The Declining Value Of Your College Degree...
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[quote name='gareman']What I have learned in College I cannot put a price tag on, nor do I care what kind of Job I land from my degree.
For me the most important reason to go to College is the ideas you are exposed to, the people you meet, the way of looking at the world, and problem solving skills both in and out of the workplace. It brought me to my breaking point (or so I thought) in terms of working and thinking i.e staying up all night, writing at 30 page paper on Wal-mart, studying for 6 hours straight. It taught me how to speak and (somewhat) write in a concise and logical manner.
I know it sounds cliche but College is what you make of it. If you want to get in--get out and make a ton of money then you won't get much, but if you take your time, experiment with classes, immerse yourselves in many subjects (even for just a semester), talk to other students and teachers, and really try hard and do your best then you will come out a better more enlighten person. Which will probably lead to a better job anyway....better stress management, typing/writing/speaking, problem-solving, organization skills etc.[/QUOTE]
Very well said. And a big part of the reason that I'm still in school and will be a professor when I'm done.
That's the true value of college, academia and learning in general in a nutshell. It's not for the miserable sons of bitches who just want to work as little as they can to make as much money as they can.
For me the most important reason to go to College is the ideas you are exposed to, the people you meet, the way of looking at the world, and problem solving skills both in and out of the workplace. It brought me to my breaking point (or so I thought) in terms of working and thinking i.e staying up all night, writing at 30 page paper on Wal-mart, studying for 6 hours straight. It taught me how to speak and (somewhat) write in a concise and logical manner.
I know it sounds cliche but College is what you make of it. If you want to get in--get out and make a ton of money then you won't get much, but if you take your time, experiment with classes, immerse yourselves in many subjects (even for just a semester), talk to other students and teachers, and really try hard and do your best then you will come out a better more enlighten person. Which will probably lead to a better job anyway....better stress management, typing/writing/speaking, problem-solving, organization skills etc.[/QUOTE]
Very well said. And a big part of the reason that I'm still in school and will be a professor when I'm done.
That's the true value of college, academia and learning in general in a nutshell. It's not for the miserable sons of bitches who just want to work as little as they can to make as much money as they can.
soulvengeance
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[quote name='Koggit']I thought this was interesting: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/356181_trades24.html
[/QUOTE]
I've been reading that there is a huge shortage of people in trade work. I think a lot of people who end up going to college would probably be better off going into a trade, because it's obvious you can make a pretty good living.
I've been reading that there is a huge shortage of people in trade work. I think a lot of people who end up going to college would probably be better off going into a trade, because it's obvious you can make a pretty good living.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Let's try a scenario:
Person #1:
1. Not smart enough to get into college.
2. Works for a dive 60 hours a week for $7/hour.
3. Lives at home with parents.
4. Puts $150 per week in a mutual fund making 10% per year.
Person #2:
1. Smart enough to get into college.
2. Works for a dive 10 hours a week for $7/hour (think work study job).
3. Takes out $6,000 in loans per year at an interest rate of 3%.
4. Lives at home with parents.
How much money does Person #2 have to earn before he/she surpasses Person #1's savings at a particular age?
Show your work.[/quote]
But this scenario doesn't consider things in the long run. For example, Person 2's wage/hours will increase drastically, whereas Person 1's wage/hours will remain constant, or slightly increase. Assuming both will move out eventually, Person 1's spending/saving practices will have to change. Person 2 will more than likely be also to invest more money in savings after they graduate. And so on...
Person #1:
1. Not smart enough to get into college.
2. Works for a dive 60 hours a week for $7/hour.
3. Lives at home with parents.
4. Puts $150 per week in a mutual fund making 10% per year.
Person #2:
1. Smart enough to get into college.
2. Works for a dive 10 hours a week for $7/hour (think work study job).
3. Takes out $6,000 in loans per year at an interest rate of 3%.
4. Lives at home with parents.
How much money does Person #2 have to earn before he/she surpasses Person #1's savings at a particular age?
Show your work.[/quote]
But this scenario doesn't consider things in the long run. For example, Person 2's wage/hours will increase drastically, whereas Person 1's wage/hours will remain constant, or slightly increase. Assuming both will move out eventually, Person 1's spending/saving practices will have to change. Person 2 will more than likely be also to invest more money in savings after they graduate. And so on...
Definitely a shortage of workers in various trades, and that's part of the reason for the wages going up (though most trades have always paid pretty well).
And I'd agree that for people that only care about making a nice paycheck, that's probably the way to go versus wasting time in college if they're only goal is to get a degree for a paycheck. But a lot of those types of people are, again, lazy and just want to make as much money as possible and easily as possible so manual labor is out. Too many people just want to get rich quick without having to work for it.
I considered a trade career as I had some construction jobs and other labor intensive jobs (worked in a saw mill for a while) in high school and first year or two of college but it just wasn't for me. I didn't mind the manual labor, but I just wanted a career that was intellectually challenging and stimulating.
And I'd agree that for people that only care about making a nice paycheck, that's probably the way to go versus wasting time in college if they're only goal is to get a degree for a paycheck. But a lot of those types of people are, again, lazy and just want to make as much money as possible and easily as possible so manual labor is out. Too many people just want to get rich quick without having to work for it.
I considered a trade career as I had some construction jobs and other labor intensive jobs (worked in a saw mill for a while) in high school and first year or two of college but it just wasn't for me. I didn't mind the manual labor, but I just wanted a career that was intellectually challenging and stimulating.
