Wall Street Protesters
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I almost woke up my gf sleeping next to me from laughing at that.
[quote name='SgtMurder']It means that liberalism is a slowing dying philosophy. They're waking up to the fact that the poor and minorities that they defend to a T don't give a shit about them or their beliefs. It's slowly killing off the danger group think that is liberalism.[/QUOTE]
What wonderful, heartwarming Christian values you hold.
What wonderful, heartwarming Christian values you hold.
The Crotch
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How long y'all gonna chase this white rabbit?
cochesecochese
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'till Bob comes back.
Come on, man. I don't even play video games anymore. I need this.
Come on, man. I don't even play video games anymore. I need this.
I know someone going through a nasty marital problem right now. They have two friends who are both giving very different advice and thought it was a great metaphor for the American people, our economic crisis and how both parties are handling it. The American people are a women whose husband just left her for a younger women and the Dems and Republicans are their girlfriends giving them advice on what to do next.
The friend named Republican says that you are almost 40 and you are in massive debt from feeding/clothing and maintaining health care for your children as well as from the year you tried to go back to college. She says your husband was right to leave you for the 25 year old girl named China next door. She says that if you want to win him back you need to go out and buy a dress so slutty you never could have imagined you would wear it and then flaunt yourself like a tart to him. If that doesnt work you need to hit the bars, maybe you can find an older rich guy to take care of you.....though he may ask you to do some horrible things in bed you never have before. You just need to lower those standards you set for yourself years back and accept you are not as good as you thought you were. You need to accept that your betters/other men are the only ones who can solve this mess you call a life...but only if you are willing to give up some self respect and lower yourself first.
Your other friend Democrat says the opposite. They tell you that whoring yourself out is not a solution and that you dont need to lower your standards. They point out your ex husband also named Republican(its a name that goes both ways like Ryan!)was the one who ran up the debt, yes you spent money on trying to educate yourself and taking care of your kids...but that money is a joke compared to the debt he ran up loaning money to his loser friends and having you bail his sorry ass out of jail. Your friend Democrat tells you that even though you are in debt you should spend a little bit and invest in yourself. You should go back to school and finish getting your degree. You should realize that even if you lower your standards to win your ex husband back that China will just lower her standards as well. Do you really want to compete in a race to the bottom to win back a guy whos better days are behind him? Is it not better to invest in yourself and while you are building a future for you and your kids possibly meet the man of your future?
We have to chose. So which friend do you listen to? The one saying slut yourself up and win back that loser or possibly go for a rich sugar daddy? Or the people saying dont race to the bottom, you are worth more then a trophy wife committing porn acts? The people saying yes you have more debt then is ideal, but if you ever want to make something of yourself you have to be willing to invest in yourself.
The friend named Republican says that you are almost 40 and you are in massive debt from feeding/clothing and maintaining health care for your children as well as from the year you tried to go back to college. She says your husband was right to leave you for the 25 year old girl named China next door. She says that if you want to win him back you need to go out and buy a dress so slutty you never could have imagined you would wear it and then flaunt yourself like a tart to him. If that doesnt work you need to hit the bars, maybe you can find an older rich guy to take care of you.....though he may ask you to do some horrible things in bed you never have before. You just need to lower those standards you set for yourself years back and accept you are not as good as you thought you were. You need to accept that your betters/other men are the only ones who can solve this mess you call a life...but only if you are willing to give up some self respect and lower yourself first.
Your other friend Democrat says the opposite. They tell you that whoring yourself out is not a solution and that you dont need to lower your standards. They point out your ex husband also named Republican(its a name that goes both ways like Ryan!)was the one who ran up the debt, yes you spent money on trying to educate yourself and taking care of your kids...but that money is a joke compared to the debt he ran up loaning money to his loser friends and having you bail his sorry ass out of jail. Your friend Democrat tells you that even though you are in debt you should spend a little bit and invest in yourself. You should go back to school and finish getting your degree. You should realize that even if you lower your standards to win your ex husband back that China will just lower her standards as well. Do you really want to compete in a race to the bottom to win back a guy whos better days are behind him? Is it not better to invest in yourself and while you are building a future for you and your kids possibly meet the man of your future?
We have to chose. So which friend do you listen to? The one saying slut yourself up and win back that loser or possibly go for a rich sugar daddy? Or the people saying dont race to the bottom, you are worth more then a trophy wife committing porn acts? The people saying yes you have more debt then is ideal, but if you ever want to make something of yourself you have to be willing to invest in yourself.
Well, this is a first...
[quote name='MSI Magus']The friend named Republican says [...] maybe you can find an older rich guy to take care of you.....[/quote]
Republicans telling someone to sit back and let someone else take care of them while Democrats are telling people to pull up their boot straps and make something of themselves.
hm.
[quote name='MSI Magus']The friend named Republican says [...] maybe you can find an older rich guy to take care of you.....[/quote]
Republicans telling someone to sit back and let someone else take care of them while Democrats are telling people to pull up their boot straps and make something of themselves.
hm.
elessar123
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[quote name='MSI Magus']Or the people saying dont race to the bottom, you are worth more then a trophy wife committing porn acts?[/QUOTE]
So Republicansgive rim jobs are dirty whores?
(It said rim jobs when I read the post.)
So Republicans
(It said rim jobs when I read the post.)
[quote name='UncleBob']Well, this is a first...
Republicans telling someone to sit back and let someone else take care of them while Democrats are telling people to pull up their boot straps and make something of themselves.
hm.[/QUOTE]
What is saying we should lower taxes time and time again and hope that rich people will create jobs? Its saying do nothing and hope they come along to fix our problems. Every Republican answer is lower taxes and deregulate. In other words make rich people happy and maybe they will take care of us.
Democrats meanwhile, yes they are the party of welfare and food stamps and all those other things. However they are also the party saying we need to be proactive. We need to invest in education, in infrastructure and in green energy. We need to invest in the future and with work we can fix things.
Republicans telling someone to sit back and let someone else take care of them while Democrats are telling people to pull up their boot straps and make something of themselves.
hm.[/QUOTE]
What is saying we should lower taxes time and time again and hope that rich people will create jobs? Its saying do nothing and hope they come along to fix our problems. Every Republican answer is lower taxes and deregulate. In other words make rich people happy and maybe they will take care of us.
Democrats meanwhile, yes they are the party of welfare and food stamps and all those other things. However they are also the party saying we need to be proactive. We need to invest in education, in infrastructure and in green energy. We need to invest in the future and with work we can fix things.
[quote name='elessar123']So Republicans give rim jobs are dirty whores?
(It said rim jobs when I read the post.)[/QUOTE]
No they dont give them, they expect them. Lick a rich mans anus and you may get a job. Well or if your Herman Cain you settle for a good ole bj(I kid I kid, we dont know if they guy really did that!).
(It said rim jobs when I read the post.)[/QUOTE]
No they dont give them, they expect them. Lick a rich mans anus and you may get a job. Well or if your Herman Cain you settle for a good ole bj(I kid I kid, we dont know if they guy really did that!).
On the other hand, as OWS has shown, a college education isn't exactly a sure thing in terms of employment these days. What we really need is the next technology boom. The home PC gave us the 90's. There's really nothing right now to replace that leap. It probably won't be renewable energy until the mid 20's since we're still a good decade before that technology becomes feasible for widespread use. To go back to the PC analogy, it's like the difference between a Texas Instruments calculator that ran on AA batteries and an iPod that has more computing power than what put men on the moon. It'll happen, but it'll also take 25 years.
[quote name='nasum']On the other hand, as OWS has shown, a college education isn't exactly a sure thing in terms of employment these days. What we really need is the next technology boom. The home PC gave us the 90's. There's really nothing right now to replace that leap. It probably won't be renewable energy until the mid 20's since we're still a good decade before that technology becomes feasible for widespread use. To go back to the PC analogy, it's like the difference between a Texas Instruments calculator that ran on AA batteries and an iPod that has more computing power than what put men on the moon. It'll happen, but it'll also take 25 years.[/QUOTE]
If no one gets an education what are the chances America is the one who discovers the next technology boom? In the metaphore investing in her education was a metaphor for investing in more then simply education. The more people that get an education the more booms we will discover. The better our infrastructure the easier it is to put those new techs in place. And of course the more we invest the sciences the sooner it happens as well.
