The Declining Value Of Your College Degree...

That settles it. I've decided that I'm going to get a PhD in Psychology simply because I have nothing else better to do, anyway. Now that I have the next 14 or so years of my life planned out, I can lay low :cool:.
 
Soo... yeah, um... one of two things. Either you're rich or live in a cheap area. I'm glad you have a tree that grows money for you to go to school...
 
College seriously isn't expensive if you do well academically, and graduate study is even cheaper (often free) due to stipends. Ask dmaul, I bet he gets paid more by the school than he pays the school, even if he has insurance/housing/food plan through the college. Colleges like having graduate students.
 
[quote name='Koggit']College seriously isn't expensive if you do well academically, and graduate study is even cheaper (often free) due to stipends. Ask dmaul, I bet he gets paid more by the school than he pays the school, even if he has insurance/housing/food plan through the college. Colleges like having graduate students.[/QUOTE]

Most Phd students are funded, but the great majority of masters students are not. I think Dmaul probably gets a tuition waiver along with his stipend, so yeah, he's probably not paying anything to attend.
 
[quote name='Koggit']College seriously isn't expensive if you do well academically, and graduate study is even cheaper (often free) due to stipends. Ask dmaul, I bet he gets paid more by the school than he pays the school, even if he has insurance/housing/food plan through the college. Colleges like having graduate students.[/QUOTE]

Like I said above, except for my first year of grad school where I didn't have funding I've not paid a cent for grad school (starting my 7th and final year this fall). So I was funded for 2 of my 3 years for my masters and have been funded all 3 years for my Ph D so far and have funding for next year as well. Granted I've worked to get a lot of the funding as a lot of it has been grants I've co-authored with my advisor.

Through the funding my tuition is paid for and I've always gotten paid to go to school with salary ranging from $16 an hour to around $21 an hour now. It's a state job so it has medical and dental insurance etc.

No food plans--no on campus housing for grad students. Wouldn't want it anyway, only lived on campus for first year of undegrad. Much nicer (and cheaper) to live off campus with a roommate.

[quote name='VipFREAK']Well thank god I'm not blessed with being able to breeze though school... :roll:[/QUOTE]

I've not breezed through either. I've worked my ass off as I love it. Stop rolling your eyes and start studying harder.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Like I said above, except for my first year of grad school where I didn't have funding I've not paid a cent for grad school (starting my 7th and final year this fall). So I was funded for 2 of my 3 years for my masters and have been funded all 3 years for my Ph D so far and have funding for next year as well. Granted I've worked to get a lot of the funding as a lot of it has been grants I've co-authored with my advisor.

Through the funding my tuition is paid for and I've always gotten paid to go to school with salary ranging from $16 an hour to around $21 an hour now. It's a state job so it has medical and dental insurance etc.

No food plans--no on campus housing for grad students. Wouldn't want it anyway, only lived on campus for first year of undegrad. Much nicer (and cheaper) to live off campus with a roommate.[/QUOTE]

7 years?!?! What the hell have you been doing all this time? You really must like being a student.:)
 
[quote name='docvinh']7 years?!?! What the hell have you been doing all this time? You really must like being a student.:)[/QUOTE]

I'm at the top Ph D program in my field--takes most here 3 years to do their masters (some get by in two) and four for the Ph D (two comp exams and dissertation take time).

I probably could have finished Ph D in 3 since I did the masters at the same school and go through the comp exams in 2 years rather than 3 (like most Ph Ds who did master's elsewhere), but my dissertation is tied to a two year grant that tacked on the extra year in waiting for the data to be collected.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']I'm at the top Ph D program in my field--takes most here 3 years to do their masters (some get buy in two) and four for the Ph D (two comp exams and dissertation take time).

I probably could have finished Ph D in 3 since I did the masters at the same school and go tthrough the comp exams in 2 years rather than 3 (like most Ph Ds who did master's elsewhre), but my dissertation is tied to a two year grant that tacked on the extra year in waiting for the data to be collected.[/QUOTE]

Ahhh, okay, that makes more sense then. Most people I know make it through in 5 or 6. What are you getting your doctorate in anyway?
 
[quote name='docvinh']Ahhh, okay, that makes more sense then. Most people I know make it through in 5 or 6. What are you getting your doctorate in anyway?[/QUOTE]

Criminology and Criminal Justice.

Also takes more time if you want to go into academia and get an assistant professor job at a decent research university as you need to have a few publications on your CV and get some teaching experience if you want to be competitive.
 