GTzerO
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[quote name='gareman']What I have learned in College I cannot put a price tag on, nor do I care what kind of Job I land from my degree.
For me the most important reason to go to College is the ideas you are exposed to, the people you meet, the way of looking at the world, and problem solving skills both in and out of the workplace. It brought me to my breaking point (or so I thought) in terms of working and thinking i.e staying up all night, writing at 30 page paper on Wal-mart, studying for 6 hours straight. It taught me how to speak and (somewhat) write in a concise and logical manner.
.[/quote]
wut
And all the benefits that you got from college could be achieved outside of college if someone wanted to.
For me the most important reason to go to College is the ideas you are exposed to, the people you meet, the way of looking at the world, and problem solving skills both in and out of the workplace. It brought me to my breaking point (or so I thought) in terms of working and thinking i.e staying up all night, writing at 30 page paper on Wal-mart, studying for 6 hours straight. It taught me how to speak and (somewhat) write in a concise and logical manner.
.[/quote]
wut
And all the benefits that you got from college could be achieved outside of college if someone wanted to.
petrieslastword
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It amuses me because though I am in school, I don't know what I want to do, but I already make more than most of the college graduates I know. I wait tables, and actually don't hate it. I currently make about $30 an hour after taxes, and that makes it very hard to take school, or any other job market, seriously. It's amazing what being personable, quick-witted, and hard-working can make you in this particular industry. I pay all my bills and put away about $2000 a month on top of that. Why do I need a degree again?
And all this is during our slow season, with the supposed "economic problems". Apparently Americans don't plan to stop eating out no matter how bad things get, or how expensive gas is.
And all this is during our slow season, with the supposed "economic problems". Apparently Americans don't plan to stop eating out no matter how bad things get, or how expensive gas is.
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GTzerO
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[quote name='contej85']It amuses me because though I am in school, I don't know what I want to do, but I already make more than most of the college graduates I know. I wait tables, and actually don't hate it. I currently make about $30 an hour after taxes, and that makes it very hard to take school, or any other job market, seriously. It's amazing what being personable, quick-witted, and hard-working can make you in this particular industry. I pay all my bills and put away about $2000 a month on top of that. Why do I need a degree again?
[/quote]
Asking a bunch of people who are in college about the necessity of a college degree isn't going to get you the most accurate of answers to that question.
[/quote]
Asking a bunch of people who are in college about the necessity of a college degree isn't going to get you the most accurate of answers to that question.
petrieslastword
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[quote name='GTzerO']Asking a bunch of people who are in college about the necessity of a college degree isn't going to get you the most accurate of answers to that question.[/quote]
I didn't, I posed the question to the entire forum, of which many users are college graduates.
I didn't, I posed the question to the entire forum, of which many users are college graduates.
[quote name='GTzerO']wut
And all the benefits that you got from college could be achieved outside of college if someone wanted to.[/QUOTE]
Possibly. But it's hard to argue that the college experience is easisly replicated outside of college.
Most people aren't going to be exposed to so many ideas, subject matters, points of view etc. other wise. Most people aren't going to be active in seeking that out, where in college you have no way to avoid it.
But I know I'm biased since I've been in college and grad school for over 10 years now and will stay in academia when I graduate.
And all the benefits that you got from college could be achieved outside of college if someone wanted to.[/QUOTE]
Possibly. But it's hard to argue that the college experience is easisly replicated outside of college.
Most people aren't going to be exposed to so many ideas, subject matters, points of view etc. other wise. Most people aren't going to be active in seeking that out, where in college you have no way to avoid it.
But I know I'm biased since I've been in college and grad school for over 10 years now and will stay in academia when I graduate.
petrieslastword
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[quote name='GTzerO']Then my point still stands.[/quote]
How so? They are the very people who can tell me what the benefits they have experienced from having a college degree. Someone without said degree does not have that experience. All sides can weigh in on the issue.
How so? They are the very people who can tell me what the benefits they have experienced from having a college degree. Someone without said degree does not have that experience. All sides can weigh in on the issue.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='moojuice']But this scenario doesn't consider things in the long run. For example, Person 2's wage/hours will increase drastically, whereas Person 1's wage/hours will remain constant, or slightly increase. Assuming both will move out eventually, Person 1's spending/saving practices will have to change. Person 2 will more than likely be also to invest more money in savings after they graduate. And so on...[/quote]
Why do people take a simple model and try to dump more complexity on it?
You can set whatever wage you like for Person#2. The goal is to set a wage for Person#2 and determine when #2's savings surpass #1's.
Yes, Person#1 and #2 eventually move out of the nest. Perhaps #1 becomes a supervisor before #2 graduates. Perhaps #2 knocks up three women or gets knocked up a year after graduation. Oh, noes! What about cancer? And a spouse's job? How about lottery tickets? Additional education? The rise of mutant Beanie Babies?
Why do people take a simple model and try to dump more complexity on it?
You can set whatever wage you like for Person#2. The goal is to set a wage for Person#2 and determine when #2's savings surpass #1's.
Yes, Person#1 and #2 eventually move out of the nest. Perhaps #1 becomes a supervisor before #2 graduates. Perhaps #2 knocks up three women or gets knocked up a year after graduation. Oh, noes! What about cancer? And a spouse's job? How about lottery tickets? Additional education? The rise of mutant Beanie Babies?
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Why do people take a simple model and try to dump more complexity on it?
You can set whatever wage you like for Person#2. The goal is to set a wage for Person#2 and determine when #2's savings surpass #1's.
