The myth of "Islamophobia" in America

[quote name='depascal22']I give up. You're a fucking moron.

Keep posting about every Islamic atrocity in your sad attempt to paint them as a violent society worthy of people's fears.[/QUOTE]

I really don't get why you guys bother arguing with him. It's killing the forum as nearly every thread that gets any activity is just you guys going in endless circles with him (and/or Bob) over and over on the same fucking arguments ad nauseum.

He never gives an inch, why waste the time and energy on him. I've been avoiding this forum lately as every thread is just Knoell/Bob vs. the world. Would be much better if people would throw them on ignore and be done with it. Especially since the cycle of pointless arguments always gets to this point of personal attacks that are going to end up getting people suspended and banned.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']I really don't get why you guys bother arguing with him. It's killing the forum as nearly every thread that gets any activity is just you guys going in endless circles with him (and/or Bob) over and over on the same fucking arguments ad nauseum.

He never gives an inch, why waste the time and energy on him. I've been avoiding as every thread is just Knoell/Bob vs. the world. Would be much better if people would throw them on ignore and be done with it. Especially since the cycle of pointless arguments always gets to this point of personal attacks.[/QUOTE]

Dude, if you have an issue, either take it up with the mods or leave. Alternatively, you can sit there and throw a temper tantrum about it. I mean, that's cool and all.

I just wish when people put people on ignore, they'd do it and STFU about it. You're a big man - you've ignored people who have a different outlook than you. Congrats. Now move on with your life.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I give up. You're a fucking moron.

Keep posting about every Islamic atrocity in your sad attempt to paint them as a violent society worthy of people's fears.[/QUOTE]

Keep believing that all religious extremists kill equally for the sake of being equal, because they are all equally disturbed. Is that equal enough?
 
[quote name='Knoell']Keep believing that all religious extremists kill equally for the sake of being equal, because they are all equally disturbed. Is that equal enough?[/QUOTE]

Knoell,

If depascal just posted "lol" in response to your post would you consider that an adequate rebuttal?
 
[quote name='Msut77']Knoell,

If depascal just posted "lol" in response to your post would you consider that an adequate rebuttal?[/QUOTE]

What is funny is that you guys still haven't given me extremists that are more active, and deadly, but move on to attack me personally.
 
[quote name='Knoell']What is funny is that you guys still haven't given me extremists that are more active, and deadly, but move on to attack me personally.[/QUOTE]
Well.

It's been 16 years, and I don't think Muslim extremists have quite caught up to Hutu (ethnicity, not religion - again, they're mostly Catholic) extremists in that time-frame.

But what, exactly, is the point? If we all said, "Okay. Muslim extremists have a higher body count than other extremists." What then? Is there a prize?

EDIT: Hell, tack on another 300,000 dead Hutus and Tutsis from the Burundi Civil War, which started a year before the Rwandan genocide and ended only a couple years back.

But... what's the god damn point?
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Well.

It's been 16 years, and I don't think Muslim extremists have quite caught up to Hutu (ethnicity, not religion - again, they're mostly Catholic) extremists in that time-frame.

But what, exactly, is the point? If we all said, "Okay. Muslim extremists have a higher body count than other extremists." What then? Is there a prize?[/QUOTE]

I thought we already settled this with a little help from Unclebob. If you want to talk genocide, then we can talk genocide.

The problem is not the body count although it is horrifying and disturbing, it is the activity of the extremists. They are consistently killing themselves and everyone around them each and every day. This is not to say they are the only ones doing it, but extremism in all religions is not as equal as everyone in this thread wants to believe it is.

Now if you are willing to concede that point, (I think someone already has, but alas they went on to add nonsense to that point) then I will stop, but I cannot stand to hear this nonsense that active extremism is equal in all religions, it is bs.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I thought we already settled this with a little help from Unclebob. If you want to talk genocide, then we can talk genocide.[/QUOTE]Not to my knowledge. But admittedly, I'm popping in here rather late, and have no idea why the fuck this is being discussed.

