Ubisoft's new DRM cracked in under 25 hours

I don't buy the "sales are harmed" argument, because it suggests gamers have will power - which I believe they do not.

If you can find evidence that they aren't buying AC2 at all (as opposed to buying/playing it on a console), I'm all ears.

BFBC2 has been out for what - 4 days? And is largely online? That's an awful comparison.
 
[quote name='Lice']I really think "It hurts the consumer" bit is a bit over exaggerated. People who buy it, will play it, beat it and move on. If your net goes down, figure it out. If its down then you have more problems than if you can play AC2. I have never lost the net, its like electricity now a days. Cant be without it. Ubisoft servers are down? How often really? Come on. [/QUOTE]

Problem is, there's a very real subset of people who won't be able to play this game due to this - the armed forces. If they have a few minutes of down time on their boat/in their camp and they want to play this game, they simply can't.

Also, if this game doesn't sell well, I'm pretty sure it'll be more because of a much later release date and retailing for a full $24 bucks more than the console versions are on Amazon.
 
[quote name='Hydro2Oxide']This thread needs some music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PaoLy7PHwk[/QUOTE]

Yeaaa boy. That song is the shit! I downloaded it the other day.

[quote name='mykevermin']This kind of practice is pretty good at controlling criminal behavior in the real world. For instance, those stupid red "clubs" people put on their car steering wheels? Whether they worked functionally or not, would-be car theives wouldn't bother with the added effort of getting around it. Of course, with car theft, time is a major factor that isn't present in the digital world.

But historically, efforts at "target hardening" in the digital era have virtually always hurt the consumer and have been, at worst, mild nuisances to those who criminally steal anyway - at best, they're efforts for those folks to hone their skills and test their abilities. For cracking communities, new DRM measures are a welcome thing, as it gives them an opportunity to practice their hobby.

I'm not necessarily against or in favor of DRM - I certainly think any "rape" metaphors are crude and vastly overstated here - and I also believe any "woe is me" arguments about how you as consumers are harmed is vastly overstated. But I do recognize that DRM attempts are largely futile. I don't think they always will be, though.[/QUOTE]

In all honesty, I've never said "DRM is the only answer" and I don't think it is full proof whatsoever. It has the same effectiveness as putting a lock on your front door, if somebody wants to get in... they will get in. But, you cannot fault the folks for trying if their house got broken into every single day. My only real problem with this entire "piracy debate" is the folks that are persecuting the developers for trying anything.

They want to make a profit, and they're going to try to protect that any way they can. And saying DRM has more of an effect than piracy on the, "Average consumer" is negligible. They are both there because of the other, so it blows my mind that people decide to attack the developers. Like if they stop doing DRM piracy will stop. I'd start at the root of it and place blame on the pirates - but, it's because for the most part a majority of the people (on the internet) are pirating games and getting that justification satisfaction is worth something, so they try to make any developer making a game they want into a "big bad black evil corporation! Steal from the man!".

And when I hear, "I'm so glad this DRM failed." kind of negates your arguments. I mean, if this DRM actually worked (never going to happen) and Piracy was stopped (lol) why would that be bad? It would be worth the possibility of losing seconds of your game time. Just how I feel.

[quote name='Salamando3000']Problem is, there's a very real subset of people who won't be able to play this game due to this - the armed forces. If they have a few minutes of down time on their boat/in their camp and they want to play this game, they simply can't.

Also, if this game doesn't sell well, I'm pretty sure it'll be more because of a much later release date and retailing for a full $24 bucks more than the console versions are on Amazon.[/QUOTE]

I have a friend that is over there and one that recently came back and they RARELY have gaming computers. They all generally have 360's and are constantly system linked.
 
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[quote name='mykevermin']BFBC2 has been out for what - 4 days? And is largely online? That's an awful comparison.[/QUOTE]

You said PC gaming is dwindling, I gave facts on a recent release that has done stunningly well on the PC. I don't see the problem here.
 
[quote name='Rollett']All this Ubi bashing and is EA not doing the same with with C&C4 ?[/QUOTE]

Ubi is getting the blunt of the bash for a few reasons. One, all their PC games will carry this DRM for now on, two these are single player only (or close too only) games, while it sucks to have to be online to play C&C 4 online....it is a primarily multiplayer game/franchise really, and last C&C universe sucks balls now with the direction EA has taken it.
 
[quote name='Hydro2Oxide']You said PC gaming is dwindling, I gave facts on a recent release that has done stunningly well on the PC. I don't see the problem here.[/QUOTE]

the exception doesn't make the rule. One successful retail game doesn't mean the collective is doing well.
 
[quote name='Hydro2Oxide']You said PC gaming is dwindling, I gave facts on a recent release that has done stunningly well on the PC. I don't see the problem here.[/QUOTE]
Yea, I think there are a bunch of PC games that are not affected by piracy: Online only games, casual games (Sims ect.), MMORPG's and Valve games. And this is the only time I'd say piracy is actually beneficial; in BFBC2's case. Steal the game > play through the single player > liked it > want to play online? Buy it.