Yes, Person#1 and #2 eventually move out of the nest. Perhaps #1 becomes a supervisor before #2 graduates. Perhaps #2 knocks up three women or gets knocked up a year after graduation. Oh, noes! What about cancer? And a spouse's job? How about lottery tickets? Additional education? The rise of mutant Beanie Babies?[/quote]
Thats my point. You can't use a "simple" model when there are so many variables.
You can set whatever wage you like for Person#2. The goal is to set a wage for Person#2 and determine when #2's savings surpass #1's.
Yes, Person#1 and #2 eventually move out of the nest. Perhaps #1 becomes a supervisor before #2 graduates. Perhaps #2 knocks up three women or gets knocked up a year after graduation. Oh, noes! What about cancer? And a spouse's job? How about lottery tickets? Additional education? The rise of mutant Beanie Babies?[/quote]
Thats my point. You can't use a "simple" model when there are so many variables.
GTzerO
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[quote name='contej85']How so? They are the very people who can tell me what the benefits they have experienced from having a college degree. Someone without said degree does not have that experience. All sides can weigh in on the issue.[/quote]
Most of the people on the forum have a degree or are in college....I haven't seen a lot of " I'm living a successful life without a degree " in this thread. I'm seeing a lot of " Getting a job is hard with a degree, but it's even harder without one ". That could be true.
I bet that was a a rhetorical question, though.
Most of the people on the forum have a degree or are in college....I haven't seen a lot of " I'm living a successful life without a degree " in this thread. I'm seeing a lot of " Getting a job is hard with a degree, but it's even harder without one ". That could be true.
I bet that was a a rhetorical question, though.
If the worth of a college degree is purely monetary, then yes you can be financially successful without one and likewise from a purely economic standpoint, perhaps its value is "declining", However if you view college not as a trade school but instead as the opportunity for four years of personal enrichment, it's value is far higher than a simple paycheck. College shouldn't be like a vending machine where you put in your $100,000 and out comes a degree and (hopefully) a job. It's an investment in your personal growth to be a well-educated, well-rounded person.
[quote name='lilboo']Does this make me a loser that my goal in life is to just chill and be happy?
I kinda wanna go to college, but that's only because I feel required to go eventually.
For a career, I really don't have anything in mind :lol: :lol:..like if I have a job that I'm paid well in, and I'm content with...and basically all my financial needs and WANTS are met..does it really matter?
Like I just HATE the concept of work. I really don't get how people's driving focus in life is what they do at work. You can spend 80 hours a week at work, and make a TON of money but when do you get a chance to spend all that money?! :lol:
I don't know, I'm liking being the second income in this family of ours.. :lol:[/quote]
You got it right! I work to afford fun (and because of the occasional chicks I do the dishes with). There's no way I'm gonna spend my last summer as a teen in a kitchen doing the dishes. Tsss
I kinda wanna go to college, but that's only because I feel required to go eventually.
For a career, I really don't have anything in mind :lol: :lol:..like if I have a job that I'm paid well in, and I'm content with...and basically all my financial needs and WANTS are met..does it really matter?
Like I just HATE the concept of work. I really don't get how people's driving focus in life is what they do at work. You can spend 80 hours a week at work, and make a TON of money but when do you get a chance to spend all that money?! :lol:
I don't know, I'm liking being the second income in this family of ours.. :lol:[/quote]
You got it right! I work to afford fun (and because of the occasional chicks I do the dishes with). There's no way I'm gonna spend my last summer as a teen in a kitchen doing the dishes. Tsss
Eh, I feel like the whole "college makes you a fuller person" rigamarole is as much a myth as anything. It accords everyone a similar batch of experiences, yes, but they aren't necessarily "enriching" (or the opposite, but that's the point) purely because they're communal.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Why do people take a simple model and try to dump more complexity on it?
You can set whatever wage you like for Person#2. The goal is to set a wage for Person#2 and determine when #2's savings surpass #1's.
Yes, Person#1 and #2 eventually move out of the nest. Perhaps #1 becomes a supervisor before #2 graduates. Perhaps #2 knocks up three women or gets knocked up a year after graduation. Oh, noes! What about cancer? And a spouse's job? How about lottery tickets? Additional education? The rise of mutant Beanie Babies?[/QUOTE]
Because you always make scenarios that are far too simple to be remotely practical in the real world to try to make a point related to whatever agenda you have for the topic at hand. In this case, I assume it's bitterness over your degree not doing you any good.
Most likely person 1 will have more money saved up for a while after person 2 is done with college, but eventually person 2 will surpass them as they'll make a lot more money as time goes on assuming both are hardworking.
Also assuming that person 2 is a getting a useful degree that will help them get a job, and is getting a degree in a good paying field rather than just wanting a job to do good (i.e. a social worker or something). The real world is complex.
But again I'll concede here. If someone has not intellectual ambition and just wants to pay the bills, then they should stay out of college. I'd ask them to please stay out as such students are the one thing I dislike about teaching college classes. If you aren't going to come, be interested and study hard don't waste your time. There are plenty of non-intellectual jobs out there for people who just go through the motions to pay the bills and build up savings.
You can set whatever wage you like for Person#2. The goal is to set a wage for Person#2 and determine when #2's savings surpass #1's.
Yes, Person#1 and #2 eventually move out of the nest. Perhaps #1 becomes a supervisor before #2 graduates. Perhaps #2 knocks up three women or gets knocked up a year after graduation. Oh, noes! What about cancer? And a spouse's job? How about lottery tickets? Additional education? The rise of mutant Beanie Babies?[/QUOTE]
Because you always make scenarios that are far too simple to be remotely practical in the real world to try to make a point related to whatever agenda you have for the topic at hand. In this case, I assume it's bitterness over your degree not doing you any good.
