The RPG thread has reached level 2!

[quote name='Zmonkay']Yeah, I have the P3 guide, but since i doesn't cover the changes in FES, it's fairly useless. Guess it's time to bust out the "set a laptop with a gamefaqs guide next to me while playing" strategy...

Does everything you do take "time" in game. I see the S-Link guide says to do things fairly specifically, but never mentions Tartarus, going to shops, etc. Maybe it'll all make sense once I start playing.[/QUOTE]

Ya the whole time thing does make a lot more sense once you start playing and it really isn't very difficult or complicated, I easily beat P3 without a guide and I really don't think I missed all that much.

If you want the most basic explanation I can give for the "time" system in P3 it is that it isn't in real-time it is in block time; so when you do a certain action, like hang out with someone after school for instance, that will take up the "After School" block of time for that day... and doing stuff like going to shops or running around doesn't use any blocks so there really all you do is pick the actions you want to do during a day and they play out, actual time isn't really ever a factor in the game... except that some of the dungeons have requirements that you have to finish by a certain date... but the game gives you so much time to do them that I never felt pressed at all to get where I needed to in the dungeons.

But ya I guess even that simple explanation was still kind of long, lol. It's simple once you start playing though.
 
I pray that Persona 5 will not be a PSP game.

I really like the battles in Eternal Sonata, like how it evolves over the course of the game and how each character is different in they way you control them and stuff. But DAMN this story gets worse and worse. Seriously thinking about just skipping all these cutscenes.
 
[quote name='TomJones4']The more I play Dragon Age the more it seems like offline wow.[/QUOTE]

...just way better. ;)

fuck the Broodmother. Any tips on whoopin this bad bitch?
 
[quote name='Mr. Anderson']...just way better. ;)

fuck the Broodmother. Any tips on whoopin this bad bitch?
[/QUOTE]

The story is awesome, but I'm kinda regretting picking a mage class. Is there anyway I can respec my class?
 
[quote name='Zmonkay']Yeah, I have the P3 guide, but since i doesn't cover the changes in FES, it's fairly useless. Guess it's time to bust out the "set a laptop with a gamefaqs guide next to me while playing" strategy...
[/QUOTE]

The thing is, Persona 3 (and 4) is all about choosing who to talk to, which S Links to upgrade, playing around with the Fusions, etc. The plot and characters (and voice acting, mostly) are all great, and the simulation part is what makes it unique compared to most other JRPGs. The dungeon-crawling aspect (Tartarus) is actually pretty terrible, IMO, though better in P4.

So, if you use a guide to tell you exactly who to talk to on which days, I'm not sure where you'll be able to have any fun playing this game. I don't think it will come from the Tartarus runs. Overall, I think you'll be much happier just figuring out the S Links on your own.

Just one man's opinion.
 
[quote name='Backlash']So, if you use a guide to tell you exactly who to talk to on which days, I'm not sure where you'll be able to have any fun playing this game. I don't think it will come from the Tartarus runs. Overall, I think you'll be much happier just figuring out the S Links on your own.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this. Pursuing social links because you genuinely like and are interested in that person, not because you planned out the stat increases in advance working from an FAQ, gives you a sense of ownership in the story and in your player character. To each their own, but it seems a shame to spoil this genuine bit of "role playing." :)
 
[quote name='TomJones4']The story is awesome, but I'm kinda regretting picking a mage class. Is there anyway I can respec my class?[/QUOTE]

Not without restarting. You just have to rely on your party members for support.
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']I agree with this. Pursuing social links because you genuinely like and are interested in that person, not because you planned out the stat increases in advance working from an FAQ, gives you a sense of ownership in the story and in your player character. To each their own, but it seems a shame to spoil this genuine bit of "role playing." :)[/QUOTE]

I totally agree. I played the game for about 40 hours without a guide, then I maxed out a few social links with the guide. It felt too much like work and just button pushing. It took every ounce of fun out of the game. I really couldn't remember the s. links faces or what they were about, just that I maxed out there stats.
Although I must admit, the guide is great for keeping a schedule for knowing which s. links are available on what days. If you use a guide as that, for reference than it is great, just to let it spoil the story of the social links.
 