But, I'm hoping this conversation is mainly about the majority of games that release that do not lie in those categories.

[quote name='kilm']the exception doesn't make the rule. One successful retail game doesn't mean the collective is doing well.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. But that's what keep capitalism moving, that unexplainable notion.

[quote name='kilm']It's his typical trolling posts about not buying games or some nonsensical stuff.

DRM getting cracked, PC games getting downloaded... how is this news? Are we going to make new threads for every new game that appears on torrents now? At least the PC subforums are going to get more active if just by a little bit.
[/QUOTE]
Yes. This is all I want. No more talking about it! Nobody here is going to convince the other, it's an ethical discussion not a preference.
 
PC gaming is far from dying, anyone who honestly thinks that is a fool.

The platform is quickly adopting digital distribution now and retail sales have went down due to that, digital sales aren't publicly displayed.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I don't buy the "sales are harmed" argument, because it suggests gamers have will power - which I believe they do not.

If you can find evidence that they aren't buying AC2 at all (as opposed to buying/playing it on a console), I'm all ears.

BFBC2 has been out for what - 4 days? And is largely online? That's an awful comparison.[/QUOTE]
well you could look at games like spore(with its heavy DRM) and mw2(wich spat in gamers faces) both sold much poorer than other games in their genre.
In fact a majority of the best selling pc games have no invasive drm and are easy to pirate.
[quote name='mykevermin']What's your source for sales figures on a 4-day old game?[/QUOTE]
1. he said user's not sales, read please.
2. um the game developers?
 
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[quote name='mykevermin']I don't buy the "sales are harmed" argument, because it suggests gamers have will power - which I believe they do not.

If you can find evidence that they aren't buying AC2 at all (as opposed to buying/playing it on a console), I'm all ears.

BFBC2 has been out for what - 4 days? And is largely online? That's an awful comparison.[/QUOTE]
I'm living proof that gamers have willpower, but I'm only one person.

And how is BFBC2 being online a horrible comparison? The way this DRM works is the exact same because when the EA stat servers go down, you get dropped from whatever game you were in. It's a headache when it happens and for an offline, single-player game (like AC2 or Splinter Cell) it's completely unnecessary.
 
Lots of contingencies to keep in mind here, including
1) online players ≠ sales, as much as it's stunning to think there would be that many console purchasers who aren't playing online yet
2) BFBC2's PC release was day-and-date with the console versions, whereas AC2 is 4 months after the console versions. Surprisingly to me, given the complaints about the PC version, it looks like it hasn't been released yet. Is that true, it comes out Tuesday and hasn't been available elsewhere yet? That strikes me as odd, given the complaints its garnered.

EDIT: As for MW2, putting a $10 premium on a PC title along with no centralized server make it extremely hard to point the finger at DRM if that was the point you're trying to make.
 
LOL at the servers going down making it impossible for people who actually bought the game to play it. When are companies going to learn that DRM is never the solution especially the kind that Ubisoft implemented.
 
Here's the deal with piracy and the current "fuck PC pirates gamers" stance from some certain developers.

They are using piracy as an excuse to do one or all of the following A) snuff out second hand sales, B) put less effort into their product and C) escape the PC market which is more fractured than consoles.

As a result, consumers are detecting this contempt towards them which is forcing them into one of these actions A) fuck me? fuck them...I'm just going to take it, B) I'm not supporting that type of actions, no sale or C) I'm going to buy it on *insert console* instead. All 3 result in lower sales for PC games. It is a self-filling prophecy for publishers.

What's selling to the hardcore PC gamers? The games made by publishers that actually care about them. You take care of us and we'll take care of you. Valve, DICE, Blizzard, CD Projekt are all publishers that are laughing to the bank by simply being gracious to their customers and delivering a good product.

Doing something stupid like this type of DRM or leaving out a major feature (Prince Of Persia missing the ending DLC or Sonic and SEGA All Stars Racing missing the multiplayer feature) due to the fear of piracy will only cause a person like me who would buy it, not buy it or if I want it bad enough, steal it.
 
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[quote name='Sporadic']Here's the deal with piracy and the current "fuck PC pirates gamers" stance from some certain developers.

They are using piracy as an excuse to do one or all of the following A) snuff out second hand sales, B) put less effort into their product and C) escape the PC market which is more fractured than consoles.

As a result, consumers are detecting this contempt towards them which is forcing them into one of these actions A) fuck me? fuck them...I'm just going to take it, B) I'm not supporting that type of actions, no sale or C) I'm going to buy it on *insert console* instead. All 3 result in lower sales for PC games. It is a self-filling prophecy for publishers.

What's selling to the hardcore PC gamers? The games made by publishers that actually care about them. You take care of us and we'll take care of you. Valve, DICE, Blizzard, CD Projekt are all publishers that are laughing to the bank by simply being gracious to their customers and delivering a good product.

