VA Tech tragedy. 33 dead. *Shooter sent photos and video to NBC*

[quote name='zewone']I wish people and the media would stop talking about this incident. This is what that asshole wanted.[/quote]

They'll keep it going as long as they can. The media
 
[quote name='zewone']I wish people and the media would stop talking about this incident. This is what that asshole wanted.[/QUOTE] Well, as awful as it sounds, he earned it.
 
so my cousin just came home from VA Tech until classes start up again. I just got this email from my aunt.

"I pick up Andy today. We just arrived ten minutes ago. He showed me where Cho’s suite and room located in relations to Andy’s room. I was shock how closed he is. Cho stayed with the same dorm and same floor (2nd Floor) with Andy. There rooms are only separated by the elevator (Andy’s on the left Cho’s on the right. They usually met at the stairwell. When Andy forgot his pass key in going home late Cho usually open the door for him when he knocked on the door in the main entrance. Cho usually watching TV show alone at the main floor lounge. When Andy said thanks he just turnaround without acknowledging."


I'm completely freaked out how close this guy lived to my cousin. And that my cousin actually saw him in the dorm regularly.
 
[quote name='moiety']And that is the Nature vs. Nurture debate. Some think it's just nature (genetics, personality), and some think it's all nurture (environment, how you were raised, etc). And some think it's both (myself included). It's impossible to say it is only one thing. You have to decide what makes sense to you.

When it comes to psychology, there's rarely ever one answer.[/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to come off as a jerk here, but nature vs nurture has nothing to do with "choice".
 
[quote name='Moxio']The title says 33...

Oh wait, shit, I just realized the 33rd is the killer himself, right?

Calm down, asshole. I made a mistake.[/QUOTE]


Go screw yourself dumbass. You try to fake caring but failed, most likely like you have failed at everything else.
 
[quote name='David85']Go screw yourself dumbass. You try to fake caring but failed, most likely like you have failed at everything else.[/QUOTE]

:rofl:

I'm sorry, but it must be said:

Boring.
 
[quote name='David85']Go screw yourself dumbass. You try to fake caring but failed, most likely like you have failed at everything else.[/QUOTE]

You, 3kingdoms, msut77, PyroGamer



Mass ban, anyone?
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']You, 3kingdoms, msut77, PyroGamer



Mass ban, anyone?[/quote]Quick! Start an online petition! Those always work! ;)
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']You, 3kingdoms, msut77, PyroGamer



Mass ban, anyone?[/QUOTE]

It'd be nice. It's unfortunate, because unlike Regalsin, these miscreants sound like morons but simply aren't funny like Regal was.
 
[quote name='MadFlava']


I'm completely freaked out how close this guy lived to my cousin. And that my cousin actually saw him in the dorm regularly.
[/quote]

if it makes you feel any better you probably live within a few thousand feet of an alcoholic, a drug addict, a rapist, a wife beater and possibly a murderer
 
[quote name='seanr1221']I'm not trying to come off as a jerk here, but nature vs nurture has nothing to do with "choice".[/quote]
How do you make a choice? Don't you draw upon knowledge and past experience? As I said before, there's no one answer, as there are too many factors that affect a person's decision-making capabilities.

Why don't you explain your thoughts on it? I'd like to hear your opinions. Not trying to be rude either, I just want to understand where you are coming from.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']I'm not trying to come off as a jerk here, but nature vs nurture has nothing to do with "choice".[/quote]
Why don't you explain your thoughts on it? I'd like to hear your opinions. Not trying to be rude either, I just want to understand where you are coming from.
 
[quote name='moiety']Why don't you explain your thoughts on it? I'd like to hear your opinions. Not trying to be rude either, I just want to understand where you are coming from.[/quote]

I think you explained yourself well. I'd like to hear where he is coming from too.
 
