Pro Wrestling discussion topic--WWE, AEW, ROH, Impact, New Japan, indies

I'm actually pleasantly surprised by RAW so far. This is the best one in a long, long time.

But as always, more New Day please. And more Tommy Dreamer choking people with baseball bats while cameras quickly cut away.

 
Wonder if the Vince stuff is a one off thing or if he'll stick and for a while. It'd be nice if we could get jokes about balls and grapfruits every Raw from now until Wrestlemania.
 
Purple Flames said:
WWE finally did it. They finally 1) Put the title on Roman and 2) got the crowd behind him in the process.
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The amazing thing, this was the same crowd (even in the same arena) that booed the hell out of him at the beginning of the year at the Rumble and are now solidly behind him.

 
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I was too busy to go to Raw last night, but TheRock is right: not only is this *Philly* cheering on Roman, it's the same Philly crowd that was effectively responsible for starting the course of events leading to him not winning the title throughout most of 2015.

(I haven't watched Raw yet, but it's obviously been spoiled for me now. If y'all are saying the crowd was into it, I believe you.)

That said, the puzzling thing is this: if 2015 was mostly Roman Reigns doing smug, stupid, stupid (tater tot, farrrrt, derp) kinds of promos, and he went into "wrecking crew" mode last night such that continued into Raw - well, was this all planned? I.e., did WWE book him to be awful so that, when he finally "snapped," the crowd would be white hot (some kind of "YES THIS IS THE GUY WE WANTED ALL ALONG!" reaction)?

I'm not saying WWE is super genius and planned it out perfectly during 2015, but they have a good sense on how to pull the trigger on someone. You've got to give them the momentum so that, when the trigger is pulled, the gunpowder catches. See also: New Day are still heels.

 
mykevermin said:
I was too busy to go to Raw last night, but TheRock is right: not only is this *Philly* cheering on Roman, it's the same Philly crowd that was effectively responsible for starting the course of events leading to him not winning the title throughout most of 2015.

(I haven't watched Raw yet, but it's obviously been spoiled for me now. If y'all are saying the crowd was into it, I believe you.)

That said, the puzzling thing is this: if 2015 was mostly Roman Reigns doing smug, stupid, stupid (tater tot, farrrrt, derp) kinds of promos, and he went into "wrecking crew" mode last night such that continued into Raw - well, was this all planned? I.e., did WWE book him to be awful so that, when he finally "snapped," the crowd would be white hot (some kind of "YES THIS IS THE GUY WE WANTED ALL ALONG!" reaction)?

I'm not saying WWE is super genius and planned it out perfectly during 2015, but they have a good sense on how to pull the trigger on someone. You've got to give them the momentum so that, when the trigger is pulled, the gunpowder catches. See also: New Day are still heels.
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I still stand by the Rumble being a case of the crowd booing the terrible booking decision and not Roman himself. Reigns has put on some excellent matches this year, last night being one of them. I hope they give him a new look and music though, The Shield stuff has more than ran it's course now.

Also props to the Chikara match. Still haven't had a chance to watch all of Top Banana, but have heard nothing but great things. I've been thinking about subscribing to Chikaratopia as well, but I don't have a Roku which is the only streaming device it's currently on to my knowledge. I can't imagine pirating Chikara though, I know it would really upset Jervis Cottonbelly and who wants that wonderful gentleman to be upset?

 
I appreciate that sentiment. Top Banana was an incredible show to see live, and having been to dozens of indy wrestling shows in my life (this being my first Chikara event), the posi vibe in the arena was such a joyous change of pace. No "you fucked up" chants, no smart marks shouting stupid insider garbage, and the crowd was enrapt with the outcome of the final match (in a positive way). It is SUCH a delightful change of pace for the feeling of a wrestling show I can't help but say if Chikara comes to your town you MUST go.

(Full context, I just don't have the energy in me to be a hateful spiteful fan anymore - there's a ton of stuff in wrestling I don't like, and it's mostly in line with what many of y'all think - but I'm over the overt aggression, fury, and "can't do anything right" attitude many wrestling fans bring to tv and arenas. It weirds me out - if you hate something that much that occupies your leisure time and discretionary income, please, for your own sake, find something else to support.) So the Chikara environment was super refreshing and in line with who I am in 2015.

Sadly I have a ton of things planned this weekend so I can't attend either ROH show (although I might try to go to Final Battle if the implication is that AJ Styles may not have a ton of matches left in him) - but with Top Banana, Raw last Monday with Reigns "first" (legit) Championship, and Final Battle this weekend, what a rad wrestling city to live in.