Doing something stupid like this type of DRM or leaving out a major feature (Prince Of Persia missing the ending DLC or Sonic and SEGA All Stars Racing missing the multiplayer feature) due to the fear of piracy will only cause a person like me who would buy it, not buy it or if I want it bad enough, steal it.[/QUOTE]


I agree completely with what you said.

Some people have said that there is a need for drm to prevent "casual piracy". I agree with that too. But what does it take to stop "Joe Six Pack" from pirating a game? A CD Key combined with a disc check is good enough to stop this. And yes, that won't stop the hardcore pirates, but what does? The new, complex and user unfriendly forms of drm (and dd also) are put in place to stop second hand sales.

And the scary thing is, these same clowns are now setting their sights to do the same thing on consoles. :cry:
 
Bah, Sporadic pirates stuff, so I'm not convinced that he can give an unbiased perspective - which is, of course, inherent in his demonize-the-industry viewpoint.

Post-hoc justification is all that is.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']

EDIT: As for MW2, putting a $10 premium on a PC title along with no centralized server make it extremely hard to point the finger at DRM if that was the point you're trying to make.[/QUOTE]
Um no I said spit in gamers faces. It's realated to DRM because DRM also spits in gamers faces.

If you think DRM doesn't affect sales show us some examples of games with invasive DRM that are successful.

[quote name='mykevermin']Bah, Sporadic pirates stuff, so I'm not convinced that he can give an unbiased perspective - which is, of course, inherent in his demonize-the-industry viewpoint.

Post-hoc justification is all that is.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a post-hoc justification to ignore a valid point
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Bah, Sporadic pirates stuff, so I'm not convinced that he can give an unbiased perspective - which is, of course, inherent in his demonize-the-industry viewpoint.

Post-hoc justification is all that is.[/QUOTE]

We all have at least some bias in our opinions.

I'll admit it. My biggest beef with modern drm and digital downloads is the fact that they pretty much eliminate second hand sales. I'm a CAG through and through and like saving money buying used games.

Tell me, do you really think that eliminating reselling is just an after-thought or considered a "bonus" when it comes to this?
 
Not all DRM eliminates reselling; the recent EA initiative w/ Dragon Age and a couple other titles (I think) aim to specifically boost new sales and not used sales. It's not at all the same thing as DRM, though I suppose it can be considered a form of it. Sony took this and ran with it in their online codes for the new PSP Socom.

As for "DRM invasive," you'd have to define that for me. As I've already pointed out in this thread, I've used Macs almost my entire life - so for me, I've almost never used my computer for gaming. Never really had the opportunity to. Some people think requiring the disc in your drive to play is "invasive," others might draw the line all the way up to Sony rootkits. It's a moving target. So as someone with little experience (outside of my recent PS3 fiasco), I'll let you define, for me, what you view as "invasive" DRM.

mogamer, you bring up an interesting point in terms of digital delivery. That indeed kills second hand sales; but as most of us here have bought and do buy our titles online, attempting to find equivalency is phony. A few folks have noted that Steam is flourishing in this PC market, so if DD = DRM, then the arguments many here have made condemning DRM are dabbling quite deeply in what they condemn.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']As for "DRM invasive," you'd have to define that for me. As I've already pointed out in this thread, I've used Macs almost my entire life - so for me, I've almost never used my computer for gaming. Never really had the opportunity to. Some people think requiring the disc in your drive to play is "invasive," others might draw the line all the way up to Sony rootkits. It's a moving target. So as someone with little experience (outside of my recent PS3 fiasco), I'll let you define, for me, what you view as "invasive" DRM.[/QUOTE]

Here's my criteria for "invasive" (or at least just Bad) DRM. In general though, if the DRM doesn't prevent piracy and hurts legitimate users, it's bad.

1) DRM installs something onto my computer without my permission. This was a big part of the Sony Rootkit. Audio CD's would autoplay and run the program without user consent.

2) If I uninstall the game from my System, the DRM is not removed as well. See SecuROM. This is doubly bad if there is no easy way to remove the DRM at all.

3) The DRM opens up vulnerabilities to Malware and/or breaks normal computer operations.

4) The DRM only allows for a set number of "activations", and uses very loose terms as to what an activation is. Some games require an activation for each user account, or require a new activation any time you change the hardware profile. Some can burn up an activation during install, but if the install fails for some reason, does not return one.

5) More generally, the DRM prevents a legitimate user from playing the game when the only reason is because of the DRM. See #4 and Ubisoft's DRM.

I'm sure people have more things they can add to this.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Not all DRM eliminates reselling; the recent EA initiative w/ Dragon Age and a couple other titles (I think) aim to specifically boost new sales and not used sales. It's not at all the same thing as DRM, though I suppose it can be considered a form of it. Sony took this and ran with it in their online codes for the new PSP Socom.