[quote name='Knoell'] The problem is not the body count although it is horrifying and disturbing, it is the activity of the extremists. They are consistently killing themselves and everyone around them each and every day.[/QUOTE]Just like the Hutu extremists in Rwanda. Just like during the Troubles in Ireland. Now, those things were Then and this is Now. Is that... is that the entire point, here? That at this particular juncture, there is a greater volume of violence carried out in the name of Islam (which is not the same thing as saying "there is more Islamic extremism than X or Y extremism) than anything else (Whether or not this is true, I could not say - do you count the Janjaweed, for example? They're Muslim, but they're more Arab-supremacists than anything else.)?

Because if so... so?

Jesus Christ, parenthesis ruin my train of thought, but fuck it.
 
No, THIS is bs:

[quote name='Knoell']...I would like you to show me another religion that is hijacked by extremists that is more deadly.[/QUOTE]

Terrorists perverted the religion. It is a minority of people who have perverted the religion, and committed horrible acts in the name of the perversion of the religion. This isn't that hard.

The religion hasn't been taken over by extremists. That's absolute bullshit.
 
[quote name='Knoell']What is funny is that you guys still haven't given me extremists that are more active, and deadly, but move on to attack me personally.[/QUOTE]

I don't feel like being a part of that "discussion", anyhoo (and this is like the 33rd time I've explained this to you) pointing out something you do all the time IS NOT ATTACKING YOU PERSONALLY.

Is anyone else allowed the right to declare themselves winner of an "argument" through the use of said three letters?
 
[quote name='IRHari']No, THIS is bs:



Terrorists perverted the religion. It is a minority of people who have perverted the religion, and committed horrible acts in the name of the perversion of the religion. This isn't that hard.

The religion hasn't been taken over by extremists. That's absolute bullshit.[/QUOTE]

lol what you just said is what I meant. Are you going to dispute that extremists hijack islam to expand their influence? That isnt saying that ALL of islam is hijacked but the extremists do use it.

Another pathetic attempt to circumvent fact. Im done with this thread, the facts are out there, day after day islamic extremists kill, kill, and kill but you guys would rather bury your heads in the sand under the guise that all of this killing is in proportion to all the other killing so it isnt a big deal, or out of the ordinary.
 
[quote name='IRHari']No, THIS is bs:



Terrorists perverted the religion. It is a minority of people who have perverted the religion, and committed horrible acts in the name of the perversion of the religion. This isn't that hard.

The religion hasn't been taken over by extremists. That's absolute bullshit.[/QUOTE]

Perverted? Have you read a line of the Qur'an? Let me offer a few to you:

"It is the same whether or not you forwarn them [the unbelievers], they will have no faith" (2:6).

"God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along" (2:15).

A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them (2:24).

They will be "rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection" (2:85).

"God's curse be upon the infidels!" (2:89).

"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits [them]" (2:90).

"God is the enemy of the unbelievers" (2:98).

"The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Christians and Jews], and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2:105).

"They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter" (2:114).

"Those to whom We [God] have given the Book, and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost" (2:122).

"[We] shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate" (2:126).

"The East and the West are God's. He guides whom He will to a straight path" (2:142).

"Do not say that those slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, but you are not aware of them" (2:154).

"But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved" (2:162).

"They shall sigh with remorse, but shall never come out of the Fire" (2:168).

"The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing" (2:172).

"Theirs shall be a woeful punishment" (2:175).

"How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism" (2:176).

"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. . . . f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers"(2:190–93).

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not" (2:216).

"They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith—if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of God, may hope for God's mercy" (2:217–18).

"God does not guide the evil-doers" (2:258).

"God does not guide the unbelievers" (2:264).

"The evil-doers shall have none to help them" (2:270).

"God gives guidance to whom He will" (2:272).

"Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge" (3:5).

"As for the unbelievers, neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them from God's judgment. They shall become fuel for the Fire" (3:10).

"Say to the unbelievers: ‘You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell—an evil resting place!'" (3:12).

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam. . . . He that denies God's revelations should know that swift is God's reckoning" (3:19).

"Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful—he that does this has nothing to hope for from God—except in self-defense" (3:28).

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" (3:118).

"If you have suffered a defeat, so did the enemy.We alternate these vicissitudes among mankind so that God may know the true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God does not love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and annihilate the infidels" (3:140).