If no one gets an education what are the chances America is the one who discovers the next technology boom? In the metaphore investing in her education was a metaphor for investing in more then simply education. The more people that get an education the more booms we will discover. The better our infrastructure the easier it is to put those new techs in place. And of course the more we invest the sciences the sooner it happens as well.
[quote name='MSI Magus']Democrats meanwhile, yes they are the party of welfare and food stamps and all those other things. However they are also the party saying we need to be proactive. We need to invest in education, in infrastructure and in green energy. We need to invest in the future and with work we can fix things.[/QUOTE]
...until everyone else's money runs out...
...until everyone else's money runs out...
[quote name='UncleBob']...until everyone else's money runs out...[/QUOTE]
Which is an assumption. You assume that all of our investments will fail. You assume that we will never find new jobs. You assume that the economy will continue to crash. You assume over and over again that everything will be bad leading to running out of money.
Lets go a step farther and assume you are right. Lets assume all the worst case scenarios come true. What happens? Well basically the exact same thing that happens under conservatives....cept this time around we at least 1. Made an effort to fight our way out of this. 2. Have a clean country 3. Have our self respect 4. Spent many years taking care of our weakest citizens and educating ourselves.
Sorry but if either side leads to failure then ill take the side where I get some good years and go out with a shred of dignity vs whoring myself out till I drop.
Which is an assumption. You assume that all of our investments will fail. You assume that we will never find new jobs. You assume that the economy will continue to crash. You assume over and over again that everything will be bad leading to running out of money.
Lets go a step farther and assume you are right. Lets assume all the worst case scenarios come true. What happens? Well basically the exact same thing that happens under conservatives....cept this time around we at least 1. Made an effort to fight our way out of this. 2. Have a clean country 3. Have our self respect 4. Spent many years taking care of our weakest citizens and educating ourselves.
Sorry but if either side leads to failure then ill take the side where I get some good years and go out with a shred of dignity vs whoring myself out till I drop.
Of course you will.
Because you're not in the group of people that you're calling for to make sacrifices.
You're asking others to give up what they have so that you can have your few good years and, I suppose, your "shred of dignity" (if getting by on handouts from others is what you consider dignity).
Because you're not in the group of people that you're calling for to make sacrifices.
You're asking others to give up what they have so that you can have your few good years and, I suppose, your "shred of dignity" (if getting by on handouts from others is what you consider dignity).
[quote name='MSI Magus']Which is an assumption. You assume that all of our investments will fail. You assume that we will never find new jobs. You assume that the economy will continue to crash. You assume over and over again that everything will be bad leading to running out of money.
Lets go a step farther and assume you are right. Lets assume all the worst case scenarios come true. What happens? Well basically the exact same thing that happens under conservatives....cept this time around we at least 1. Made an effort to fight our way out of this. 2. Have a clean country 3. Have our self respect 4. Spent many years taking care of our weakest citizens and educating ourselves.
Sorry but if either side leads to failure then ill take the side where I get some good years and go out with a shred of dignity vs whoring myself out till I drop.[/QUOTE]
You have history and actual economics. They have bullshit: fantasy authors and what if scenarios based on false pretenses. There are also modern day countries to be used as case studies. Ask cons to name a country with horrific income equality they would actually want to live in.
Lets go a step farther and assume you are right. Lets assume all the worst case scenarios come true. What happens? Well basically the exact same thing that happens under conservatives....cept this time around we at least 1. Made an effort to fight our way out of this. 2. Have a clean country 3. Have our self respect 4. Spent many years taking care of our weakest citizens and educating ourselves.
Sorry but if either side leads to failure then ill take the side where I get some good years and go out with a shred of dignity vs whoring myself out till I drop.[/QUOTE]
You have history and actual economics. They have bullshit: fantasy authors and what if scenarios based on false pretenses. There are also modern day countries to be used as case studies. Ask cons to name a country with horrific income equality they would actually want to live in.
mykevermin
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^ The United States?
[quote name='UncleBob']Of course you will.
Because you're not in the group of people that you're calling for to make sacrifices.
You're asking others to give up what they have so that you can have your few good years and, I suppose, your "shred of dignity" (if getting by on handouts from others is what you consider dignity).[/QUOTE]
Another assumption. First off I would call for us to make sacrifices, they would just be smaller. Second off and more importantly you forget the fact that we have been sacrificing for the last 30-40 years. Its time for someone else to step up and carry some of the burden. Its pretty insane(read Republican)to say anything else. After all our incomes have not been increasing, our living standards have been dropping, our jobs have been disappearing and our environment has been the one being destroyed.
Because you're not in the group of people that you're calling for to make sacrifices.
You're asking others to give up what they have so that you can have your few good years and, I suppose, your "shred of dignity" (if getting by on handouts from others is what you consider dignity).[/QUOTE]
Another assumption. First off I would call for us to make sacrifices, they would just be smaller. Second off and more importantly you forget the fact that we have been sacrificing for the last 30-40 years. Its time for someone else to step up and carry some of the burden. Its pretty insane(read Republican)to say anything else. After all our incomes have not been increasing, our living standards have been dropping, our jobs have been disappearing and our environment has been the one being destroyed.
You're saying that your standard of living has been dropping over the past 30-40 years?
30 years ago, someone of your income level (adjusted for inflation, of course)... how many cars would your family have had? Televisions? Cell phones? How many days a week would you have eaten out? Gone to the movies? Would you have had pay-TV service, or just OTA feeds? Internet bill? How many video game systems would someone of your income level have had? Home PC? Washer, dryer, dish washer?
Has your standard of living dropped, or have your priorities simply changed?
30 years ago, someone of your income level (adjusted for inflation, of course)... how many cars would your family have had? Televisions? Cell phones? How many days a week would you have eaten out? Gone to the movies? Would you have had pay-TV service, or just OTA feeds? Internet bill? How many video game systems would someone of your income level have had? Home PC? Washer, dryer, dish washer?
Has your standard of living dropped, or have your priorities simply changed?
[quote name='UncleBob']You're saying that your standard of living has been dropping over the past 30-40 years?
30 years ago, someone of your income level (adjusted for inflation, of course)... how many cars would your family have had? Televisions? Cell phones? How many days a week would you have eaten out? Gone to the movies? Would you have had pay-TV service, or just OTA feeds? Internet bill? How many video game systems would someone of your income level have had? Home PC? Washer, dryer, dish washer?
Has your standard of living dropped, or have your priorities simply changed?[/QUOTE]
Have you not heard of credit cards? Again as per usual you are completely blind to the facts and looking at 1 small side of the puzzle. Do people have more shit now then they used to? Yep! Does that mean they have a hand in their own slide towards poverty? Yep! Does that mean that their standard of living has stayed the same though? ...well sort of.
See yes you are right that peoples standard of living has stayed the same or even possibly gotten better. Problem is that its a house of cards propped up by credit cards, bank loans and borrowing against their home(not to mention lack of investing in to their 401k). All it takes is 1 small disaster and the average family can be knocked in to poverty now. Meanwhile the top 1% in this country has tripled their wealth in the last decade.
I am not like the liberals of this board who wont admit people are stupid and they are greedy. People want to live like the rich and they will put themselves in long term poverty for short term satisfaction. However I am not so naive and ignorant as you to look around, see people with TVs and cars and then disregard all data and facts that people studying economics and society give us. I am not so ignorant as to think just because my brother has a motorcycle and no health insurance it means he could be living the high life if he just moved his money around. I also think its incredibly arrogant and greedy of you to say that the middle class should never have nice things. It used to be everyone had a nice living on one income...then mom went to work...then the credit cards came in...then the loans etc etc. I believe that people deserve most of what they have....it just should not hvae to be obtained by borrowing against their
ing homes making the rich richer when they fail to one day make payment.
