Ubisoft threatens to sue Something Awful over Jade Raymond webcomic

[quote name='HotShotX']I'm here to offer my professional analysis of the photo in question:
4mmwg8kof5.jpg
[/quote]
:rofl:
 
[quote name='Nohbdy']Frankly, I'm flabbergasted at the response of the thread. Very few people here know what they're talking about and I'm at the brink of asking to lock this.
[/quote]
You included... :whistle2:k also in before the lock.


I just noticed that someone posted the comic over at YTMND, this might not end well.
 
Jade is really pretty. I can understand why she is the one in the front.

Still, the comic was in bad taste. That's not cool at all.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']So I guess the reason I find Garfield funny is that my beliefs as to what constitute socially acceptable satire are rooted in weight bias. It's so funny when that cat goes for that lasagna![/QUOTE]

Now, if you find Garfield funny, then you have an anti-humor bias. ;)

A "weight bias"? Sure. Why not?

Don't take it personally if I try to tell people that they have biases they're unaware of. I don't mean you exclusively, or that it's something some people have and some people don't. Unless you live in a hole in the ground, you are aware of sexist stereotypes of women. That's the bias. I'm aware of them. I, too, possess the bias.

Anyone who says they don't have biases is mistaken or delusional.

The difference is in allowing yourself to activate and apply those biases is, IMO, when it becomes a problem. Take a good ol' racist "boy them black people love watermelon" joke. Most of us are aware as to *why* it should be funny, because we're armed with the knowledge of the "black people love watermelon" stereotype. Where the bias becomes a problem is where you permit that joke to actually be funny to you and others; in the process of doing so, you legitimize the bias into a valid stereotype (or diminish the genuine problematic aspect of it by reducing it to humor).

Having a bias is not the problem, IMO. It's allowing it to be more than that by accepting it.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Now, if you find Garfield funny, then you have an anti-humor bias. ;)

A "weight bias"? Sure. Why not?

Don't take it personally if I try to tell people that they have biases they're unaware of. I don't mean you exclusively, or that it's something some people have and some people don't. Unless you live in a hole in the ground, you are aware of sexist stereotypes of women. That's the bias. I'm aware of them. I, too, possess the bias.

Anyone who says they don't have biases is mistaken or delusional.

The difference is in allowing yourself to activate and apply those biases is, IMO, when it becomes a problem. Take a good ol' racist "boy them black people love watermelon" joke. Most of us are aware as to *why* it should be funny, because we're armed with the knowledge of the "black people love watermelon" stereotype. Where the bias becomes a problem is where you permit that joke to actually be funny to you and others; in the process of doing so, you legitimize the bias into a valid stereotype (or diminish the genuine problematic aspect of it by reducing it to humor).

Having a bias is not the problem, IMO. It's allowing it to be more than that by accepting it.[/QUOTE]
I actually don't like Garfield, just used it as an example lol.

But I completely agree with you actually. I was just stating I found it funny more because of the nerds portrayed in it than Jade's role.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']They deny it, but it is Knight in Shining Armor Syndrome. They think that by fanatically defending womankind, and persecuting every stupid little thing, like this comic, that they'll totally get all the chicks.[/quote]
I disagree with you there; it isn't about getting chicks as much as it is people who get off on being bastions of 'tolerance' (Defined narrowly) and 'enlightenend thinking' (Also defined narrowly.)

Don't take it personally if I try to tell people that they have biases they're unaware of. I don't mean you exclusively, or that it's something some people have and some people don't. Unless you live in a hole in the ground, you are aware of sexist stereotypes of women. That's the bias. I'm aware of them. I, too, possess the bias.

Anyone who says they don't have biases is mistaken or delusional.

The difference is in allowing yourself to activate and apply those biases is, IMO, when it becomes a problem. Take a good ol' racist "boy them black people love watermelon" joke. Most of us are aware as to *why* it should be funny, because we're armed with the knowledge of the "black people love watermelon" stereotype. Where the bias becomes a problem is where you permit that joke to actually be funny to you and others; in the process of doing so, you legitimize the bias into a valid stereotype (or diminish the genuine problematic aspect of it by reducing it to humor).

Having a bias is not the problem, IMO. It's allowing it to be more than that by accepting it.
Click to expand...
See, I would take offense at you telling me I have biases that I am 'unaware' of. These are the internets, folks here are 14-25. In this generation, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY for you not to be aware of how horrible X, Y, and Z biases are, either through schooling or today's media. You're claiming a halo for thinking that the person you're talking to is a ridiculous, obdurate caricature, an unreasonable assumption.

Simply go to 4chan or any "raunchy" aspect of the internets. The constant nigger jokes there are not a product of bona fide racism. The only reason those jokes are so prevalent is because they are taboo. A well-told racism joke can make most anyone 18-25 laugh simply because we have been brought up with such a pathological fear of racism that, when abused in an over-the-top manner, such stereotypes become comical. If you took Boondocks' Uncle Ruckus at face value, he's a terrifying, despicable character (Were he not so comically impotent and foiled so well by Robert and Huey, my distaste for him would manifest itself phsycially.). But given the fact that every one of us has been raised in an environment such that we're acutely, profoundly, and consistently reminded about the evils of racism, finding his constant racist tirades humorous is a great deal easier.

I suppose a good analogy would be a trite refrain often used for the War on Drugs. By forbidding drugs, some say you only draw attention to them, the forbidden fruit, etc, etc. Given how much of today's society is geared toward stamping out racism, sexism, et al, why would one not expect the same conclusion to be drawn about these stereotypes?
 
[quote name='Apossum']hmmm, none of them look too amused. they've been living at HQ for months at a time busting ass on the game while she's out shmoozing it up :lol:[/QUOTE]


At first I thought the guy on the right was like the UPS guy that happened to stroll in right before the picture.
 
Personally I have nothing against Jade. Those claiming she was hired based on sex appeal seam pretty misogynistic as she's been doing a better job than most at hyping up their games. But I do have to admit, that pic of Ubisoft is really funny. I like how they make everyone standing several feet away from Jade, which is pretty tasteless in and of itself. That being said that comic sucks, but there's no way to wain a lawsuit against something like that.
 
