RPG Thread IX is a steaming pile of pointless monologue. Just Youtube the ending!

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Final Fantasy VIII was certainly a much better looking and overall more polished game than VII, but man were some of those story conceits ridiculous.
 
Yeah the space portion of the game is where everything went bananas. I can't forget that women turning around and genuinely asking me, "Oh? You didn't learn in school that massive waves of monsters invade from the moon every year?"

No ma'am, no I did not.

And then at the same time, Squall comes out if his shell and they handle it horribly.

[quote name='blueshinra']I don't remember if this linked was ever shared in an RPG Thread, but here's one crazy theory about what's really going on in FFVIII's story (which, I agree, wasn't very good) - http://squallsdead.com/[/QUOTE]

wow that sounds completely plausible, actually.
 
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I always liked the idea that
Ultimecia is Rinoa's future self
. There's barely a shred of evidence in the game to support it, but I felt like it was something the writers should have thought of.
 
Looking at the game like a crazy acid trip after he gets stabbed in the first disc would make the game much more impressive in its entirety (and very, very sad :cry:).

I wonder if Square would ever comment on their old works...
 
[quote name='blueshinra']I don't remember if this linked was ever shared in an RPG Thread, but here's one crazy theory about what's really going on in FFVIII's story (which, I agree, wasn't very good) - http://squallsdead.com/[/QUOTE]

I definitely plan to read that whole thing tomorrow.
 
Whoops, just noticed a typo I made in my last comment. I meant "link", obviously.

[quote name='panzerfaust']wow that sounds completely plausible, actually.[/QUOTE]
Yup. Some parts of it aren't as convincing to me as others (like the bit about the Moombas. FFVIII is hardly the first Final Fantasy game to introduce goofy-looking creatures a good ways in), but in general, it's an interesting theory.
 
[quote name='blueshinra']I don't remember if this linked was ever shared in an RPG Thread, but here's one crazy theory about what's really going on in FFVIII's story (which, I agree, wasn't very good) - http://squallsdead.com/[/QUOTE]

I remember reading that theory awhile ago.While it is a cute little theory on the story,it doesn't fix the terrible characters or the poorly done romance between Squall and Rinoa.
 
I think the wait leading up to VII and the jump in quality really made the game for me. I was like "how did we get from III to VII?" It's a great game and holds up pretty well. I have grown to appreciate VII-IX much more after playing X, XII and XIII though (XI is ok in my book).
 
[quote name='themaster20000']I remember reading that theory awhile ago.While it is a cute little theory on the story,it doesn't fix the terrible characters or the poorly done romance between Squall and Rinoa.[/QUOTE]

It kind of does =p

[quote name='willardhaven']I think the wait leading up to VII and the jump in quality really made the game for me. I was like "how did we get from III to VII?" It's a great game and holds up pretty well. I have grown to appreciate VII-IX much more after playing X, XII and XIII though (XI is ok in my book).[/QUOTE]

I thought story telling and mechanics all matured immensely with the post-psx era FFs

Unless that VIII theory is true, because that's too cool lol
 
I've seen bits of the VIII theory but that was a great read. Now I want to replay VIII assuming that to be true and see if it makes a difference (like watching 6th sense knowing the truth). Oh who am I kidding, it's just an excuse for me to replay VIII :D

I'm so close to finishing Vesperia I can taste it. Just got
Gnome
and if I skip all the side quests left can probably finish within a couple hours. Very tempted to do so, as I'm kind of forcing myself to play this game. I don't know why, but unlike the other Tales games (including Legendia) this one just never grabbed me. I find the characters largely uninteresting and the story didn't grip me like Symphonia/Abyss did. First I rate VIII as my favorite FF, now I rate Vesperia as my least favorite Tales? I'm just asking for it, eh? :lol:
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']It kind of does =p



I thought story telling and mechanics all matured immensely with the post-psx era FFs

Unless that VIII theory is true, because that's too cool lol[/QUOTE]

If you mean more self-indulgent and less substantive sure... I think the later games lack originality and that certain spark, while they are more refined in their execution. Also, I think the gameplay took a turn for the boring.