"Believers, if you yield to the infidels they will drag you back to unbelief and you will return headlong to perdition. . . .We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire shall be their home" (3:149-51).

"Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle: ‘Had they stayed with us they would not have died, nor would they have been killed.' God will cause them to regret their words. . . . If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, God's forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass" (3:156).

"Never think that those who were slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, and well provided for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those they left behind, who have not yet joined them, have nothing to fear or to regret; rejoicing in God's grace and bounty. God will not deny the faithful their reward" (3:169).

"Let not the unbelievers think that We prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them" (3:178).

"Those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain: I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a reward from God; God holds the richest recompense. Do not be deceived by the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is brief. Hell shall be their home, a dismal resting place" (3:195–96).

"God has cursed them in their unbelief" (4:46).

"God will not forgive those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is guilty of a heinous sin. . . . Consider those to whom a portion of the Scriptures was given. They believe in idols and false gods and say of the infidels: ‘These are better guided than the believers'" (4:50–51).

"Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise" (4:55–56).

"Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a pastime" (5:57).

"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. We have stirred among them enmity and hatred, which will endure till the Day of Resurrection" (5:65).

"God does not guide the unbelievers" (5:67).

"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. But do not grieve for the unbelievers" (5:69).

"You see many among them making friends with unbelievers. Evil is that to which their souls prompt them. They have incurred the wrath of God and shall endure eternal torment. . . .You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection to them are those who say: ‘We are Christians'" (5:80–82).

"[T]hose that disbelieve and deny Our revelations shall become the inmates of Hell" (5:86).

"[T]hey deny the truth when it is declared to them: but they shall learn the consequences of their scorn" (6:5).

"We had made them more powerful in the land than yourselves [the Meccans], sent down for them abundant water from the sky and gave them rivers that rolled at their feet. Yet because they sinned We destroyed them all and raised up other generations after them. If We sent down to you a Book inscribed on real parchment and they touched it with their own hands, the unbelievers would still assert: ‘This is but plain sorcery.' They ask: ‘Why has no angel been sent down to him [Muhammad]?' If We had sent down an angel, their fate would have been sealed and they would have never been reprieved" (6:5–8).

"Who is more wicked than the man who invents falsehoods about God or denies His revelations?" (6:21).

"Some of them listen to you. But We have cast veils over their hearts and made them hard of hearing lest they understand your words. They will believe in none of Our signs, even if they see them one and all. When they come to argue with you the unbelievers say: ‘This is nothing but old fictitious tales.' They forbid it and depart from it. They ruin none but themselves, though they do not perceive it. If you could see them when they are set before the Fire! They will say: ‘Would that we could return! Then we would not deny the revelations of our Lord and would be true believers' 6:23–27).

"But if they were sent back, they would return to that which they have been forbidden. They are liars all" (6:29).

"Had God pleased He would have given them guidance, one and all" (6:35).

"Deaf and dumb are those that deny Our revelations: they blunder about in darkness. God confounds whom He will, and guides to a straight path whom He pleases." (6:39)

"[T]heir hearts were hardened, and Satan made their deeds seem fair to them. And when they had clean forgotten Our admonition We granted them all that they desired; but just as they were rejoicing in what they were given, We suddenly smote them and they were plunged into utter despair. Thus were the evil-doers annihilated. Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe!" (6:43–45).

"[T]hose that deny Our revelations shall be punished for their misdeeds" (6:49).

"Such are those that are damned by their own sins. They shall drink scalding water and be sternly punished for their unbelief" (6:70).

"Could you but see the wrongdoers when death overwhelms them! With hands outstretched, the angels will say: ‘Yield up your souls. You shall be rewarded with the scourge of shame this day, for you have said of God what is untrue and scorned His revelations" (6:93).