[quote name='Koggit']College seriously isn't expensive if you do well academically, and graduate study is even cheaper (often free) due to stipends. Ask dmaul, I bet he gets paid more by the school than he pays the school, even if he has insurance/housing/food plan through the college. Colleges like having graduate students.[/QUOTE]I'll admit, one reason I'm not going to Grad School is because of a lack of $$$. Also, I've been in school way too long (I'm approaching 26), and I do need more work experience if anything, but the job searching process hasn't been good (partially because I can only stay home for now since I do not drive, and I could get better opportunities elsewhere, but could not get to work).
 
[quote name='davo1224']I give anyone props that wants to continue their education past high school, nevermind being in grad school.[/QUOTE]

Are you still in high school?

I ask as I HATED school through high school. But loved college and have especially enjoyed grad school--obviously since I turn 30 this fall and I'm still in school!

Point being that hating high school doesn't mean you won't like college. It's a whole different ballgame.
 
I'd go back to grad school for a Master's, but I don't feel like pissing that much money away for no guarantee of a return.

I'll just get more certifications.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I'll just get more certifications.[/QUOTE]

This.
I really think that's what matters rather then a general degree, but that's just my 2 cents.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I'd go back to grad school for a Master's, but I don't feel like pissing that much money away for no guarantee of a return.

I'll just get more certifications.[/QUOTE]

The decision of going back to grad school has more to do with the need to distinguish yourself from the rest of your co-workers (so you can move up in your specific field/company). For many people going to grad school is expensive and the return often does not justify the cost of attending. However, depending on your field grad school can increase your future earning potential significantly (such as MBA).

P.S. I'm not talking about doctorates (such as a PhD, MD, JD, etc) since they will significantly increase your pay scale and are totally worth it if you enjoy the work.
 
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[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I'd go back to grad school for a Master's, but I don't feel like pissing that much money away for no guarantee of a return.

I'll just get more certifications.[/quote]

Not to mention that school is a time-consuming activity.

For some firms it is a guaranteed return on investment, as sometimes they're willing to cover expenses, and to give time off.
 
I am thinking of doing my MS and then either my MBA or PhD. I will be in school until I am like 30 :(.

I agree with dmaul1114 though. I really didn't like school until the second year of college where I actually did interesting stuff.
 
On the topic of doctorates: Screw 90% of J.D.'s. They've degraded in value even more than Bachelor's. It's almost to the point where, unless you can get into a T14 (top 7% of law schools), no school is worth the ~160k sticker price.

kill3r7, are you a lawyer? I've been curious ever since you used K for contract. It's not something many people do, outside of those with a legal education.
 
[quote name='Koggit']On the topic of doctorates: Screw 90% of J.D.'s. They've degraded in value even more than Bachelor's. It's almost to the point where, unless you can get into a T14 (top 7% of law schools), no school is worth the ~160k sticker price.

kill3r7, are you a lawyer? I've been curious ever since you used K for contract. It's not something many people do, outside of those with a legal education.[/QUOTE]

Soon to be intellectual property lawyer (2L), my other option would have been a PhD in Biochemistry/Oncology which would have taken much longer to do. So law school made perfect sense, three years and you're out.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Are you still in high school?

I ask as I HATED school through high school. But loved college and have especially enjoyed grad school--obviously since I turn 30 this fall and I'm still in school!

Point being that hating high school doesn't mean you won't like college. It's a whole different ballgame.[/quote]

Been in college since 2003
 
[quote name='ananag112']I am thinking of doing my MS and then either my MBA or PhD. I will be in school until I am like 30 :(.[/quote]

How much debt do you expect to have afterwards and what is the entry level pay for your degree?
 
[quote name='GTzerO']Most of the people on the forum have a degree or are in college....I haven't seen a lot of " I'm living a successful life without a degree " in this thread. I'm seeing a lot of " Getting a job is hard with a degree, but it's even harder without one ". That could be true.

I bet that was a a rhetorical question, though.[/quote]

I have been in and out of this thread. It interests me greatly. This post reminds me.

How are you guys counting things like trade schools and such? I dont have a degree but as I said I went to broadcasting school which is basically a digital media arts degree without all the extra gen ed classes as you learn the exact same things.

So my question is, how are you weighing a 4 year degree over the trade school equivalent?
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Are you still in high school?

I ask as I HATED school through high school. But loved college and have especially enjoyed grad school--obviously since I turn 30 this fall and I'm still in school!