[quote name='moiety']Why don't you explain your thoughts on it? I'd like to hear your opinions. Not trying to be rude either, I just want to understand where you are coming from.[/QUOTE]

First, I noticed in some other posts that it seems you are in the field of psychology. Right now in school I'm finishing up my undergrad psych classes. It might make more sense if I explain that I'm on the behavioral side of psych.

Now, the reason I say "choice" isn't real, is because we don't do things due to choice, we do things due to our present stimulus situation, our learning history and our genetics. Driving is a great example of this. Ever drive to a location that you frequently visit, think back and realize you don't even really remember concentrating on it you just...did it? Furthermore, if choice did exists, psych class would be easy as this: "People make choices in life, and these choices depend on what they want to do, well, there's not much outside of that, here's your diploma."

However, things make much more sense when you look at the genetics and the environment. The problem with choice is that we seem to use it when things are going well in our own lives. Ask a rich man and a poor man how they each got to where they are today, and chances are the poor man will give you a better renditions. The rich man might say, "I chose to go to a good school, I chose to work hard, I chose to go on for my PhD, I chose...." Where as the poor man might say, "Well, I got fired from my job, then my wife left me, my kids abandoned me..."

And that's the ultimate problem with believing in a choice. If you want to believe in it, it has to be real all of the time. But it seems like people use it to give themselves a false sense of dignity. I'm sure if you're in psych you've read some Skinner right? If you haven't, Beyond Freedom and Dignity is a great book to pick up and read through. If you're interested in a heavier, science like explanation, I'd suggest About Behaviorism or Science and Human Behavior.

I apologize for any grammatical errors, I just woke up and am getting ready for class.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']However, things make much more sense when you look at the genetics and the environment. The problem with choice is that we seem to use it when things are going well in our own lives. Ask a rich man and a poor man how they each got to where they are today, and chances are the poor man will give you a better renditions. The rich man might say, "I chose to go to a good school, I chose to work hard, I chose to go on for my PhD, I chose...." Where as the poor man might say, "Well, I got fired from my job, then my wife left me, my kids abandoned me..." [/quote]

The guy's sister works for the American govt getting relief for poor people in Iraq, and the shooter decided (or "was forced" as you might say) to hate rich people.

Were their genetics and enviornment that different?

IMO, explaining the difference between the two siblings purely by the genetic variance doesn't cut it.
 
Thank you sean. I can understand where you are coming from now. Though I do believe in many aspects of behaviorism, I was never a firm follower.

Which comes back to my previous statement of how there is never one answer. From whatever approach is taken - psychoanalytic, humanistic, biological, etc - we can argue a different cause/motive/reason for one's actions, or even use one approach to support another. Either way, I don't believe anyone would be wrong, as most of the psychological orientations can be applied to most situations, including this one.

While all orientations are valid in their own ways, I personally tend to lean most towards the concepts of humanism/existentialism, followed by psychoanalytic and psychodynamic theories. That is where I am usually coming from.
 
Just because the poor guy may have a more colorful story doesn't necessarily mean he had to work any harder. You can be given all the things in the world, but it ultimately comes down to your own decisions in life that make you or break you.

This kid chose to fail at life. I feel sorry for his parents, but not him.
 
CocheseUGA and camoor, I like both of you guys, but I'm not going to bother arguing with either one of you. I'd have to explain the principles of human behavior first and thats not something I feel like getting into right now.

To Moiety, I'm glad you see where I'm coming from, and your point of view makes more sense now that I know what your outlook is. However, I'm sure you're familiar with the research performed in the area, and behavioral therapies have much more evidence supporting them then the humanistic therapies do.
 