"Avoid the pagans. Had God pleased, they would not have worshipped idols. . . . We will turn away their hearts and eyes from the Truth since they refused to believe in it at first. We will let them blunder about in their wrongdoing. If We sent the angels down to them, and caused the dead to speak to them, . . . and ranged all things in front of them, they would still not believe, unless God willed otherwise. . . . Thus have We assigned for every prophet an enemy: the devils among men and jinn, who inspire each other with vain and varnished falsehoods. But had your Lord pleased, they would not have done so. Therefore leave them to their own inventions, so that the hearts of those who have no faith in the life to come may be inclined to what they say and, being pleased, persist in their sinful ways" (6:107–12).

"The devils will teach their votaries to argue with you. If you obey them you shall yourselves become idolaters. . . . God will humiliate the transgressors and mete out to them a grievous punishment for their scheming" (6:121–25).

"If God wills to guide a man, He opens his bosom to Islam. But if he pleases to confound him, He makes his bosom small and narrow as though he were climbing up to heaven. Thus shall God lay the scourge on the unbelievers" (6:125).


The link between Islam and Muslim violence is made so clear here that to deny otherwise is to lie to yourself.
 
Have you ever read any of the old testament? God was vengeful as hell (heh).

It's ridiculous to compare current muslim extremists with religious extremists of the past. Crusaders killed plenty of jews and muslims during the crusades. Of course they aren't active now (though I think some people here in the U.S.would like a new crusade) but that isn't because they just decided they were wrong and gave it up.

The governments of many muslim centric countries do little stop stop extremism which allows it to spread. The governments of most christian centric countries would on the other hand probably try to stop it. Some of this is because those governments have more of a handle on their population, while many middle eastern governments are unable to fight extremism.

Don't think there aren't groups of extremist christians who would love the go on a *insert non-christian group* killing spree in the U.S.. It's simply harder for them because our police and government are actually effective enough to stop them.
 
[quote name='Clak']Have you ever read any of the old testament? God was vengeful as hell (heh).

It's ridiculous to compare current muslim extremists with religious extremists of the past. Crusaders killed plenty of jews and muslims during the crusades. Of course they aren't active now (though I think some people here in the U.S.would like a new crusade) but that isn't because they just decided they were wrong and gave it up.

The governments of many muslim centric countries do little stop stop extremism which allows it to spread. The governments of most christian centric countries would on the other hand probably try to stop it. Some of this is because those governments have more of a handle on their population, while many middle eastern governments are unable to fight extremism.

Don't think there aren't groups of extremist christians who would love the go on a *insert non-christian group* killing spree in the U.S.. It's simply harder for them because our police and government are actually effective enough to stop them.[/QUOTE]

Who's arguing that the OT isn't violent? A considerable amount of the Qur'an is stolen from the Bible anyways.

We're talking about the source of religious violence here, and you inadvertently point this out. These texts have not changed at all. Religion becomes diluted from secularism through science and reason, wholly outside forces.

Tolerance of the faith is what lets it, and therefore violence, spread. It's the fear of being called Islamophobic that silences the otherwise-intelligent (sometimes) liberal, snuffing the noise of criticism.
 
rabbit, have you read a line of the Old Testament? Both religions feature alot of hate for non-believers i.e. infidels.

EDIT -- So you admit that Christians have the same violence in their texts but you say that Muslims fundamentalists are better at silencing the liberal. That's interesting. Does that equate with the fundamentalist Christians or Catholics that call for denying of Communion to politicians that vote for abortion? The liberal voice has been silenced in the Christian Church but that's OK because we're all atheists right?
 
Rabbit, your posts on Islam are so amazingly stupid, that it shows nothing more than the ability to copy and paste, while making it abundantly clear you choose not to use your brain to try and analyze anything. You're certainly entitled to regurgitate twisted talking points you've heard, in an effort to try and deceive, but I think to a lot of people it gives you even less credibility.

Seriously man, get a hobby where you can actually enjoy the topic, use your brain, burn off some creative energies. It's kind of amazing that someone can be so obsessed with a topic, yet know so little.

You have the buzzwords down though, I'll give you that.
 
[quote name='Afflicted']funniest thing imo...

they have separate sections for homosexual hate crime and bisexual hate crime... just the idea that there's hate crime specific to bisexuals...[/QUOTE]

it isn't because someone goes out thinking "I'm going to commit a hate crime against a bi-sexual person tonight" it's because the lawyer for the bi person (or in the case of a purely criminal trial as opposed to a civil action) or the prosecutor discovered that the bi person was indeed bi and tacked on the hate crime to increase sentencing in the advent of a guilty verdict (criminal) or finding of liability (civil trial).

