experience with. [/QUOTE]
I said "in the game" in the post, but that carries over into the thread as well.
EDIT: Nate, I have played drop-in games, including one or two with Alan and Brandon involved. I haven't played that many, though. I'd agree that I'd be on the B-team if Gary and Alan are playing defenseman, but not in any other case. There's only so much I can do about the passing when the puck doesn't go where I aim it with the stick and I'm constantly being told to do one thing one night (or even one game) and then told that's wrong the next time I do it. That does nothing but make it harder for me.
My other problem has nothing to do with skill or contradictory coaching, but what you guys already know about my health issues. Sometimes, I'm completely drained and I can't focus. Before, I would simply not play, but I was criticized for that, so I made an effort to play more even if I wasn't feeling well. Can't win either way, it seems.
Still, I don't take any of this personally. I know it has to do with the game. I just don't agree with certain things that have been said.
Also, I think I'm going to take a break from NHL tonight. Going to take my wife out to dinner and have a relaxing evening. I'll be ready to go for the March season though.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']Also, I think I'm going to take a break from NHL tonight. Going to take my wife out to dinner and have a relaxing evening.[/QUOTE]
I'll be on after the wife goes to bed for what it's worth. Tonight is a good night to work towards fixing any lingering issues that some have, since we can play club games without them counting.
Yeah but Matt, couldn't I then say the same thing? I just didn't think it was fair for anyone to call anyone out other than Nate, that's all. It was all around crappy.
As far as being able to play multiple positions, that's all fair. But I haven't put enough time in at other positions, is there a way to check that out?
I definitely could play RW and C, what I was trying to say last night when Shady said he could switch was only that, if I couldn't move to my strongest set, why change? I thought I was at least adequate in the practice runs before that.
All in all, I always agreed the playoff team should be the strongest guys, and always agreed it was the 5 of you who have been playing. I just wish I could play as much, I can't. But I really enjoy playing and enjoy playing with you guys.
EDIT: I figured tonight might be a low turn out due to last night and a somewhat "burn out" which sucks cause I was really looking forward to it but if anyone ends up playing I'll be around.
[quote name='DestroVega']Yeah but Matt, couldn't I then say the same thing? I just didn't think it was fair for anyone to call anyone out other than Nate, that's all. It was all around crappy.[/QUOTE]
Why is Nate the only one who can critique other people's play? All of us have been encouraged to speak up if we see an issue that needs to be addressed. Nate has said that himself. You're not the only person whose play style I've critiqued, and I've had others critique me. I've been around on this team just as long (actually longer) than Nate if that's the issue you have, but to me it doesn't matter how long a person has been on the team. If you see something that you think needs fixing, you should make it known, whether you've been on the team for 3 years or 3 months.
[quote name='Matt Young']EDIT: Nate, I have played drop-in games, including one or two with Alan and Brandon involved. I haven't played that many, though. I'd agree that I'd be on the B-team if Gary and Alan are playing defenseman, but not in any other case. There's only so much I can do about the passing when the puck doesn't go where I aim it with the stick and I'm constantly being told to do one thing one night (or even one game) and then told that's wrong the next time I do it. That does nothing but make it harder for me.
My other problem has nothing to do with skill or contradictory coaching, but what you guys already know about my health issues. Sometimes, I'm completely drained and I can't focus. Before, I would simply not play, but I was criticized for that, so I made an effort to play more even if I wasn't feeling well. Can't win either way, it seems.
Still, I don't take any of this personally. I know it has to do with the game. I just don't agree with certain things that have been said.[/QUOTE]
Well, you're certainly the best at making defensive posts...
[quote name='Matt Young']Why is Nate the only one who can critique other people's play? All of us have been encouraged to speak up if we see an issue that needs to be addressed. Nate has said that himself. You're not the only person whose play style I've critiqued, and I've had others critique me. I've been around on this team just as long (actually longer) than Nate if that's the issue you have, but to me it doesn't matter how long a person has been on the team. If you see something that you think needs fixing, you should make it known, whether you've been on the team for 3 years or 3 months.[/QUOTE]
I thought in the case of last night, just that one case specifically, Nate should have been the one to point out those things because he was the only one playing who is on the regular playoff line. That's all.
None of this is personal either man. I like everyone here personally.