[quote name='SpecTrE3353']I am playing Dragon Age for the PC. About 20 hours in now and honestly I am a little bit disappointed so far. I have always loved a lot of Bioware RPG's of this style (KotOR, BG2, Fallout 2, Mass Effect) but how much longer can they really keep releasing what is basically the same game over and over before it stops being fun? There is virtually nothing unique or new about Dragon Age compared to previous games. I would almost say in some ways that it is a step back. For example:

- The graphics are awful.
- A lot of the character animations are terrible and look like they just came straight from NWN. If Valve could nearly perfect this sort of stuff five years ago, how come Bioware can't do it now?
- Every dungeon feels like it's stretched about five times longer than it needs to be with fight after fight after fight just to extend the length of the quest.
- The difficulty balance is totally out of whack. One second you are raping everything you see on Normal difficulty and two fights into the same zone you are getting your ass handed to you on Easy.
- Some of the quests are retarded. "Go click on 5 doors in town". Oh boy, thats a really fun one.

I am enjoying the game thanks to some of the fights still being fun and a good story/characters but so far I have to say I'm dissapointed. I am looking forward much more to Mass Effect where we can actually play in a unique universe and with a better combat system.[/QUOTE]

I just finished up Dragon Age, and while I was not disappointed with the experience, I do agree with a lot of the points made in this post.

Bioware's Star Wars: KOTOR is one of my personal favorite RPG's if not my all time favorite. At the time of release, the combat was ground breaking - who knew meshing real-time action with turn based commands could be so much fun? Also, choosing which characters are included in your party, being able to interact directly with them and having your actions in the world dictate their disposition towards you made the game entirely more interesting and immersive.

As previously mentioned, Bioware took this successful platform for story telling and essentially regurgitated it with entries such as KOTOR 2, Jade Empire and most recently Dragon Age, keeping the platform for the most part unchanged. I enjoyed my time spent with all of these games including Mass Effect and Fallout 3, but the experience is beginning to wear on me and become a little stale. Therefore, I too am beginning to wonder how much longer Bioware will go before introducing more significant changes to their RPG platform.

I also agree that the majority of the dungeons feel like they are stretched farther then they need to, causing area's to grow quite repetitive, and the difficulty can be pretty unforgiving, forcing you to save after even the smallest of skirmishes.

With that said, these issues do not tarnish the wonderful experience that is to be had with Dragon Age.


[quote name='TomJones4']The story is awesome, but I'm kinda regretting picking a mage class. Is there anyway I can respec my class?[/QUOTE]


There has been an unofficial patch released for the PC version. I recently dl'ed it and it worked flawlessly. You can find it here.
 
Thanks for all the input about P3. I think I'll do what has been suggested, and just play, using a guide sparingly as a reference for what is available what days. I can always follow the guide more strictly on a NG+ run if I ever get the chance.

And Dragon Age:

Mr. Anderson: for that fight, I had
Wynn, Morrigan, Shale, and myself as a sword and board warrior. Wynn as all about healing, and Morrigan was split between crowd control (sleep, cone of cold, etc) on the minions, and direct damage on brood mother. PC and Shale focused on taking out the tenticles first (while I controlled morrigan and wynn to keep them away from the fucking things), then whenever the tentacles were down they charged brood mother directly. Wasn't hard so much as tedious. I actually had a much harder time with the fucking spider boss a little before that

TomJones4: I'm actually the opposite, u get plenty of tanks in the game, but only 2 mages (2 rogues too, but rogues suck ass in this game imho). Mages are rediculously overpowered, so unless u don't like how easy being a mage makes the game, I'd stick with it, because once you learn some higher level spells, crowd control and direct damage lets u fly through battles, even when needing to consider friendly fire from most high level spells.
 
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[quote name='Backlash']So, if you use a guide to tell you exactly who to talk to on which days, I'm not sure where you'll be able to have any fun playing this game. I don't think it will come from the Tartarus runs. Overall, I think you'll be much happier just figuring out the S Links on your own.

Just one man's opinion.[/QUOTE]
I'd rather use a guide because I wanted to explore people's stories. It's not fun when you reach the end of the game and an S Link leaves you on a cliffhanger and then you have to restart the entire game to do it later.

I don't like how an S Link levels up based on which answer you choose, that's not fun to me.

And if I want to know everyone's story, I have to visit everyone in a certain time frame. So I'm cool with it.

Another man's opinion.
 
[quote name='Backlash']The thing is, Persona 3 (and 4) is all about choosing who to talk to, which S Links to upgrade, playing around with the Fusions, etc. The plot and characters (and voice acting, mostly) are all great, and the simulation part is what makes it unique compared to most other JRPGs. The dungeon-crawling aspect (Tartarus) is actually pretty terrible, IMO, though better in P4.