What's even worse is that there's even a notion of hate crimes. I'm white, if I stab a white guy, I get three years, but if I stab a black guy I get five years. Yeah, that makes sense!
 
[quote name='nasum']
What's even worse is that there's even a notion of hate crimes. I'm white, if I stab a white guy, I get three years, but if I stab a black guy I get five years. Yeah, that makes sense![/QUOTE]

That's not how it works. They prosecutor would have to prove that the motive for the stabbing was racial to get the extra hate crime penalty.

it's not a mandatory add on for inter racial crime, or crimes with a gay victim etc. It has to be proven that the motive was racism etc. Which is often hard to prove.
 
so how was it proven that the motive for the crime was bisexuality?

easier than you think to "prove" when you just have to mention that there's a protected class involved.
 
[quote name='nasum']so how was it proven that the motive for the crime was bisexuality?

easier than you think to "prove" when you just have to mention that there's a protected class involved.[/QUOTE]

Have to have some evidence that points to that motive. Witness who heard the perpetrator yell a gay slur (which still get tossed at bi-sexuals) before the attack. Writings by the perpetrator expressing hate for gays (bis are just as bad as gays to homophobes) and plans to attack gays/bis etc.

But it's not easy to prove. I've asked prosecutors about it. It's something they say they usually don't bother charging unless clear evidence like the above falls in their lap.
 
It's still silly. I've heard individuals yell slurs at people that don't even apply. If someone yells "I'm going to beat the **** out of your mother ****ing gay ass." to someone who isn't homosexual or bisexual, would you still consider that a hate crime?

It would just make so much more sense to have the punishment fit the crime than to create "thought crimes" where we attempt to determine what was going through someone's head at that exact moment.
 
a hate crime is an aggravator/additional charge when it is demonstrably provable that the victim was selected for their status such that if they did not fit that status, they would not have been made a victim.

If you read up on cases where hate crimes are applied, you'd understand that it's more than the flippant "thought police" treatment it's often given.

By the way, forgive me for using "you'd understand," because I don't truly believe that to be the case.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']It would just make so much more sense to have the punishment fit the crime than to create "thought crimes" where we attempt to determine what was going through someone's head at that exact moment.[/QUOTE]

You kind of need to figure out what is going on in the person's head. There's a big difference between negligence and willful, on which punishment is dependent.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']a hate crime is an aggravator/additional charge when it is demonstrably provable that the victim was selected for their status such that if they did not fit that status, they would not have been made a victim.

If you read up on cases where hate crimes are applied, you'd understand that it's more than the flippant "thought police" treatment it's often given.
.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='IRHari']You kind of need to figure out what is going on in the person's head. There's a big difference between negligence and willful, on which punishment is dependent.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. It's not thought police, and it's hardly the only instance where motive has to be proven to get a higher charge/punishment.

Hate crime penalties are designed to give an extra deterrent for crimes that are motivated by hate at minorities as such crimes send a message to those whole minority populations in the area that they are not safe, where as a random crime does not send any message to any certain segment of the population.
 
http://gawker.com/5628631/mosque-protesters-now-pointing-old-rented-missiles-at-park51

500x_gzmosquemissile.jpg
 
[quote name='Marty Peretz']But, frankly, Muslim life is cheap, most notably to Muslims. And among those Muslims led by the Imam Rauf there is hardly one who has raised a fuss about the routine and random bloodshed that defines their brotherhood. So, yes, I wonder whether I need honor these people and pretend that they are worthy of the privileges of the First Amendment which I have in my gut the sense that they will abuse.[/QUOTE]

Stay classy New Republic.

Now, since the above might not have offended everyone, let me change it so we can get some liberal AND conservative butthurt:

But, frankly, Jewish life is cheap, most notably to Jews. And among those Jews led by the Rabbis there is hardly one who has raised a fuss about the routine and random bloodshed that defines their brotherhood. So, yes, I wonder whether I need honor these people and pretend that they are worthy of the privileges of the First Amendment which I have in my gut the sense that they will abuse.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Stay classy New Republic.