Most likely person 1 will have more money saved up for a while after person 2 is done with college, but eventually person 2 will surpass them as they'll make a lot more money as time goes on assuming both are hardworking.
Also assuming that person 2 is a getting a useful degree that will help them get a job, and is getting a degree in a good paying field rather than just wanting a job to do good (i.e. a social worker or something). The real world is complex.
But again I'll concede here. If someone has not intellectual ambition and just wants to pay the bills, then they should stay out of college. I'd ask them to please stay out as such students are the one thing I dislike about teaching college classes. If you aren't going to come, be interested and study hard don't waste your time. There are plenty of non-intellectual jobs out there for people who just go through the motions to pay the bills and build up savings.
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petrieslastword
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[quote name='GTzerO']Most of the people on the forum have a degree or are in college....I haven't seen a lot of " I'm living a successful life without a degree " in this thread. I'm seeing a lot of " Getting a job is hard with a degree, but it's even harder without one ". That could be true.
I bet that was a a rhetorical question, though.[/quote]
Depends what sort of job you speak of. My job requires no degree, and I make more than most of the people I know with a degree. My point is that if all you see college as is a means to get a job making good money, you can do that right now without a degree. I'm in school because for now I enjoy it.
I bet that was a a rhetorical question, though.[/quote]
Depends what sort of job you speak of. My job requires no degree, and I make more than most of the people I know with a degree. My point is that if all you see college as is a means to get a job making good money, you can do that right now without a degree. I'm in school because for now I enjoy it.
FoC, I'm too lazy to deal with all your conditions, so I'll simplify it into...
Person #1:
Saves $8,000/yr (rounding up from $150 x 52 wks)
Person #2:
Borrows $6,000/yr
How much they make or whatever is pointless. All that matters in your question is change in net worth. After 4 years, #1 saved $32,000 and #2 is borrowed $24,000. The student loan is interest free until graduation and the mutual fund raises the $32,000 to no higher than $45,000. That $70k difference in net worth will be equalized after just a year or two of working. Even Liberal Arts majors make about twice as much as person #1, and in their case the difference in net worth would take 4 yrs to equalize.
But the biggest problem I have is with is allocating 60hr/wk for #1. If a student spent 50hr/wk studying they'd be a 4.0 student with strong extracurrics, and with those credentials they'd be on a full scholarship, no $6,000/yr debt. The reason college is expensive for a lot of people is because they spend maybe 15hr/wk on school, 15hr/wk on work and 20hr/wk jacking off.
Person #1:
Saves $8,000/yr (rounding up from $150 x 52 wks)
Person #2:
Borrows $6,000/yr
How much they make or whatever is pointless. All that matters in your question is change in net worth. After 4 years, #1 saved $32,000 and #2 is borrowed $24,000. The student loan is interest free until graduation and the mutual fund raises the $32,000 to no higher than $45,000. That $70k difference in net worth will be equalized after just a year or two of working. Even Liberal Arts majors make about twice as much as person #1, and in their case the difference in net worth would take 4 yrs to equalize.
But the biggest problem I have is with is allocating 60hr/wk for #1. If a student spent 50hr/wk studying they'd be a 4.0 student with strong extracurrics, and with those credentials they'd be on a full scholarship, no $6,000/yr debt. The reason college is expensive for a lot of people is because they spend maybe 15hr/wk on school, 15hr/wk on work and 20hr/wk jacking off.
[quote name='Magus8472']Eh, I feel like the whole "college makes you a fuller person" rigamarole is as much a myth as anything. It accords everyone a similar batch of experiences, yes, but they aren't necessarily "enriching" (or the opposite, but that's the point) purely because they're communal.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's the communal aspect. It's the breadth of knowledge and critical thinking skills your forced to acquire if you go to a good school, study hard and make good grades (i.e. you actually try). You're really not going to get that outside of academia--it forces you to learn about stuff you wouldn't care to ever dig up on your own, and you're a better person for it IMO.
It really shows IMO. I don't have any friends without at least bachelors, and no close friends currently who don't have at least masters. It's not an active selection process but just how things played out after the socialization process and befriending people who could have interesting discourse as well as having stuff in common like interest in gaming, good beer etc.
I don't think it's the communal aspect. It's the breadth of knowledge and critical thinking skills your forced to acquire if you go to a good school, study hard and make good grades (i.e. you actually try). You're really not going to get that outside of academia--it forces you to learn about stuff you wouldn't care to ever dig up on your own, and you're a better person for it IMO.
It really shows IMO. I don't have any friends without at least bachelors, and no close friends currently who don't have at least masters. It's not an active selection process but just how things played out after the socialization process and befriending people who could have interesting discourse as well as having stuff in common like interest in gaming, good beer etc.
[quote name='contej85']Depends what sort of job you speak of. My job requires no degree, and I make more than most of the people I know with a degree. My point is that if all you see college as is a means to get a job making good money, you can do that right now without a degree. I'm in school because for now I enjoy it.[/QUOTE]
How old are you friends? The ceiling on food service is much, much lower than most careers that require a college education.
A waiter and a engineer in training may each make $30/hr, but after a couple years the engineer is going to be at $50/hr and the waiter still at $30. After 15 yrs the engineer is going to be project manager making $60/hr and the waiter is still at $30. The engineer can become a patent paralegal and make $70/hr. Etc, etc. What's the waiter at this time? Manager of Olive Garden?