[quote name='RollingSkull']See, I would take offense at you telling me I have biases that I am 'unaware' of. These are the internets, folks here are 14-25. In this generation, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY for you not to be aware of how horrible X, Y, and Z biases are, either through schooling or today's media. You're claiming a halo for thinking that the person you're talking to is a ridiculous, obdurate caricature, an unreasonable assumption.[/quote]

I'm really failing to see how people can be both aware of how horrible active biases can be and also putting together the nauseating "niggersaurus" thread that was on CAG a day or two ago.

Simply go to 4chan or any "raunchy" aspect of the internets. The constant nigger jokes there are not a product of bona fide racism. The only reason those jokes are so prevalent is because they are taboo. A well-told racism joke can make most anyone 18-25 laugh simply because we have been brought up with such a pathological fear of racism that, when abused in an over-the-top manner, such stereotypes become comical. If you took Boondocks' Uncle Ruckus at face value, he's a terrifying, despicable character (Were he not so comically impotent and foiled so well by Robert and Huey, my distaste for him would manifest itself phsycially.). But given the fact that every one of us has been raised in an environment such that we're acutely, profoundly, and consistently reminded about the evils of racism, finding his constant racist tirades humorous is a great deal easier.
Click to expand...

Uncle Ruckus =/= the kinds of posts you're comparing it to. There's no attempt at anything but "humor" in forum posts and images, while there is a sincere social/political statement in Ruckus. It's satire; some comedy is satire, but not all comedy is. I'd recommend Spike Lee's "Bamboozled" as an example of racist stereotypes used in the frame of dark, dark humor (it is satire after all) to make a social statement. The constrast of Savion Glover as "Mantan and the New Millenium Minstrel Hour" with Mos Def's character with the "Mau Maus" is nothing short of genius.

There is no such message to be found at 4chan, or encyclopedia dramatica, or similar places on the internet. The internet is more like the country club, where people can tell demeaning jokes amongst friends in a secure, safe environment ,and then turn off those attitudes when necessary (at church, at work, with the kids).

People are going to say and do tasteless things; that's not going to stop. I actually have a bigger problem with the "deal with it" mentality than even those who make the initial comments to begin with. It's not okay to make sexist remarks. It's not okay to make racist remarks. Why should I sit back and allow people to act as if this is okay? Your incorrect consideration of this kind of gallows internet humor as part of a broader recognition of social problems of race and gender is silly, IMO. What do we gain, at all, from this comic, or from the "niggersaurus" thread, in terms of improving social relations between groups? Anything? I don't see anything close to that. Instead, I see people thinking that "female producer with a modicum of beauty" = "cocksucking whore" is a cutting and prescient criticism to make. I see people thinking that "nigger" is an okay word to use flippantly, with no regard to context or problems, current or legacy, with that.

If you want my short summary of how I look at this, it's simply: criticize a title based on its individual merits, good and bad. It's inappropriate, incorrect, and insensitive to ignore the game in its entirety and delve right into sexist ad hominem attacks on the producer.

I suppose a good analogy would be a trite refrain often used for the War on Drugs. By forbidding drugs, some say you only draw attention to them, the forbidden fruit, etc, etc. Given how much of today's society is geared toward stamping out racism, sexism, et al, why would one not expect the same conclusion to be drawn about these stereotypes?
Click to expand...

Are you implying that fewer people would do drugs if they were legal?!?!?!? How absurd.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']A good laugh![/QUOTE]

Mayhaps that is the problem, as the distinction between humor based on the critique of social stereotypes and that based on their reinforcement seems to have been lost in the shuffle.

In short, you need to know what you're laughing at.
 
You know after reading this thread and thinking about this whole incident. It really shows why there aren't alot of girls working in the Game Industry. I mean really, I don't know how much work Jade does, but no matter how much real work she did she would just be accused of being a sex symbol.
Which is ultimately horrible, so it makes you realize why less women would want to go into a field where for lots of reasons they will get critized.
 
[quote name='HotShotX']I'm here to offer my professional analysis of the photo in question:
4mmwg8kof5.jpg
[/quote]
ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED: YOU HIRED A BLACK GUY

I fucking lol'ed.

Also...

"Your game feels so good! Uguu!" Should be friggen quoted for being stupidly funny.

Also, I'm lol'ing at some people flipping out over it. Especially those who tend to not visit 4Chan. A 4Chan meme slipped right into the comic and some didn't notice. That damn Xbox 360 kid with the goofy smile and braces from a GameStop ad is popping up everywhere.

Finally, she doesn't have a chance. Jack Thompson always threatens to sue anyone who makes any type of satire using his image. Never goes through. Freedom of speech. Not to mention, they're trying to pass it off as a "fake image" when it's not even a fake or edit to begin with. It's a fucking cartoon.
 
[quote name='Tsukento']
Finally, she doesn't have a chance. Jack Thompson always threatens to sue anyone who makes any type of satire using his image. Never goes through. Freedom of speech. Not to mention, they're trying to pass it off as a "fake image" when it's not even a fake or edit to begin with. It's a fucking cartoon.[/quote]

The difference is Jack Thompson is a known jackwipe (that is against the game industry) that deserves everything he has coming to him. She is a MEMBER of the industry we love and got shit on for no good reason. I remember years ago Gamefan had some very offensive things about the Japanese that got printed into a magazine and they had the class to apologize in the next issue. We get enough negativity from those who aren't fans of the game industry without adding to it ourselves.
 
The whole ordeal has now gotten a couple of Digg posts, and spreading quite a bit. I'd say Ubisoft fucked this one over proper. Poor Jade (and Ubisoft) is going to have to learn to laugh this one off.

Aside from all of that, I was watching Ultimate Fighting Championship on PPV last night at a friend's house, and they had quite a bit of AC sponsorship, as in, AC logos on every hat and shorts (and therefore ass).