Now, since the above might not have offended everyone, let me change it so we can get some liberal AND conservative butthurt:[/QUOTE]

Still trying to equalize islamic extremism with any other religion huh? You are too funny.
 
A) Make the unreasonable demand that every Muslim in existence personally tell you that they don't support terrorism.

B) Ignore any who do.

C) Repeat.
 
I don't really see Catholics & Catholic groups at the forefront of denouncing pedophile priests and the children they abuse. What I see is the Catholic groups belly-aching about anti-Catholic sentiment when stats show that there hasn't been significant backlash against Catholics.
 
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I just posted this in the mosque thread. Not saying that Catholics are perfect by any stretch, but they do seem to take a more mature look at other religions, at least their leaders anyway.
 
[quote name='depascal22']They should change the name of that website to angrywhitementhathatechange.com.[/QUOTE]

they want change....

r13939863.jpg
 
314396590_39cbfb456c.jpg


We are such islamiphobes when we complain about 1 mosque that is around the vicinity of an major attack that killed alot of people. We are so intolerant. :roll::roll::roll:
 
Knoell should just ignore the rabid opposition to mosques at staten island, murfreesboro tennessee, socal, etc.

Will you concede that opposition to these non-ground zero mosques are based purely on islamophobia?
 
[quote name='IRHari']Knoell should just ignore the rabid opposition to mosques at staten island, murfreesboro tennessee, socal, etc.

Will you concede that opposition to these non-ground zero mosques are based purely on islamophobia?[/QUOTE]

I haven't heard or read anything about those mosques besides the equipment has been set on fire, but I do not believe all opposition to a mosque being built is islamophobia, no. From what I do hear is that the opposition to those mosques is minor at best, not rabid. (I am also curious why you stopped at etc, why not provide a list of them all ;) ) That is your guy's problem is you try to boil EVERYTHING down to "is it racism or not", "is it bigotry or not", or "is it intolerance or not". If you want to take an individual and do that its fine I guess, but to blanket everyone with that theory is discrimination in and of itself. Why are you so dead set to prove X amount of americans are "islamophobic"?

Protests occur all over the United States and the world, and they do not always represent the radical end of the movement. People in California protest education cuts, does that mean they are all pro government spending? People protest Wal-mart does that mean they are all anti private industry? People protest the wars does that mean they are anti military? No, stop blanketing people with a single opinion.
 
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I don't have the desire to follow your map image in 3-4 separate threads with my same response from the other, so in this one, I'll just quote polls and articles:

"More than 4 in 10 Americans say they have an unfavorable view of Muslims"

"More than 6 in 10 say they do not personally know any Muslim Americans. And these people are more likely than those who personally know a practicing Muslin to say they have a negative opinion of Islam. Indeed, among those who personally know any Muslim Americans, a majority have a favorable view, the poll found." (Translated, I don't like em. Do you know any? No, but I don't like em)

"Most, 55 percent, say that a majority of Muslims in this country are “patriotic Americans who believe in American values.” But that still leaves a significant minority that either say Muslim Americans do not believe in American values (25 percent) or expressed no opinion (21 percent)."

"At the same time, 55 percent say they would support a Muslim proposal to build a community center and place of worship near their own home." (55%? So 45% either would oppose something as benign as building a house of worship, or have no opinion on it?)

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/...any-americans-have-suspicious-views-of-islam/


"Twenty-eight percent of voters do not believe Muslims should be eligible to sit on the U.S. Supreme Court. Nearly one-third of the country thinks adherents of Islam should be barred from running for President — a slightly higher percentage than the 24% who mistakenly believe the current occupant of the Oval Office is himself a Muslim.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2011799,00.html

So if people don't know any Muslims, but don't like them, if only about half of the population would support a mosque being built in their area, if a third of the country doesn't think a Muslim should even be allowed to be President, tell me what good it is to have 1 mosque or 1 million in the US?
 
[quote name='berzirk']

"More than 4 in 10 Americans say they have an unfavorable view of Muslims"

2 in 10 Americans say they have an unfavorable view of Catholics. Oh noes, we must be intolerant bastards.