That said, Bill Apter is doing some performance thing Saturday at an artspace about two miles from my house, so I may go to that.

Thinking about your point w/r/t Reigns, I can see where you're coming from (rejecting the booking). In January, people wanted Daniel Bryan. By December, we're all pretty resigned to accepting that maybe Bryan won't ever return to full time action in WWE. Ugh, I hated to type that last sentence.

 
Anyone think that wwe is keeping Bryan shelved so that people will move on and allow reigns to rise? He had said doctors have given him the ok but not the wwe.
 
So I'm finally got around to checking out the Monday Night Wars DVD collection they put out a few months ago. So far I like it, although it's very WWE-centric, which I can't really complain too much about since there wasn't much going on on the WCW side other than the NWO (which they touch on, in fact). They go pretty in-depth over all the guys and events that played a significant part (NWO, Foley, DX, Stone Cold, etc.). From this special, it was clear as day that, aside from Goldberg, WCW had no idea how to build their own stars and was completely reliant on former WWE guys to get their ratings.

 
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Liquid Metal said:
Anyone think that wwe is keeping Bryan shelved so that people will move on and allow reigns to rise? He had said doctors have given him the ok but not the wwe.
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That certainly may be part of it, but I do think they have legitimate concerns regarding his concussions and the WWE doctor said no. Plus a big move of his for years was a flying head butt.
 
Two things Roman could use to be hugely successful:

1. A manager that talks for him. A Paul Heyman to his Brock Lesner.  Seriously. He's not just going to get better at talking and he's proven that practice isn't helping him. Let someone do it for him.

2. Stop with the coming to the ring from the crowd nonsense. Jesus Christ is it stupid.

 
Liquid Metal said:
Anyone think that wwe is keeping Bryan shelved so that people will move on and allow reigns to rise? He had said doctors have given him the ok but not the wwe.
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I didn't think of that before, but it does seem very possible. Maybe they'll eventually say yes to having him come back soon, but I have a feeling he's officially done wrestling in the WWE.

 
Unless they're paying Bryan heavily to sit on the sidelines, I doubt they're keeping him away from the ring just so they can let one guy take the spotlight. If he's sitting there doing nothing and they're not paying him while he's out, I'm sure he'd have some grounds for a lawsuit it he ever found out WWE is just telling doctors to lie about him being ok to wrestle so that they could push Roman.

 
Liquid Metal said:
Anyone think that wwe is keeping Bryan shelved so that people will move on and allow reigns to rise? He had said doctors have given him the ok but not the wwe.
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No way, they are already short on main event talent with all of talent currently out with injuries. Daniel Bryan would have been on TV a month ago if he was cleared by the WWE's doctor. I am starting to think we won't see Daniel Bryan return to the WWE in a wrestling capacity ever, but I do think we will see The American Dragon return to the indies and ROH and if that is what happens, I am 100% alright with that. I'd love see Danielson vs. Zack Sabre Jr. and so many other awesome matches he could have on the indies.

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A1VpPXy4ws

Great 5-minute speech. Some of y'all office types might recognize Quack using the Ignite presentation format to its fullest extent.

 
mykevermin said:
Great 5-minute speech. Some of y'all office types might recognize Quack using the Ignite presentation format to its fullest extent.
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Saw this yesterday. Really glad Quack was able to do this and give a great explanation for people as to why wrestling fans are so passionate and why Quack does what he does with Chikara.

 
Sigma said:
No way, they are already short on main event talent with all of talent currently out with injuries. Daniel Bryan would have been on TV a month ago if he was cleared by the WWE's doctor. I am starting to think we won't see Daniel Bryan return to the WWE in a wrestling capacity ever, but I do think we will see The American Dragon return to the indies and ROH and if that is what happens, I am 100% alright with that. I'd love see Danielson vs. Zack Sabre Jr. and so many other awesome matches he could have on the indies.
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However, they know that the fans will not allow Reigns to happen with the chance of Bryan coming back. What happened recently? Interviews come out saying wwe doctors will refuse to allow it while Bryans doctors are saying he's good to go. A week later, Reigns is champ. They want Reigns to get over no matter what. If this is the reason Bryan is being kept off around wrestlemania season, it would not surprise me. I also would not be ok with him going to roh. Yes, there is great match potential, but he's taking a step back in my opinion. He's earned his spot in wwe. He shouldn't have it taken away from him just to get Reigns over which is what I believe is going on here.