So, if you use a guide to tell you exactly who to talk to on which days, I'm not sure where you'll be able to have any fun playing this game. I don't think it will come from the Tartarus runs. Overall, I think you'll be much happier just figuring out the S Links on your own.

Just one man's opinion.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you. One of the points, I believe anyway, of Persona 3 and 4 is that you're not really supposed to be able to do all the S links in one playthrough. Much like real life you have to choose with who and how you spend your time.
 
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Started Radiata Stories today. I don't see why some people here hate on it. It's quirky (in a good way, IMO) and relatively simple (at least so far - I'm a little over two hours in), but it's hardly bad. More like "average".
 
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[quote name='Backlash']
So, if you use a guide to tell you exactly who to talk to on which days, I'm not sure where you'll be able to have any fun playing this game. I don't think it will come from the Tartarus runs. Overall, I think you'll be much happier just figuring out the S Links on your own.

Just one man's opinion.[/QUOTE]

When I talked about a guide for the S Links, I was thinking about it when I ran through FES. I had already beaten P3, but I wanted to do the S links for completeness and get to the Answer.
 
well, I started using the guide, but I'm already thinking I'm not going to be able to follow it to the letter (and you need to follow it perfectly by my understanding) cuz I only have 2 days to find an Angel card (which can supposedly be found in the first level of the tower, but I've yet to see anything other than pixies and a couple A-somethings), and my team is all tired from raiding tarturus looking for the damned thing and levelig up to fuse a Neko-something. So unless they recover by tomorrow night, it's a no go. Guess it's time to fly by the seat of my pants!

Only problem I have with the system is a decent amount of it seams fairly random, and if u didn't have a guide, u'd miss a ton of stuff. Ah well, I guss that's what NG+ is for, eh? haha. Otherwise, loving it so far.
 
Add 1 more vote for "Persona S-links are no fun with a guide."

[quote name='kainzero']I'd rather use a guide because I wanted to explore people's stories. It's not fun when you reach the end of the game and an S Link leaves you on a cliffhanger and then you have to restart the entire game to do it later.[/QUOTE]
This is why youtube was invented.
 
Any Planescape vets? I'm about to install but I'm wondering if there aren't any must have mods for it, like widescreen support or something.
 
[quote name='blueshinra']Started Radiata Stories today. I don't see why some people here hate on it. It's quirky (in a good way, IMO) and relatively simple (at least so far - I'm a little over two hours in), but it's hardly bad. More like "average".[/QUOTE]

The music... oh god, the horror...
 
[quote name='Flak']Any Planescape vets? I'm about to install but I'm wondering if there aren't any must have mods for it, like widescreen support or something.[/QUOTE]


The Crotch would know. He mentioned something about them not long ago I believe.
 
Wow, a lot of people are anti-guide for P3. IMO it was still challenging and took nothing away from the experience. In fact I would say it added since it was easier to flesh out more of the characters. I don't normally buy guides anyways so I can understand being "put off" on using one.
 
I am anti-guide for no RPG!!

Im too old to figure stuff out on my own!!

and dont have the free time to miss silly things

guides FTW! u damn well know Ima be using one for FF13
 
I think there needs to be Reviews for Strategy Guides. Most of them are terribly worded, summarized and are jumbled messes. The only part those guides you pay for have over ones you see on Gamefaqs are pictures. And honestly, the ones on Gamefaqs help out a lot more and are a lot more detailed. But I think I will get the one for FFXIII.
 
[quote name='JEKKI']I am anti-guide for no RPG!!

Im too old to figure stuff out on my own!!

and dont have the free time to miss silly things

guides FTW! u damn well know Ima be using one for FF13[/QUOTE]

Damn right! I don't have anywhere near the time I used to, so if I can see "all there is to see" with a guide, I play with one. Then on a replay (if I ever get around to it), I generally play without, as I've already seen all the small, inconsequential things. Hell, I played Abyss with a guide that was nearly step by step handholding. saw ~95% of the game, a LARGE chunk of which I would have missed without the guide (who the hell would know to talk to random people 3 towns ago after a random event that has nothing to do with that town...)