Its time the middle class started giving up some of the creature comforts they have obtained through debt....but at the same time they should not have to give up every last comfort, own 1 car, a small house, never go on vacation, never eat out and have to worry about health insurance all while the 1% take everything we give up.
Edit - btw my wife and I. 1 car, 1 TV, no kids, no vacation in 5 or 6 years and our wedding was a small celebration at my Aunts house. We pay double our mortgage every month so we will own our small home on the meh(not gunshot bad but def not nice)side of town in just 6 years. We also add 15% of our income to our 401k(which at 27 has more in it then any person at my wifes factory other then the 3 top supervisors that make 3x her salary). I know what it means to live without every luxury and creature comfort.....I just do not think that 99% of Americans should have to live this way just to try and get ahead in life. People deserve more then deciding to I want a kid or a vacation, do I want to eat out twice a month or buy my own home. We dont deserve it all...but we deserve more then this.
30 years ago, someone of your income level (adjusted for inflation, of course)... how many cars would your family have had? Televisions? Cell phones? How many days a week would you have eaten out? Gone to the movies? Would you have had pay-TV service, or just OTA feeds? Internet bill? How many video game systems would someone of your income level have had? Home PC? Washer, dryer, dish washer?
Has your standard of living dropped, or have your priorities simply changed?[/QUOTE]
Have you not heard of credit cards? Again as per usual you are completely blind to the facts and looking at 1 small side of the puzzle. Do people have more shit now then they used to? Yep! Does that mean they have a hand in their own slide towards poverty? Yep! Does that mean that their standard of living has stayed the same though? ...well sort of.
See yes you are right that peoples standard of living has stayed the same or even possibly gotten better. Problem is that its a house of cards propped up by credit cards, bank loans and borrowing against their home(not to mention lack of investing in to their 401k). All it takes is 1 small disaster and the average family can be knocked in to poverty now. Meanwhile the top 1% in this country has tripled their wealth in the last decade.
I am not like the liberals of this board who wont admit people are stupid and they are greedy. People want to live like the rich and they will put themselves in long term poverty for short term satisfaction. However I am not so naive and ignorant as you to look around, see people with TVs and cars and then disregard all data and facts that people studying economics and society give us. I am not so ignorant as to think just because my brother has a motorcycle and no health insurance it means he could be living the high life if he just moved his money around. I also think its incredibly arrogant and greedy of you to say that the middle class should never have nice things. It used to be everyone had a nice living on one income...then mom went to work...then the credit cards came in...then the loans etc etc. I believe that people deserve most of what they have....it just should not hvae to be obtained by borrowing against their
ing homes making the rich richer when they fail to one day make payment.Its time the middle class started giving up some of the creature comforts they have obtained through debt....but at the same time they should not have to give up every last comfort, own 1 car, a small house, never go on vacation, never eat out and have to worry about health insurance all while the 1% take everything we give up.
Edit - btw my wife and I. 1 car, 1 TV, no kids, no vacation in 5 or 6 years and our wedding was a small celebration at my Aunts house. We pay double our mortgage every month so we will own our small home on the meh(not gunshot bad but def not nice)side of town in just 6 years. We also add 15% of our income to our 401k(which at 27 has more in it then any person at my wifes factory other then the 3 top supervisors that make 3x her salary). I know what it means to live without every luxury and creature comfort.....I just do not think that 99% of Americans should have to live this way just to try and get ahead in life. People deserve more then deciding to I want a kid or a vacation, do I want to eat out twice a month or buy my own home. We dont deserve it all...but we deserve more then this.
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[quote name='UncleBob']You're saying that your standard of living has been dropping over the past 30-40 years?[/QUOTE]
It definitely hasn't. And it pretty much goes for everyone. Reason was hit hard for suggesting that the poor aren't that bad off in this country. We like to imagine that mythical poor person, usually black or Hispanic, that has seven jobs and lives in a food desert and is starving half to death, but it is generally not true. They certainly exist, but they are the exception rather than the rule.
I think it speaks to your point that 80% of people in poverty have air conditioning. In 1970, only 36% of the general population had air conditioning. Standard of living has increased substantially!
It definitely hasn't. And it pretty much goes for everyone. Reason was hit hard for suggesting that the poor aren't that bad off in this country. We like to imagine that mythical poor person, usually black or Hispanic, that has seven jobs and lives in a food desert and is starving half to death, but it is generally not true. They certainly exist, but they are the exception rather than the rule.
I think it speaks to your point that 80% of people in poverty have air conditioning. In 1970, only 36% of the general population had air conditioning. Standard of living has increased substantially!
[quote name='Spokker']It definitely hasn't. And it pretty much goes for everyone. Reason was hit hard for suggesting that the poor aren't that bad off in this country. We like to imagine that mythical poor person, usually black or Hispanic, that has seven jobs and lives in a food desert and is starving half to death, but it is generally not true. They certainly exist, but they are the exception rather than the rule.
I think it speaks to your point that 80% of people in poverty have air conditioning. In 1970, only 36% of the general population had air conditioning. Standard of living has increased substantially![/QUOTE]
Again you address a fragment of the problem and pretend its the whole thing....
I think it speaks to your point that 80% of people in poverty have air conditioning. In 1970, only 36% of the general population had air conditioning. Standard of living has increased substantially![/QUOTE]
Again you address a fragment of the problem and pretend its the whole thing....
Standard of living has been up and down historically. It saw big spikes in the US in the 1920s, then a huge dip through the great depression and WWII. Then it jumped way up again through the 50s and kind of stagnated during the 60s. Economy tanked some in the 70s and 80s, then jumped way up again in the 1990s.
Currently the standard of living is pretty damn high, but as Magus noted, a lot of it is financed through consumer debt--much more so than in other eras. So it's kind of misleading.
Unemployment rates are still very high, and the gap between the rich and poor is the widest it's ever been and has been widening at record pace since the 1990s on. So standard of living has gotten better for the top few percent of society, stagnated for the middle class, and declined for the lower class with the continued loss of blue collar jobs as more and more manufacturing etc. moves overseas.
Currently the standard of living is pretty damn high, but as Magus noted, a lot of it is financed through consumer debt--much more so than in other eras. So it's kind of misleading.
Unemployment rates are still very high, and the gap between the rich and poor is the widest it's ever been and has been widening at record pace since the 1990s on. So standard of living has gotten better for the top few percent of society, stagnated for the middle class, and declined for the lower class with the continued loss of blue collar jobs as more and more manufacturing etc. moves overseas.
[quote name='MSI Magus']Again you address a fragment of the problem and pretend its the whole thing....[/QUOTE]
I liked what you had to say about credit propping the whole thing up. I try to refrain from demonizing credit. In the hands of a competent person, it is a beautiful thing. I mean, examples are plentiful. You purchase a little car, you use it to work, go to school, whatever, and pay it off in a few years. On the other hand, it's difficult to downplay abuse of credit, an economic sin if I ever did see one.
I especially like that you appear to be living beneath your means, but I would have to see how much your video card costs first. This kind of responsibility is why you are where you are, and if you are telling the truth, why you won't experience many of the hardships that people get themselves into.
I generally believe that the poor are where they are because of the decisions they make. I think it was a year or so ago that a study was released that stated that the net worth of black women was something like -$5. Of the multitude of reasons why this is, the most important in my opinion are welfare reducing the incentive to produce and save, a culture that does not respect fatherhood and education, and hair weaves. Historical racism is certainly part of it but with each passing decade this excuse loses its explanatory power.
You, Mr. Magus, certainly have a choice. You can live like MSI Magus or you can live like a black woman. This seems to be a bad word in this day and age, but personality responsibility is key even in the face of poor economic decisions by policymakers (just because they weren't asking for proof of income when you bought that house, doesn't mean you had to close the deal!).