I'll take "this guy are sick" over the gibberish and indirect half-sentences of XIII any day.
 
That Squall theory is interesting. Maybe I'll play through it a third time, since I already have it on my PSP. I had already started a third playthrough two years back, and I'm near the end of disc one anyways (at the parade).
 
[quote name='blueshinra']I don't remember if this linked was ever shared in an RPG Thread, but here's one crazy theory about what's really going on in FFVIII's story (which, I agree, wasn't very good) - http://squallsdead.com/[/QUOTE]


Reminds me of the Rugrats theory where all the kids are part of Angelica's imagination.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']If you mean more self-indulgent and less substantive sure... I think the later games lack originality and that certain spark, while they are more refined in their execution. Also, I think the gameplay took a turn for the boring.

I'll take "this guy are sick" over the gibberish and indirect half-sentences of XIII any day.[/QUOTE]

That's mostly the case with the new ones.Square seems to focus on the graphics first and foremost with the writing and gameplay being in the background.I think the series needs to stop with this fusion of futuristic technology and fantasy and just go with fantasy just like the older games.It would also be nice of they got rid of Nomura on character Designs and get Amano doing them again.
 
[quote name='themaster20000']I think the series needs to stop with this fusion of futuristic technology and fantasy and just go with fantasy just like the older games.[/QUOTE]

Fusing futuristic elements with traditional fantasy isn't the problem. Even the classic Final Fantasy games did that:

0.jpg
 
[quote name='bvharris']Fusing futuristic elements with traditional fantasy isn't the problem. Even the classic Final Fantasy games did that:
[/QUOTE]

It was very limited though.Around FFVII is when they really started to go pretty heavy with it.
 
[quote name='themaster20000']It was very limited though.Around FFVII is when they really started to go pretty heavy with it.[/QUOTE]

I thought FF6 was pretty heavy in it too...
 
[quote name='elessar123']I thought FF6 was pretty heavy in it too...[/QUOTE]

That was more steampunk and was evened out pretty good with the fantasy elements.
 
[quote name='themaster20000']That was more steampunk and was evened out pretty good with the fantasy elements.[/QUOTE]

But most of them were really steampunk...
 
That's kind of an odd element to criticize. You can think they are the worst games ever, but in terms of imaginative worlds and art direction I say FF really leads the pack.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']That's kind of an odd element to criticize. You can think they are the worst games ever, but in terms of imaginative worlds and art direction I say FF really leads the pack.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I'm fine with the mix of futuristic elements in a fantasy setting. I really don't see how that's the problem.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']I'll take "this guy are sick" over the gibberish and indirect half-sentences of XIII any day.[/QUOTE]
Well, unless you're playing FFVII PC, where Aeris says, "This guy is sick." ;)

[quote name='ihadFG']Yeah, I'm fine with the mix of futuristic elements in a fantasy setting. I really don't see how that's the problem.[/QUOTE]
Same here. It's pretty nifty when done well.
 
If done well I don't have that much of a problem with it even though I prefer it limited,now FFXIII really went overboard with it though.The writing and characters have been my biggest problem with the series at this point,which has been going downhill since X.
 
I'm only speculating, but I think the main reason why SE games' stories have regressed so horribly is because of how Nomura writes his stories and scenarios since taking over. I remember reading that the sequels in the Kingdom Hearts series were written to explain the hidden FMVs in their predecessors (specifically the World that Never Was in KH2 and the Keyblade War in BBS) .

Call me old fashioned, but I think making a whole bunch of cool FMVs first and then writing around them is a horrible way to create... well.. ANYTHING. Even if Sakaguchi's style could sometimes be boring, at least his stuff always had something bearing a resemblance to a beginning, middle, and end.

The last decent story I've seen from the Final Fantasy people was The World Ends With You which obviously could sidestep these issues.
 
I think X is a pretty significant downturn for the series. The battle system became a paint-by-numbers affair, the world map disappeared and exploration really had no place in the game.