~HotShotX
 
It's funny though. They're blowing it (no pun intended) out like as if someone got a hold of actual nudie or sex photos of her and posted them all over the net. I can understand being grossed out or offended, but that's really blowing it out proportion.

FAR WORSE could have been done. But it didn't. It's just a drawing. Virtual ink on virtual paper.
 
[quote name='Rei no Otaku']It's funny that if they had never sent that letter to SA, then almost none of us would have ever even seen the comic.[/quote]
Not exactly, seeing as how the artist had it on his DeviantArt account and had it posted on 4Chan as well. SA just happened to take the hit as if they had made it.
 
Well if Ubisoft hadn't sent the letter period. That better? The point still stands that the reason it's getting this attention is because Ubisoft is the one that brought it to ours.
 
Man, I thought I had handed out all the smackdown that this thread could possibly require, but they just keep coming back for more. That's cool, I'm up for it.

[quote name='GuilewasNK']The difference is Jack Thompson is a known jackwipe (that is against the game industry) that deserves everything he has coming to him. She is a MEMBER of the industry we love and got shit on for no good reason.[/QUOTE]
In my opinion, Jade Raymond allowing herself to be pimped by Ubisoft in order to draw attention to Assassin's Creed is a very, very negative thing for the industry. Using the sex appeal of an employee, while probably not as bad as having a stark raving lunatic lawyer running around with delusions of grandeur, thinking that he can somehow shut down the industry or whatever, is still pretty damned lame.


[quote name='mykevermin']I'm really failing to see how people can be both aware of how horrible active biases can be and also putting together the nauseating "niggersaurus" thread that was on CAG a day or two ago.[/quote]
Ya know, I was disappointed when that thread got locked (because it was awesome), but now that I think about it, it was really a blessing in disguise. Thank god that it got locked before you managed to get in one of your essays about how evil and wrong it is. I'm sure you would have found some way to blame me for racial inequality in the workplace and the real estate market.

They discovered a dinosaur with big lips and named it "Nigersaurus." I didn't even have to make a joke. I simply pointed it out, and for all you knew, I was presenting it in the interests of science, which, and I'm being honest, was a part of my motivation for posting it. They don't discover new dinosaurs everyday, ya know.

[quote name='mykevermin']People are going to say and do tasteless things; that's not going to stop. I actually have a bigger problem with the "deal with it" mentality than even those who make the initial comments to begin with. It's not okay to make sexist remarks. It's not okay to make racist remarks. Why should I sit back and allow people to act as if this is okay?[/quote]
So, you admit the futility of it all, and yet you keep soldiering on with your worthless theses that aren't going to change anyone's minds.

I've gotta hand it to you, you're every bit as stupid and stubborn-headed as I am. Congrats.

Seriously, though. Just deal with it.

[quote name='mykevermin']What do we gain, at all, from this comic, or from the "niggersaurus" thread, in terms of improving social relations between groups? Anything?[/quote]
Huh. I guess I just wasn't aware that jokes should only exist for the sole purpose of social betterment and improvement of inter-group relations.

As Rei no Otaku said earlier, though in different terms: We get what we call "lulz," which is a corruption of "LOL," which stands for "laugh out loud."

[quote name='mykevermin']Instead, I see people thinking that "female producer with a modicum of beauty" = "cocksucking whore" is a cutting and prescient criticism to make.[/quote]
Ten pages in, and you're still missing one of the fundamental points of the entire thing. Jade Raymond was not criticized in the cartoon simply for being a woman (attractive or not) working in the videogame industry. Had she been the anonymous figure that 99.9% of videogame producers are, the cartoon would never have existed. Had Raymond only been seen doing the typical promo duties that videogame producers perform, such as a few interviews here and there, maybe a couple level walkthroughs at trade shows, the comic still would never have existed (or at least, pretty damn likely wouldn't have existed).

The reason the comic exists, is because Ubisoft has been shoving Jade Raymond in our faces for the better part of a year, using her image and yes, her sex appeal, to draw attention to Assassin's Creed seemingly at every turn. She's gotten more media face time in the past six months than Miyamoto, Wright, and Molyneux combined. Probably only Phil Harrison and Kaz Hirai have been more played out in the media lately, and *psst*, that's just because people like to laugh at them.

Maybe I'm exaggerating, but at the very least, there is simply no way to deny that Ubisoft was excessive in their use of Raymond (and her image) to promote AC. They overdid it. Raymond isn't even an incredibly important industry figure (all she's done is some TV hosting, a couple programming jobs as Sony, and producing one A-list game), and yet she's gotten many times as much media attention (largely by Ubi's own devices) as female industry figures who are many times as signifigant as she is.

She's not getting made fun of because she's a woman working in the games industry. She's being made fun of because of how (intentionally) over-exposed her image has become during the promotion of Assassin's Creed. The comic does nothing to "keep down" women working in the games business; it serves only to aptly parody and mock this one individual case of a woman's image being over-used to hype a game, not to lambaste and demean all game-industry women simply for being game-industry women. The cartoonist demonstrates no blind, baseless contempt for all women in the game industry. He simply noticed, as many have, this one case of a woman being over-exposed for her looks, rather than her prowess as a game producer.

Being a woman in the game industry does not guarantee you a life of ridicule, contempt, and being the butt of crude jokes. I mean, how many crude jokes or "dick-sucking" cartoons have you seen regarding, oh, for instance...
Paulina Bozek (producer and director of Singstar), or Rima Brek (AI programmer for Rainbow Six), or Jane Cavanagh (co-founder and CEO of SCi, and CEO of Eidos), or Linda Currie (co-founder of Sirtech, creators of Wizardry, and producer of Jagged Alliance), or Erin Hoffman (best known as the infamous "ea_spouse," but also a game designer herself working on the DS versions of Marvel Trading Card Game and Puzzle Quest), or Ayami Kojima (the legendary artist for post-Symphony of the Night Castlevania games), or Arcadia Kim (product development director on several Sim series at Maxis, as well as for EA's Lord of the Rings games), or Shara Miller (producer at LucasArts on Mercenaries, Star Wars Battlefront, and ThrillVille), or Rhianna Pratchett (Story designer and writer for Overlord and Heavenly Sword; PS, here's another pic, because I think she's really quite nice-looking), or Shannon Studstill (the gorgeous producer of God of War, who I've also deemed worthy of a second pic)?