They also put the belt on Shemus. Who won't get cheered taking the belt off that mistake?

 
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That long post match celebration on NXT Takeover I was expecting someone to make a run in and challenge for the belt, apparently that wasn't the case. Eitherway, that was a damn fine event. I Enjoyed Bayley having to change her moveset in order to combat Nia Jax since she can't exactly do Bayley to Belly on her.

 
mykevermin said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A1VpPXy4ws

Great 5-minute speech. Some of y'all office types might recognize Quack using the Ignite presentation format to its fullest extent.
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This Chikara guy is to the world of wrestling what a musician like Atmosphere is to rap or a developer like Behmoth/Klei is to the gaming world. He is a breath of fresh air and someone making something they believe in, art for arts sake. They are invested in making their vision of the best product possible not the most money possible.

Problem is that the WWE just does not see things the way this guy sees things. He gave a great speech showing how wrestling at its best is human emotion. Its our dreams, passion, hopes, fears, everything that makes us human stirred together and then made a form of performance art. Do any of us actually believe from creative to Vince and HHH that right now this discussion is going on week to week? Its not just the WWE, we are living in a very corporate and profit/data driven times. Products from wrestling to video games and music are largely made by a shrinking number of companies who make their decisions on "whats best for business' instead of how do we make the best piece of art/product possible. Entertainment used to be made because someone had a vision and a dream not because data says its a good time to make a super hero movie with a female lead or because the Giant Samoan guy looks good on a poster.

I just do not believe Vince, HHH or creative are sitting around debating the best ways to play fans like a harp or that they have a vision anymore. The product is not being driven by things like psychology and monitoring cultural norms to tune in to our emotions. The product is not being driven by dreams, passions or someones vision. The product is being decided by body size, how you look on a poster, who you know and other shallow measures that might provide short term profits but are not a piece of art. Its an illness in society right now, as I said I cant think of one medium where there is not a monopoly or close to it and each of these monopolies aint making their decisions on anything but what brings in those short term dolla dolla bills Y'all.

Like I said, respect the hell out of the speech. He did not just defend being a wrestling fan but also unintentionally art itself. Wrestling desperately needs more people who are passionate about the ART of the sport not just the physical side or accomplishing the dream of being in the WWE.

 
Liquid Metal said:
However, they know that the fans will not allow Reigns to happen with the chance of Bryan coming back. What happened recently? Interviews come out saying wwe doctors will refuse to allow it while Bryans doctors are saying he's good to go. A week later, Reigns is champ. They want Reigns to get over no matter what. If this is the reason Bryan is being kept off around wrestlemania season, it would not surprise me. I also would not be ok with him going to roh. Yes, there is great match potential, but he's taking a step back in my opinion. He's earned his spot in wwe. He shouldn't have it taken away from him just to get Reigns over which is what I believe is going on here.

They also put the belt on Shemus. Who won't get cheered taking the belt off that mistake?
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I disagree, the WWE is hesitant to bring Bryan back for a number of reasons. They have put him in high profile positions at both Wrestlemania 30 and 31, Bryan got hurt both times and was out with a serious neck injury both times. I love Bryan as much as the next smark, but WWE is right to be weary of bringing him back because they will have to put him into a top program and with all the recent injuries, they couldn't afford to bring Bryan back and have him right back on the sidelines with another injury. I think saying that the reason Bryan is being kept off TV to get Roman over is way off the mark. Roman isn't nearly as bad as a lot of people like to think he is and Sheamus is far from terrible, I actually enjoyed him with the belt. Reigns biggest weakness is his mic skills and that he's "The companies guy" stigma that the IWC has clung onto in nearly every post, article, podcast, etc. Reigns ring work has vastly improved since he debuted and you've gotta give the guy respect for that.

 
To be fair to the WWE with the whole Bryan situation, they could also just be worried about how fans will react if he is injured. The guy is sooooooo over that I can not fathom how fans of his would react if he came back just to be injured. I can see many many many people saying they should have protected the guy, they should have listened to the Drs saying not to let him wrestle etc etc.

I would not doubt for a second that they may have held him back to help Reigns rise. But I also would not doubt for a second that they are just terrified of being held accountable for his being injured again. Personally I have always thought Bryan was hugely hugely overrated(His mic work is terrible!!!!) and while I hope for his sake he can wrestle again some day(it is clearly his passion)I think WWE will be better without him. Not just because I thought he was overated, but also just because at this point he brings so much controversy and baggage with him. I am hoping we get away from this reality era and Bryan makes it very hard to do that.