How old are you friends? The ceiling on food service is much, much lower than most careers that require a college education.
A waiter and a engineer in training may each make $30/hr, but after a couple years the engineer is going to be at $50/hr and the waiter still at $30. After 15 yrs the engineer is going to be project manager making $60/hr and the waiter is still at $30. The engineer can become a patent paralegal and make $70/hr. Etc, etc. What's the waiter at this time? Manager of Olive Garden?
[quote name='Koggit']How old are you friends? The ceiling on food service is much, much lower than most careers that require a college education.
A waiter and a engineer in training may each make $30/hr, but after a couple years the engineer is going to be at $50/hr and the waiter still at $30. After 15 yrs the engineer is going to be project manager making $60/hr and the waiter is still at $30. The engineer can become a patent paralegal and make $70/hr. Etc, etc. What's the waiter at this time? Manager of Olive Garden?[/QUOTE]
Yep, and that's the kicker in FoC's scenario 2. Person 2 will likely eventually make a lot more money that person 1, who in a trade will seldom ever get anything but standard COLA raises.
A waiter and a engineer in training may each make $30/hr, but after a couple years the engineer is going to be at $50/hr and the waiter still at $30. After 15 yrs the engineer is going to be project manager making $60/hr and the waiter is still at $30. The engineer can become a patent paralegal and make $70/hr. Etc, etc. What's the waiter at this time? Manager of Olive Garden?[/QUOTE]
Yep, and that's the kicker in FoC's scenario 2. Person 2 will likely eventually make a lot more money that person 1, who in a trade will seldom ever get anything but standard COLA raises.
petrieslastword
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[quote name='Koggit']FoC, I'm too lazy to deal with all your conditions, so I'll simplify it into...
Person #1:
Saves $8,000/yr (rounding up from $150 x 52 wks)
Person #2:
Borrows $6,000/yr
How much they make or whatever is pointless. All that matters in your question is change in net worth. After 4 years, #1 saved $32,000 and #2 is borrowed $24,000. The student loan is interest free until graduation and the mutual fund raises the $32,000 to no higher than $45,000. That $70k difference in net worth will be equalized after just a year or two of working. Even Liberal Arts majors make about twice as much as person #1, and in their case the difference in net worth would take 4 yrs to equalize.
But the biggest problem I have is with is allocating 60hr/wk for #1. If a student spent 50hr/wk studying they'd be a 4.0 student with strong extracurrics, and with those credentials they'd be on a full scholarship, no $6,000/yr debt. The reason college is expensive for a lot of people is because they spend maybe 15hr/wk on school, 15hr/wk on work and 20hr/wk jacking off.[/quote]
Ok, but I make more than the Liberal Arts major, by a decent amount, in fact I make more than I see right there after taxes. I have no interest in going into any kind of engineering, the work simply seems boring and I'd rather do something I derive enjoyment from. I guess to me I have yet to find a career than is practical, enjoyable, and where I'd make more than I do now. (I continue school despite this, as I hope that when I do find that career, I'll at least be part of the way there.)
Person #1:
Saves $8,000/yr (rounding up from $150 x 52 wks)
Person #2:
Borrows $6,000/yr
How much they make or whatever is pointless. All that matters in your question is change in net worth. After 4 years, #1 saved $32,000 and #2 is borrowed $24,000. The student loan is interest free until graduation and the mutual fund raises the $32,000 to no higher than $45,000. That $70k difference in net worth will be equalized after just a year or two of working. Even Liberal Arts majors make about twice as much as person #1, and in their case the difference in net worth would take 4 yrs to equalize.
But the biggest problem I have is with is allocating 60hr/wk for #1. If a student spent 50hr/wk studying they'd be a 4.0 student with strong extracurrics, and with those credentials they'd be on a full scholarship, no $6,000/yr debt. The reason college is expensive for a lot of people is because they spend maybe 15hr/wk on school, 15hr/wk on work and 20hr/wk jacking off.[/quote]
Ok, but I make more than the Liberal Arts major, by a decent amount, in fact I make more than I see right there after taxes. I have no interest in going into any kind of engineering, the work simply seems boring and I'd rather do something I derive enjoyment from. I guess to me I have yet to find a career than is practical, enjoyable, and where I'd make more than I do now. (I continue school despite this, as I hope that when I do find that career, I'll at least be part of the way there.)
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petrieslastword
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[quote name='Koggit']How old are you friends? The ceiling on food service is much, much lower than most careers that require a college education.
A waiter and a engineer in training may each make $30/hr, but after a couple years the engineer is going to be at $50/hr and the waiter still at $30. After 15 yrs the engineer is going to be project manager making $60/hr and the waiter is still at $30. The engineer can become a patent paralegal and make $70/hr. Etc, etc. What's the waiter at this time? Manager of Olive Garden?[/quote]
I'm in no way trying to take anything away from a good career and college, my issue is that it seems like we keep using engineering as our benchmark, and the entire field bores me to tears.
Also, you obviously haven't done enough food service, because with experience and the benefits that come from developing a regular clientele, the waiter can easily increase his wages to at least remain on par until the engineer hits the $40-$50 mark. Get into bartending and you can maintain that pace a bit longer still if you are good at what you do. I know bartenders who clear 6 figures after taxes.