Point being that hating high school doesn't mean you won't like college. It's a whole different ballgame.[/quote]


Not necessarily true, but glad to hear that it worked out that way for you. For me, the converse holds. It depends in large part on where you went to high school, I guess. The high school I went to was filled with bright, eager, motivated students. Most of my close friends wound up going to top tier non-ivy league (duke, stanford, johns hopkins) schools or actual ivy league schools. Most kids were very mature and driven. I went to a public school, but we were usually one of the, if not the top ranked school in the state from what I've been told.

I go to a top 30 ranked college (I got wait listed at cornell and brown a few years back) and the kids I see for the most part are vapid, lazy, ignorant, often down-right nasty, self-entitled sloths. I'm not pigeon-holing everyone into this category, but I find it much harder to engage in intelligent conversation with most. Hell, I find it hard just to find a friendly face around.

Most of my friends are pre-med and some have already been accepted into the university medical school which is top 10 in the nation, so it's not to say there aren't mature and intelligent people around. Our undergrad is fairly small at roughly 1,000 students, and I feel that I've witnessed a large enough sample size of people to make an educated analysis. The typical denizen leaves much to be desired.

I miss high school far more in hindsight than I would have expected. So I guess in short, college to me feels like a step back ala middle school, not a natural progression and evolution of academia and social development (other than learning how to be a social drinker, i guess) as I had anticipated coming out of high school.
 
[quote name='Koggit']On the topic of doctorates: Screw 90% of J.D.'s. They've degraded in value even more than Bachelor's. It's almost to the point where, unless you can get into a T14 (top 7% of law schools), no school is worth the ~160k sticker price.[/QUOTE]

Most schools outside the T14 don't reach that level of cost, though that's outside the scope of your point.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']How much debt do you expect to have afterwards and what is the entry level pay for your degree?[/QUOTE]

$0 debt. Entry level is like $50k or something with a BS degree (mechanical engineering).
 
[quote name='Koggit']On the topic of doctorates: Screw 90% of J.D.'s. They've degraded in value even more than Bachelor's. It's almost to the point where, unless you can get into a T14 (top 7% of law schools), no school is worth the ~160k sticker price.
[/QUOTE]

THIS. Though some people in non-top-tier law schools like javeryh can make out well if they were at the top of their class. But since competition is so damn fierce at any law school, it's pretty much a crapshoot unless you're at a top school.

My ex graduated 3 years ago from a tier 1 law school and is STILL working temp jobs. However, he only had like a B- average.
 
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[quote name='Soodmeg']

So my question is, how are you weighing a 4 year degree over the trade school equivalent?[/quote]

I respect people that know what they want to do and go to trade school because society needs their skills. For me, I had no idea what I wanted to do and was hoping to get some time to figure it out over the next 4 years. Although I'm still somewhat uncertain, I've gained a better understanding of my long term goals, and truly believe my time spent was worth it.
 
[quote name='Magus8472']Most schools outside the T14 don't reach that level of cost, though that's outside the scope of your point.[/QUOTE]

But they actually do, it's ridiculous.

Check this out: http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html

Click a couple random tier 2 schools (50 - 100).

The first couple I clicked, at random:

Rank 88 -- Northeastern University School of Law -- $165,000 for 3yrs
Rank 100 -- Syracuse University College of Law -- $174,000 for 3yrs
Rank 82 -- University of Seattle School of Law -- $141,000 for 3yrs
Rank 88 -- DePaul University College of Law -- >$180,000 for 3yrs

What's worse? For those who can get a job, check out the dichotomy between biglaw and everything else:

nalp_bimodal.jpg

(this is before biglaw avg starting salary jumped to 160k, keep in mind the median didn't jump with it)

If you're not at the very top of your class or at a top school, $160k is an enormous debt to deal with on $50k a year, especially considering most job opportunities will be in big cities (with a high cost of living).
 
To be honest, you have to be out of your mind to be going to a school where you're going to have 160k in student loans over three years, I don't care how high it's ranked.

Quick side note, my fiance's aunt went to IU-Bloomington, and she has her own practice in family law. She seems to be doing quite well, so I would say it's very possible to be successful even at a less prestigious school, provided you do well of course.
 
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[quote name='Koggit']I'm going to go to Boalt if accepted, in which case I fully expect to have ~100k in debt by graduation.[/QUOTE]

Well, good luck to ya. I would personally move to Cali a year or so early so I could get the in-state tuition price, so you could save a couple of bucks. :)
 
[quote name='Koggit']Figures.[/QUOTE]

Those figures go beyond straight tuition and fees, and include things like rent, groceries, and strangely, gas and entertainment, all of which are overestimates and could logically be funded by non-loan income especially beyond the first year. Plus, the majority of these schools are located outside of major cities which, as you say, lowers COL by a good bit. Add into that slightly higher median grant offers and you'll arrive at numbers a good deal under the straight $120k in tuition and fees Boalt is going to ask for.