You guys are going about it the wrong way. Just blame video games:

This one is pretty damn funny, folks. Good old Jack Thompson has composed a letter to Bill Gates himself, blaming MS for the deaths at VT. This is due to the fact that the shooter was an avid Counterstrike player, and of course (according to old Wacky Jacky), Microsoft produces and publishes Counterstrike. If this letter is for real, it is libel, plain and simple. Let's hope MS decides to sue. (Thanks, Neo)
Click to expand...
http://gamersreports.com/news/5466/jack-thompson-blames-microsoft-for-vt-deaths-in-letter/

Full letter:

April 18, 2007

Bill Gates

Microsoft

1 Microsoft Way
Redmond, WA 98052 Via Fax and e-mail


Dear Mr. Gates:

On Monday, April 16, at 3:10 pm, I was a guest, as I often have been in the past, on the Fox News Channel. News anchor Bill Hemmer asked me to profile the Virginia Tech rampage killer. I did so, noting that until that day the worst school massacre in world history was at the hands of Robert Steinhaeuser, who literally trained on the Microsoft on-line, hyper-violent shooter game, Counterstrike. I mentioned your company’s game by name. I explained that the rehearsal for such a massacre is key to being able to pull it off, as efficiently as Cho, whose name we didn’t even know at the time. Cho and Steinhaeuser were able to do what they did the first time because it was not the first time. This is why the military uses this same virtual reality simulation to train soldiers to want to kill and how to kill calmly, as the witnesses of Cho said he did.

Sure enough, last night I was doing a west coast radio interview when the host said to me, "Mr. Thompson, you are right. The Washington Post is reporting right now the following:

‘Several Korean youths who knew Cho Seung Hui from his high school days said he was a fan of violent video games, particularly Counterstrike, a hugely popular online game published by Microsoft, in which players join terrorism or counterterrorism groups and try to shoot each other using all types of guns.’"

I thus went back on the Fox News Channel, and Bill Hemmer and I explained not only that I was right about your game figuring in the Virginia Tech massacre but also that the Washington Post excised the above excerpt from the story this morning. That is yet another story. The bad news for the Post however is that you can still get the excised excerpt at http://www.washingtonpost.com/...AR2007041700563_3.html?hpid=topnews. Thus, the cat is out of the bag, and his paw prints are still on the bag. Is this a great Internet, or what?

As you know, I similalry [sic] went on NBC’s Today Show with the DC Beltway Sniper still unidentified and at-large a few years ago and told Matt Lauer and the nation that the triggerman would most likely be a teen video gamer trained on a sniper video game. The tarot card was a clue, but there were other clues. I was right, as Malvo trained on your Microsoft game, Halo. NBC reported that three months later, and it was part of the criminal trial of Malvo.

Mr. Gates, your company is potentially legally liable the harm done at Virginia Tech. Your game, a killing simulator, according to the news that used to be in the Post, trained him to enjoy killing and how to kill. You knew five years ago that your on-line game, Counterstrike, so clearly figured in the massacre by a student in Erfurt that the event and the game impacted the race for Chancellor in Germany at the time!

Yet, here you are, five years after "Erfurt," still marketing Counterstrike. having done nothing to disable the server(s) for this mass murder simulator, and it looks like "Virginia Tech" is a consequence. There’s more going on in the world than Vista. Just ask the bereaved Virginia Tech families.

Mr. Gates, pull the plug on Counterstrike today, or do we need more dead to convince you? "Virginia Tech" was the 9-11 of school shootings, and it appears Microsoft is in the middle of it, in more ways than one.

Regards, Jack Thompson
Click to expand...
http://www.gamealmighty.com/story-individual/story/Thompson_Targets_Microsoft_in_Latest_Crusade/

:roll:
 
[quote name='seanr1221']First, I noticed in some other posts that it seems you are in the field of psychology. Right now in school I'm finishing up my undergrad psych classes. It might make more sense if I explain that I'm on the behavioral side of psych.

Now, the reason I say "choice" isn't real, is because we don't do things due to choice, we do things due to our present stimulus situation, our learning history and our genetics. Driving is a great example of this. Ever drive to a location that you frequently visit, think back and realize you don't even really remember concentrating on it you just...did it? Furthermore, if choice did exists, psych class would be easy as this: "People make choices in life, and these choices depend on what they want to do, well, there's not much outside of that, here's your diploma."