A waiter and a engineer in training may each make $30/hr, but after a couple years the engineer is going to be at $50/hr and the waiter still at $30. After 15 yrs the engineer is going to be project manager making $60/hr and the waiter is still at $30. The engineer can become a patent paralegal and make $70/hr. Etc, etc. What's the waiter at this time? Manager of Olive Garden?[/quote]
I'm in no way trying to take anything away from a good career and college, my issue is that it seems like we keep using engineering as our benchmark, and the entire field bores me to tears.
Also, you obviously haven't done enough food service, because with experience and the benefits that come from developing a regular clientele, the waiter can easily increase his wages to at least remain on par until the engineer hits the $40-$50 mark. Get into bartending and you can maintain that pace a bit longer still if you are good at what you do. I know bartenders who clear 6 figures after taxes.
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GTzerO
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[quote name='contej85']
Also, you obviously haven't done enough food service, because with experience and the benefits that come from developing a regular clientele, the waiter can easily increase his wages to at least remain on par until the engineer hits the $40-$50 mark. Get into bartending and you can maintain that pace a bit longer still if you are good at what you do. I know bartenders who clear 6 figures after taxes.[/quote]
That's part of my point. You can't ask someone how to succeed doing something when they've devoted a lot of time doing something else. If I actually want to know how to make money without getting a degree, then these guys wouldn't be the best to ask.
Also, you obviously haven't done enough food service, because with experience and the benefits that come from developing a regular clientele, the waiter can easily increase his wages to at least remain on par until the engineer hits the $40-$50 mark. Get into bartending and you can maintain that pace a bit longer still if you are good at what you do. I know bartenders who clear 6 figures after taxes.[/quote]
That's part of my point. You can't ask someone how to succeed doing something when they've devoted a lot of time doing something else. If I actually want to know how to make money without getting a degree, then these guys wouldn't be the best to ask.
[quote name='dmaul1114']I don't think it's the communal aspect. It's the breadth of knowledge and critical thinking skills your forced to acquire if you go to a good school, study hard and make good grades (i.e. you actually try). You're really not going to get that outside of academia--it forces you to learn about stuff you wouldn't care to ever dig up on your own, and you're a better person for it IMO.[/QUOTE]
Right, but, as you say, motivation can't be imposed. So, the development of these skills isn't so much tied to college as it is related to a third quality which, unsurprisingly, makes the likelihood of college enrollment increase.
And that's my point. The college experience makes it easier to relate to people who have also had it (and, perhaps, those that haven't to a lesser extent), but does not necessarily imply any propensity toward personal "completeness" or what have you. Such a quality is really much to ethereal to pin down like that.
But yeah, this certainly isn't something people have in mind or even care about when making social decisions.
Right, but, as you say, motivation can't be imposed. So, the development of these skills isn't so much tied to college as it is related to a third quality which, unsurprisingly, makes the likelihood of college enrollment increase.
And that's my point. The college experience makes it easier to relate to people who have also had it (and, perhaps, those that haven't to a lesser extent), but does not necessarily imply any propensity toward personal "completeness" or what have you. Such a quality is really much to ethereal to pin down like that.
But yeah, this certainly isn't something people have in mind or even care about when making social decisions.
I wouldn't dispute that you can make a good living in food service if you're good at it and like it. That's true in food service and various trades.
Just a matter if you find that a fulfilling, or at least a tolerable, way to make a living. Some do and good for them. For me I need something intellectually stimulating where I can challenge myself and make a difference. Salary is a secondary concern, but that's fine as well as in my field.
Just a matter if you find that a fulfilling, or at least a tolerable, way to make a living. Some do and good for them. For me I need something intellectually stimulating where I can challenge myself and make a difference. Salary is a secondary concern, but that's fine as well as in my field.
[quote name='Magus8472']Right, but, as you say, motivation can't be imposed. So, the development of these skills isn't so much tied to college as it is related to a third quality which, unsurprisingly, makes the likelihood of college enrollment increase.
[/quote]
That's true, definitely a reciprocal relationship. Probably also plays into socialization as I don't have much interest in befriending people who don't share a love a knowledge and critical thinking--that they have degrees is just a consequence of their personality.
But at the same time, there are very motivated people who eschew college and just go straight to work and have successful careers. So I still think the college experience has a lot to do with it.
I agree. I wouldn't say people aren't "complete" without a college education. Just chances are they aren't the type of people I want to hang out with. That doesn't make them incomplete or just a lesser person--just makes them different and friendships are based on similarities.
[/quote]
That's true, definitely a reciprocal relationship. Probably also plays into socialization as I don't have much interest in befriending people who don't share a love a knowledge and critical thinking--that they have degrees is just a consequence of their personality.
But at the same time, there are very motivated people who eschew college and just go straight to work and have successful careers. So I still think the college experience has a lot to do with it.
I agree. I wouldn't say people aren't "complete" without a college education. Just chances are they aren't the type of people I want to hang out with. That doesn't make them incomplete or just a lesser person--just makes them different and friendships are based on similarities.
I could really care less about what I will be paid. I went to college and am studying mechanical engineering because that is what I enjoy. If someone enjoys waiting tables, I think that is what they should do. There are advantages and disadvantages to every career.
[quote name='GTzerO']What do you know, I have a love of knowledge and critical thinking, and being intellectually challenged, yet I have the distinct desire to not go to college. Too bad my favorite fields get me no money ( Psychology, Sociology, Anthropology ).[/QUOTE]
1. There are exceptions to everything. But I'd still say your knowledge will not be as broad if you don't go to college regardless of your burning desire for knowledge etc.