X is decent game, but XII barely resembles a Final Fantasy game plus it had the worst dialogue until XIII took that crown. The stories remain somewhat interesting, but they are being told in such a way that I don't care to learn what they're all about. I played a few hours into XIII and I don't think I heard one complete sentence.

People argue about VII and VIII or IV and VI or any other of the original 9 games. The point is they can do this because (almost) all of those games are excellent. The new games feel like all sizzle and no steak. All art assets, lovely music and great environments with boring character designs (the princess from XII and Lightning look almost identical), boring gameplay with ridiculous new gimmicks and crappy dialogue which ruins whatever brilliant "story" Square is pitching.

Oh and there's a cut scene every 5 minutes... this is a symptom of a much larger problem in gaming. I can't even play Call of Duty single player because of this.
 
X's battle system was the best in the series. Being able to switch party members on the fly is a great mechanic.

RPG's never made sense to me in that you have a huge party walking through the woods and you have to pick a set number of characters and stick with them regardless of the enemy. In FFX, I was stealing with Rikku, casting black magic with Lulu, and then switching up for the muscle of Auron and Tidus. Yuna was always ready to jump in and heal the squad.

I'd love to see a PS3 version with trophies. Even if I don't get it, I'll still go back and play it again someday.
 
i agree about RPGs in general. If I'm traveling the world with 8 people and we're attacked by a giant monster, why are only 3 people fighting? Both X addressed this with the switching, but also VI by causing them to almost always be split up or having two groups infiltrating the enemy's castle.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']I think X is a pretty significant downturn for the series. The battle system became a paint-by-numbers affair, the world map disappeared and exploration really had no place in the game. [/QUOTE]

FFX was the peak of the traditional system that you love. I couldn't say much changed aside from an enormously huge improvement in pacing, and much more engaging party management thanks to in-battle switches and something the game is revered for -- the sphere grid.

How you can say a game like FFIX is excellent and then say the combat took a downturn in X has my mind blown, personally.

As for exploration, I guess that's more personal preference. Mass Effect 2 became more linear and it was a huge step up from its predecessor. I guess it all depends on what you're looking for.

X is decent game, but XII barely resembles a Final Fantasy game plus it had the worst dialogue until XIII took that crown. The stories remain somewhat interesting, but they are being told in such a way that I don't care to learn what they're all about. I played a few hours into XIII and I don't think I heard one complete sentence.
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XII's dialogue is great, arguably the best in the series IMO. The old english will come on strong for some, so I understand your gripes -- but given the setting (Ivalice), it's hard not to appreciate the effort put into the dialogue.

And yes, XII played very little like an FF game. Once again understandable to dislike it if you were expecting a certain experience, but at the same time a poor reason to not give it credit for a wonderful battle system. It ran like butter and watching good gambits in action was incredibly rewarding. Plus, best side-hunts in any FF game, period.

You keep talking about incomplete sentences in XIII which is the first time I have ever heard that complaint. Odd thing to be annoyed by. Talk about Hope, or Snow. Something that I can understand!

People argue about VII and VIII or IV and VI or any other of the original 9 games. The point is they can do this because (almost) all of those games are excellent. The new games feel like all sizzle and no steak. All art assets, lovely music and great environments with boring character designs (the princess from XII and Lightning look almost identical), boring gameplay with ridiculous new gimmicks and crappy dialogue which ruins whatever brilliant "story" Square is pitching.

Oh and there's a cut scene every 5 minutes... this is a symptom of a much larger problem in gaming. I can't even play Call of Duty single player because of this.
Click to expand...
Sorry you aren't enjoying the newer games as much as the older ones. I'm a big fan of the PSX games but they certainly have aged, and I love how Square continues to do crazy, controversial things to their games when of all developers, they could probably just release the same thing every year and profit.

Hopefully Versus will change your mind (I hear there is a world map, airships etc...).
 