Lemme answer that for you: None. And you wanna know why? Because they weren't paraded around by their employers to draw attention to any of the games they worked on. And it's not because they aren't good-looking. I'd say that every last one of the fine upstanding ladies that I mentioned is, at the very least, pretty damned easy on the eyes. And Shannon Studstill, Rhianna Pratchett, and Paulina Bozek are all downright gorgeous, as far as I'm concerned.

I mean, Shannon Studstill is producer on God of frigging War, a way bigger game than Assassin's Creed will ever be, and probably twice as hyped during the lead-ins to release, and you never saw any comics insinuating that she would suck your dick if you bought the game. Same goes for Paulina Bozek, who's Singstar franchise is a multi-million seller (in Europe anyways).

They're both gorgeous, and yet, you don't see them criticized in the same way as Raymond. Gee, I guess it might have something to do with how Sony never flooded the media with images of them in order to build hype for their games!

Also, you'll notice that I was mostly trying to stick to producers and the like in that list, to maintain similarity to Raymond's role. If you start to include women working in more executive positions at game companies, you'll find other fine ladies like Beth Llewelyn (senior director of PR at Nintendo), the lovely Yasmin Naboa (VP of sales at Ubisoft), and Elizabeth Loverso (director of product development for Red Storm), all of whom are thus far free from being the butt of dick-sucking jokes, because once again, they aren't pimped by their employers.

[quote name='mykevermin']If you want my short summary of how I look at this, it's simply: criticize a title based on its individual merits, good and bad. It's inappropriate, incorrect, and insensitive to ignore the game in its entirety and delve right into sexist ad hominem attacks on the producer.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, except I think that I think that the Jade Raymond fiasco is a negative merit against the game. Try as we might, many people find it difficult, or impossible, not to let external factors affect our judgment of a game. I'll never be able to completely disregard the whole over-use of Raymonds image in the promotion of AC, in my judgment of the game. It was an ugly thing, in my opinion, and it it a mark against the game, though on a meta-level.

And why can't we make fun of something like Raymond's over-exposure, regardless of the game's merits? Whether it's a great or a shitty game, that doesn't change how her image was over-exposed to draw attention to Assassin's Creed.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Man, I thought I had handed out all the smackdown that this thread could possibly require, but they just keep coming back for more. That's cool, I'm up for it.


In my opinion, Jade Raymond allowing herself to be pimped by Ubisoft in order to draw attention to Assassin's Creed is a very, very negative thing for the industry. Using the sex appeal of an employee, while probably not as bad as having a stark raving lunatic lawyer running around with delusions of grandeur, thinking that he can somehow shut down the industry or whatever, is still pretty damned lame.



Ya know, I was disappointed when that thread got locked (because it was awesome), but now that I think about it, it was really a blessing in disguise. Thank god that it got locked before you managed to get in one of your essays about how evil and wrong it is. I'm sure you would have found some way to blame me for racial inequality in the workplace and the real estate market.

They discovered a dinosaur with big lips and named it "Nigersaurus." I didn't even have to make a joke. I simply pointed it out, and for all you knew, I was presenting it in the interests of science, which, and I'm being honest, was a part of my motivation for posting it. They don't discover new dinosaurs everyday, ya know.


So, you admit the futility of it all, and yet you keep soldiering on with your worthless theses that aren't going to change anyone's minds.

I've gotta hand it to you, you're every bit as stupid and stubborn-headed as I am. Congrats.

Seriously, though. Just deal with it.


Huh. I guess I just wasn't aware that jokes should only exist for the sole purpose of social betterment and improvement of inter-group relations.

As Rei no Otaku said earlier, though in different terms: We get what we call "lulz," which is a corruption of "LOL," which stands for "laugh out loud."


Ten pages in, and you're still missing one of the fundamental points of the entire thing. Jade Raymond was not criticized in the cartoon simply for being a woman (attractive or not) working in the videogame industry. Had she been the anonymous figure that 99.9% of videogame producers are, the cartoon would never have existed. Had Raymond only been seen doing the typical promo duties that videogame producers perform, such as a few interviews here and there, maybe a couple level walkthroughs at trade shows, the comic still would never have existed (or at least, pretty damn likely wouldn't have existed).

The reason the comic exists, is because Ubisoft has been shoving Jade Raymond in our faces for the better part of a year, using her image and yes, her sex appeal, to draw attention to Assassin's Creed seemingly at every turn. She's gotten more media face time in the past six months than Miyamoto, Wright, and Molyneux combined. Probably only Phil Harrison and Kaz Hirai have been more played out in the media lately, and *psst*, that's just because people like to laugh at them.

Maybe I'm exaggerating, but at the very least, there is simply no way to deny that Ubisoft was excessive in their use of Raymond (and her image) to promote AC. They overdid it. Raymond isn't even an incredibly important industry figure (all she's done is some TV hosting, a couple programming jobs as Sony, and producing one A-list game), and yet she's gotten many times as much media attention (largely by Ubi's own devices) as female industry figures who are many times as signifigant as she is.

She's not getting made fun of because she's a woman working in the games industry. She's being made fun of because of how (intentionally) over-exposed her image has become during the promotion of Assassin's Creed. The comic does nothing to "keep down" women working in the games business; it serves only to aptly parody and mock this one individual case of a woman's image being over-used to hype a game, not to lambaste and demean all game-industry women simply for being game-industry women. The cartoonist demonstrates no blind, baseless contempt for all women in the game industry. He simply noticed, as many have, this one case of a woman being over-exposed for her looks, rather than her prowess as a game producer.