Even Boalt does the same thing, just look.

[quote name='"Boalt Fin. Aid"']Personal (maintenance, clothing, recreation, etc.) $2,338.00
Transportation $2,680.00[/QUOTE]

I guarantee that, unless you're going to commute to Berkely from San Francisco, that's five grand that you're not going to need to spend.

Here's a more direct list, which has numbers similar to those I was seeing while applying last fall. Though I would ignore its assertions that the Universities of Michigan and Pennsylvania among others are, in fact, in New York.

As for actually finding a job after school, that depends almost entirely on performance in school, though you'll be able to get away with more coming out of a T14 or even a T1.

I'm going to go to Boalt if accepted, in which case I fully expect to have ~100k in debt by graduation.
Click to expand...

Good luck to ya. The whole holistic approach drives me batty.

EDIT: Whoops, I meant grant offers up there. Fixed.
 
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With law it all depends on your field. My best friend goes to Baylor and just finished his summer internship with a top-tier IP law firm in NYC (Starting salary $160,000 not including bonuses). However, my other friend who graduated from Columbia Law is starting this year as an ADA in Manhattan for $55,000 but that's life...the public sector doesn't pay.
 
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[quote name='darkcecil32']Not necessarily true, but glad to hear that it worked out that way for you. For me, the converse holds. It depends in large part on where you went to high school, I guess. The high school I went to was filled with bright, eager, motivated students. Most of my close friends wound up going to top tier non-ivy league (duke, stanford, johns hopkins) schools or actual ivy league schools. Most kids were very mature and driven. I went to a public school, but we were usually one of the, if not the top ranked school in the state from what I've been told.[/quote]

My high school was fine. I just hated being stuck in a school for 8 hours, not having enough choice in what to take, all the stupid cliques etc.

College was fine, I didn't go to a great undergrad school (WVU) but the classes were mostly enjoyable. Part of it is what you take--some classes were full of jocks and people who didn't care, and others were full of very engaged students. And all the partying (it was the top party school my first year and always in the top 10) didn't help at all. Got a good education, made good grades and had a ton of fun.

Grad school has been wonderful since I'm at the top ranked doctoral program in my field, so the professors and classmates have been great.
 
[quote name='Koggit']

degree_worth3.gif

[/quote]

God damn chemical engineers. I've heard from a lot of them that there aren't a whole of oppurtunities in the field, though, when compared to electrical or mechanical. Gotta love the fact that the major engineering disciplines occupy 6 of the 7 top spots and less than $5k separates industrial from chemical, though. ROFFLE at the civils.

I'm gonna try to get an industrial engg degree, too, as many of the ME classes I've taken count towards it. The college of engineering doesn't really allow dual majoring, however, but industrial is easy.
 
[quote name='evanft']God damn chemical engineers. I've heard from a lot of them that there aren't a whole of oppurtunities in the field, though, when compared to electrical or mechanical. Gotta love the fact that the major engineering disciplines occupy 6 of the 7 top spots and less than $5k separates industrial from chemical, though. ROFFLE at the civils.

I'm gonna try to get an industrial engg degree, too, as many of the ME classes I've taken count towards it. The college of engineering doesn't really allow dual majoring, however, but industrial is easy.[/QUOTE]

Nah, there are a lot of opportunities for ChemE's now. Its growing quite nicely.

Also, while starting salaries are nice for engineers, it doesn't go up a whole lot more over the years compared to other majors. Why switch from ME to IE though?
 
[quote name='evanft']God damn chemical engineers. I've heard from a lot of them that there aren't a whole of oppurtunities in the field, though, when compared to electrical or mechanical. Gotta love the fact that the major engineering disciplines occupy 6 of the 7 top spots and less than $5k separates industrial from chemical, though. ROFFLE at the civils.

I'm gonna try to get an industrial engg degree, too, as many of the ME classes I've taken count towards it. The college of engineering doesn't really allow dual majoring, however, but industrial is easy.[/QUOTE]

I think the main thing holding civil engr pay back is that a large portion of the jobs are in the public sector. I've heard of civil engineers going off to Boeing and making the same as every other Boeing hire, ~65k. But when half of CE grads are working for the city at 30k, it's going to bring the average down quite a bit.
 