[quote name='KingBroly']I think there needs to be Reviews for Strategy Guides. Most of them are terribly worded, summarized and are jumbled messes. The only part those guides you pay for have over ones you see on Gamefaqs are pictures. And honestly, the ones on Gamefaqs help out a lot more and are a lot more detailed. But I think I will get the one for FFXIII.[/QUOTE]

True. My friend still hasn't forgive the FFXII guide for failing to tell him which chests not to open.
 
[quote name='JEKKI']I am anti-guide for no RPG!!

Im too old to figure stuff out on my own!!

and dont have the free time to miss silly things

guides FTW! u damn well know Ima be using one for FF13[/QUOTE]
I'm with Jekki on this. Alot of times RPGs are long as fuck and chances are I'll only play through them once(With a few exceptions). So I have no problem using guides to help me out.

[quote name='KingBroly']I think there needs to be Reviews for Strategy Guides. Most of them are terribly worded, summarized and are jumbled messes. The only part those guides you pay for have over ones you see on Gamefaqs are pictures. And honestly, the ones on Gamefaqs help out a lot more and are a lot more detailed. But I think I will get the one for FFXIII.[/QUOTE]
Never really had much problem with any guide I own. The only horrible guide I have ever purchased was the DQ8 guide. It was absolutely no help at all. The main reason I brought it was to help find towns and shit... and it couldn't even do that right. All they gave you were maps with no locations on it...
 
I have no problem using a guide, if I like the game enough I will buy the guide for it anyway just to see if I missed anything. When P3 first came out I played it for about five hours before going out and buying the guide, way to much shit you can miss in that game.

Side note, Dragon Age love it, I have Phantasy Star; Portable 2 coming in and I doubt I will touch it till I get all the endings in DA love it that much.
 
Thats pretty much the reason I got the guide for P3. It's too easy to miss things in that game or waste time trying to finsh a request. Frankly I wish I used a guide while playing ToV as well. I missed the bonus dungeon and some costumes because of simply getting too far in the game.
 
[quote name='Flak']Any Planescape vets? I'm about to install but I'm wondering if there aren't any must have mods for it, like widescreen support or something.[/QUOTE]Ooh, missed this post. Thank God for Krymner.

Ahem!

Yes. Yes there are.

The PST essentials are here. Bug fixes, cut content restorations, widescreen support, and gameplay tweaks. As I recall, you'll want to patch it first if you're using the four CD version, though.

Even with all those mods and fixes, combat can still be a pain in the tits thanks to AI/confusing 2nd edition D&D rules/pathfinding/how wimpy your character is for 2/3 of the game, but just remember: you're going to die. A lot. It's supposed to happen.

Also (general gameplay hints ahead),
dexterity is your dump stat, punch daggers are fucking badass, lawful good gives you access to the best weapon in the game, Morte is a great tank for the first two thirds of the game, and even if you don't plan on playing anything but warrior, at least try out the other classes, as you can go back at any time, the initial conversions will often get you free shit, and it can open important conversations with other characters. Oh, and I recommend starting with 18 wisdom.

EDIT: Okay, PST is a very easy game for me to talk about. So here ya go, slightly more in-depth gameplay hints.
Combat:
D&D 2 is very confusing for a lot of people, myself included. Thac0 = accuracy, and higher is better. AC is armour, and lower is better. After the 18th level, you can only increase strength in fractions, making +1 or 2 strength items very lucrative later on. You gain weapon proficiency by talking to trainers. Don't worry about picking the wrong one. All the weapon types are valid, though I favour punch daggers as noted above, and you get enough slots to specialize in multiple types, anyway. Also, once you get Fall from Grace, you might want to consider turning combat AI off. Don't bother looking for armour; rings, tattoos, and pumping costitution will have to do you.
Characters:
Mortimer, Dak'kon, Annah, and Grace are the basic, all-purpose party, leaving you space for one other person. If you run the fixpack, try and keep Dak'kon's morale up, as it makes his weapon better. If you go into the Rubikon, only bring five people, and don't play it on anything but hard.
...
Urgh. fucking Rubikon dungeon. fuck, fuck, fuck that place.
Classes:
Unlike your companions, you can not multi-class. You're a fighter, a wizard, or a thief. Thief is useless unless you really hate Annah-of-the-Shadows or tease her too much. Going wizard is the easiest way to use a lot of the more powerful spells (Dak'kon is heavily restricted), but you'll miss out on turning The Nameless One into an uber-tank in the late game. Either way. And at least get basic training in the other classes, as there are some neat rewards/conversations unlocked.
 