As for "DRM invasive," you'd have to define that for me. As I've already pointed out in this thread, I've used Macs almost my entire life - so for me, I've almost never used my computer for gaming. Never really had the opportunity to. Some people think requiring the disc in your drive to play is "invasive," others might draw the line all the way up to Sony rootkits. It's a moving target. So as someone with little experience (outside of my recent PS3 fiasco), I'll let you define, for me, what you view as "invasive" DRM.

mogamer, you bring up an interesting point in terms of digital delivery. That indeed kills second hand sales; but as most of us here have bought and do buy our titles online, attempting to find equivalency is phony. A few folks have noted that Steam is flourishing in this PC market, so if DD = DRM, then the arguments many here have made condemning DRM are dabbling quite deeply in what they condemn.[/QUOTE]

Salamando3000 summed it up pretty nicely.

As for me, I don't consider the dlc that EA has been offering with new games to be a form of drm. I just consider it a bonus for buying new. Now not allowing the game where that bonus content has been added to, to be played if EA's servers go down (as recently happened), is what I consider drm. And pretty invasive drm at that.

Like I already mentioned, CD Key and disc check are fine. I know that companies need to prevent casual piracy. And I feel that is effective for doing that. Digital downloads technically aren't a form of drm. But according to most EULAs, that content can't be transferred to someone else.

Any game that needs to "call home" or only works when activated with a user account is too invasive for me. That means GFWL, Steam and Ubisofts online only systems aren't to my liking.
 
I don't understand why PC games can't be just like console games. Why is that so hard? I supposed it is easier to pirate games on PC than most consoles, but even console hacking/modding is not very hard. DRM is crossing my boundaries when more than a simple disk check is needed. I don't want limited installs/activations. I don't want to have to make an online account (for single player game play). I don't want extra programs to be installed that are used for the game. When creating these DRM methods, they need to realize that the people who crack DRM methods, don't get paid. These guys/girls do this for fun/ as a hobby. They can't beat them. It usually takes them less than a week to have a working release.
 
Amazing how these discussions always go nowhere, yet they never cease. No one's going to be convinced of anything, no one's even listening or reading these things seriously.

So what's the point? To be heard, express your heart-felt opinion on an issue you feel like is serious, and pretend you have an audience? Isn't that the point of blogs?

http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/blog.php
 
[quote name='kilm']Amazing how these discussions always go nowhere, yet they never cease. No one's going to be convinced of anything, no one's even listening or reading these things seriously.

So what's the point? To be heard, express your heart-felt opinion on an issue you feel like is serious, and pretend you have an audience? Isn't that the point of blogs?

http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/blog.php[/QUOTE]


People are having a discussion, that is what forums are for. Your post is perfect blog material though as you don't wish to discuss but simply make a statement.
 
[quote name='KaOTiK']People are having a discussion, that is what forums are for. Your post is perfect blog material though as you don't wish to discuss but simply make a statement.[/QUOTE]

In case you couldn't read into it, let me make it clear.

/thread

There is no discussion.

This particular thread goes no where. It's just a collection of repeated opinions that don't change. Good try, though.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']Sounds like a post-hoc justification to ignore a valid point[/QUOTE]

Just ignore him. He will almost always take the opposite viewpoint of me to try and get attention.
 
[quote name='Salamando3000']Here's my criteria for "invasive" (or at least just Bad) DRM. In general though, if the DRM doesn't prevent piracy and hurts legitimate users, it's bad.

1) DRM installs something onto my computer without my permission. This was a big part of the Sony Rootkit. Audio CD's would autoplay and run the program without user consent.

2) If I uninstall the game from my System, the DRM is not removed as well. See SecuROM. This is doubly bad if there is no easy way to remove the DRM at all.

3) The DRM opens up vulnerabilities to Malware and/or breaks normal computer operations.

4) The DRM only allows for a set number of "activations", and uses very loose terms as to what an activation is. Some games require an activation for each user account, or require a new activation any time you change the hardware profile. Some can burn up an activation during install, but if the install fails for some reason, does not return one.

5) More generally, the DRM prevents a legitimate user from playing the game when the only reason is because of the DRM. See #4 and Ubisoft's DRM.

I'm sure people have more things they can add to this.[/QUOTE]

Some good suggestions to start.

Reminds me of the problems...Lotus, I think (some office suite maker)...had in the 1980's. Trying to stave off piracy, they manufactured a dongle that had to be physically plugged into the PC in order for the software to boot up. Folks who cracked the game didn't need the dongle, so they weren't hurt at all. Meanwhile, folks who bought the software kept losing the damned things (I'm not sure what it looked like, but I suspect it was similar in size/style to a USB thumb drive) - so legit users ended up being hurt.

#3 is a particularly prescient point.

When you see information like this, though, the picture becomes more interesting:
http://torrentfreak.com/the-most-pirated-games-of-2009-091227/

Now I think the numbers of downloads are most likely overestimates. They almost certainly can't be underestimates. We don't know if they include partial downloads, repeat downloads, folks who downloaded but couldn't get the software to work, and so forth. But 1.8m for SFIV? 2.3m for Prototype? I'm sure MW2 sold well on the PC, and perhaps even sold over 4 million copies - but I also imagine that these downloads, taken at face value, at some point easily eclipse the total sales of PC software. Not to mention as we already discussed, MW2 doesn't have the same kind of damning DRM that AC2 does; what do these downloads tell us?