 
Do you guys think Bryan has built the popularity to help him carry a smaller promotion? The guys about as over as you can get but I am still doubtful he alone could put one of the smaller promotions on the map. I wish I could peer into an alternative dimension and see how things went if Punk and Bryan left at the same time for the same promotion. I really thought for a minute we might see that happen and the two of them together with another minor player like Cesaro or Ziggler could have possibly made a real difference for a company like RoH or TNA.

 
MSI Magus said:
Do you guys think Bryan has built the popularity to help him carry a smaller promotion? The guys about as over as you can get but I am still doubtful he alone could put one of the smaller promotions on the map. I wish I could peer into an alternative dimension and see how things went if Punk and Bryan left at the same time for the same promotion. I really thought for a minute we might see that happen and the two of them together with another minor player like Cesaro or Ziggler could have possibly made a real difference for a company like RoH or TNA.
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I honestly don't think any wrestler out there currently could carry a smaller promotion like ROH or TNA to a level of competition with the WWE, with the exception of John Cena. TNA has proven this to be true with major WWE names like Hardy and Angle coming over and doing well in TNA, but they definitely weren't bringing many viewers to Impact every week. At this point it would take a lot of money and talent for any wrestling organization to compete with WWE. With that said Daniel Bryan would be a great asset to any company he decides to work for and would definitely put asses in seats, but I just don't see him lighting the world on fire anywhere at this point.

 
Precisely my thought. At this point, I don't think a heel turn by Jesus Christ himself could get TNA back into even quasi prominence as a promotion.

 
TNA I agree is dead. I dont see a way to turn that company around. I think that towards the end of the Aces and Eights story bit you could see the company starting to die. After AJ left it just was not the same.

RoH I am not sure I agree on. I still think if a few top guys like Bryan jumped to RoH and at the same time that company got a cash infusion, I could see them having a shot. Do not get me wrong I still think there would be like a 30% chance they ever reached anywhere near a WCW level competitor. Those are low odds but not so low I would not be excited to see those cards line up.

 
– Tyler Reks did a Reddit AMA this week promoting Body Spartan and talked about the heat between John Cena and Alex Riley. Check out the highlights:
 
On heat between Cena and Riley: “There is truth that there was some sort of unknown, unreasonable heat between Riley and Cena. To the point where everyone on the roster thought that Cena was treating him in a way that was totally uncalled for. No one approached Cena about it, but the entire locker room was on Riley’s side, a lot of condolences, and this is ‘ridiculous, bro,’ and it was every freakin’ day. Cena thought Riley did something wrong every single day.”
 
On Cena trying to get Riley fired: “Like, it’s completely against the wrestler code to ever go through another wrestler’s bag. One day, Riley walked into an empty locker room and Cena was just going through his bag. He found some pre-workout vitamins and b—hed him out for taking supplements, asking if he ‘thinks this is ok.’ Like, he was looking for a reason to get him fired.”
 
On other examples of Cena targeting Riley: “We had the match when Linda was running for Congress for the Stand Up For WWE charity shows, and it was a tag match, I think it was a six man tag match if I remember right. And it was me, Hawkins, and Ziggler vs. Riley, and two other baby faces. Cena had made it clear that he wanted Riley to act a certain way and do certain things. And we structured the entire match to his wishes and it went flawlessly as far as we were concerned. The second we walked backstage he came up to me and said ‘hey where’s numbnuts?’ And he sees the look on my face and tells me to go get Riley. So all six of us came back and he b—hed out Riley in front of the backstage roster — about how he always tells him to do one thing and he does another, and Cena was ‘washing his hands of helping him.’ Even Ziggler was like, ‘What the hell, man?'”
 
Is Alex Riley still on the roster? Last I saw of him he was teetering around NXT, and other than that I recall him clearly voicing some frustration via Twitter. But little else.

It's fascinating to read stuff like this. It's sadly so easily dismissable after the fact as "bitter ex employee," but clearly some of this stuff is true some of the time. We'll never know, though.

 
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Ragin' Riley is injured right now last I checked and I think is out 10 months or a year.

 
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Tyler Breeze update: Now getting pinned by Titus O'Neil in 2 minutes on Smackdown and entering into a comedy feud with Goldust. :whistle2:/

I think a big reason it disappoints me is the fact that WWE really could benefit from building up some solid new stars to fill the gaps left by the rash of injuries in recent times.
 