I have practice tonight till bout 10ish. After that, if anybody wants to play, just send me a message or a party invite. Shame we couldn't get some NBA Jam 2 v 2. I know stat and I hve it but not sure of anybody else.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']Well, you're certainly the best at making defensive posts...[/QUOTE]
And you're the best at making unnecessary snide comments which contribute nothing to the discussion. It's fine if you disagree with me and I try to listen to your advice, but posts like the one above don't do any good and come across as personal shots. I'm simply reiterating things that were mentioned at least once, if not multiple times, in the chat during the games. I'm defending myself because what I'm saying is true.
Gary, I just got NBA Jam and can possibly play tonight, though I won't be home till late.
Well, since I was part of that debacle last night, I might as well throw my two cents in.
I guess just looking at the entire situation, there's a question that needs answered. Why were us "second-liners" even on the ice yesterday? I understand that it was a chance to give some of us a chance to play in a playoff atmosphere. I, for one, am grateful for that. I know that I actually was feeling sick during that game just knowing the consequences of a loss. It was a freaking good time for a bit. But then came the disorganization. The finger pointing. And the posts which seem to go everywhere except forward. It was a learning experience. We learned and we now move on and look forward to March.
I know when we began in February season, my main goal was to win a banner. I could care less about the achievements. That's why I think I have only six in this game (mostly cause I think HUT is awful). I'm hoping that wasn't the only reason why the new guys wanted in. Just wanted to get that off my chest.
I'm not going to look squarely at one person and say it is their fault. We were a team out there and for a majority of the game we were flopping around with our heads cut off. We didn't make our shots, and they made thiers. Guys decided to make sacrifices by playing different positions and it didn't work out well for either myself or Destro. I botched a lot of passes and I'm sure I made a couple costly turnovers. That's the nature of hockey.
As for the talk of having two separate teams, if there is enough interest, I would have no problem setting up a second teir team for those guys who do play casually. I honestly don't have the time to play as much as I'd like to, and maybe those of us who aren't at the Legend card yet could play at a lower level and maybe be more competitive. Also I think it would be pretty cool to have a little friendly competition between the two clubs.
I'm disappointed in how yesterday went, but Tuesday is a new season. Whether we are the CheapyD All Stars or the Wombat Liberation Army(?), it's gonna be fun.
Hey I also have NBA JAM... my current plan is to watch a movie and when I'm done at 10:30, play some Black OPS... when Matt gets home if you guys wanna do 2 on 2 that would be cool. Don't know how late is late though, I do have to get up tomorrow semi-early and drive to NYC.
[quote name='Matt Young']And you're the best at making unnecessary snide comments which contribute nothing to the discussion. It's fine if you disagree with me and I try to listen to your advice, but posts like the one above don't do any good and come across as personal shots. I'm simply reiterating things that were mentioned at least once, if not multiple times, in the chat during the games. I'm defending myself because what I'm saying is true.[/QUOTE]
My comment before that was meant to contribute. But in typical fashion, all I got back was excuses. So, I thought I'd give a fitting response. For as much as you say you're open to critiques, you've got an answer for everything (how's that broken controller?) But that's fine. You win, Matt. You're a beast at this game. Surely, your numbers reflect that.
I just read through the past two pages of constructive well worded shit and I'd like to assure everyone that you wont get any of that from me. I can't write for shit and I'm a sloppy abortion on the ice. So i don't know what the hell went wrong last night and even if I did I don't possess the literary skills to describe it. But if I had to levy a guess as to why we lost, i'd say it's pretty obvious my skater's skin color was to blame. Beyond that I'd just like to say I agree with the idea that the 5 best should play in the playoff's. That being said, i'll take my place as quadruple understudy and hope that 4 of you get stuck in traffic or loose a thumb before playoffs next month.
Oh and sorry for the shitty joke about the achievement after we lost. It was kind of awkward sitting in a party with 4 other guys after being reamed by some amateur slapdick team and inappropriate bad jokes is just how I deal with awkwardness. And my shitty performance wasn't because i didn't take it seriously it was because i'm still pretty shitty. But I'll work on my positioning, passing, bleach my skin, I'll get better and play in the playoffs when i'm good enough.
Yes, your comment before that did contribute, and I responded. It's information I've shared before. Explanations =/= excuses. I didn't say I didn't have some of those flaws, but just because I have shortcomings doesn't mean they're all due to a lack of skill (some are). As for the controller, I said I think it might be that, but I wasn't sure. The right analog stick on one of my two controllers does not work for sprinting in Call of Duty when I click it in, so there may be something wrong with it. Whatever the reason, it is a fact that my passes do not always go where I aim them. If I'm holding the stick to the right and the pass or clearing shot goes left, how is that my fault?