However, things make much more sense when you look at the genetics and the environment. The problem with choice is that we seem to use it when things are going well in our own lives. Ask a rich man and a poor man how they each got to where they are today, and chances are the poor man will give you a better renditions. The rich man might say, "I chose to go to a good school, I chose to work hard, I chose to go on for my PhD, I chose...." Where as the poor man might say, "Well, I got fired from my job, then my wife left me, my kids abandoned me..."

And that's the ultimate problem with believing in a choice. If you want to believe in it, it has to be real all of the time. But it seems like people use it to give themselves a false sense of dignity. I'm sure if you're in psych you've read some Skinner right? If you haven't, Beyond Freedom and Dignity is a great book to pick up and read through. If you're interested in a heavier, science like explanation, I'd suggest About Behaviorism or Science and Human Behavior.

I apologize for any grammatical errors, I just woke up and am getting ready for class.[/QUOTE]

In summary: while we can make choices, we cannot choose what our choices are.
 
While he's pissed off at women and rich people who drink and party too much, he also mentioned he's doing it for his "brothers and sisters" and other people. These spree killers usually just do it because they hate everyone or something really pissed them off, but he's insisting he was doing this for others as well...

there's something else that was going through his mind that we most likely won't ever know about.
 
[quote name='Apossum']While he's pissed off at women and rich people who drink and party too much, he also mentioned he's doing it for his "brothers and sisters" and other people. These spree killers usually just do it because they hate everyone or something really pissed them off, but he's insisting he was doing this for others as well...

there's something else that was going through his mind that we most likely won't ever know about.[/QUOTE]

Given what is said about his psychological past, I don't expect we'll find a coherent or logical narrative that explains his actions.
 
I heard that someone said he was really affected by the movie Oldboy (I don't know, I haven't seen it)

I do see some Fight Club overtones though - he never slept, had an agressive extroverted alterego named Mr Question Mark, and had an axe to grind with modern civilization. Not to mention the fascination with violence.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']In summary: while we can make choices, we cannot choose what our choices are.[/QUOTE]

Very nicely put.

Yes, a bad background, genetics, past history of abuse etc. can obviously shapes one's psyche negatively but the reason why we also have frontal lobes is to be able to suppress or sublimate aggressive behavior. This shooter clearly had underlying psychopathology going far beyond that; while it's been assumed that he had some troubled childhood or something along those lines, there doesn't seem to be anything concrete to support that. By all accounts, his parents were good people, no history of abuse has come up. He may simply have had a form of paranoid schizophrenia with persecutory delusions (sschizophrenia tends to appear around college age) which unfortunately was never adequately addressed. To try to explain his behavior is going to be futile because his perception of the world was far out of whack with that of a "normal" person.
 
Not sure how relevant this is, but if you read his plays, you always saw the main character(s) as highly volatile, and always against some sort of authority figure. This manifested in dialog and actions that seemingly had little connection to each other - a lot of non-sequiter complaints and accusations, really.

It's a common mistake that people like to assume that an author's characters are often reflections of themselves (Poe is a notable example of this, generally confusing his life and lifestyle with that of his deluded and often paranoid characters, especially since he liked to write in first person). So I'm not going to make the leap and say "he's just like those characters."

Really what I'm pointing out is that if he's going to have a manifesto filled with the same language - especially talk of molestation and the like - then I can't help but see the parallels at play. But that's all I'm going to leave it at. I'm not going to call him the kid in "Richard McBeef," because a division has to remain on some level.

Considering all that, I'm going to throw my vote into the camp that thinks that even if we were given a fairly complete explanation from him, he might be working on levels and with reasoning that we couldn't connect around to everything else.

Just something to think about.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']CocheseUGA and camoor, I like both of you guys, but I'm not going to bother arguing with either one of you. I'd have to explain the principles of human behavior first and thats not something I feel like getting into right now.[/quote]

I took psych 101, but I don't believe in a Grand Unifying Theory of anything, whether it be physics, psychology or philosophy. Determinism is too easy an answer - random stuff happens!

