We won't get a proper sequel until after RPG Thread VIII-2!

[quote name='Hell Monkey']I got to Chapter 7 or 8 I think and was just so bored with it. The story could not pull me in enough for me to keep going along a path that I had no choice but to follow. I may go back someday but not for awhile.[/QUOTE]
That's the tough thing about recommending this game. :p I want to tell you, yes, keep sticking it out, because Chapter 11 and onwards, along with 40 hours of postgame questing, is one of the best experiences I've ever had with a game. But I also recognize how completely unreasonable and dumb it is to tell someone to play something they don't like for 25 hours before it gets to "the good part."
 
I agree with ryu, though i was a big fan of the narrative. We all have different tastes, linear rpgs are just as deserving of respect as nonlinear ones are. Bioware has stripped down their rpgs as well and to great success -- people are just sensitive about the FF franchise because it means different things to different people.

XIII, XII and X have been a string of brilliant game design, and i think its a bit unfair to call them half assed merely because they all boast wildly different design philosophies.
 
I tried to like XIII. I even like most of the characters (Hope and Snow didn't really thrill me and Vanille's voice was ear shattering), but just the pacing at least early on was killer.

XII I had very mixed feelings on. I got about 15 hours into it before I gave up. I felt as I played that Basch or Ashe should have been the main character, that Vaan was just along for the ride. I couldn't get into him as a "focus" and it hurt the game for me.

X I absolutely loved. Even when I was pulling my hair out in those damn mini-games every aspect of it from story, combat, or characters were just what I looked for in an RPG.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']XIII, XII and X have been a string of brilliant game design, and i think its a bit unfair to call them half assed merely because they all boast wildly different design philosophies.[/QUOTE]
FF12 is my second favorite game of all time (after Mass Effect 2), and I have to admit, as much as I love FF13 and respect that it's experimental and different, if it had just been "Final Fantasy XII with HD graphics" I would probably like that even more. :whistle2:# It still makes me kind of sad that there continue to be games that borrow and build on the foundations laid by FF4, or FF7, or FF10, and probably always will be, but FF12 turned out to be an evolutionary dead end.
 
I was hoping to get into Parasite Eve 2 before The 3rd Birthday came out, but it looks like I got scammed by CAG :(

On another note Dragon Age 2 was a huge letdown from what I expected. Game is full of glitches everywhere. Didn't really feel any close connection to any of your companions like I did for DA:O
 
[quote name='default_shepard']Actually, Suikoden 3's visuals still look good today, IMO. I'm not sure how to describe it, but there's something about the character models, they seem more "solid" or "physical" than most, like they actually have mass or something.[/QUOTE]
I think all Suikoden games' visuals hold up well. The PS1 Suikodens look better than most PS1 era RPGs that tried to do 3D.
 
I loved FF12 too, I'm always surprised by how many people lump it in with FF13 when talking about the decline of the series.

[quote name='voltanis99']
On another note Dragon Age 2 was a huge letdown from what I expected. Game is full of glitches everywhere. Didn't really feel any close connection to any of your companions like I did for DA:O[/QUOTE]

It's definitely a glitchfest (the entire final quest was glitched for me, including invisible templars and environments and characters with absolutely no textures) but I still found some enjoyment in it despite its many flaws. That said, I've never played a game where it was more obvious on every possible level how much of a rush job it was. You'd think BioWare as a dev would have the cachet by this point to stand up to EA and say "we'll release this when we're good and ready", but I guess nobody does that and lives to tell the tale.
 
Because the internet didnt rage over XII? Good times.

Now that forums are so mainstream I don't think an FF can be released without a large amount of crying being heard. Though from a business standpoint it clearly has no effect on square's designs.
 
[quote name='voltanis99']I was hoping to get into Parasite Eve 2 before The 3rd Birthday came out, but it looks like I got scammed by CAG :([/QUOTE]

Doesn't help with the scam but I think it should be on PSN soon.
 
They raged against XII just as much as they raged against XIII. The battle system wasn't anything people wanted. They never played Vagrant Story and they sure as hell didn't want those kind of battles in XII.

Final Fantasy fans are a weird bunch. Change everything and it pisses them off. Change a few things and you destroyed what was good. Change nothing and people piss and moan that the series is archaic.
 
[quote name='depascal22']They raged against XII just as much as they raged against XIII. The battle system wasn't anything people wanted. They never played Vagrant Story and they sure as hell didn't want those kind of battles in XII.