The controller was only one small part of what I mentioned, although that was all you mentioned in the reply. You're just as aware as anyone on the team of my health problems, from the minor to the major. I don't bring that stuff up most of the time because I don't want to seem like I'm making excuses and because most people who don't go through them don't know enough to understand (Gary does, at least on the depression), but if you're going to attack me, for lack of a not-so-strong sounding word, I will defend myself. I don't know why you're making parts of it personal when you and I have been friends and have been more open about our personal lives with each other than either of us have been with most people on CAG. I know we both can get heated and passionate when arguing a point- you more so than I- but I thought we had a mutual respect to where comments like that wouldn't be an issue. Maybe you're just having a bad day.
Not sure what you meant by the last comment, since I never claimed to put up big numbers. I am not a forward like you, I rarely receive the puck in the offensive zone, and I hardly ever even take shots except to try to keep the puck in the zone or give a teammate a chance at a rebound. I never claimed to be one of the top players on the team, and even admitted that I was not one of the top 2 defensemen- that Gary and Alan were better than me. I also included myself when I said the team played like shit in the playoff game, while you blamed everyone but yourself.
The way you're approaching this whole thing makes no sense. If you can't convey your points without insulting me, I'm not going to be inclined to want to listen. You're a good friend, Nate, but your sarcasm and personal jabs really come across as childish at the moment, especially considering everything I said regarding the things that affect my own play- with the exception of the controller being me guessing what might be wrong with it- are fact, not opinion. If we need to talk things out, so be it. I am the type of person who likes to resolve issues. If I didn't consider you a good friend and respect you as a person, I wouldn't waste my time bothering to try to explain myself, but I think you are worth the time.
So I switched my guy to a center build last, 99 faceoffs and all. Played four games there and I think I am getting the hang of it.
Game 1: Won 12, Lost 21
Game 2: Won 18, lost 17
Game 3: Won 25, lost 9
Game 4: Won 38, lost 38
Also put my guy at 99 checking and strength, and in the last game (a four-OT affair) collected 27 hits, which would be better than the team record had it occurred in regulation. I think this build will hold up even if I move back to the win, but it gives us options, which is nice.
[quote name='Matt Young']If I'm holding the stick to the right and the pass or clearing shot goes left, how is that my fault?[/QUOTE]
This is your problem, Matt. You think this actually could be a possibility. Instead of just having the balls to say "sorry, I made a shitty play", you look for every possible excuse under the sun that could have caused it. Almost everybody on this team has ed up that play once or twice (myself included). It happens. You're the only one who's ever blamed his controller. The only reason we're still talking about this is because you can't man up and take responsibility for your own play. I'm sorry, but I don't respect that. I can barely take you seriously when you talk like that.
[quote name='jza1218']So I switched my guy to a center build last, 99 faceoffs and all. Played four games there and I think I am getting the hang of it.
Game 1: Won 12, Lost 21
Game 2: Won 18, lost 17
Game 3: Won 25, lost 9
Game 4: Won 38, lost 38
Also put my guy at 99 checking and strength, and in the last game (a four-OT affair) collected 27 hits, which would be better than the team record had it occurred in regulation. I think this build will hold up even if I move back to the win, but it gives us options, which is nice.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that worked out pretty well last night. One thing though is that if you are playing left wing, you'll be taking faceoffs once in a blue moon, so you could probably use those faceoff points in stick checking or something (maybe get that to 99 too? I'm not familiar with the 2-way build). On the other hand, you could also rotate out center with Nate if you feel like keeping your current build.
[quote name='moojuice']Yeah, that worked out pretty well last night. One thing though is that if you are playing left wing, you'll be taking faceoffs once in a blue moon, so you could probably use those faceoff points in stick checking or something (maybe get that to 99 too? I'm not familiar with the 2-way build). On the other hand, you could also rotate out center with Nate if you feel like keeping your current build.[/QUOTE]
I agree. It's hard to tell anybody to put points into faceoffs if they're not just playing center because those points would be better used in other areas. The best I can do at center is just try to not take many penalties (which I do my best to limit) so no one else gets stuck taking many faceoffs.
But Rob, if you're wanting to spend some time at center, by all means, I'd be happy to swap out (I could take a wing or drop back to defenseman depending on where we have a need). Really, just having another viable option at center gives us more flexibility. This is where having those multiple builds would really come in handy because it is a bit wasteful having a center build at any other position.