First, the idea of the noble pirate who only takes those things they consider invasive or unfair is wholly untrue. Pirates aren't stealing software from companies whose DRM practices they disagree with; they steal software from anyone with no genuine concern for their business practices.

Second, a corollary of the first point is necessarily that the idea that PC gamers who would steal from "bad DRM" companies but *pay* for software from companies they support is not true. These numbers show that the bulk of PC gamers will just steal with no remorse, with no concern for the company.

Third, the raw numbers of titles being downloaded and played for free easily equates to hundreds of millions of dollars. There's little question that blockbusters like MW2 were profitable (I mean on the PC alone, not the *b*illions they made across all platforms). But I'm highly skeptical that Prototype turned a profit on the PC - and as a consequence, those 2.3 million downloads represent nearly $100 million that Activision did not get for their game. When we wail and moan about Activision churning out the same games year after year, beating those horses until they die, and how they should take chances on new IP - let us remember that piracy got in the way of the profitability of one of the chances Activision did take. They took a chance, and they were taken for a ride; the message to them was clear: don't take chances, you're not going to turn a profit on it. Not on the PC, anyway.

I'm not an advocate of DRM; but nor am I going to support these self-serving "damn the man" arguments that are so absurdly full of untruths. Some of you do pirate; some of you do not. To treat this issue as inherently about the problems only one side contributes to this decades long tete-a-tete between PC gamers and PC game developers is misguided and biased. Some companies create real problems with their attempts at DRM; some pirates cause problems by making the PC a less than profitable platform to develop on. Only pointing the finger at one side is what I don't understand about some of you.

There's no such fucking thing as a noble pirate. Just a self-justifying selfish pig.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']But I'm highly skeptical that Prototype turned a profit on the PC - and as a consequence, those 2.3 million downloads represent nearly $100 million that Activision did not get for their game.

There's no such fucking thing as a noble pirate. Just a self-justifying selfish pig.[/QUOTE]

And trying to say that every download is a lost sale is fucking insanity.
 
So, whoever said this was just a ploy by Ubisoft to end their career on making PC games could be right. How did they fail so hard? I take back all my previous statements and say, yes you should pirate Assassins Creed 2. That's bullshit.
 
Seems like there is actually no crack in place yet... looked at some of the torrent sites and a lot of them are having problems getting it to work.
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']Seems like there is actually no crack in place yet... looked at some of the torrent sites and a lot of them are having problems getting it to work.[/QUOTE]
Yep and people are speculating that the DDOS attacks are retaliation. Ubisoft's servers are down AGAIN and people have already begun the Amazon 1-starring BTW. Can't say they didn't have it coming TBH!
 
That's the kind of one-sidedness I'm speaking of. You may disagree with Ubisoft, but you're blaming the victim of cybercrime here. Voice your opinion by not buying the game, not committing a felony by hacking their servers.
 
I'm confused... so people are complaining that they don't want this DRM because the servers might get put down and then you could not play... but then they put the servers down so people could not play. It's like a plot line of LOST or something. The past thems are complaining about something the future thems are doing.

AND if it is actually working, then isn't this a great stride for PC gaming? Who cares if it requires you to be online. At least this shuts up the pirates. And I mean unless you arrrr a pirate, then you'd want them to be shut up.
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']I'm confused... so people are complaining that they don't want this DRM because the servers might get put down and then you could not play... but then they put the servers down so people could not play. It's like a plot line of LOST or something. The past thems are complaining about something the future thems are doing.

AND if it is actually working, then isn't this a great stride for PC gaming? Who cares if it requires you to be online. At least this shuts up the pirates. And I mean unless you arrrr a pirate, then you'd want them to be shut up.[/QUOTE]

Pirates are playing on private servers....so how does this affect them?
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']
AND if it is actually working, then isn't this a great stride for PC gaming? Who cares if it requires you to be online. At least this shuts up the pirates. And I mean unless you arrrr a pirate, then you'd want them to be shut up.[/QUOTE]

You failed to see that pirates aren't the ones who care. They are happily playing their "working" copies. They aren't vocal at all. It's the honest (potential) PC gamer getting screwed out of a "high class" game.

Nothing on the internet can be discussed in a mature way, but that is not something new... (That is no way directed at you DarkNessBear, but this thread and forum show things are getting out of hand more and more each day.)
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']I'm confused... so people are complaining that they don't want this DRM because the servers might get put down and then you could not play... but then they put the servers down so people could not play. It's like a plot line of LOST or something. The past thems are complaining about something the future thems are doing. [/QUOTE]

It's not the people that actually bought the game that're attacking Ubi's servers. It's people that are trying to underline the problems with this form of DRM. Also imagine they're trying to force Ubi into abandoning it by getting legitimate customers cheesed off at them.