3 in 10 Americans say they have an unfavorable view of Mormans. Oh noes, we must be intolerant bastards.

Stop and think that people of religion can sometimes be ignorant of other religions, they see them as following the wrong path. But lets just assume they just really hate muslims, its easier that way.

"More than 6 in 10 say they do not personally know any Muslim Americans. And these people are more likely than those who personally know a practicing Muslin to say they have a negative opinion of Islam. Indeed, among those who personally know any Muslim Americans, a majority have a favorable view, the poll found." (Translated, I don't like em. Do you know any? No, but I don't like em)

The question asks if you are favorable, that could mean many things but lets just assume it means you really just hate them.

"Most, 55 percent, say that a majority of Muslims in this country are “patriotic Americans who believe in American values.” But that still leaves a significant minority that either say Muslim Americans do not believe in American values (25 percent) or expressed no opinion (21 percent)."

Are you saying all Muslims believe are patriotic and believe in American values? Not sure what you want from that question, I don't think all Americans are patriotic or believe in American values period. I guess I am intolerant of Americans. Despascal you can add Americans to my "who I hate" list.



"At the same time, 55 percent say they would support a Muslim proposal to build a community center and place of worship near their own home." (55%? So 45% either would oppose something as benign as building a house of worship, or have no opinion on it?)

That means 35% would oppose it. So most Americans are islamophobic then? What?



"Twenty-eight percent of voters do not believe Muslims should be eligible to sit on the U.S. Supreme Court. Nearly one-third of the country thinks adherents of Islam should be barred from running for President — a slightly higher percentage than the 24% who mistakenly believe the current occupant of the Oval Office is himself a Muslim.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2011799,00.html

So if people don't know any Muslims, but don't like them, if only about half of the population would support a mosque being built in their area, if a third of the country doesn't think a Muslim should even be allowed to be President, tell me what good it is to have 1 mosque or 1 million in the US?[/QUOTE]

Bah the rest of those are ridiculous and deal with more complex underlying clashes of culture, values, etc.

I wouldn't support anyone for president until I was sure of his values does that make me a bad person? They vet supreme court justices for any bias in their views as well, they are monsters as well huh?
 
[quote name='Knoell']Bah the rest of those are ridiculous and deal with more complex underlying clashes of culture, values, etc.

I wouldn't support anyone for president until I was sure of his values does that make me a bad person? They vet supreme court justices for any bias in their views as well, they are monsters as well huh?[/QUOTE]

Dazzling. You've now resorted to arguing against math. Good day sir. Don't have the time, don't have the desire. As you were.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Dazzling. You've now resorted to arguing against math. Good day sir. Don't have the time, don't have the desire. As you were.[/QUOTE]

Arguing against math? even if your math was 100% truth with no variations, its not even close to the majority of americans being islamophobic. Compare that with the same set of questions in which 61% of Americans are AGAINST the ground zero mosque, and how do you explain the difference?

Learn to understand polls a little better. Good day though.
 
What are the reasons for the 'minor' opposition? I'm hearing 'sharia law' thrown around a lot, as if they know that all these new mosques cropping up are going to try to impose this on other americans.
 
Alright Knoell, tell us what other reasons people have for not wanting a Mosque built. This is assuming the building meets codes and any other regulations.
 
I have already stated the reasons many, many, many times. You guys seem to disagree with them so there is no point.

All I am saying is you cannot revert back to bigotry simply because you dislike the reasons on the table. Someone can say they don't like that guy over there because of his mustache. Now although I do not think that is a very good reason for not liking the guy, it does not mean they are racist because he is a minority.

Same goes for war protestors. I can dislike what they are protesting about but it does not mean I can generalize them into a bunch of pothead hippies saying "peace".

Same goes for protestors of wal mart. I can dislike why they are protesting but that does not mean I can corral them all into anti corporatism.

Same goes for protestors of the mosque. I can dislike what they are protesting, and think that their reasons don't make sense, but I cannot make bigots out of them simply because I disagree with their reasoning.

Doing such things is discrimination in and of itself.
 
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