Yeah, that's the problem with average salaries. Some fields are split between high and low paying public vs. private sector jobs and it messes up the average.

It's more useful to see something like what the top 1/4th of grads of a major make vs. the bottom 1/4th etc. But I've seldom seen those kind of write ups.

Even just having the standard deviation of the mean salaries along with the range would be more useful.
 
How much does your college of choice matter? See, I want to go to school for Psychology like I said earlier, but practically everyone covers it, so what else should i choose a school based on?
 
[quote name='GTzerO']How much does your college of choice matter? See, I want to go to school for Psychology like I said earlier, but practically everyone covers it, so what else should i choose a school based on?[/quote]

1. Per capita beer and drug consumption

2. # of Skull and Bones members

3. Graduates' thoughts on the college
 
You'll learn the exact same thing in your classes at nearly every school. The big question is really what do you plan to do with your degree.

If you plan to use your bachelor's to get a job, go to the most prestigious university that will take you. GPA matters, but school prestige matters more.

If you plan to use your bachelor's to get into grad/professional school, go to the university that will give you the highest GPA. School prestige matters, but GPA matters more.

The former situation is pretty straightforward -- just go by school rank. For the latter, I'd suggest looking into the graduate application process and cherry-pick your school based on what you need. For example, if you want to do graduate study in psychology it'd be important to pick a school with undergraduate research opportunities. If you want go to law school it'd be important to pick a school that uses letter grading on a +/- system.
 
Is it possible to get a job in a field while trying to get a higher degree in it or is school too time consuming?

Also, what do you mean by " graduate study" and " undergraduate research opportunities?
 
Undergraduates = students without a Bachelor's degree (the 4yr college degree).

Graduates = students working on their Master's degree (in all but very very rare exceptions these students have already earned a Bachelor's).

Post-graduates = students working on their Doctorate (PhD). The vast majority of these students already have Master's degrees and Bachelor's degrees.

Post-doctorate (aka postdoc) = not students, have earned a PhD and are doing research at the university. It's sort of a job and sort of a learning experience. This is usually done by PhDs who want a little more research experience before going down their career path (research, teaching, whatever).


When I say a school with "undergraduate research opportunities" I just mean that the school allows undergraduates (first four years of college) to take part in the university's research projects. Some schools are much more involved in research than others, and even the schools that perform a lot of research may limit most participation to graduate students. If you want to enter academia or become a researcher, it's great to get research experience as an undergraduate so that you are a strong applicant to grad school.

The degree you want will depend on your field, aptitude and personal goals. With psychology, since it's such a common major without a whole lot of demand, few students see much success with just a Bachelor's. The top students usually go on to professional school (med school, law school) or grad school (to earn a Master's and/or PhD in Psychology or a related field). If you plan to go beyond your Bachelor's degree, the institution (and even the major) become less important.
 
[quote name='GTzerO']How much does your college of choice matter? See, I want to go to school for Psychology like I said earlier, but practically everyone covers it, so what else should i choose a school based on?[/QUOTE]

If you're going for psychology, you definitely need to understand you're going to need a graduate degree for it to be useful at all. Getting an undergrad degree and stopping is like not going to college at all. You have any idea what branch of psych you might be interested in?
 
I surprised no one has mentioned networking/contacts. Who you know can arguably be as important, if not more important than your degree.
 
[quote name='moojuice']I surprised no one has mentioned networking/contacts. Who you know can arguably be as important, if not more important than your degree.[/quote]

True. The last guy to get promoted here literally massaged his supervisor for months.
 
What you can do is so broad that I'll just say I'd like to do anything that will secure me a job, which I have no idea what field that is.
 
Prestige of school really depends on field--and GPA and good reference letters and networking can make a huge difference.

Likes I said I did my undergrad at WVU- a decent third tier school (1st tier is top 50%, 3rd is 51-75%), graduated magna cum laude and got into the top graduate program in my field and had offers from the other 2 (also top 10) that I applied to. And that was with changing fields from Journalism to Criminology (though I did minor in sociology and took a handful of crim classes as an undergrad).

As for working during grad school, it is possible--some of my class mates do it. But you're much better off to try to get a position in your department. You can get tuition paid, get a decent salary and get generally better experience (especially if you want to do research or teaching) and they'll be more amenable to your schedule since you're working for professors who know what it's like.

No need to figure out branch of psychology yet, take some classes and figure it out as you go. Really don't have to decide until grad school.
 
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