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[quote name='blueshinra']What's wrong with it? The soundtrack's all right so far.[/QUOTE]

The battle music was so grating on my ear that I sold the game, but to each his own. :D

About all this guide bidness: some games are just about impossible to truly succeed at without one (P4, I'm looking at you). In fact, in DA I completely passed up a specialization because I thought the phylactery was an enemy encounter. But it does take a lot of the fun out of a game sometimes, and if you're not playing for fun, then why?!
 
I never use a guide the first time throuth; I think it ruins the experience for me. I will go to gamefaqs if I get stuck somewhere, but other than that, never. I also never complete a game the first time through. If the game is really good, I might go back and complete it, but not anytime soon.
 
I don't have a problem with guides in general for RPGs, just for Persona 3 and 4 (never played 1 and 2 so can't comment on those). Making decisions about whom to talk to and what to say (i.e can figure out their personalities to decide how to make them happy?) is a HUGE portion of what makes the game fun/unique.
 
[quote name='dr_illingsworth']I never use a guide the first time throuth; I think it ruins the experience for me. I will go to gamefaqs if I get stuck somewhere, but other than that, never. I also never complete a game the first time through. If the game is really good, I might go back and complete it, but not anytime soon.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty much the same way. I like to figure stuff out for myself, and usually only look up things that I might've missed after beating the game (and usually only if I can see myself going for a full completion later on, which is very rarely).

So yeah, I don't use guides for any type of game, and only go to GameFAQs and/or Universal Hint System if I'm really, really stuck.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']I think there needs to be Reviews for Strategy Guides. Most of them are terribly worded, summarized and are jumbled messes. [/QUOTE]
you know what the worst part is

the person who "wrote" the strategy guide didn't do ANYTHING

it's all the QA team who gets zero credit

such is the BS of the game industry
 
I'm in the rarely use guides group. I usually only use them for helping me if I get stuck or doing side-quests at the end of games if I can't figure them out myself.

The only major exception to this that I can name is SMT: Nocturne, I made it about two-thirds through that game only using an FAQ to make sure I was killing all of the extra-bosses to get the True Demon Ending. But for like the last portion of that game I basically read all the suggestions on boss battles and walk-throughs for the final Kalpa levels and final dungeon... because those dungeons are nightmares (i.e. invisible portals, invisible walls, invisible floors, invisible holes in floors, etc...). I mean I'd still say I did things my own way as far as picking and fusing my final super overpowered demon team, but I made sure that I had suggested abilities (such as I got the Pierce ability so that my demons could hurt the extra final boss, as well as all the major debuffs and all of my demons knew full heal). I went with three of the four horseman of the apocalypse.... damn I love that game (and hate it at the same time lol).
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Ooh, missed this post. Thank God for Krymner.

Ahem!

Yes. Yes there are.

The PST essentials are here. Bug fixes, cut content restorations, widescreen support, and gameplay tweaks. As I recall, you'll want to patch it first if you're using the four CD version, though.

Even with all those mods and fixes, combat can still be a pain in the tits thanks to AI/confusing 2nd edition D&D rules/pathfinding/how wimpy your character is for 2/3 of the game, but just remember: you're going to die. A lot. It's supposed to happen.

Also (general gameplay hints ahead),
dexterity is your dump stat, punch daggers are fucking badass, lawful good gives you access to the best weapon in the game, Morte is a great tank for the first two thirds of the game, and even if you don't plan on playing anything but warrior, at least try out the other classes, as you can go back at any time, the initial conversions will often get you free shit, and it can open important conversations with other characters. Oh, and I recommend starting with 18 wisdom.

EDIT: Okay, PST is a very easy game for me to talk about. So here ya go, slightly more in-depth gameplay hints.
Combat:
D&D 2 is very confusing for a lot of people, myself included. Thac0 = accuracy, and higher is better. AC is armour, and lower is better. After the 18th level, you can only increase strength in fractions, making +1 or 2 strength items very lucrative later on. You gain weapon proficiency by talking to trainers. Don't worry about picking the wrong one. All the weapon types are valid, though I favour punch daggers as noted above, and you get enough slots to specialize in multiple types, anyway. Also, once you get Fall from Grace, you might want to consider turning combat AI off. Don't bother looking for armour; rings, tattoos, and pumping costitution will have to do you.
Characters:
Mortimer, Dak'kon, Annah, and Grace are the basic, all-purpose party, leaving you space for one other person. If you run the fixpack, try and keep Dak'kon's morale up, as it makes his weapon better. If you go into the Rubikon, only bring five people, and don't play it on anything but hard.
...
Urgh. fucking Rubikon dungeon. fuck, fuck, fuck that place.
Classes:
Unlike your companions, you can not multi-class. You're a fighter, a wizard, or a thief. Thief is useless unless you really hate Annah-of-the-Shadows or tease her too much. Going wizard is the easiest way to use a lot of the more powerful spells (Dak'kon is heavily restricted), but you'll miss out on turning The Nameless One into an uber-tank in the late game. Either way. And at least get basic training in the other classes, as there are some neat rewards/conversations unlocked.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks man. I hope to be up and running some time this afternoon.