2. You can make good money in those fields, you just need advanced degrees. If you're willing to slog through a Ph D you can do pretty well.
I'm getting a Ph D in Criminology and Criminal Justice, starting salaries as an assistant professor are typically in the $55-70K range for the 9 month salary--$60-80K range if you get offered summer salary (typical in good programs for the first year or two) or get grant funding to pay it. Jobs in research firms, government agencies etc. can be in the same range or potentially higher if you went to a top grad school and did a good bit of research while there. Sociology is probably similar, Psychology is probably a bit higher and anthropology probably a bit lower if I had to guess.
But the bigger point is that if you love critical thinking, knowledge etc. and are truly interested in psychology, sociology and anthropology then go to college and study them not for the paycheck waiting at the end but because as you say you "love of knowledge and critical thinking, and being intellectually challenged." Don't focus on the ends all the time, often the means are an end in themselves. Go to college and study what you love because you have a passion for it, not just out of a capitalistic desire to make money. If money's the only goal then college is probably a waste of time.
It would also be wise to not post in threads like this trying to sound like you have a lot of life knowledge when you're apparently still in high school. Sorry to be harsh, just my main pet peeves of these forums--too many know it all high schoolers.
1. There are exceptions to everything. But I'd still say your knowledge will not be as broad if you don't go to college regardless of your burning desire for knowledge etc.
2. You can make good money in those fields, you just need advanced degrees. If you're willing to slog through a Ph D you can do pretty well.
I'm getting a Ph D in Criminology and Criminal Justice, starting salaries as an assistant professor are typically in the $55-70K range for the 9 month salary--$60-80K range if you get offered summer salary (typical in good programs for the first year or two) or get grant funding to pay it. Jobs in research firms, government agencies etc. can be in the same range or potentially higher if you went to a top grad school and did a good bit of research while there. Sociology is probably similar, Psychology is probably a bit higher and anthropology probably a bit lower if I had to guess.
But the bigger point is that if you love critical thinking, knowledge etc. and are truly interested in psychology, sociology and anthropology then go to college and study them not for the paycheck waiting at the end but because as you say you "love of knowledge and critical thinking, and being intellectually challenged." Don't focus on the ends all the time, often the means are an end in themselves. Go to college and study what you love because you have a passion for it, not just out of a capitalistic desire to make money. If money's the only goal then college is probably a waste of time.
It would also be wise to not post in threads like this trying to sound like you have a lot of life knowledge when you're apparently still in high school. Sorry to be harsh, just my main pet peeves of these forums--too many know it all high schoolers.
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petrieslastword
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[quote name='Koggit']Google says even servers at New York's top restaurants average $785/wk, or
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[quote name='contej85']The fallacy there is that is based upon what they claim, when in fact a large majority of most servers wages (tips) go unclaimed for tax purposes, and for all intents and purposes don't exist to google.[/QUOTE]
This wasn't taxable income, it was what the employees claimed to make to a third party that was collecting restaurant statistics (to sell to New York restaurants). A Maitre'D was quoted as saying he felt the number was a little low and that he'd estimate the actual average to be $900... but averages are always below what you'd expect them to be, because you're more likely to hear the above-average numbers since that's what people are willing to talk about. Just like you never hear of people who have IQs below 100, even though nearly half the world falls into that demographic.
It's definitely a blind leap to simply assume the data's inaccurate.
This wasn't taxable income, it was what the employees claimed to make to a third party that was collecting restaurant statistics (to sell to New York restaurants). A Maitre'D was quoted as saying he felt the number was a little low and that he'd estimate the actual average to be $900... but averages are always below what you'd expect them to be, because you're more likely to hear the above-average numbers since that's what people are willing to talk about. Just like you never hear of people who have IQs below 100, even though nearly half the world falls into that demographic.
It's definitely a blind leap to simply assume the data's inaccurate.
[quote name='GTzerO']Asking a bunch of people who are in college about the necessity of a college degree isn't going to get you the most accurate of answers to that question.[/quote]
Well I have been on both sides of the fence. I have to apply and pay for all of my schooling and have been forced to not go to school 2 and half out of the 5 years since I have been out of High School. Also I do not actually have a degree yet. I have done it both taken 18 credit hours in one semester, and worked for a little above min. wage for 35-50 hours a week. I will tell you I personally learned more about myself while going to school than working 3rd shift as a desk clerk at Super 8 (although it is close I do meet a lot of people, and read a lot).
So actually it would be better to talk to someone who has not gone to school/was in the military and then later went then someone who has only not been college.
Well I have been on both sides of the fence. I have to apply and pay for all of my schooling and have been forced to not go to school 2 and half out of the 5 years since I have been out of High School. Also I do not actually have a degree yet. I have done it both taken 18 credit hours in one semester, and worked for a little above min. wage for 35-50 hours a week. I will tell you I personally learned more about myself while going to school than working 3rd shift as a desk clerk at Super 8 (although it is close I do meet a lot of people, and read a lot).
So actually it would be better to talk to someone who has not gone to school/was in the military and then later went then someone who has only not been college.
[quote name='GTzerO']What do you know, I have a love of knowledge and critical thinking, and being intellectually challenged, yet I have the distinct desire to not go to college. Too bad my favorite fields get me no money ( Psychology, Sociology, Anthropology ).[/QUOTE]
You could make a lot of money in that field. My cousin with a sociology degree, worked for pentagon and worked at US embassy in several counties.