Being a woman in the game industry does not guarantee you a life of ridicule, contempt, and being the butt of crude jokes. I mean, how many crude jokes or "dick-sucking" cartoons have you seen regarding, oh, for instance...
Paulina Bozek (producer and director of Singstar), or Rima Brek (AI programmer for Rainbow Six), or Jane Cavanagh (co-founder and CEO of SCi, and CEO of Eidos), or Linda Currie (co-founder of Sirtech, creators of Wizardry, and producer of Jagged Alliance), or Erin Hoffman (best known as the infamous "ea_spouse," but also a game designer herself working on the DS versions of Marvel Trading Card Game and Puzzle Quest), or Ayami Kojima (the legendary artist for post-Symphony of the Night Castlevania games), or Arcadia Kim (product development director on several Sim series at Maxis, as well as for EA's Lord of the Rings games), or Shara Miller (producer at LucasArts on Mercenaries, Star Wars Battlefront, and ThrillVille), or Rhianna Pratchett (Story designer and writer for Overlord and Heavenly Sword; PS, here's another pic, because I think she's really quite nice-looking), or Shannon Studstill (the gorgeous producer of God of War, who I've also deemed worthy of a second pic)?

Lemme answer that for you: None. And you wanna know why? Because they weren't paraded around by their employers to draw attention to any of the games they worked on. And it's not because they aren't good-looking. I'd say that every last one of the fine upstanding ladies that I mentioned is, at the very least, pretty damned easy on the eyes. And Shannon Studstill, Rhianna Pratchett, and Paulina Bozek are all downright gorgeous, as far as I'm concerned.

I mean, Shannon Studstill is producer on God of frigging War, a way bigger game than Assassin's Creed will ever be, and probably twice as hyped during the lead-ins to release, and you never saw any comics insinuating that she would suck your dick if you bought the game. Same goes for Paulina Bozek, who's Singstar franchise is a multi-million seller (in Europe anyways).

They're both gorgeous, and yet, you don't see them criticized in the same way as Raymond. Gee, I guess it might have something to do with how Sony never flooded the media with images of them in order to build hype for their games!

Also, you'll notice that I was mostly trying to stick to producers and the like in that list, to maintain similarity to Raymond's role. If you start to include women working in more executive positions at game companies, you'll find other fine ladies like Beth Llewelyn (senior director of PR at Nintendo), the lovely Yasmin Naboa (VP of sales at Ubisoft), and Elizabeth Loverso (director of product development for Red Storm), all of whom are thus far free from being the butt of dick-sucking jokes, because once again, they aren't pimped by their employers.


Yeah, except I think that I think that the Jade Raymond fiasco is a negative merit against the game. Try as we might, many people find it difficult, or impossible, not to let external factors affect our judgment of a game. I'll never be able to completely disregard the whole over-use of Raymonds image in the promotion of AC, in my judgment of the game. It was an ugly thing, in my opinion, and it it a mark against the game, though on a meta-level.

And why can't we make fun of something like Raymond's over-exposure, regardless of the game's merits? Whether it's a great or a shitty game, that doesn't change how her image was over-exposed to draw attention to Assassin's Creed.[/QUOTE]
:applause:

Oh and that Singstar producer is smokin' hot! Damn!
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Man, I thought I had handed out all the smackdown that this thread could possibly require, but they just keep coming back for more. That's cool, I'm up for it.


In my opinion, Jade Raymond allowing herself to be pimped by Ubisoft in order to draw attention to Assassin's Creed is a very, very negative thing for the industry. Using the sex appeal of an employee, while probably not as bad as having a stark raving lunatic lawyer running around with delusions of grandeur, thinking that he can somehow shut down the industry or whatever, is still pretty damned lame.



[/quote]

Using sex appeal is negative and lame?

Hell son, using sex appeal is Marketing 101 in anything that can marketed to adults. How is that more negative than Hot Coffee, Jack Thompson, or Manhunt 2's AO controversy? Ubisoft didn't bring negativity even REMOTELY close to the other things I mentioned. Mom and dad don't know about Ubisoft "pimping" Jade Raymond, but I bet they know about those other things. Jade Raymond didn't get Congress putting their nose in shit that they don't understand.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge'] *big ass post*[/QUOTE]


tl;dr

jk, I did read a lot of it. I fall almost dead center between you guys on the subject, but just wanted to say your argumentation is shitloads better when you aren't lacing in shitloads of ad hominem, CoffeeEdge. :)
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']Using sex appeal is negative and lame?

[/QUOTE]

In the case of Assassin's Creed yeah, sorta. I understand it with Tomb Raider and Dead or Alive where in the game you're playing as foxy (for polygons) ladies. In those cases, showcasing the main characters in the game makes sense. Jade Raymond isn't *in* Assassin's Creed, whats-iz-face is (see how effective their marketing is). Sell the game on the game's merits and story, not on who helped make it.
 
[quote name='Halo05']In the case of Assassin's Creed yeah, sorta. I understand it with Tomb Raider and Dead or Alive where in the game you're playing as foxy (for polygons) ladies. In those cases, showcasing the main characters in the game makes sense. Jade Raymond isn't *in* Assassin's Creed, whats-iz-face is (see how effective their marketing is). Sell the game on the game's merits and story, not on who helped make it.[/quote]

Did she promote this spread eagle in Playboy or something? Because everyone is acting like Paris Hilton is promoting the game.
 
[quote name='GuilewasNK']Did she promote this spread eagle in Playboy or something? Because everyone is acting like Paris Hilton is promoting the game.[/QUOTE]
No, but Ubisoft still whored her out. To complete the comic he should have drawn a guy in a Ubisoft shirt with a pimp hat on in the background.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']In my opinion, Jade Raymond allowing herself to be pimped by Ubisoft in order to draw attention to Assassin's Creed is a very, very negative thing for the industry.[/QUOTE]

Herein lies the problem: simultaneous with the criticism of Ubisoft (or perhaps the industry in general) comes the needless implication that Jade Raymond is a whore. Your language, after all, paints her as such.

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Using the sex appeal of an employee, while probably not as bad as having a stark raving lunatic lawyer running around with delusions of grandeur, thinking that he can somehow shut down the industry or whatever, is still pretty damned lame.[/QUOTE]

I'd tend to agree.