I liked what you had to say about credit propping the whole thing up. I try to refrain from demonizing credit. In the hands of a competent person, it is a beautiful thing. I mean, examples are plentiful. You purchase a little car, you use it to work, go to school, whatever, and pay it off in a few years. On the other hand, it's difficult to downplay abuse of credit, an economic sin if I ever did see one.
I especially like that you appear to be living beneath your means, but I would have to see how much your video card costs first. This kind of responsibility is why you are where you are, and if you are telling the truth, why you won't experience many of the hardships that people get themselves into.
I generally believe that the poor are where they are because of the decisions they make. I think it was a year or so ago that a study was released that stated that the net worth of black women was something like -$5. Of the multitude of reasons why this is, the most important in my opinion are welfare reducing the incentive to produce and save, a culture that does not respect fatherhood and education, and hair weaves. Historical racism is certainly part of it but with each passing decade this excuse loses its explanatory power.
You, Mr. Magus, certainly have a choice. You can live like MSI Magus or you can live like a black woman. This seems to be a bad word in this day and age, but personality responsibility is key even in the face of poor economic decisions by policymakers (just because they weren't asking for proof of income when you bought that house, doesn't mean you had to close the deal!).
[quote name='UncleBob']You're saying that your standard of living has been dropping over the past 30-40 years?
30 years ago, someone of your income level (adjusted for inflation, of course)... how many cars would your family have had? Televisions? Cell phones? How many days a week would you have eaten out? Gone to the movies? Would you have had pay-TV service, or just OTA feeds? Internet bill? How many video game systems would someone of your income level have had? Home PC? Washer, dryer, dish washer?
Has your standard of living dropped, or have your priorities simply changed?[/QUOTE]
[quote name='MSI Magus']Have you not heard of credit cards? Again as per usual you are completely blind to the facts and looking at 1 small side of the puzzle. Do people have more shit now then they used to? Yep! Does that mean they have a hand in their own slide towards poverty? Yep! Does that mean that their standard of living has stayed the same though? ...well sort of.
See yes you are right that peoples standard of living has stayed the same or even possibly gotten better. Problem is that its a house of cards propped up by credit cards, bank loans and borrowing against their home(not to mention lack of investing in to their 401k). All it takes is 1 small disaster and the average family can be knocked in to poverty now. Meanwhile the top 1% in this country has tripled their wealth in the last decade.
I am not like the liberals of this board who wont admit people are stupid and they are greedy. People want to live like the rich and they will put themselves in long term poverty for short term satisfaction. However I am not so naive and ignorant as you to look around, see people with TVs and cars and then disregard all data and facts that people studying economics and society give us. I am not so ignorant as to think just because my brother has a motorcycle and no health insurance it means he could be living the high life if he just moved his money around. I also think its incredibly arrogant and greedy of you to say that the middle class should never have nice things. It used to be everyone had a nice living on one income...then mom went to work...then the credit cards came in...then the loans etc etc. I believe that people deserve most of what they have....it just should not hvae to be obtained by borrowing against theiring homes making the rich richer when they fail to one day make payment.
Its time the middle class started giving up some of the creature comforts they have obtained through debt....but at the same time they should not have to give up every last comfort, own 1 car, a small house, never go on vacation, never eat out and have to worry about health insurance all while the 1% take everything we give up.
Edit - btw my wife and I. 1 car, 1 TV, no kids, no vacation in 5 or 6 years and our wedding was a small celebration at my Aunts house. We pay double our mortgage every month so we will own our small home on the meh(not gunshot bad but def not nice)side of town in just 6 years. We also add 15% of our income to our 401k(which at 27 has more in it then any person at my wifes factory other then the 3 top supervisors that make 3x her salary). I know what it means to live without every luxury and creature comfort.....I just do not think that 99% of Americans should have to live this way just to try and get ahead in life. People deserve more then deciding to I want a kid or a vacation, do I want to eat out twice a month or buy my own home. We dont deserve it all...but we deserve more then this.[/QUOTE]
Both you guys are missing part of the equation: things aren't as expensive as they used to be and there is a social stigma to being perceived as "poor." Although, MSI is hitting a lot closer to the bull's eye.
30 years ago, someone of your income level (adjusted for inflation, of course)... how many cars would your family have had? Televisions? Cell phones? How many days a week would you have eaten out? Gone to the movies? Would you have had pay-TV service, or just OTA feeds? Internet bill? How many video game systems would someone of your income level have had? Home PC? Washer, dryer, dish washer?
Has your standard of living dropped, or have your priorities simply changed?[/QUOTE]
[quote name='MSI Magus']Have you not heard of credit cards? Again as per usual you are completely blind to the facts and looking at 1 small side of the puzzle. Do people have more shit now then they used to? Yep! Does that mean they have a hand in their own slide towards poverty? Yep! Does that mean that their standard of living has stayed the same though? ...well sort of.
See yes you are right that peoples standard of living has stayed the same or even possibly gotten better. Problem is that its a house of cards propped up by credit cards, bank loans and borrowing against their home(not to mention lack of investing in to their 401k). All it takes is 1 small disaster and the average family can be knocked in to poverty now. Meanwhile the top 1% in this country has tripled their wealth in the last decade.
I am not like the liberals of this board who wont admit people are stupid and they are greedy. People want to live like the rich and they will put themselves in long term poverty for short term satisfaction. However I am not so naive and ignorant as you to look around, see people with TVs and cars and then disregard all data and facts that people studying economics and society give us. I am not so ignorant as to think just because my brother has a motorcycle and no health insurance it means he could be living the high life if he just moved his money around. I also think its incredibly arrogant and greedy of you to say that the middle class should never have nice things. It used to be everyone had a nice living on one income...then mom went to work...then the credit cards came in...then the loans etc etc. I believe that people deserve most of what they have....it just should not hvae to be obtained by borrowing against their
ing homes making the rich richer when they fail to one day make payment.Its time the middle class started giving up some of the creature comforts they have obtained through debt....but at the same time they should not have to give up every last comfort, own 1 car, a small house, never go on vacation, never eat out and have to worry about health insurance all while the 1% take everything we give up.
Edit - btw my wife and I. 1 car, 1 TV, no kids, no vacation in 5 or 6 years and our wedding was a small celebration at my Aunts house. We pay double our mortgage every month so we will own our small home on the meh(not gunshot bad but def not nice)side of town in just 6 years. We also add 15% of our income to our 401k(which at 27 has more in it then any person at my wifes factory other then the 3 top supervisors that make 3x her salary). I know what it means to live without every luxury and creature comfort.....I just do not think that 99% of Americans should have to live this way just to try and get ahead in life. People deserve more then deciding to I want a kid or a vacation, do I want to eat out twice a month or buy my own home. We dont deserve it all...but we deserve more then this.[/QUOTE]
Both you guys are missing part of the equation: things aren't as expensive as they used to be and there is a social stigma to being perceived as "poor." Although, MSI is hitting a lot closer to the bull's eye.
[quote name='Spokker']
I generally believe that the poor are where they are because of the decisions they make. I think it was a year or so ago that a study was released that stated that the net worth of black women was something like -$5. Of the multitude of reasons why this is, the most important in my opinion are welfare reducing the incentive to produce and save, a culture that does not respect fatherhood and education, and hair weaves. Historical racism is certainly part of it but with each passing decade this excuse loses its explanatory power.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty big on human agency, and people having some degree of control over their lives.
But you go far too far on that and ignore the role of opportunity and unequal playing fields. It is much harder for someone born into ,say, a life of abject poverty, in a broken home with lack of any guardians who really care about them, a crappy school system that's underfunded and full of drugs and violence, all the temptations of street life, along with all the hurdles of institutionalized racism.
Where someone ends up in life is a function of both human agency (the decisions they make, their work ethic, their determination to keep trying etc.) and the opportunities one is afforded--many of which are entirely out of ones hands. Especially early in life. There's not a lot an individual can do on their own to succeed in school if their parents aren't pushing them, if they're going hungry, if they're worried about violence at home and school etc.