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There's nothing wrong with trying out new things to keep a series fresh as long as its for the better.Take something like the Suikoden series for example,that series killed itself off with that fourth game which took a change for the worse.The FF series has just been trying out all these new things that haven't really worked out that well.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']They are clearly working out well for somebody

And Square is a business.[/QUOTE]

You gotta remember that most fans of the series will buy ANY Final Fantasy game regardless of quality just because it has the name on it.Fans bash FFXIII as one of the worst yet it's the best selling one of the series so far.
 
Nice job, panzer.

I like that every FF after IX has been completely different. I like when developers take bold chances. X was the pinnacle of the turn-based battle system. XI was the decent attempt at Everquest and Warcraft. XII was the not so subtle successor to Vagrant Story except they added a decent story. I like how they told a story without amnesia or dream sequences. XIII might not have been the best FF but it was a spectacle that couldn't be accomplished by consoles in the past. It looked and felt like a next-gen RPG.
 
[quote name='themaster20000']You gotta remember that most fans of the series will buy ANY Final Fantasy game regardless of quality just because it has the name on it.Fans bash FFXIII as one of the worst yet it's the best selling one of the series so far.[/QUOTE]

FFVII is the best selling, followed by FFX. XIII and XII sold very well, but no where near 10 million -- let's not get ridiculous.

Anyways, you're painting FF fans with a very wide brush here. No one can prove that people drop $60 the moment they see a brand title. Brand loyalty does indeed exist, but this consists of buying products that continue to deliver for a consumer, time after time. No one buys FF and pretends they enjoy it every time, that's a serious mental problem. That's merely a convenient argument for people who are convinced FF has been riding on nothing but brainwashed fans, who have somehow been unable to realize they have been playing trash for the past 10 years. A strong track record certainly helps advertise, pointing people in the direction of one game as opposed to its competitors, but not to the level of "MUST HAVE FF. MUST HAVE FF. RAWWWWRR"

Another generalization you are making is that fans bash the new games more than the old. Go on to a forum and this is certainly true. But how much of the demographic is made up of forum posters? Gaming boards were hardly as mainstream pre PS2-era as they are now, and the type of people on gaming boards discussing game design are probably the hardest of the hardcore (aka, 1% compared to the 99% of casual FF fans). And what's more, these people are probably in their 20s or older, and more suscpetible to being jaded towards newer games, especially the more contemporary and pop-culture like nature of the new FFs (just saying).

When you think of the type of gamer that posts on boards, people who grew up with FFVI and on, and then you see a game like XII get released -- regardless of how good XII is or isn't, do you not see why that in general, forum opinions of FF games are largely pessimistic? We're talking about a franchise that defined a lot of childhoods, and people will always bring those memories back when looking at the new ones. There are a lot of young kids with XIII in their house, and in 10 years we'll be hearing that the golden age ended with that, and how FF17 sucks because there aren't chocobos anymore.


Sales certainly aren't correlated with quality, but typically, 40+ hour RPGs don't sell like FF games do. They sell, IMO, because whether it's VII, IX, XII, or XIII -- they are sold to people looking for high production values, colorful characters, compelling narratives (not necessarily deep or engrossing), and casual friendly combat. With what each game loses or adds, old fans are lost, and new fans are made. When Square truly makes a bad main installment of FF, we'll know, and they'll know. It won't just be a little forum argument.

Like XIV, that game is what, the biggest failure of an MMO in history? That's probably why they had a bad year.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']
Like XIV, that game is what, the biggest failure of an MMO in history? That's probably why they had a bad year.[/QUOTE]

Don't forget to add in the fact that FF14 is an MMO that is not running on any monthly fees either. It is just a money drain at this point.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']Because Square is extraordinarily Japanese[/QUOTE]

I miss the days when titles were meant to descried the game. I'm sure if Vagrant Story was created today they'd slap on the FF title for the hell of it and call it FF: Fjordsen Bjordsen
 
[quote name='Rodimus']I miss the days when titles were meant to descried the game. I'm sure if Vagrant Story was created today they'd slap on the FF title for the hell of it and call it FF: Fjordsen Bjordsen[/QUOTE]

They did put a FF title on it. It's called Final Fantasy XII.