AND if it is actually working, then isn't this a great stride for PC gaming? Who cares if it requires you to be online. At least this shuts up the pirates. And I mean unless you arrrr a pirate, then you'd want them to be shut up.
Click to expand...
Well, let's assume for a second the "always connected" form of DRM is effective, does prevent a game from being pirated, and always will. It allows companies to kill all other forms of DRM - limited activations, securom, even disc checks. That'd be awesome, but is a mighty big "if". Even if it can't be fixed by something as simple as a no_cd crack, there's probably other ways (including re-routing server requests elsewhere). But, let's roll with this.

First problem, when you need to be connected to play, you need to be connected to play. Server uptime becomes a very real problem. Can't play if you're in an airport. Admittedly, you'd still be able to play 99% of the time. That is, unless you're in the armed forces.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/02/the-victims-of-pc-gaming-drm-one-soldiers-story.ars

I have no problems with companies trying to protect what's there's, as long as it doesn't get in the way of actually trying to use it.
 
[quote name='Megazell']Pirates are playing on private servers....so how does this affect them?[/QUOTE]
It affects them someway because they had to bring down the server for "regular people" and I thought all pirates cared about was the "regular person".

[quote name='Salamando3000']
Well, let's assume for a second the "always connected" form of DRM is effective, does prevent a game from being pirated, and always will. It allows companies to kill all other forms of DRM - limited activations, securom, even disc checks. That'd be awesome, but is a mighty big "if". Even if it can't be fixed by something as simple as a no_cd crack, there's probably other ways (including re-routing server requests elsewhere). But, let's roll with this.

First problem, when you need to be connected to play, you need to be connected to play. Server uptime becomes a very real problem. Can't play if you're in an airport. Admittedly, you'd still be able to play 99% of the time. That is, unless you're in the armed forces.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/02/the-victims-of-pc-gaming-drm-one-soldiers-story.ars

I have no problems with companies trying to protect what's there's, as long as it doesn't get in the way of actually trying to use it.[/QUOTE]

Hmm I guess it is all just what you think is the BIGGEST threat to PC gaming: Pirates or DRM. I'd vote Pirates, though a lot of you here would vote DRM. So there is no real argument here, just ethical views.

[quote name='Bretts31344']You failed to see that pirates aren't the ones who care. They are happily playing their "working" copies. They aren't vocal at all. It's the honest (potential) PC gamer getting screwed out of a "high class" game.

Nothing on the internet can be discussed in a mature way, but that is not something new... (That is no way directed at you DarkNessBear, but this thread and forum show things are getting out of hand more and more each day.)[/QUOTE]

I understand that. But there is currently no working crack. SO not yet...
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']It affects them someway because they had to bring down the server for "regular people" and I thought all pirates cared about was the "regular person".[/QUOTE]

You try to hard to press your point and in the end you discredit yourself and your stance.

A person that steals an item that is considered a want - such as a game...is only thinking of themselves.

The cats that are playing on private servers have NOTHING to do with what's going on the main servers.

Shameful.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']
http://torrentfreak.com/the-most-pirated-games-of-2009-091227/

Now I think the numbers of downloads are most likely overestimates. They almost certainly can't be underestimates. We don't know if they include partial downloads, repeat downloads, folks who downloaded but couldn't get the software to work, and so forth. But 1.8m for SFIV? 2.3m for Prototype?

I'm sure MW2 sold well on the PC, and perhaps even sold over 4 million copies - but I also imagine that these downloads, taken at face value, at some point easily eclipse the total sales of PC software.[/QUOTE]
It supposedly didn't sell that well, but it is hard to know with digital distribution.
[quote name='mykevermin']
Not to mention as we already discussed, MW2 doesn't have the same kind of damning DRM that AC2 does; what do these downloads tell us? [/QUOTE]

No but they did spit in PC gamers faces as mentioned before, so what it tells us is that if you piss of PC gamers your game will be pirated
[quote name='mykevermin']
First, the idea of the noble pirate who only takes those things they consider invasive or unfair is wholly untrue. Pirates aren't stealing software from companies whose DRM practices they disagree with; they steal software from anyone with no genuine concern for their business practices.
[/QUOTE]
If that were true all popular games would be heavily pirated, but that is not the case. Instead games from companies that respect their costumers tend to have higher sales numbers than piracy numbers while companies that treat PC gamers like crap tend to have higher piracy numbers than sales numbers.
[quote name='mykevermin']
Second, a corollary of the first point is necessarily that the idea that PC gamers who would steal from "bad DRM" companies but *pay* for software from companies they support is not true. These numbers show that the bulk of PC gamers will just steal with no remorse, with no concern for the company.
[/QUOTE]
1.4 million people is not the bulk of pc gamers
2. Again if people where stealing what ever they wanted then the list of best selling PC games of 2009 should match up with the list of most pirated games of 2009, but they don't.