Final Fantasy fans are a weird bunch. Change everything and it pisses them off. Change a few things and you destroyed what was good. Change nothing and people piss and moan that the series is archaic.[/QUOTE]


Video game reviwers complain the series is ARchaic. I 'm simple. Keep the gameplay the same and give me a new story and I'm pretty ahppy.

I actually didn't mind XII's battle system, characters made me mad, lol. Vagrant Story rules on that note.
 
[quote name='depascal22']They raged against XII just as much as they raged against XIII. The battle system wasn't anything people wanted. They never played Vagrant Story and they sure as hell didn't want those kind of battles in XII.[/QUOTE]

Wow, what!? Vagrant Story and FFXII are nothing alike, especially when it comes to combat. I love Vagrant Story and I hate FFXII. Like Vagrant Story is a fun game and I liked the pacing, combat, plot, and focus on dungeon exploration, whereas FFXII had really boring pacing, the combat was ok, the plot was awful, and exploration was pointless because all the chests were random (in a bad way).

As far as the newer FF games, I loved X, thought XII was bad, and I'm still undecided on XIII.
 
[quote name='Rodimus']To the people who liked FFXIII, do you think this linear style was a good choice?[/QUOTE]
Didn't bother me, all they did was remove the illusion of freedom.
 
[quote name='pete5883']Didn't bother me, all they did was remove the illusion of freedom.[/QUOTE]

And also the actual freedom.

[quote name='Rodimus']To the people who liked FFXIII, do you think this linear style was a good choice?[/QUOTE]

If they had made the game last for 15 hours or less, then I probably would have been fine with it (gameplay-wise). But as it stands, 40+ hours of linearity was just too repetitive for me.
 
I finally cave into Mass Effect. After my fourth or fifth time attempting to get into it, I finally did. Over the past month I beat both Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. I really enjoyed both alot, however the first one is by far my favorite. ME2 still had some RPG elements in it, but they really hid them behind the game mechanics as opposed to the first one. It just seemed like a dumbed down version of ME1.
I haven't played any of the DLC yet, are the really necessary or any good?

Also, I'm finally getting back to Tales of the Abyss after my very much failed attempt here on the boards to get a community playthrough together. I take alot of blame for that one, I was going through some REAL real life stuff. I should have came out and addressed the other CAG's who were involved and I never did. For that my apologies ladies and gentlemen.

Anyways, ToA is pretty fun. The story is just a tad bit confusing with the way the world itself functions but the game looks and plays pretty well. Except for the load times, yikes.
 
[quote name='chibamm']II haven't played any of the DLC yet, are the really necessary or any good?

[/QUOTE]

Lair of the Shadow Broker is excellent and necessary. Overlord is also good not sure how much it is setting up anything for ME3 though.
 
[quote name='Rodimus']To the people who liked FFXIII, do you think this linear style was a good choice?[/QUOTE]

I enjoyed FFXIII for what it was. I wasn't overly thrilled by the linear style, but it does open up some after about 20 hours in. I know that it is a long time for a game to open up. I do think that the linear style fit with the story though. Since they were kind of a group of rebels that were being hunted down, it wouldn't exactly have been easy for them to waltz around wherever they wanted.

I really enjoyed the combat. Once you get your characters developed some and get some good Paradigms, the combat really shines. I was a Paradigm Shifting fool in the boss battles. I finished the campaign, but I haven't completed all of the post-game stuff. I want to, but my backlog is so big of other RPGs, that I put it on the back burner as well. The only issue with that is that I'll be rusty with the combat.
 
[quote name='Lokki']
I really enjoyed the combat. Once you get your characters developed some and get some good Paradigms, the combat really shines. I was a Paradigm Shifting fool in the boss battles. I finished the campaign, but I haven't completed all of the post-game stuff. I want to, but my backlog is so big of other RPGs, that I put it on the back burner as well. The only issue with that is that I'll be rusty with the combat.[/QUOTE]

It was actually the battle system which ruined the experience for me, but I guess it's just a case of different tastes. I won't bore everyone with a wall of text on why I thought the battle system was filled with horrible design choices though. :D
 
[quote name='Lokki']I was a Paradigm Shifting fool in the boss battles. I finished the campaign, but I haven't completed all of the post-game stuff. I want to, but my backlog is so big of other RPGs, that I put it on the back burner as well. The only issue with that is that I'll be rusty with the combat.[/QUOTE]
You really should get back to it, if the combat was what you liked about the game. The whole campaign is just a warmup for the toughest and most involved postgame battles, and that's where the Paradigm system really shines.
 
I disliked the battle system in ff 12 so much that I'm not interested in playing 13. I really hate real time battle systems where it's just two guys swinging back and forth. No dodging, no blocking. He with the most hit points wins.
 