Of course, Jung is my favorite mainstream psychologist, so that may explain something ;)
 
[quote name='Strell']
It's a common mistake that people like to assume that an author's characters are often reflections of themselves (Poe is a notable example of this, generally confusing his life and lifestyle with that of his deluded and often paranoid characters, especially since he liked to write in first person). So I'm not going to make the leap and say "he's just like those characters."[/QUOTE]

As a writer (not of plays, but film), I think it's fair to say that no character I've ever created has been a direct representation of me, but those closest to me have held many similar characteristics. Reading his plays, his characters are incredibly one dimensional (not necessarily an insult, but in a 10 page script all your characters generally are), and if I had to give a opinion on the matter from my experience, I'd say the boy is a direct representation of himself.
 
While I can see why anybody at Tech could feel isolated if they're not rich and/or white, he wasn't acting or thinking rationally, so it's never really going to make sense.

People will try to find a purpose behind what he did to give it some kind of meaning, but there really isn't one. Only a person with some mental abnormality that was triggered in a disgustingly violent way.
 
Here in DC, they are reporting where the shooter's sister and parents work.

I have no idea what this has to do with the story - pretty scummy if you ask me.
 
[quote name='camoor']Here in DC, they are reporting where the shooter's sister and parents work.

I have no idea what this has to do with the story - pretty scummy if you ask me.[/QUOTE]

All I had read was that they owned a dry cleaning business but if there's a news agency reporting the actual name of the business, that's just uncalled for.
 
[quote name='camoor']Here in DC, they are reporting where the shooter's sister and parents work.

I have no idea what this has to do with the story - pretty scummy if you ask me.[/QUOTE]


I can bet you there are people who work for the media who went to VA tech at some point and just doing this a cheap man's way of getting revenge. Release the information and let the public do the dirty work.
 
How can a dude that has been classified as suicidal by a state judge purchase firearms?

I have no problem with gun ownership...really. But when someone is fucked up enough that a court suggests that you need psychiatric counseling....

"Dr. Chris Flynn of the Cook Counseling Center stressed that the decision to commit Cho to a mental health facility was taken by a Virginia district court and there are strict privacy rules about what information can be shared.

"Clearly every person who leaves a psychiatric facility needs extended care and follow-up," he added. "Who gets notified under that court order and who is notified is determined by (health privacy) regulations and not the university.

"The university is not part of the mental health system for the judiciary system and we would not be the providers of mandatory counseling in this instance," he said. "

But does the judicial system share their information with the folks that issue firearms licenses in Virginia? WTF?
 
[quote name='tickdude']How can a dude that has been classified as suicidal by a state judge purchase firearms?[/QUOTE]

You can thank medical privacy acts for that one. I asked my wife (nurse) the exact same thing.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Given what is said about his psychological past, I don't expect we'll find a coherent or logical narrative that explains his actions.[/QUOTE]


of course not--he didn't talk to anyone and he wasn't specific in his video. Despite the guy's psychological problems, there's still reasoning behind his actions that goes deeper than "he's crazy" or "his frontal lobe was malfunctioning." even if it isn't coherent or logical, the pieces of that reason are what's important.

The fact that he felt like he was standing up for other people is what intrigues me. That could mean a lot of things, but I do wonder if his Korean heritage has anything to do with it (not talking ethnicity here, but on an historical level.) It feels dumb to even speculate about that, and I'm sure it looks dumb as well ;) I'm not trying to figure him out though...no way to do that through the media's representation of him and the scant facts we have.
 
[quote name='hero101']Was Guile's friend okay? I just saw this on the 1st page. Thanks.[/quote]

Yeah he's fine. I just heard back from him. He said the outpouring of support for everyone has being amazing.
 