That's where it's really up to society to fix these terrible communities and terrible schools systems so people born in these areas have a chance to escape from a life of poverty. If one can get through high school with good GPA, then they have a great chance to do whatever they want with their lives as they can get scholarships for college and rise from there.
But if they never really had a chance to do well in school due to all the obstacles and strains in their life that they were born into, then we can't really say that they're stuck in poverty because of decisions they made.
I generally believe that the poor are where they are because of the decisions they make. I think it was a year or so ago that a study was released that stated that the net worth of black women was something like -$5. Of the multitude of reasons why this is, the most important in my opinion are welfare reducing the incentive to produce and save, a culture that does not respect fatherhood and education, and hair weaves. Historical racism is certainly part of it but with each passing decade this excuse loses its explanatory power.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty big on human agency, and people having some degree of control over their lives.
But you go far too far on that and ignore the role of opportunity and unequal playing fields. It is much harder for someone born into ,say, a life of abject poverty, in a broken home with lack of any guardians who really care about them, a crappy school system that's underfunded and full of drugs and violence, all the temptations of street life, along with all the hurdles of institutionalized racism.
Where someone ends up in life is a function of both human agency (the decisions they make, their work ethic, their determination to keep trying etc.) and the opportunities one is afforded--many of which are entirely out of ones hands. Especially early in life. There's not a lot an individual can do on their own to succeed in school if their parents aren't pushing them, if they're going hungry, if they're worried about violence at home and school etc.
That's where it's really up to society to fix these terrible communities and terrible schools systems so people born in these areas have a chance to escape from a life of poverty. If one can get through high school with good GPA, then they have a great chance to do whatever they want with their lives as they can get scholarships for college and rise from there.
But if they never really had a chance to do well in school due to all the obstacles and strains in their life that they were born into, then we can't really say that they're stuck in poverty because of decisions they made.
[quote name='Spokker']It definitely hasn't. And it pretty much goes for everyone. Reason was hit hard for suggesting that the poor aren't that bad off in this country. We like to imagine that mythical poor person, usually black or Hispanic, that has seven jobs and lives in a food desert and is starving half to death, but it is generally not true. They certainly exist, but they are the exception rather than the rule.
I think it speaks to your point that 80% of people in poverty have air conditioning. In 1970, only 36% of the general population had air conditioning. Standard of living has increased substantially![/QUOTE]
AC's don't use up as much of a person's income to own as they used to.
[quote name='Spokker']I liked what you had to say about credit propping the whole thing up. I try to refrain from demonizing credit. In the hands of a competent person, it is a beautiful thing. I mean, examples are plentiful. You purchase a little car, you use it to work, go to school, whatever, and pay it off in a few years. On the other hand, it's difficult to downplay abuse of credit, an economic sin if I ever did see one.
I especially like that you appear to be living beneath your means, but I would have to see how much your video card costs first. This kind of responsibility is why you are where you are, and if you are telling the truth, why you won't experience many of the hardships that people get themselves into.
I generally believe that the poor are where they are because of the decisions they make. I think it was a year or so ago that a study was released that stated that the net worth of black women was something like -$5. Of the multitude of reasons why this is, the most important in my opinion are welfare reducing the incentive to produce and save, a culture that does not respect fatherhood and education, and hair weaves. Historical racism is certainly part of it but with each passing decade this excuse loses its explanatory power.[/quote]
LOLZ...NOTHING RACIST HERE!
I think it speaks to your point that 80% of people in poverty have air conditioning. In 1970, only 36% of the general population had air conditioning. Standard of living has increased substantially![/QUOTE]
AC's don't use up as much of a person's income to own as they used to.
[quote name='Spokker']I liked what you had to say about credit propping the whole thing up. I try to refrain from demonizing credit. In the hands of a competent person, it is a beautiful thing. I mean, examples are plentiful. You purchase a little car, you use it to work, go to school, whatever, and pay it off in a few years. On the other hand, it's difficult to downplay abuse of credit, an economic sin if I ever did see one.
I especially like that you appear to be living beneath your means, but I would have to see how much your video card costs first. This kind of responsibility is why you are where you are, and if you are telling the truth, why you won't experience many of the hardships that people get themselves into.
I generally believe that the poor are where they are because of the decisions they make. I think it was a year or so ago that a study was released that stated that the net worth of black women was something like -$5. Of the multitude of reasons why this is, the most important in my opinion are welfare reducing the incentive to produce and save, a culture that does not respect fatherhood and education, and hair weaves. Historical racism is certainly part of it but with each passing decade this excuse loses its explanatory power.[/quote]
LOLZ...NOTHING RACIST HERE!
You really know how to double-down, don't you...
[quote name='Spokker']I liked what you had to say about credit propping the whole thing up. I try to refrain from demonizing credit. In the hands of a competent person, it is a beautiful thing. I mean, examples are plentiful. You purchase a little car, you use it to work, go to school, whatever, and pay it off in a few years. On the other hand, it's difficult to downplay abuse of credit, an economic sin if I ever did see one.
I especially like that you appear to be living beneath your means, but I would have to see how much your video card costs first. This kind of responsibility is why you are where you are, and if you are telling the truth, why you won't experience many of the hardships that people get themselves into.
I generally believe that the poor are where they are because of the decisions they make. I think it was a year or so ago that a study was released that stated that the net worth of black women was something like -$5. Of the multitude of reasons why this is, the most important in my opinion are welfare reducing the incentive to produce and save, a culture that does not respect fatherhood and education, and hair weaves. Historical racism is certainly part of it but with each passing decade this excuse loses its explanatory power.
You, Mr. Magus, certainly have a choice. You can live like MSI Magus or you can live like a black woman. This seems to be a bad word in this day and age, but personality responsibility is key even in the face of poor economic decisions by policymakers (just because they weren't asking for proof of income when you bought that house, doesn't mean you had to close the deal!).[/QUOTE]
My video card like everything else is behind the times. I buy my video games a year behind when everyone else does so I can pick them up for $5-$15. The only two real guilty pleasures my wife and I have are board games and eating out. Really it does not matter how I live though, yes its a good example but it does not change the fact that Americans are being forced to sacrifice more and more to get by.
Again if liberals are guilty of saying personal responsibility has nothing to do with it, conservatives are guilty of being ignorant or choosing to ignore every fact pointing to massive inequality growing over the last few decades. As I said in the end of my post we live minimally...but we shouldn't have to. 1 hiccup, 1 heart attack, 1 lost job with no immediate replacement, 1 fire...1 event changes everything.
See you are guilty of sitting back as a privileged entitled white person and thinking anyone that is poor deserves to be poor because of the decisions you make. You refuse to look at the top 1% sending jobs over seas. You refuse to look at the constant cuts made to our education system and that people in poor neighborhoods have it even worse. You refuse to look at lack of investments in our infrastructure, science and technology which have been booms for middle class job creation. You refuse to look at the way the rich play games with taxes and lobbyists to make it so those high high taxes they pay come down to next to nothing. You refuse to look at how our system is gamed more and more for the benefit of the minority to the detriment of the majority. You basically look at things and say you and yours are doing fine so the rest must not be working as hard as you. Its disgusting that you think that its ok to sit back and snicker that if your not doing well its because your like one of those black welfare queens living high off that $500 a month goverment welfare(YEE HAW!).
And its disgusting that you ignore the facts or chose to remain ignorant. Its not the bottom of society that is entitled. Its you older rich white people who have benefited from the system bying everyone else over and now that you cant the poor over or live off the infastructure the world war 2 crowd put in place....you live off your kids and grand kids.
I especially like that you appear to be living beneath your means, but I would have to see how much your video card costs first. This kind of responsibility is why you are where you are, and if you are telling the truth, why you won't experience many of the hardships that people get themselves into.
I generally believe that the poor are where they are because of the decisions they make. I think it was a year or so ago that a study was released that stated that the net worth of black women was something like -$5. Of the multitude of reasons why this is, the most important in my opinion are welfare reducing the incentive to produce and save, a culture that does not respect fatherhood and education, and hair weaves. Historical racism is certainly part of it but with each passing decade this excuse loses its explanatory power.