@panzer. I'm in my early 30s and I prefer the newer Final Fantasies. That being said, I didn't get into RPGs until I was in the Air Force and someone lent me their copy of Legend of Legaia.
 
I like discussing this stuff here, especially since your responses are well thought out, so if you're interested I'll elaborate...

[quote name='panzerfaust']FFX was the peak of the traditional system that you love. I couldn't say much changed aside from an enormously huge improvement in pacing, and much more engaging party management thanks to in-battle switches and something the game is revered for -- the sphere grid.

How you can say a game like FFIX is excellent and then say the combat took a downturn in X has my mind blown, personally.
[/QUOTE]
I liked X, but the battles in that game felt archaic without the ATB system. I like turn-based games, but Final Fantasy brought that to a new level in what, 1991? Why revert 10 years later?

In-battle switching was great, but being forced to use every character in order to pierce, use magic, etc. made it seem like it was paint by numbers. In earlier games you could use your own tactics rather than what the game taught you during the tutorial. The sphere grid was cool, I said it was the beginning of the decline, not garbage.

[quote name='panzerfaust']
As for exploration, I guess that's more personal preference. Mass Effect 2 became more linear and it was a huge step up from its predecessor. I guess it all depends on what you're looking for.

XII's dialogue is great, arguably the best in the series IMO. The old english will come on strong for some, so I understand your gripes -- but given the setting (Ivalice), it's hard not to appreciate the effort put into the dialogue.
[/QUOTE]

To me the dialogue was like lipstick on a pig, but like you said a lot of people enjoyed it.

[quote name='panzerfaust']
And yes, XII played very little like an FF game. Once again understandable to dislike it if you were expecting a certain experience, but at the same time a poor reason to not give it credit for a wonderful battle system. It ran like butter and watching good gambits in action was incredibly rewarding. Plus, best side-hunts in any FF game, period.
[/QUOTE]

Setting up gambits was fine... watching their execution was boring as hell. The dungeons were huge and stale, I thought I was playing a Roguelike. Spamming Quickenings and planning auto-battles felt like work rather than a game.

[quote name='panzerfaust']
You keep talking about incomplete sentences in XIII which is the first time I have ever heard that complaint. Odd thing to be annoyed by. Talk about Hope, or Snow. Something that I can understand!
[/QUOTE]
I am annoyed by watching a movie every 5-10 minutes with characters speaking in ridiculous, indirect half sentences that trail off. You have to read the entire glossary just to figure out what's going on. That's bad writing, which I would forgive if the battle system wasn't boring as hell.

[quote name='panzerfaust']
Sorry you aren't enjoying the newer games as much as the older ones. I'm a big fan of the PSX games but they certainly have aged, and I love how Square continues to do crazy, controversial things to their games when of all developers, they could probably just release the same thing every year and profit.

Hopefully Versus will change your mind (I hear there is a world map, airships etc...).[/QUOTE]

To me they're just following the lead of crappy developers making movies masquerading as games. With XIII-2 rehashing XIII I think I'll stick to the old games, but I'll give Versus a chance if it's cheap...
 
I like discussing this stuff here, especially since your responses are well thought out, so if you're interested I'll elaborate...

[quote name='panzerfaust']FFX was the peak of the traditional system that you love. I couldn't say much changed aside from an enormously huge improvement in pacing, and much more engaging party management thanks to in-battle switches and something the game is revered for -- the sphere grid.

How you can say a game like FFIX is excellent and then say the combat took a downturn in X has my mind blown, personally.
[/QUOTE]
I liked X, but the battles in that game felt archaic without the ATB system. I like turn-based games, but Final Fantasy brought that to a new level in what, 1991? Why revert 10 years later?

In-battle switching was great, but being forced to use every character in order to pierce, use magic, etc. made it seem like I was painting by the numbers. In earlier games you could use your own tactics rather than what the game taught you during the tutorial. The sphere grid was cool, I said it was the beginning of the decline, not garbage.