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i received a lot of recommendation NOT to play 13, so i didn't.

12 was a "hate it or love it" so i just picked it up when it was cheap. and somehow, i neither hated it or loved it. it also took me like 4 months to beat the game since i would get really into it for like 2 days, then i'd stop playing for weeks, then get really into it for 2 days...
 
The battle system in FF12 is exactly as complex as you choose to make it. It's definitely possible to get more strategic with the set-up and execution of battles. I kind of view it like a poor man's version of Dragon Age: Origin's battle system, similar insofar as you can set up tactics, etc though obviously not nearly as strategic with positioning, crowd control, etc. 12's battle system is far from perfect, though I do prefer it to 13's.
 
[quote name='eldergamer']I disliked the battle system in ff 12 so much that I'm not interested in playing 13. I really hate real time battle systems where it's just two guys swinging back and forth. No dodging, no blocking. He with the most hit points wins.[/QUOTE]
I do think that's a reasonable criticism of 12, but just FYI, 13 is absolutely nothing like it. Despite being automated to a certain degree, the Paradigm Shift system requires more moment-to-moment attention than pretty much any other FF battle system.
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']You really should get back to it, if the combat was what you liked about the game. The whole campaign is just a warmup for the toughest and most involved postgame battles, and that's where the Paradigm system really shines.[/QUOTE]

I want to. It has been about 6 months since I completed the campaign. I'm already rusty now. I have several other really good RPGs in my backlog that I want to get to though. The post-game stuff and my desire to eventually play it what keeps me from trading the game in though.

[quote name='Ryuukishi']I do think that's a reasonable criticism of 12, but just FYI, 13 is absolutely nothing like it.[/quote]

I have to admit that I haven't played 12. I wanted to, but at the time I had very little time for games, much less RPGs. I guess I need to check if my PS3 (80GB with partial PS2 BC) can play it. I still have my old PS2, but I've put it in my 8 year old son's room.

[quote name='Ryuukishi']Despite being automated to a certain degree, the Paradigm Shift system requires more moment-to-moment attention than pretty much any other FF battle system.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's what I was eluding to earlier. Once you have some good paradigms set up (I forget the names now), you have a lot of flexibility. I used Lightning, Fang, and Hope for my main 3. I had some great Buff/Debuff, Damage, & Healing, Paradigms set up. Changing them on the fly during battle definitely requires more attention.

I recently finished Magna Carta 2 and I was finding myself wishing for something more like the Paradigms than the Chain/Chain Break combos of MC2. I really enjoyed Magna Carta 2 though.
 
[quote name='Lokki']I have to admit that I haven't played 12. I wanted to, but at the time I had very little time for games, much less RPGs. I guess I need to check if my PS3 (80GB with partial PS2 BC) can play it. I still have my old PS2, but I've put it in my 8 year old son's room. [/QUOTE]

It does. That's how I played it :D
 
Oh yeah, about FF12... I felt like the battle system was so easy because you could pretty much set the right behavior and let it play itself. It was only during gimmick battles or during difficult battles requiring precise timing (which are pretty much gimmicks anyway) that you had to really pay a lot of attention to and manually intervene.

However, I'm sure that if you put in the ability to program behavior in most JRPGs, they could play themselves anyway.
 
FF12s battle system wasn't that bad. I loved healing and buffing up the team and made it feel like an MMO which I thought was enjoyable. I barely remember the story though. I didn't find it to be as memorable as other Final Fantasies.

As for FF13, it had a lot of potential story-wise but it just wasn't that interesting. Sazh, IMO, was the only one that really had some good development, what with the whole thing with his son and such. Fang and Vanille were... interesting. I would have loved to know more about Fang. Lightning was cool and a badass, but eh. Hopefully XIII-2 fixes these issues and adds some sort of good character development and you know... a good story.
 
If you look at how the story progresses and the ending message, I think there was an adequate amount of character development in place. FF games never were terribly deep in that aspect more so than they were emotionally engaging. I noticed many people don't point out how different the narrative style is with XIII as compared to other installments, because I think that's naturally another reason some people didn't enjoy it.

It thrusts you into things with very little information, and the beginning is very fast paced (some people call it slow but I mean...what?). You're left with a bunch of characters that are all screwed and the story presents no goal, no identifiable enemy, or purpose for the player or the characters to deal with. Some people find that when they are confused about a story element, something must be wrong with the writing -- but some people like it. No surprise that I was big fan of Lost and also enjoyed FFXIII's plot =p.