You, Mr. Magus, certainly have a choice. You can live like MSI Magus or you can live like a black woman. This seems to be a bad word in this day and age, but personality responsibility is key even in the face of poor economic decisions by policymakers (just because they weren't asking for proof of income when you bought that house, doesn't mean you had to close the deal!).[/QUOTE]
My video card like everything else is behind the times. I buy my video games a year behind when everyone else does so I can pick them up for $5-$15. The only two real guilty pleasures my wife and I have are board games and eating out. Really it does not matter how I live though, yes its a good example but it does not change the fact that Americans are being forced to sacrifice more and more to get by.
Again if liberals are guilty of saying personal responsibility has nothing to do with it, conservatives are guilty of being ignorant or choosing to ignore every fact pointing to massive inequality growing over the last few decades. As I said in the end of my post we live minimally...but we shouldn't have to. 1 hiccup, 1 heart attack, 1 lost job with no immediate replacement, 1 fire...1 event changes everything.
See you are guilty of sitting back as a privileged entitled white person and thinking anyone that is poor deserves to be poor because of the decisions you make. You refuse to look at the top 1% sending jobs over seas. You refuse to look at the constant cuts made to our education system and that people in poor neighborhoods have it even worse. You refuse to look at lack of investments in our infrastructure, science and technology which have been booms for middle class job creation. You refuse to look at the way the rich play games with taxes and lobbyists to make it so those high high taxes they pay come down to next to nothing. You refuse to look at how our system is gamed more and more for the benefit of the minority to the detriment of the majority. You basically look at things and say you and yours are doing fine so the rest must not be working as hard as you. Its disgusting that you think that its ok to sit back and snicker that if your not doing well its because your like one of those black welfare queens living high off that $500 a month goverment welfare(YEE HAW!).
And its disgusting that you ignore the facts or chose to remain ignorant. Its not the bottom of society that is entitled. Its you older rich white people who have benefited from the system by
ing everyone else over and now that you cant the poor over or live off the infastructure the world war 2 crowd put in place....you live off your kids and grand kids.
[quote name='dohdough']AC's don't use up as much of a person's income to own as they used to.
[/QUOTE]
Is that really true? I'm sure the units cost much less than in the past, but energy costs have went way up over time.
Other than technology/electronics which cost a ton more when they are first developed, most things cost more than in the past due to inflation. Especially essential things like food and clothing.
I think people have more than in the past for two reasons that you and Magus mentioned: increased reliance on credit and the stigma of being poor (which leads people to save less and rack up debt to at least not look poor).
I don't think it's that things cost less as I don't see that as true other than for electronics, and that would be offset by inflation in other areas.
[/QUOTE]
Is that really true? I'm sure the units cost much less than in the past, but energy costs have went way up over time.
Other than technology/electronics which cost a ton more when they are first developed, most things cost more than in the past due to inflation. Especially essential things like food and clothing.
I think people have more than in the past for two reasons that you and Magus mentioned: increased reliance on credit and the stigma of being poor (which leads people to save less and rack up debt to at least not look poor).
I don't think it's that things cost less as I don't see that as true other than for electronics, and that would be offset by inflation in other areas.
[quote name='dohdough']AC's don't use up as much of a person's income to own as they used to.
LOLZ...NOTHING RACIST HERE!
You really know how to double-down, don't you...[/QUOTE]
It is rather funny that you can live like MSI Magus is a thought....when MSI Magus lives in a $35,000 house on the East Side of Toledo(which is not the drugs and guns on the street but is frequent break ins and not the nice part of town). I mean last year we had to spend $8,000 fixing a basement problem we were unlucky enough to not have spring up the year before we bought this house. Our savings from the last 7 years was wiped out by one single event that is going to take us a few years to recover from. My wife is about to finish school and we will then inherit $50,000 worth of student loan debt and on top of that our car is getting old so suddenly we will have that to deal with two. Chances are we will not be able to afford to keep spending double on our mortgage....meaning we become trapped in this shit house for 10+ years as we try and struggle to pay off student loans, car loans and house loans. That should not be the America we live in, an America where a family on $40,000 a year decides not to have kids and is still forced to save and sacrifice just to own a tiny house on the eh side of town and be crippled by student loan, house and car debt.
LOLZ...NOTHING RACIST HERE!
You really know how to double-down, don't you...[/QUOTE]
It is rather funny that you can live like MSI Magus is a thought....when MSI Magus lives in a $35,000 house on the East Side of Toledo(which is not the drugs and guns on the street but is frequent break ins and not the nice part of town). I mean last year we had to spend $8,000 fixing a basement problem we were unlucky enough to not have spring up the year before we bought this house. Our savings from the last 7 years was wiped out by one single event that is going to take us a few years to recover from. My wife is about to finish school and we will then inherit $50,000 worth of student loan debt and on top of that our car is getting old so suddenly we will have that to deal with two. Chances are we will not be able to afford to keep spending double on our mortgage....meaning we become trapped in this shit house for 10+ years as we try and struggle to pay off student loans, car loans and house loans. That should not be the America we live in, an America where a family on $40,000 a year decides not to have kids and is still forced to save and sacrifice just to own a tiny house on the eh side of town and be crippled by student loan, house and car debt.
elessar123
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How does a pie chart work when two slices saying top 10% and bottom 90% cover half of the pie chart?
Edit: Nevermind, zoomed in on my phone and it became clear. They should have grouped the slices correctly.
Edit: Nevermind, zoomed in on my phone and it became clear. They should have grouped the slices correctly.
[quote name='dmaul1114']Is that really true? I'm sure the units cost much less than in the past, but energy costs have went way up over time.
Other than technology/electronics which cost a ton more when they are first developed, most things cost more than in the past due to inflation. Especially essential things like food and clothing.
I think people have more than in the past for two reasons that you and Magus mentioned: increased reliance on credit and the stigma of being poor (which leads people to save less and rack up debt to at least not look poor).
I don't think it's that things cost less as I don't see that as true other than for electronics, and that would be offset by inflation in other areas.[/QUOTE]
Air conditionrrs and other goods are more energy efficient. Mine cost 100 dollars and can operate all summer for the price of a cab tide. Also used items are practically free.
People are getting pinched by falling incomes AND big expenses like housing and healthcare or education.
Other than technology/electronics which cost a ton more when they are first developed, most things cost more than in the past due to inflation. Especially essential things like food and clothing.
I think people have more than in the past for two reasons that you and Magus mentioned: increased reliance on credit and the stigma of being poor (which leads people to save less and rack up debt to at least not look poor).
I don't think it's that things cost less as I don't see that as true other than for electronics, and that would be offset by inflation in other areas.[/QUOTE]
Air conditionrrs and other goods are more energy efficient. Mine cost 100 dollars and can operate all summer for the price of a cab tide. Also used items are practically free.
People are getting pinched by falling incomes AND big expenses like housing and healthcare or education.
[quote name='MSI Magus']It is rather funny that you can live like MSI Magus is a thought....when MSI Magus lives in a $35,000 house on the East Side of Toledo(which is not the drugs and guns on the street but is frequent break ins and not the nice part of town). I mean last year we had to spend $8,000 fixing a basement problem we were unlucky enough to not have spring up the year before we bought this house. Our savings from the last 7 years was wiped out by one single event that is going to take us a few years to recover from. That should not be the America we live in.[/QUOTE]
Your frugality is admirable for sure, and should be applauded as so many live well above their means.
But you beat your own drum on this stuff far too often and usually don't mention in these posts that your disabled and don't work, and thus you and your wife are living off her income.
So you're really not that bad off given that, but rather are lucky to have found someone who loves you and is fine being the sole breadwinner.
Doesn't negate the frugality of your family, but does make me
everytime you beat your chest about the sacrifices you make. Your wife is the one making the sacrifices and you should be more upfront about that in your posts IMO.
Your frugality is admirable for sure, and should be applauded as so many live well above their means.