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']They discovered a dinosaur with big lips and named it "Nigersaurus." I didn't even have to make a joke. I simply pointed it out, and for all you knew, I was presenting it in the interests of science, which, and I'm being honest, was a part of my motivation for posting it. They don't discover new dinosaurs everyday, ya know.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps. Regardless, the species in question has been in scientific discourse since 1976. Maybe it wasn't as funny then.

http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_CT_Imaging_Sheds_Light_on_Saharan_Nigersaurus_taqueti_10684.html

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Seriously, though. Just deal with it.[/QUOTE]

If we're to be glib, how about "If you're not part of the solution..."

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Huh. I guess I just wasn't aware that jokes should only exist for the sole purpose of social betterment and improvement of inter-group relations.[/QUOTE]

Correct. However, the argument here is over whether jokes which perpetuate social divides are appropriate, not whether or not there is ever a place for purposeless humor.


[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Ten pages in, and you're still missing one of the fundamental points of the entire thing. Jade Raymond was not criticized in the cartoon simply for being a woman (attractive or not) working in the videogame industry. Had she been the anonymous figure that 99.9% of videogame producers are, the cartoon would never have existed. Had Raymond only been seen doing the typical promo duties that videogame producers perform, such as a few interviews here and there, maybe a couple level walkthroughs at trade shows, the comic still would never have existed (or at least, pretty damn likely wouldn't have existed).[/QUOTE]

'tis natural, then, that she be garbed in the raiments of the painted whore? Does getting a little more press than usual imply dim-wittedness and treachery?

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']The reason the comic exists, is because Ubisoft has been shoving Jade Raymond in our faces for the better part of a year, using her image and yes, her sex appeal, to draw attention to Assassin's Creed seemingly at every turn. She's gotten more media face time in the past six months than Miyamoto, Wright, and Molyneux combined. Probably only Phil Harrison and Kaz Hirai have been more played out in the media lately, and *psst*, that's just because people like to laugh at them.

Maybe I'm exaggerating, but at the very least, there is simply no way to deny that Ubisoft was excessive in their use of Raymond (and her image) to promote AC. They overdid it. Raymond isn't even an incredibly important industry figure (all she's done is some TV hosting, a couple programming jobs as Sony, and producing one A-list game), and yet she's gotten many times as much media attention (largely by Ubi's own devices) as female industry figures who are many times as signifigant as she is.[/QUOTE]

A valid criticism of Ubisoft. A shame that its name appears nowhere in the comic in question. If the critique is meant for it, after all, then why does it arrive to us in the form of an attack on the competence and credibility of a single individual?

More pointedly, why is she the sole agressor? I see no strings here, so suggestion that she is playing the fool for the grand designs of another. It is "Jade's game" that we must buy, after all, as she will surely make us do, making up for her lack of brains with a surfeit of skin.

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']She's not getting made fun of because she's a woman working in the games industry. She's being made fun of because of how (intentionally) over-exposed her image has become during the promotion of Assassin's Creed.[/QUOTE]

Hard to determine how intentional the overexposure was, and on whose part it began. How do we make the leap to suggest its origin was her? Assumption?

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']The comic does nothing to "keep down" women working in the games business; it serves only to aptly parody and mock this one individual case of a woman's image being over-used to hype a game, not to lambaste and demean all game-industry women simply for being game-industry women. The cartoonist demonstrates no blind, baseless contempt for all women in the game industry. He simply noticed, as many have, this one case of a woman being over-exposed for her looks, rather than her prowess as a game producer.

[snip]

Lemme answer that for you: None. And you wanna know why? Because they weren't paraded around by their employers to draw attention to any of the games they worked on. And it's not because they aren't good-looking. I'd say that every last one of the fine upstanding ladies that I mentioned is, at the very least, pretty damned easy on the eyes. And Shannon Studstill, Rhianna Pratchett, and Paulina Bozek are all downright gorgeous, as far as I'm concerned.[/QUOTE]

Indeed they were not. But what if they were? What if any one of them were as bandied about and "overexposed" as you claim Jade Raymond to have been? By default, would they, then, be apt to being criticised as ignorant bimbos who are only able to secure advantage by peddling their sexuality on the corner?

This is the key, here. How is the leap from overexposed media figure to manipulative cocksucking slut being made? Is there some direct behavior on her part that would at least render such parody sensible?

[quote name='CoffeeEdge']And why can't we make fun of something like Raymond's over-exposure, regardless of the game's merits? Whether it's a great or a shitty game, that doesn't change how her image was over-exposed to draw attention to Assassin's Creed.[/QUOTE]

Certainly you can, but why direct it solely at her and not at Ubisoft? Why make it so lowbrow, using such overblown and baseless caricatures of femininity? Why question her intelligence?

And, most importantly, why accept the use of personal attacks and insinutation as a first recourse? Why accept them as true on no evidence other than the subject's gender?
 
[quote name='Magus8472']Herein lies the problem: simultaneous with the criticism of Ubisoft (or perhaps the industry in general) comes the needless implication that Jade Raymond is a whore. Your language, after all, paints her as such.



'tis natural, then, that she be garbed in the raiments of the painted whore? Does getting a little more press than usual imply dim-wittedness and treachery?



A valid criticism of Ubisoft. A shame that its name appears nowhere in the comic in question. If the critique is meant for it, after all, then why does it arrive to us in the form of an attack on the competence and credibility of a single individual?


More pointedly, why is she the sole agressor? I see no strings here, so suggestion that she is playing the fool for the grand designs of another. It is "Jade's game" that we must buy, after all, as she will surely make us do, making up for her lack of brains with a surfeit of skin.


Hard to determine how intentional the overexposure was, and on whose part it began. How do we make the leap to suggest its origin was her? Assumption?


Indeed they were not. But what if they were? What if any one of them were as bandied about and "overexposed" as you claim Jade Raymond to have been? By default, would they, then, be apt to being criticised as ignorant bimbos who are only able to secure advantage by peddling their sexuality on the corner?

This is the key, here. How is the leap from overexposed media figure to manipulative cocksucking slut being made? Is there some direct behavior on her part that would at least render such parody sensible?