[quote name='panzerfaust']
As for exploration, I guess that's more personal preference. Mass Effect 2 became more linear and it was a huge step up from its predecessor. I guess it all depends on what you're looking for.

XII's dialogue is great, arguably the best in the series IMO. The old english will come on strong for some, so I understand your gripes -- but given the setting (Ivalice), it's hard not to appreciate the effort put into the dialogue.
[/QUOTE]

Linear is fine, just give me a stupid world map, at least pretend you created a huge world for me to check out. To me the dialogue in XII was like lipstick on a pig, but as you said a lot of people enjoyed it.

[quote name='panzerfaust']
And yes, XII played very little like an FF game. Once again understandable to dislike it if you were expecting a certain experience, but at the same time a poor reason to not give it credit for a wonderful battle system. It ran like butter and watching good gambits in action was incredibly rewarding. Plus, best side-hunts in any FF game, period.
[/QUOTE]

Setting up gambits was fine... watching their execution was boring as hell. The dungeons were huge and stale, I thought I was playing a Roguelike. Spamming Quickenings and planning auto-battles felt like work rather than a game.

[quote name='panzerfaust']
You keep talking about incomplete sentences in XIII which is the first time I have ever heard that complaint. Odd thing to be annoyed by. Talk about Hope, or Snow. Something that I can understand!
[/QUOTE]
I am annoyed by watching a movie every 5-10 minutes with characters speaking in ridiculous, indirect half sentences that trail off. You have to read the entire glossary just to figure out what's going on. That's bad writing, which I would forgive if the battle system wasn't boring as hell.

[quote name='panzerfaust']
Sorry you aren't enjoying the newer games as much as the older ones. I'm a big fan of the PSX games but they certainly have aged, and I love how Square continues to do crazy, controversial things to their games when of all developers, they could probably just release the same thing every year and profit.

Hopefully Versus will change your mind (I hear there is a world map, airships etc...).[/QUOTE]

To me they're just following the lead of crappy developers making movies masquerading as games. With XIII-2 rehashing XIII I think I'll stick to the old games, but I'll give Versus a chance if it's cheap...
 
[quote name='willardhaven']Setting up gambits was fine... watching their execution was boring as hell. The dungeons were huge and stale, I thought I was playing a Roguelike. Spamming Quickenings and planning auto-battles felt like work rather than a game.[/QUOTE]

The gambits were probably my biggest problem in XII. Same with a lot of Square's more recent action RPGs, like Crisis Core. They both make me feel like I'm wasting my time, because I'm not really doing anything.

It's like if a game had all auto-battles, then why have battles at all? With Crisis Core, I stopped because I was winning every fight with one button, and not even looking.

I don't mind doing work in games at all, like actually setting up the gambits, setting up materia combinations and junctions, crafting, walking around a dungeon mapping -- in fact, most of those are my favorite part in many games. It's when I spend hours not having to do anything that kills it for me.

Thinking about it now makes me realize why I like Secret of Mana and Etrian Odyssey so much, and highly customizable games like Infinite Space and MechCommander. Probably why I still play text-based rogue-likes.

Great post, btw.
 
I didn't like the Gambit system the first time I played FFXII (which was just about the only thing I didn't like about it). Every time I come back to the game, however, I end up liking gambits more and more. I think I kind of rushed through the first time and didn't take the time to appreciate them properly. Especially now I kind of view FFXII's battle system as sort of a light version of Dragon Age: Origin's. Just playing a sort of quasi-general role in battles can be very rewarding if you're willing to relinquish control.

I've mentioned this here before, but my biggest issue with FFXIII's battle system (which is what primarily killed the game for me) is that it actually tried to give back some cursory control over a single party member. Either let me control everything or let me control nothing, trying to straddle the line just didn't work for me.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']Plus, in XII you actually run through the world itself, zone to zone. It's pretty much a zoomed in world map because the developers were actually ambitious.[/QUOTE]

Dragon Quest VIII did that too, and you didn't zone nearly as much as FFXII. DQVIII is also a much, much better game.
 
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