But you beat your own drum on this stuff far too often and usually don't mention in these posts that your disabled and don't work, and thus you and your wife are living off her income.
So you're really not that bad off given that, but rather are lucky to have found someone who loves you and is fine being the sole breadwinner.
Doesn't negate the frugality of your family, but does make me
everytime you beat your chest about the sacrifices you make. Your wife is the one making the sacrifices and you should be more upfront about that in your posts IMO.[quote name='dmaul1114']I think people have more than in the past for two reasons that you and Magus mentioned: increased reliance on credit and the stigma of being poor (which leads people to save less and rack up debt to at least not look poor).[/QUOTE]
I'd like to suggest that two-income families have had an effect on this as well.
I'd like to suggest that two-income families have had an effect on this as well.
[quote name='chiwii']The vast majority of Americans have a very nice standard of living. They might not be live like the rich they see on tv, but it's still very good compared to the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]
This is the perfect counter-statement to those who babble "You want to get rid of government, go to Somalia!"
This is the perfect counter-statement to those who babble "You want to get rid of government, go to Somalia!"
[quote name='Msut77']Air conditionrrs and other goods are more energy efficient. Mine cost 100 dollars and can operate all summer for the price of a cab tide. Also used items are practically free.
People are getting pinched by falling incomes AND big expenses like housing and healthcare or education.[/QUOTE]
The cost of a cab ride? Do you live in a closet? Or somewhere it doesn't get hot?
My electric bill is around $120-150 a month in the summer, vs. $50-60 in the winter (seldom use the heat as it isn't cold very often here).
That's with central air though, in a 900 sq ft condo and the thermostat kept on 74. Maybe it's cheaper with an energy efficient window unit or a higher tolerance for being hot (Iing hate hot weather).
People are getting pinched by falling incomes AND big expenses like housing and healthcare or education.[/QUOTE]
The cost of a cab ride? Do you live in a closet? Or somewhere it doesn't get hot?
My electric bill is around $120-150 a month in the summer, vs. $50-60 in the winter (seldom use the heat as it isn't cold very often here).
That's with central air though, in a 900 sq ft condo and the thermostat kept on 74. Maybe it's cheaper with an energy efficient window unit or a higher tolerance for being hot (I
ing hate hot weather).[quote name='dmaul1114']Is that really true? I'm sure the units cost much less than in the past, but energy costs have went way up over time.
Other than technology/electronics which cost a ton more when they are first developed, most things cost more than in the past due to inflation. Especially essential things like food and clothing.
I think people have more than in the past for two reasons that you and Magus mentioned: increased reliance on credit and the stigma of being poor (which leads people to save less and rack up debt to at least not look poor).
I don't think it's that things cost less as I don't see that as true other than for electronics, and that would be offset by inflation in other areas.[/QUOTE]
Spokker brought up the ac example, so I wanted to explain why it was wrong. It's an old argumentative trick to say that poor people aren't poor because they have a bed, radio, tv, clothes, vcr, dvd player, computer, cellphone, etc. But yeah, most things actually cost less.
[quote name='dmaul1114']The cost of a cab ride? Do you live in a closet? Or somewhere it doesn't get hot?
My electric bill is around $120-150 a month in the summer, vs. $50-60 in the winter (seldom use the heat as it isn't cold very often here).
That's with central air though, in a 900 sq ft condo and the thermostat kept on 74. Maybe it's cheaper with an energy efficient window unit or a higher tolerance for being hot (Iing hate hot weather).[/QUOTE]
LOLZ...wtf. I'm in 1200 sq ft condo and my electric, gas, and internet costs less than $120 a month in the summer. Electric peaks at $60 in the summer for me. And I keep it at 73.
Other than technology/electronics which cost a ton more when they are first developed, most things cost more than in the past due to inflation. Especially essential things like food and clothing.
I think people have more than in the past for two reasons that you and Magus mentioned: increased reliance on credit and the stigma of being poor (which leads people to save less and rack up debt to at least not look poor).
I don't think it's that things cost less as I don't see that as true other than for electronics, and that would be offset by inflation in other areas.[/QUOTE]
Spokker brought up the ac example, so I wanted to explain why it was wrong. It's an old argumentative trick to say that poor people aren't poor because they have a bed, radio, tv, clothes, vcr, dvd player, computer, cellphone, etc. But yeah, most things actually cost less.
[quote name='dmaul1114']The cost of a cab ride? Do you live in a closet? Or somewhere it doesn't get hot?
My electric bill is around $120-150 a month in the summer, vs. $50-60 in the winter (seldom use the heat as it isn't cold very often here).
That's with central air though, in a 900 sq ft condo and the thermostat kept on 74. Maybe it's cheaper with an energy efficient window unit or a higher tolerance for being hot (I
ing hate hot weather).[/QUOTE]LOLZ...wtf. I'm in 1200 sq ft condo and my electric, gas, and internet costs less than $120 a month in the summer. Electric peaks at $60 in the summer for me. And I keep it at 73.
[quote name='UncleBob']I'd like to suggest that two-income families have had an effect on this as well.[/QUOTE]
For sure. Relevant to Magus' situation as well. If he could work, and thus be a two income family like most families today, they'd be a solid middle class household.
Hard to get buy on one income these days, nearly impossible if both spouses lack college degrees etc. with the decline of blue collar jobs that pay a living wage.
For sure. Relevant to Magus' situation as well. If he could work, and thus be a two income family like most families today, they'd be a solid middle class household.
Hard to get buy on one income these days, nearly impossible if both spouses lack college degrees etc. with the decline of blue collar jobs that pay a living wage.
[quote name='dmaul1114']The cost of a cab ride? Do you live in a closet? Or somewhere it doesn't get hot?
My electric bill is around $120-150 a month in the summer, vs. $50-60 in the winter (seldom use the heat as it isn't cold very often here).
That's with central air though, in a 900 sq ft condo and the thermostat kept on 74. Maybe it's cheaper with an energy efficient window unit or a higher tolerance for being hot (Iing hate hot weather).[/QUOTE]
Small room. I am of course talking about just the running the one unit.
My electric bill is around $120-150 a month in the summer, vs. $50-60 in the winter (seldom use the heat as it isn't cold very often here).
That's with central air though, in a 900 sq ft condo and the thermostat kept on 74. Maybe it's cheaper with an energy efficient window unit or a higher tolerance for being hot (I
ing hate hot weather).[/QUOTE]Small room. I am of course talking about just the running the one unit.
[quote name='Msut77']Small room. I am of course talking about just the running the one unit.[/QUOTE]
That makes more sense.
With my lack of tolerance from the heat, and being stuck in the south for work currently, I'd never give up central air. I'd rate that as my top luxury expense--I'd ditch cable/satellite, buying games etc. before giving up central AC.
That makes more sense.
With my lack of tolerance from the heat, and being stuck in the south for work currently, I'd never give up central air. I'd rate that as my top luxury expense--I'd ditch cable/satellite, buying games etc. before giving up central AC.
[quote name='dmaul1114']Your frugality is admirable for sure, and should be applauded as so many live well above their means.
But you beat your own drum on this stuff far too often and usually don't mention in these posts that your disabled and don't work, and thus you and your wife are living off her income.
So you're really not that bad off given that, but rather are lucky to have found someone who loves you and is fine being the sole breadwinner.
Doesn't negate the frugality of your family, but does make me everytime you beat your chest about the sacrifices you make. Your wife is the one making the sacrifices and you should be more upfront about that in your posts IMO.[/QUOTE]
First off I recognize the massive amounts of sacrifices my wife makes. I say it to her all the time and over a life time she will sacrifice an amazing amount for me and I am lucky to have her. That said it always cracks me up when people judge me for it. When I meet my wife she had a lot of debt. She had used her credit card the way most Americans use theirs. She also was in the middle of a mental break down. I paid off her debt using the little savings I had tucked away(we are talking a few $1,000 so to me that was a lot). I got her in to a psychologists and spent the nights laying awake as she cried and worked through her problems. I took her to church and went back to school with her to help her find herself. I spent the first 2 or 3 years of our relationship sacrificing everything I had to get the person I loved stable. You shouldnt judge those you do not know because you never know what their situation is. My wife has given up far more for me then I for her...but it doesnt mean I never brought anything to the table.