Matt Young said:
Tyler Breeze update: Now getting pinned by Titus O'Neil in 2 minutes on Smackdown and entering into a comedy feud with Goldust. :whistle2:/

I think a big reason it disappoints me is the fact that WWE really could benefit from building up some solid new stars to fill the gaps left by the rash of injuries in recent times.
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Cripes. When I read interviews with NXT folks who all seem to want to stay in NXT because it's so white hot right now as a brand, this is the other side of the coin. Have a killer match with adequate time and a crowd that's into it, or lose to Goldust in two minutes while nobody notices.

The shortsightedness of it is pretty unfortunate. I mean, yeah, someone has to lose, but Breeze is DOA based on his booking. I'm with you now.

 
Was really looking forward to a Sheamus-Lesnar feud with the title. Lesnar winning the Rumble works for me too.

I'm also down for something with Lesnar and a returning Rollins in a "we never got pinned" series for the belt.

 
MSI Magus said:
TNA I agree is dead. I dont see a way to turn that company around. I think that towards the end of the Aces and Eights story bit you could see the company starting to die. After AJ left it just was not the same.

RoH I am not sure I agree on. I still think if a few top guys like Bryan jumped to RoH and at the same time that company got a cash infusion, I could see them having a shot. Do not get me wrong I still think there would be like a 30% chance they ever reached anywhere near a WCW elevel competitor. Those are low odds but not so low I would not be excited to see those cards line up.
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I don't think either TNA or ROH are dead companies. TNA has actually now been around longer than WCW as a company, same goes for ROH. I think TNA will see a nice resurgence in 2016 with the new TV deal and generally moving towards a younger roster of lesser known talents with Angle on his way out they don't have many older guys on the roster anymore and rumor has it Mike Bennett and Maria are heading to TNA next month is definitely a great signing to the roster.

On a side note, did anyone catch 2CW's final show last night? They had a free live stream on Ustream and I caught most of the second half. I really enjoyed the show and it was a great way for 2CW to go out. Dalton Castle vs. Sami Callihan for the 2CW Title was excellent, Eddie Edwards vs. Johnny Gargano was another excellent singles bout. Young Bucks and Kenny Omega vs. AR Fox, Colin Delaney, and Cheech was another solid match for the 2CW Tag Titles. Good show all around!

 
mykevermin said:
Man, you should have posted that link! I would have watched the heck out of that (but I've never heard of 2CW. Chicago-based?).
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2CW was based out of New York and my apologies for not posting a link, I'll try and find one for you though. I am pretty sure the shows will get uploaded to YouTube or another service. They did 2 Sets over the weekend and the last two were Sunday, really great little indie promotion that a lot of big names came out of. Kevin Steen was a huge deal in 2CW for years (he actually appeared last night on a pre-tape segment putting over the company and his time there). Here are some clips and photos via WrestleZone to tide you over. I hope I can find a link to the show, there was a great bit during the Eddie Edwards and Johnny Gargano match were the crowd started a Shoeplex City chant after everyone threw shoes into the ring.

 
Roman is actually watchable when he's not talking about testicles. I think that was the first time on Raw where I liked him on the mic. That opening segment along with New Day and the divas were the best parts of Raw.

Wow, the rest of that show was a trainwreck  The No Show Awards was more like it.

And it's nice to see they remembered Wade was an employee.

 
Cage017 said:
And it's nice to see they remembered Wade was an employee.
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Until the next day on the live Smackdown when only Sheamus was shown behind the duo of Rusev & Del Rio in the graphic advertising the latter two men's match against The Usos. Barrett did accompany the other 3 for that match.
 
That's really unfortunate about Barrett. I had my first ring pain, bruising a rib pretty badly after bumping on Sunday. Should be okay for my next class, but good god I couldn't have imagined putting together a 5-9 minute match the next night or the night after.

More than anything else, I'm developing a sense of respect for all of these dudes the more I learn.

 
As someone who doesn't watch much EU wrestling or TNA, can someone explain the appeal of Grado to me? I've not seen him wrestle or talk at all, but there are so many people who speak incredibly highly of him.

 
Grado's appeal seems to be his weird charisma and amazing (outside of TNA, anyway) ring entrance.

When I briefly did some wrestling training, I once landed on my side with my arm underneath me. My elbow drove right into my rib and every single breath hurt for 2 weeks or so. I hope you heal quickly!
 
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