As for guides, I just use GameFAQs. I know, it's well hated among the video game community far as I can tell, but it's a lot cheaper than buying guides. I have yet to be led astray when I actually need to use one of their guides.
 
Sweet! Etrian Odyssey 3 has been announced!!

etrian1209.jpg


Still working my way thru EO2. Old-school dungeon crawlers FTW!
 
I still need to finish Dark Spire, then I can start the Etrian Odyssey series. Maybe by the time I'm done, the 3rd one will be out.
 
I'm stuck in EO and still have EO2 chilling here sealed.

Stuck in Dark Spire too.

Well, maybe not stuck in the games but I just don't have time to deal with them at the moment.
 
Yeah, Dark Spire is a time consuming game, I've been playing for five or more hours and have only gone a couple of blocks on the second floor.
 
[quote name='Flak']Thanks man. I hope to be up and running some time this afternoon.[/QUOTE]
Excellent! Keep me up to date on how things are going in the game.

And don't worry if when you get killed. It happens. A lot. Consequences are minimal.
 
[quote name='Krymner']Sweet! Etrian Odyssey 3 has been announced!![/QUOTE]
You just made my day, sir. :whee:

Still have to play EO2, though...
 
[quote name='icebeast']I'm in the rarely use guides group. I usually only use them for helping me if I get stuck or doing side-quests at the end of games if I can't figure them out myself.

The only major exception to this that I can name is SMT: Nocturne, I made it about two-thirds through that game only using an FAQ to make sure I was killing all of the extra-bosses to get the True Demon Ending. But for like the last portion of that game I basically read all the suggestions on boss battles and walk-throughs for the final Kalpa levels and final dungeon... because those dungeons are nightmares (i.e. invisible portals, invisible walls, invisible floors, invisible holes in floors, etc...). I mean I'd still say I did things my own way as far as picking and fusing my final super overpowered demon team, but I made sure that I had suggested abilities (such as I got the Pierce ability so that my demons could hurt the extra final boss, as well as all the major debuffs and all of my demons knew full heal). I went with three of the four horseman of the apocalypse.... damn I love that game (and hate it at the same time lol).[/QUOTE]

I've got to restart Nocturne because I screwed my party up so bad I can't beat the final boss. None of my demons know Pierce. I was stupid and got rid of it early. I thought it was a weaker spell since everyone seemed to get it early in the progression. I'll go back to it after I finish my backlog.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I've got to restart Nocturne because I screwed my party up so bad I can't beat the final boss. None of my demons know Pierce. I was stupid and got rid of it early. I thought it was a weaker spell since everyone seemed to get it early in the progression. I'll go back to it after I finish my backlog.[/QUOTE]

Wow that just sounds like shitty game design. Any game that allows you to screw yourself over so that you can't finish it should be redesigned. In this case it sounds like they could have easily fixed it by not requiring Pierce for the last boss.

One of the worst offenders I can think of is Shadowgate. You're wondering all over trying to find the right items and do things in the right order, but there's a bridge you can only cross 3 times before it crumbles and strands you on the far side, possibly without the items you need to progress. Argh.
 
[quote name='Backlash']Wow that just sounds like shitty game design. Any game that allows you to screw yourself over so that you can't finish it should be redesigned. In this case it sounds like they could have easily fixed it by not requiring Pierce for the last boss.

One of the worst offenders I can think of is Shadowgate. You're wondering all over trying to find the right items and do things in the right order, but there's a bridge you can only cross 3 times before it crumbles and strands you on the far side, possibly without the items you need to progress. Argh.[/QUOTE]

Nocturne is pretty outstanding, it may be difficult but it has that intangible something that makes a game a classic.
 
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