Certainly you can, but why direct it solely at her and not at Ubisoft? Why make it so lowbrow, using such overblown and baseless caricatures of femininity? Why question her intelligence?

And, most importantly, why accept the use of personal attacks and insinutation as a first recourse? Why accept them as true on no evidence other than the subject's gender?[/quote]

Great post.
 
Geez, did anyone really look at that comic and genuinely think "Ahh yes, so Jade Raymond is a cock sucking whore", I seriously doubt it.

I can't and won't try and speak for everyone but I found it a bit crude, not really that funny, but I could see the joke they were making. I certainly didn't draw any negative conclusions about Jade. I don't know her but I certainly don't now think any less of her.

I think there are a lot of people reading way too much into this, besides CoffeEdge has already won the thread, so deal with it :) .
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Seriously, though. Just deal with it.[/quote]

I'm intrigued with your ability to simultaneously claim that it's not offensive, yet recognize how it can be considered offensive, and also admit that, even if it is offensive, those who think so should just "deal with it." You've covered all the options there, that's for certain.

Huh. I guess I just wasn't aware that jokes should only exist for the sole purpose of social betterment and improvement of inter-group relations.

As Rei no Otaku said earlier, though in different terms: We get what we call "lulz," which is a corruption of "LOL," which stands for "laugh out loud."
Click to expand...

Don't put words in my mouth or ignore the context to which I was referring. Rei, or you, or whomever made the comparison b/w this and "Uncle Ruckus" ignored the context of satire in the case of the latter. As I said earlier, not all comedy is satire, so you really need not bring this point up again. I'll make quite clear, though, that of course not all comedy serves to improve the social conditions of the world. Satire, in the form of Uncle Ruckus, serves to take racist images and attitudes, and turn them on their head. It is not the "uncle tom" aspect of the character that is comic; it is his blind obedience to larger social norms, and his unwillingness to challenge those things that are considered racist in our society. This comic serves no such similarly noble purpose.

IOW, there's a reason for the kind of joke in the case of Ruckus that does not exist for this. Don't be thick.

Ten pages in, and you're still missing one of the fundamental points of the entire thing. Jade Raymond was not criticized in the cartoon simply for being a woman (attractive or not) working in the videogame industry. Had she been the anonymous figure that 99.9% of videogame producers are, the cartoon would never have existed. Had Raymond only been seen doing the typical promo duties that videogame producers perform, such as a few interviews here and there, maybe a couple level walkthroughs at trade shows, the comic still would never have existed (or at least, pretty damn likely wouldn't have existed).

The reason the comic exists, is because Ubisoft has been shoving Jade Raymond in our faces for the better part of a year, using her image and yes, her sex appeal, to draw attention to Assassin's Creed seemingly at every turn. She's gotten more media face time in the past six months than Miyamoto, Wright, and Molyneux combined. Probably only Phil Harrison and Kaz Hirai have been more played out in the media lately, and *psst*, that's just because people like to laugh at them.
Click to expand...

Prove it; I've heard her name, I've seen a photo or two of her, but where has she been "whored out"? You, and others, have alluded to her omnipresence in the media, but I simply haven't seen it. I could claim that Yoot Saito has been all over the press for the past few months too; knowing that, at least give me some of the cases in which her name and face have been plastered everywhere. I'm not buying it at all.

Second, show me how she's been used different from other gloryhog producers (like those you mention above) such that the "whore" moniker and jokes are appropriate. She certainly doesn't appear to be sporting the 1986-style country club mistress cocktail dresses that Ann Coulter sports. I'm not seeing Maxim shoots, or things of that nature. I'm seeing a modestly dressed woman who produces a video game, who has a game she wants to promote, and has a modicum of greater popularity in the industry than most producers (which is conflated with the high profile this game has compared with, say, Ubisoft's "Petz" series). That's what I see. You, and others, seem convinced that Ubisoft is paying her to poledance on your front lawn to promote Assassin's Creed, and there is simply no supporting evidence to back up your claim.

Which is pretty critical, since the "Ubisoft pimped her out to sex up development" claim is the crux of what some people are using to justify the context of the comic in question. If that's not a sustainable claim (about her being used for promotion in a hypersexual way), then you really have nothing whatsoever to stand on other than falling back on "deal with it."

Maybe I'm exaggerating, but at the very least, there is simply no way to deny that Ubisoft was excessive in their use of Raymond (and her image) to promote AC. They overdid it. Raymond isn't even an incredibly important industry figure (all she's done is some TV hosting, a couple programming jobs as Sony, and producing one A-list game), and yet she's gotten many times as much media attention (largely by Ubi's own devices) as female industry figures who are many times as signifigant as she is.

She's not getting made fun of because she's a woman working in the games industry. She's being made fun of because of how (intentionally) over-exposed her image has become during the promotion of Assassin's Creed. The comic does nothing to "keep down" women working in the games business; it serves only to aptly parody and mock this one individual case of a woman's image being over-used to hype a game, not to lambaste and demean all game-industry women simply for being game-industry women. The cartoonist demonstrates no blind, baseless contempt for all women in the game industry. He simply noticed, as many have, this one case of a woman being over-exposed for her looks, rather than her prowess as a game producer.
Click to expand...

Again, prove it.

Being a woman in the game industry does not guarantee you a life of ridicule, contempt, and being the butt of crude jokes. I mean, how many crude jokes or "dick-sucking" cartoons have you seen regarding, oh, for instance...
Paulina Bozek (producer and director of Singstar), or Rima Brek (AI programmer for Rainbow Six), or Jane Cavanagh (co-founder and CEO of SCi, and CEO of Eidos), or Linda Currie (co-founder of Sirtech, creators of Wizardry, and producer of Jagged Alliance), or Erin Hoffman (best known as the infamous "ea_spouse," but also a game designer herself working on the DS versions of Marvel Trading Card Game and Puzzle Quest), or Ayami Kojima (the legendary artist for post-Symphony of the Night Castlevania games), or Arcadia Kim (product development director on several Sim series at Maxis, as well as for EA's Lord of the Rings games), or Shara Miller (producer at LucasArts on Mercenaries, Star Wars Battlefront, and ThrillVille), or Rhianna Pratchett (Story designer and writer for Overlord and Heavenly Sword; PS, here's another pic, because I think she's really quite nice-looking), or Shannon Studstill (the gorgeous producer of God of War, who I've also deemed worthy of a second pic)?