At the same time though, the strength of the Rob, me, Brandon, Alan, Gary line is really hard to question. I don't think a whole lot of flipping around needs to be done there. But flexibility is never a bad thing.
I'd like to play center a little more until the end of the month, so I can continue to get better at faceoffs. Once games starting counting again, I'll switch out.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']This is your problem, Matt. You think this actually could be a possibility. Instead of just having the balls to say "sorry, I made a shitty play", you look for every possible excuse under the sun that could have caused it. Almost everybody on this team has ed up that play once or twice (myself included). It happens. You're the only one who's ever blamed his controller. The only reason we're still talking about this is because you can't man up and take responsibility for your own play. I'm sorry, but I don't respect that. I can barely take you seriously when you talk like that.[/QUOTE]
I've admitted ing up plays in this game and in my many Madden losses. I know where I am aiming. I have no reason to lie about it. You should know better than to say something like that. If I'm holding the stick hard right and the pass goes left or even up the middle, I didn't do something wrong. I take responsibility for my own play all the time. You criticize everyone on the team and rarely include yourself in it... certainly not in the thread. If anyone else thinks I'm making stuff up, you're the first guy on the team to ever say so.
That's why I switched controllers to test out my theory. The real issue in here is Nate focusing on that one aspect and... well, i already explained that. Long story short, it's the new (black) controller that has given me problems like that. The sticks feel "tight", if that makes sense. The old white one I've had for years doesn't give me those issues. If the pass goes somewhere it's not supposed to when I sue that controller, it's because I made a shitty pass, as I tend to do sometimes.
I can't believe I forgot to mention this, but I saw Gary on a Mardi Gras float! Well, not him, obviously... but it looked almost exactly like he does when he has hair. He was also wearing panties on his head and had a rose in his mouth. I came.
[quote name='Matt Young']That's why I switched controllers to test out my theory. The real issue in here is Nate focusing on that one aspect and... well, i already explained that. Long story short, it's the new (black) controller that has given me problems like that. The sticks feel "tight", if that makes sense. The old white one I've had for years doesn't give me those issues. If the pass goes somewhere it's not supposed to when I sue that controller, it's because I made a shitty pass, as I tend to do sometimes.[/QUOTE]
I really had no idea any such thing existed. That's pretty amazing. Thank you. I think I have enough points to get that once I get XBL up and running here. If so, I'll post the results one way or another and then we can move on from this. If my controller isn't messed up, I will readily admit it, but my issue was with you claiming I was making stuff up or making excuses. I honestly believe the controller feels and plays differently and was not responding properly to my input, and the fact that I thought that will still be true even if it turns out it was all just in my head.
I hope you can understand that, but you can feel free to say "I told you so" or make fun of me in the future if it turns out I was wrong. You'd have every right to do that. So is that idea acceptable and then we can just go back to normal? I don't like fighting with you, and it seems obvious from everyone else pretty much not acknowledging our discussion about this stuff that they want it to all end.
[quote name='Matt Young']I really had no idea any such thing existed. That's pretty amazing. Thank you. I think I have enough points to get that once I get XBL up and running here. If so, I'll post the results one way or another and then we can move on from this. If my controller isn't messed up, I will readily admit it, but my issue was with you claiming I was making stuff up or making excuses. I honestly believe the controller feels and plays differently and was not responding properly to my input, and the fact that I thought that will still be true even if it turns out it was all just in my head.
I hope you can understand that, but you can feel free to say "I told you so" or make fun of me in the future if it turns out I was wrong. You'd have every right to do that. So is that idea acceptable and then we can just go back to normal? I don't like fighting with you, and it seems obvious from everyone else pretty much not acknowledging our discussion about this stuff that they want it to all end.[/QUOTE]
I never called you a liar or said you were making anything up. I thought you were in denial about what was actually happening.
Good games last night. We went 6-2 and rattled off 4 straight wins to end the night. Rob shattered the team assists record, getting 7 in one game, but for whatever reason, it didn't update in the club records (possibly because these "after playoffs" games don't count?) He was pretty much a beast on faceoffs until the last game or two (guessing he was getting tired...same thing happens to me) as well.
Yeah I think it was just a tired thing. But it's good to know that I can do it, so that if/when we split it up on hockey nights there is someone else who can play center, though I'm sure you'll destroy me Nate.
).
ed up that play once or twice (myself included). It happens. You're the only one who's ever blamed his controller. The only reason we're still talking about this is because you can't man up and take responsibility for your own play. I'm sorry, but I don't respect that. I can barely take you seriously when you talk like that.