[quote name='Apossum']of course not--he didn't talk to anyone and he wasn't specific in his video. Despite the guy's psychological problems, there's still reasoning behind his actions that goes deeper than "he's crazy" or "his frontal lobe was malfunctioning." even if it isn't coherent or logical, the pieces of that reason are what's important.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely. I'm not suggesting his narrative reasons aren't worth knowing, but even if he spelled out his reasons as clearly as he thought of them, it would go like this:

public: "WHYYYY!?!?!?!"

Cho: "reasonsreasonsreasons"

public: "WHYYYY!?!?!?!"

Still worth knowing, however.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']All I had read was that they owned a dry cleaning business but if there's a news agency reporting the actual name of the business, that's just uncalled for.[/quote]

To clarify: they reported the community of the business and showed a picture of the dry cleaning building's exterior (didn't check if the name was visible). It's a relatively small community, I bet you could figure it out if you lived nearby.

They also reported his sister's name, the neighboorhood in DC where his sister worked, and her current occupation.

Then they named the town in VA where his uncle lived (with the VA map and a big red arrow)

I think that's over the line - IMO there's a certain point where you have to consider the safety of his relatives. Saying they operated a drycleaning business in Nova would have been enough info.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Absolutely. I'm not suggesting his narrative reasons aren't worth knowing, but even if he spelled out his reasons as clearly as he thought of them, it would go like this:

public: "WHYYYY!?!?!?!"

Cho: "reasonsreasonsreasons"

public: "WHYYYY!?!?!?!"

Still worth knowing, however.[/QUOTE]


you forgot:

nancy grace: *something annoying*

:lol:
 
[quote name='camoor']To clarify: they reported the community of the business and showed a picture of the dry cleaning building's exterior (didn't check if the name was visible). It's a relatively small community, I bet you could figure it out if you lived nearby.

They also reported his sister's name, the neighboorhood in DC where his sister worked, and her current occupation.

Then they named the town in VA where his uncle lived (with the VA map and a big red arrow)

I think that's over the line - IMO there's a certain point where you have to consider the safety of his relatives. Saying they operated a drycleaning business in Nova would have been enough info.[/QUOTE]

Yeah see that's a bit ridiculous. They give out enough information so that some nut with a vendetta could piece it together and then later, if god forbid something did happen, they can say "well we didn't give out any specific information...":roll:
 
As usual, nicely put myke (summing up my words). Then again, I suppose thats what seperates the grad students from the undergrads ;)

[quote name='camoor']I took psych 101, but I don't believe in a Grand Unifying Theory of anything, whether it be physics, psychology or philosophy. Determinism is too easy an answer - random stuff happens!

Of course, Jung is my favorite mainstream psychologist, so that may explain something ;)[/QUOTE]

Well...psych 101 is pretty much a joke ;)
 
Blame "Oldboy" :

va2.jpg

va.jpg
 
Oh.

We cannot choose our choices as in what is presented to us as options, not "choice" as in what we ultimately do.

I.e. if I go to Taco Bell, I can't ask for a pepperoni pizza, since it's not on the menu. So I have to make do with what is already there.

That's what was meant earlier, right?
 
[quote name='ahmedmalik']Blame "Oldboy" :

va2.jpg

va.jpg
[/QUOTE]
Yeah...actually, I was immediately reminded of Oldboy when I saw his hammer pose. What's with his facial expression in that picture, btw? He looks like a freakin' douche.
 
Billy Madison! Shit, I can't believe I forgot about that. Remember when Billy calls the kid he and his friends picked on in high school? He apoligizes and offers to get together sometime? We all know someone who was picked on or humiliated in high school. Maybe we should give em a call.

You never know...maybe someday you are in a competition with a real prick and you need someone to save your life by shooting him in the ass... it could happen.
 
Now that they haven't found any video games in his dorm guess what they are gonig after? Movies! :roll:

The family in South Korea came out and said he would never really talk that much and always a wacko. Can we fucknig kill the asshole family for not doing a fucking thing 20 years ago!? Asshole. I blame them first.
 
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