If you want to get into therapy earning money isnt a problem. You will be shock to find out how much a license therapist can make in an hour. It will take a long time to get a MFT
You will need advance degree but you can make as much as an engineer. Also you job is a lot less likely to get outsource in the future.
You could make a lot of money in that field. My cousin with a sociology degree, worked for pentagon and worked at US embassy in several counties.
If you want to get into therapy earning money isnt a problem. You will be shock to find out how much a license therapist can make in an hour. It will take a long time to get a MFT
You will need advance degree but you can make as much as an engineer. Also you job is a lot less likely to get outsource in the future.
[quote name='GTzerO']It's not so much how much money I make in the field, it's how much money I lose trying to break into it.
[/QUOTE]
You don't have to lose that much. Go to an instate school so you get cheaper tuition. Study your ass off and earn scholarships.
Graduate with a high GPA and do well on GRAs and you can get grad school offers with pay plus tuition remission. I've been paid to go to school all but my first year of grad school--making around $21 an hour currently, plus having my tuition paid for.
And sorry, know it all was a bit harsh and not really directed at you. But someone still in high school shouldn't be posting whether or not it's a good idea ot get a college degree--they should just be asking questions. Really no one less than 10 years out of high school should as they have the life perspective to say how things actually worked out for them with or without a degree. But that's the problem of posting this on CAG is there aren't all that many regular posters who are that old.
[/QUOTE]
You don't have to lose that much. Go to an instate school so you get cheaper tuition. Study your ass off and earn scholarships.
Graduate with a high GPA and do well on GRAs and you can get grad school offers with pay plus tuition remission. I've been paid to go to school all but my first year of grad school--making around $21 an hour currently, plus having my tuition paid for.
And sorry, know it all was a bit harsh and not really directed at you. But someone still in high school shouldn't be posting whether or not it's a good idea ot get a college degree--they should just be asking questions. Really no one less than 10 years out of high school should as they have the life perspective to say how things actually worked out for them with or without a degree. But that's the problem of posting this on CAG is there aren't all that many regular posters who are that old.
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petrieslastword
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[quote name='Koggit']This wasn't taxable income, it was what the employees claimed to make to a third party that was collecting restaurant statistics (to sell to New York restaurants). A Maitre'D was quoted as saying he felt the number was a little low and that he'd estimate the actual average to be $900... but averages are always below what you'd expect them to be, because you're more likely to hear the above-average numbers since that's what people are willing to talk about. Just like you never hear of people who have IQs below 100, even though nearly half the world falls into that demographic.
It's definitely a blind leap to simply assume the data's inaccurate.[/quote]
And you think they'd be honest and risk any sort of trouble over unclaimed wages? Also, without taking into account the number of hours most were working (most servers do it part time while they pursue other interests) those statistics have very little meaning anyway.
It's definitely a blind leap to simply assume the data's inaccurate.[/quote]
And you think they'd be honest and risk any sort of trouble over unclaimed wages? Also, without taking into account the number of hours most were working (most servers do it part time while they pursue other interests) those statistics have very little meaning anyway.
There's no way to ever get an accurate estimate of server's salaries.
You can definitely make good money, just a matter if you can stand the work. I did it for a while and hated it despite making decent money. I couldn't imagine slogging food around and dealing with asshole customers for a career. But others like it, so to each their own.
You can definitely make good money, just a matter if you can stand the work. I did it for a while and hated it despite making decent money. I couldn't imagine slogging food around and dealing with asshole customers for a career. But others like it, so to each their own.
petrieslastword
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[quote name='lordwow']Most waiters aren't FT because they don't generally get benefits like health and dental.[/quote]
Well, I have both those through my job as well, just have to find the right company I suppose.
Well, I have both those through my job as well, just have to find the right company I suppose.
petrieslastword
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[quote name='Koggit']Again: This was waiters at NY's top restaurants...[/quote]
Again, I live in NY and easily make that, and unless your statistics are more than just random numbers someone who was worried they may be audited claimed to have made, then I see serious flaws here.
Also, don't assume "top restaurants" are where the money is. The servers I know at The Olive Garden make more than those I know who work at finer dining establishments (I work at neither).
Again, I live in NY and easily make that, and unless your statistics are more than just random numbers someone who was worried they may be audited claimed to have made, then I see serious flaws here.
Also, don't assume "top restaurants" are where the money is. The servers I know at The Olive Garden make more than those I know who work at finer dining establishments (I work at neither).
Top, as is profit, clientele, traffic...?
I could easily see that if it was based on clientle. Large Parties or expensive menu, combined with disposable income, add standard practice of 15% gratuity, and you have a very nice amount of money in your pocket.
Also, cost of living.
I could easily see that if it was based on clientle. Large Parties or expensive menu, combined with disposable income, add standard practice of 15% gratuity, and you have a very nice amount of money in your pocket.
Also, cost of living.
I've just read snippets of this thread but my opinion is that I'll interview against someone without a degree any day of the week and feel just that much more confident about it. As a manager myself, when I've had to do hiring, seeing that someone either A)has a degree or B)is currently in college, its one positive to see before they even open their mouth for the interview. Now if they do have a degree but end up being an idiot it doesn't mean anything but when it comes to the working world, you need any edge you can get.
Where I intern at, we recently had a position open up for copywriting. Being the intern, I had to do some monkey work, and one thing I had to do was count up the resumes for EEOC purposes. While I went through all the different piles, ALL of the "interviewed" resumes had at least a bachelors degree (yes, I looked at the resumes. I want to know what I am up against). But hell, even if you have a degree, you HAVE to make yourself stand out.
bread's done