[quote name='mykevermin']
Third, the raw numbers of titles being downloaded and played for free easily equates to hundreds of millions of dollars. There's little question that blockbusters like MW2 were profitable (I mean on the PC alone, not the *b*illions they made across all platforms). But I'm highly skeptical that Prototype turned a profit on the PC - and as a consequence, those 2.3 million downloads represent nearly $100 million that Activision did not get for their game. When we wail and moan about Activision churning out the same games year after year, beating those horses until they die, and how they should take chances on new IP - let us remember that piracy got in the way of the profitability of one of the chances Activision did take. They took a chance, and they were taken for a ride; the message to them was clear: don't take chances, you're not going to turn a profit on it. Not on the PC, anyway.
[/QUOTE]
Plenty of companies are able to make a profit on the PC(the ones that treat their customers with respect), so if these companies can't too bad for them.
[quote name='mykevermin']
I'm not an advocate of DRM; but nor am I going to support these self-serving "damn the man" arguments that are so absurdly full of untruths. Some of you do pirate; some of you do not. To treat this issue as inherently about the problems only one side contributes to this decades long tete-a-tete between PC gamers and PC game developers is misguided and biased. Some companies create real problems with their attempts at DRM; some pirates cause problems by making the PC a less than profitable platform to develop on. Only pointing the finger at one side is what I don't understand about some of you.

There's no such fucking thing as a noble pirate. Just a self-justifying selfish pig.[/QUOTE]
It seems you don't understand the situation at all, you're ignoring points that prove you wrong with, and ranting rather than making counter points. So why don't go back to the vs. forum and babel about how some black guy got bad service at the DMV so the DMV must be racist.
 
1) Oh, I see this is some personal thing you got for me now? Who are you anyway? Did I disagree with you in the vs forum? And you took it personally, I see. For shame.

2) You're disregarding the very point that those games listed as the "most pirated" represent a broad swath of DRM types and distribution types. You continue to try to frame this issue as the noble, virtuous PC gamers who defend their territory against the nefarious hardline-DRM publishers but will stand by those who do not "spit in gamers' faces" with DRM or other whatever-it-is you want to call your perpetually revised target so you don't have to concede an argument.

The numbers above in terms of the most pirated games don't show a pattern of discrimination (haha!) that make DRM-heavy games the most likely victims. It shows PC games that people want to play. It outright refutes the idea that how a company treats a game impacts the piracy rate. You know, but refuse to admit, that there's one thing that unites PC games that are pirated: being a PC game.

Moreover, you conflate turning a profit with maximizing profit; you say "too bad" for Activision and Prototype. Did they usher in a new, damning form of DRM with that game? Did they "spit in gamers' faces" with the release of it? You are the one who can't handle an argument - confronted with examples, conclusions and corollaries, you don't even make the basest effort to genuinely combat the points. Your entire post is one variation of the intellectual equivalent of "eh, whatever" after another.

You have no base to stand on to support the idea that DRM is a causal link that leads to a greater likelihood of piracy.
 
All I have to say is, Revo-lu-shi-on!!!

Anyway, hope Ubisoft realizes this isn't the way to go. When people dislike something, especially these Extreme methods of controlling piracy, they REALLY dislike it.

In other news on Ubisoft (Ubi?): Anyone else play the R.U.S.E open Beta?
 
There was a thread on the Ubi forums earlier today that got deleted where a person who actually bought the game found a way around the DRM and was playing the game offline. I don't know all the details since the thread was killed but that was the basic info that I did get from other forums I visit.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']1) Oh, I see this is some personal thing you got for me now? Who are you anyway? Did I disagree with you in the vs forum? And you took it personally, I see. For shame.[/QUOTE]
No your just famous for you black and white views, hipocrisy, not responding to points and changing the subject when called out on something.
[quote name='mykevermin']
2) You're disregarding the very point that those games listed as the "most pirated" represent a broad swath of DRM types and distribution types. You continue to try to frame this issue as the noble, virtuous PC gamers who defend their territory against the nefarious hardline-DRM publishers but will stand by those who do not "spit in gamers' faces" with DRM or other whatever-it-is you want to call your perpetually revised target so you don't have to concede an argument.[/QUOTE]
I said the spit in the gamers faces from the beggening so its not a revsion. And as for making things up show me where I said that pirating the games was noble, show me or admit your the one who making crap up.
[quote name='mykevermin']
The numbers above in terms of the most pirated games don't show a pattern of discrimination (haha!) that make DRM-heavy games the most likely victims. It shows PC games that people want to play. It outright refutes the idea that how a company treats a game impacts the piracy rate. You know, but refuse to admit, that there's one thing that unites PC games that are pirated: being a PC game.[/QUOTE]
Really
here is a list of best selling retail non mmo games of 2008
1. Spore - Electronic Arts
2. Call Of Duty 4: Modern Warfare - Activision
3. The Sims 2 Double Deluxe - Electronic Arts
4. Fallout 3 - Bethesda Softworks
5. Call Of Duty: World At War - Activision
6. The Sims 2 FreeTime - Electronic Arts
7. Sins Of A Solar Empire - Ironclad Games/Stardock
8. Warcraft III Battle Chest - Blizzard
9. The Sims 2 Apartment Life - Electronic Arts
10. Crysis - Crytek/EA
11. Left 4 Dead - Valve
12. Diablo Battle Chest - Blizzard
13. The Orange Box - Valve
Most pirated games of 2008