I would also like to add how funny it is that even the most liberal of people react differently because I am a guy. Whenever my wife and I encounter people who have a wife who does not work nothing is thought of it. But because I am a guy it doesnt matter that I do all the housework or any sacrifice I ever made...all that is ever said is "man your lucky to have a wife that takes care of you". My wife does far more then me(as me arguing online while she is busting her ass first at school then at work shows)but it is still amusing how regardless of if I see that or what I do...all that matters to most people is that I am a guy that does not work.
As for the fact that we are getting by on 1 income so we should have to make more sacrifices. That is true and its not. My wife makes $40,000 or so a year which is I believe a few $1,000 above the median now days. Combine that fact with the fact that we never had children and it seems we should not have to make any more sacrifices to catch up with your average family. 2 mouths to feed, 2 bodies to clothe and 2 people to take to the Dr/handle other needs is far less expensive. 2 people on $40,000 a year should not mean a lifetime of sacrifice, it should not mean buying a house on the eh side of town and still be saddled with massive amounts of debt your whole life.
P.S another part of why I dont add in the disabled thing with every post is because you guys always hammer it home. Its clear you all know about it since I have had it brought up many many many times(usually as an attack or a judgement). Edit - If I come across aggressive in this its not intended, I dont think you were intending to be rude or aggressive and I was not intending to come across as such either(just trying to state what our situation is realistically and hope people can not have it be an issue with my posts finally).
But you beat your own drum on this stuff far too often and usually don't mention in these posts that your disabled and don't work, and thus you and your wife are living off her income.
So you're really not that bad off given that, but rather are lucky to have found someone who loves you and is fine being the sole breadwinner.
Doesn't negate the frugality of your family, but does make me
everytime you beat your chest about the sacrifices you make. Your wife is the one making the sacrifices and you should be more upfront about that in your posts IMO.[/QUOTE]First off I recognize the massive amounts of sacrifices my wife makes. I say it to her all the time and over a life time she will sacrifice an amazing amount for me and I am lucky to have her. That said it always cracks me up when people judge me for it. When I meet my wife she had a lot of debt. She had used her credit card the way most Americans use theirs. She also was in the middle of a mental break down. I paid off her debt using the little savings I had tucked away(we are talking a few $1,000 so to me that was a lot). I got her in to a psychologists and spent the nights laying awake as she cried and worked through her problems. I took her to church and went back to school with her to help her find herself. I spent the first 2 or 3 years of our relationship sacrificing everything I had to get the person I loved stable. You shouldnt judge those you do not know because you never know what their situation is. My wife has given up far more for me then I for her...but it doesnt mean I never brought anything to the table.
I would also like to add how funny it is that even the most liberal of people react differently because I am a guy. Whenever my wife and I encounter people who have a wife who does not work nothing is thought of it. But because I am a guy it doesnt matter that I do all the housework or any sacrifice I ever made...all that is ever said is "man your lucky to have a wife that takes care of you". My wife does far more then me(as me arguing online while she is busting her ass first at school then at work shows)but it is still amusing how regardless of if I see that or what I do...all that matters to most people is that I am a guy that does not work.
As for the fact that we are getting by on 1 income so we should have to make more sacrifices. That is true and its not. My wife makes $40,000 or so a year which is I believe a few $1,000 above the median now days. Combine that fact with the fact that we never had children and it seems we should not have to make any more sacrifices to catch up with your average family. 2 mouths to feed, 2 bodies to clothe and 2 people to take to the Dr/handle other needs is far less expensive. 2 people on $40,000 a year should not mean a lifetime of sacrifice, it should not mean buying a house on the eh side of town and still be saddled with massive amounts of debt your whole life.
P.S another part of why I dont add in the disabled thing with every post is because you guys always hammer it home. Its clear you all know about it since I have had it brought up many many many times(usually as an attack or a judgement). Edit - If I come across aggressive in this its not intended, I dont think you were intending to be rude or aggressive and I was not intending to come across as such either(just trying to state what our situation is realistically and hope people can not have it be an issue with my posts finally).
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[quote name='dohdough']LOLZ...wtf. I'm in 1200 sq ft condo and my electric, gas, and internet costs less than $120 a month in the summer. Electric peaks at $60 in the summer for me. And I keep it at 73.[/QUOTE]
That's crazy cheap. We're in a similar sized place, and we pay about $120 for just electricity in the summer to keep the place at 78 -- and it rarely gets above 85 outside.
[/QUOTE]That's crazy cheap. We're in a similar sized place, and we pay about $120 for just electricity in the summer to keep the place at 78 -- and it rarely gets above 85 outside.
[quote name='dohdough']
LOLZ...wtf. I'm in 1200 sq ft condo and my electric, gas, and internet costs less than $120 a month in the summer. Electric peaks at $60 in the summer for me. And I keep it at 73.[/QUOTE]
You live in Boston or near there don't you? I live in Atlanta. It's hot as here from like April to October. We had 100 some days of 90+ degrees this past summer.
Plus energy costs vary by area, we've had pretty big increases here the past few years (up 20% or so since I first moved down here). I don't have gas--so that drives up the electric costs some with electric hot water, oven etc. Internet is included in the condo fees, not sure what the exact amount for that is (condo fees are $300 for my unit). Have to pay water/sewage now too. That's been running $40 something a month, which sucks as before it was included in the condo fees (which were $330 before they put in individual water meters in the spring).
Magus, you're right that I didn't mean to be negative. I don't think there's anything wrong with your wife supporting you, and agree that it's a stupid double standard in society that males are expected to be the breadwinner. I was just pointing it out as not everyone is a regular here and your situation comes across the wrong way if one is not familiar with your situation.
I do agree that it stinks that it can be hard to have a decent middle class life on $40,000 these days. Cost of living keeps increasing while wages have stagnated for the middle class. Which is why most households have moved to both spouses working as it's just hard to have a quality standard of living on one income unless one spouse is very successful. And even then most still work so they can have more--I'm guilty of that mindset. I make ok money, but would never be interested in marrying/living with a woman who wasn't also successful in her career and making decent money. Having a solid second income to boost standard of living is one of the few tangible benefits I personally see to settling down.
LOLZ...wtf. I'm in 1200 sq ft condo and my electric, gas, and internet costs less than $120 a month in the summer. Electric peaks at $60 in the summer for me. And I keep it at 73.
[/QUOTE]You live in Boston or near there don't you? I live in Atlanta. It's hot as
here from like April to October. We had 100 some days of 90+ degrees this past summer.Plus energy costs vary by area, we've had pretty big increases here the past few years (up 20% or so since I first moved down here). I don't have gas--so that drives up the electric costs some with electric hot water, oven etc. Internet is included in the condo fees, not sure what the exact amount for that is (condo fees are $300 for my unit). Have to pay water/sewage now too. That's been running $40 something a month, which sucks as before it was included in the condo fees (which were $330 before they put in individual water meters in the spring).
Magus, you're right that I didn't mean to be negative. I don't think there's anything wrong with your wife supporting you, and agree that it's a stupid double standard in society that males are expected to be the breadwinner. I was just pointing it out as not everyone is a regular here and your situation comes across the wrong way if one is not familiar with your situation.
I do agree that it stinks that it can be hard to have a decent middle class life on $40,000 these days. Cost of living keeps increasing while wages have stagnated for the middle class. Which is why most households have moved to both spouses working as it's just hard to have a quality standard of living on one income unless one spouse is very successful. And even then most still work so they can have more--I'm guilty of that mindset. I make ok money, but would never be interested in marrying/living with a woman who wasn't also successful in her career and making decent money. Having a solid second income to boost standard of living is one of the few tangible benefits I personally see to settling down.
bread's done