Lemme answer that for you: None. And you wanna know why? Because they weren't paraded around by their employers to draw attention to any of the games they worked on. And it's not because they aren't good-looking. I'd say that every last one of the fine upstanding ladies that I mentioned is, at the very least, pretty damned easy on the eyes. And Shannon Studstill, Rhianna Pratchett, and Paulina Bozek are all downright gorgeous, as far as I'm concerned.

I mean, Shannon Studstill is producer on God of frigging War, a way bigger game than Assassin's Creed will ever be, and probably twice as hyped during the lead-ins to release, and you never saw any comics insinuating that she would suck your dick if you bought the game. Same goes for Paulina Bozek, who's Singstar franchise is a multi-million seller (in Europe anyways).

They're both gorgeous, and yet, you don't see them criticized in the same way as Raymond. Gee, I guess it might have something to do with how Sony never flooded the media with images of them in order to build hype for their games!

Also, you'll notice that I was mostly trying to stick to producers and the like in that list, to maintain similarity to Raymond's role. If you start to include women working in more executive positions at game companies, you'll find other fine ladies like Beth Llewelyn (senior director of PR at Nintendo), the lovely Yasmin Naboa (VP of sales at Ubisoft), and Elizabeth Loverso (director of product development for Red Storm), all of whom are thus far free from being the butt of dick-sucking jokes, because once again, they aren't pimped by their employers.


Yeah, except I think that I think that the Jade Raymond fiasco is a negative merit against the game. Try as we might, many people find it difficult, or impossible, not to let external factors affect our judgment of a game. I'll never be able to completely disregard the whole over-use of Raymonds image in the promotion of AC, in my judgment of the game. It was an ugly thing, in my opinion, and it it a mark against the game, though on a meta-level.

And why can't we make fun of something like Raymond's over-exposure, regardless of the game's merits? Whether it's a great or a shitty game, that doesn't change how her image was over-exposed to draw attention to Assassin's Creed.
Click to expand...

I'm glad to see that other women aren't ridiculed so much as Raymond. Nevertheless, examples to the contrary don't suddenly make Raymond's treatment okay. Maybe this kind of garbage will stop when you get more female producers who take on the public face like Raymond (again, seeing as how high-profile males aren't mocked in this way). Someone has to break the ice, I suppose.
 
[quote name='benjamouth']Geez, did anyone really look at that comic and genuinely think "Ahh yes, so Jade Raymond is a cock sucking whore", I seriously doubt it.[/QUOTE]
Actually I did. After reading the comic I immediately left a message on her voicemail asking what her rates were. Then I got drunk and beat my wife.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']In my opinion, Jade Raymond allowing herself to be pimped by Ubisoft in order to draw attention to Assassin's Creed is a very, very negative thing for the industry. Using the sex appeal of an employee, while probably not as bad as having a stark raving lunatic lawyer running around with delusions of grandeur, thinking that he can somehow shut down the industry or whatever, is still pretty damned lame.
[/QUOTE]

Nice try at confusing the issue. This comic does NOT attack Ubisoft's practice of "pimping" Jade Raymond as MUCH as it DOES attack Jade Raymond's character. A comic that made fun of Ubisoft using her looks would have featured something like a boardroom discussion with executives pitching ludicrous promotional opportunities for AC that clearly had nothing to do with leveraging the game but instead focused on Jade's appearance. That would be a form of social commentary that directly addresses that issue.

I agree that Ubisoft using JR is not a healthy thing for women in the industry. But also consider that this speaks to a larger issue in the way we objectify women. Also JR was in little position to do anything about this if she wanted to keep her job.

In short the cartoon is in extremely poor taste and there's no justification for it.

Additionally, all the people who keep saying "LUL UBISOFT IS JUST INCREASING PUBLICITIEZ" you need to realize that that's EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT. Any kind of press is good press. Sick & true.
 
I think it's great that a big corporation's move to quash unflattering parody with a lawsuit backfired.

I would never know about this dopey cartoon or the shadier-then-usual marketing of AC without the lawsuit.

To me it's instant karma - they tried to shut down free speech and got royally pimp slapped. Unfortunately little Jade is collateral damage, but that's what happens when you act like a pawn for The Man.
 
[quote name='getmyrunon']Nice try at confusing the issue. This comic does NOT attack Ubisoft's practice of "pimping" Jade Raymond as MUCH as it DOES attack Jade Raymond's character. A comic that made fun of Ubisoft using her looks would have featured something like a boardroom discussion with executives pitching ludicrous promotional opportunities for AC that clearly had nothing to do with leveraging the game but instead focused on Jade's appearance. That would be a form of social commentary that directly addresses that issue. [/quote] Except that would be a really stupid and boring comic that wouldn't really get any buzz at all. No offense.

The whole point was to point out that Ubisoft using Jade to lure in MALE gamers with her female charms and her gender. From all the talk before the comic came about, it seems like Jade didn't even really have shit to do with AC aside from promoting it using herself. To do so, she was basically whoring herself out in a sense.

Why'd it generate so much noise? Because it was completely different from just about all other web comics that would simply try a predictable "LOL I INSULT U BY BASHIN UR OPININS WITH WIMSICLE COMIC ACTS!". It was something a whole lot of people never would have seen coming. Not to mention, it's also because Ubisoft actually responded to it.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'm really failing to see how people can be both aware of how horrible active biases can be and also putting together the nauseating "niggersaurus" thread that was on CAG a day or two ago.[/quote]

Because a great many people think it is funny. And I think it is emblematic of a nearly pathological desire to see racism in people that you take that as a conclusion that nearly every person in 4chan, ED, whatever is racist. It is simply not a reasonable assumption to make. There's a joke there, and you aren't getting it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top