  1. Spore / 1,700,000 / Sept. 2008
  2. The Sims 2 / 1,150,000 / Sept. 2004
  3. Assassins Creed / 1,070,000 / Nov. 2007(ubisoft blamed their DRM bug for low sales)
  4. Crysis / 940,000 / Nov. 2007
  5. Command & Conquer 3 / 860,000 / Mar. 2007
  6. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare / 830,000 / Nov. 2007
  7. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas / 740,000 / Jun. 2005
  8. Fallout 3 / 645,000 / Oct. 2008
  9. Far Cry 2 / 585,000 / Oct. 2008
  10. Pro Evolution Soccer 2009 / 470,000 / Oct. 2008
best selling retail games of 2009

1. The Sims 3
2. World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King Expansion Pack
3. The Sims 2 Double Deluxe
4. World of Warcraft: Battle Chest
5. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2
6. World of Warcraft Blizzard Entertainment
7. The Sims 3: World Adventures Expansion Pack
8. Spore
9. Dragon Age: Origins
10. Empire: Total War


  1. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 -- 4,100,000
  2. The Sims 3 -- 3,200,000
  3. Prototype -- 2,350,000
  4. Need for Speed Shift -- 2,100,000
  5. Street Fighter 4 -- 1,850,000
Hey look at that most of the best selling games aren't on the most pirated list


[quote name='mykevermin']
Moreover, you conflate turning a profit with maximizing profit;[/QUOTE]
No not really, becuase this is what you said was
[quote name='mykevermin'] you're not going to turn a profit on it. Not on the PC, anyway.
[/QUOTE]
Which of course is wrong.

[quote name='mykevermin']
you say "too bad" for Activision and Prototype. Did they usher in a new, damning form of DRM with that game? Did they "spit in gamers' faces" with the release of it?
[/QUOTE]
I think PC gamers don't like activsion(you know the company that owns infinity ward, milks its franchises rather than innovating, wants to increase the price of games, thinks a company should be run with an atmosphere of “skepticism, pessimism and fear”, constantly pulling douchebag moves like pulling DLC and shutting down fan made projects, and who's ceo is generally referred to as evil, hitler, or the devil. )
[quote name='mykevermin']
You are the one who can't handle an argument - confronted with examples, conclusions and corollaries, you don't even make the basest effort to genuinely combat the points. Your entire post is one variation of the intellectual equivalent of "eh, whatever" after another..[/QUOTE]
Really show me what points I didn't address.
No why don't you explain why there is little correlation between how popular a game is and how much it is pirated.
How a bulk of PC gamers are pirates.
Why companies that reward gamers for having legit copies of games seem to not have trouble with piracy.
[quote name='mykevermin']
You have no base to stand on to support the idea that DRM is a causal link that leads to a greater likelihood of piracy.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'm sure that's why EA removed the DRM from their games after the spore incedent, why Steam is doing so well and why companies are turning to steam as their form of DRM, Why games with intrusive DRM have higher piracy numbers than sales number.
 
cite your source for the best-selling pc games. where did those come from?

you keep coming back to this phony theory that serves as the foundation for your argument - this idea that PC gamers pay when they feel "respected" and they only steal what games "spit in their face."

Which is preposterous; you've done nothing to address that; those lists of top pirated games reinforces that, because the line is clear. you're scared to admit that PC piracy doesn't reflect people taking software that "spits in their face"; they simply take software that they want.. They don't discriminate.

And of all the industry-bashing rah-rah for the felons who hacked Ubi's servers one-sidedness in this thread, you have the gall to call *me* black and white? Son, you got somethin' personal. But I'll let you in on a secret.

you didn't get me anything for valentine's; get outta here.
 
The most torrented lists are compiled from a list of trackers and their users. Users can come from any country in the world. The reason some games may see real high download rates may be because they weren't released in specific regions. Looking at 2008, it helps explain why there's a Soccer game (foreign countries are far more interested in the sport). If the point one's trying to prove is that there's is/isn't a correlation between game demand and piracy, you'd need to use data from the same region (which would be pretty impossible to produce).

Really, there are a ton of reasons why a person may pirate a game, including (but not limited to)
- They feel the game/game maker has "wronged" them (DRM, servers, etc.)
- The game wasn't released in their region
- The game received a toned-down release in their region
- They don't feel the game is worth the price, but still want to play it
- They're bored
- They found out how easy it is
- They're broke
- The game hasn't actually been released yet
- Because they can
 
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