There's that complaint, and then there are those who are upset about having an unmemorable villain -- again a matter of what you're looking for in a game. XIII is more focused on the conflicts the characters have with themselves, and when each has gone through rising above their individual plight, they finally come together at the end -- to face a power that that bears no personal vendetta or history to your characters, but a being that represents the flaws and power of the human race. They aren't insanely deep characters that are up for much literary analysis, but this is FF we're talking here, and for what it's out to achieve it makes some touching achievements with each character, and a beautiful ending to boot.

My personal favorite section of the game is where Lightning is angry and confused after being branded, and abandons Hope (lol) and the others, because since the beginning of the game she's just been hostile towards others as a result of the guilt she feels over her sister. It isn't until her Eidolon sequence where she saves Hope, and then becomes the big sister figure to him that she never could be to her sister.

It's simple, corny, and yet meaningful, and that's what I've always liked about FF games (most of them). There's going to be whiny characters, annoying kids and cringe-worthy moments, but to the people complaining about these elements and comparing against other FFs, I have to ask -- how thick are your nostalgia goggles?

For example, I consider FFVI to be one of, and possibly the greatest in the franchise, and its characters are so simple its almost comical. But it's paced beautifully and manages to be incredibly engaging. Anything deeper would have ruined it. I recommend Planescape Torment or other such games if you're looking for something truly engrossing.

--

Onto FFXII...

Oh yeah, about FF12... I felt like the battle system was so easy because you could pretty much set the right behavior and let it play itself. It was only during gimmick battles or during difficult battles requiring precise timing (which are pretty much gimmicks anyway) that you had to really pay a lot of attention to and manually intervene.

I think this is a good example of how different gamers have different perceptions of reward in gaming. You're the man behind the gambits in FFXII, seeing them work smoothly is supposed to the most rewarding part of the combat. The game encourages gambit usage clearly because the micromanagement of the pop up menu is super impractical to use throughout the game. No surprise that nearly everyone I hear complain about the battle system are the ones who distanced themselves from the gambit menu in favor of playing manually -- and boy does that sound horrible. Because manual play is done so much better in a game like FFX, not XII.

The game isn't automated since you yourself do the work, and that's the reward. Fun for some, but others may not be able to see past that wall. And there's no problem with that, I have my fair share of game designs I hate too.
 
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[quote name='panzerfaust']
It's simple, corny, and yet meaningful, and that's what I've always liked about FF games (most of them). There's going to be whiny characters, annoying kids and cringe-worthy moments, but to the people complaining about these elements and comparing against other FFs, I have to ask -- how thick are your nostalgia goggles?

For example, I consider FFVI to be one of, and possibly the greatest in the franchise, and its characters are so simple its almost comical. But it's paced beautifully and manages to be incredibly engaging. Anything deeper would have ruined it. I recommend Planescape Torment or other such games if you're looking for something truly engrossing.[/QUOTE]

I think the problem with comparing FFXIII to some of the older games in the series is that they were released at completely different times with different standards and different graphics.

With an old 16-bit RPG, a lot was left to your imagination. On the surface, the characters may have corny dialogue, but you could still fill in the blanks with your imagination. With FFXIII (and HD era RPGs in general), there are far less blanks to fill in. Everything is told/shown to you exactly how it is, so if that is cheesy, then there is no room for building past that. So what might seem cute for a couple of 16-bit sprites to say comes off as cringeworthy when said by realistic looking humans. And on top of that I personally felt like FFXIII's story just had more cringeworthy moments than any other RPG I've ever played, without the emotional attachment to make it tolerable. So I don't think that people should necessarily expect something deeper from these kind of JRPGs, but they should at least expect some better dialogue and characters in this day and age.
 
FFX is the corniest FF. It's narrative is also arguably the best of the franchise, and the deepest for that matter.

Play it again, you'll cringe a lot more now that you're older, but it's still great. People don't take their age into account here either. While FFs can appeal to all ages and are designed to, they are probably going to be most enjoyed in your early teens IMO.

Cheesy != bad. Every FF is cheesy, they thrive off that typical style of Japanese story telling. You're right that modern games should have more natural sounding dialogue compared to a game like FFVI -- and obviously FFX, X-2, XII, and XIII have all made huge improvements. FFXII is probably the best sounding because that team just works with old english dialogue so well. But compare XIII against X and everything sounds much more natural. The scenes between Lightning and Sazh at the very beginning had me grinning immediately because I noticed how naturally they bounced off each other, perfectly displaying each personality.

Expecting deeper characters is something I disagree with though, because that's entirely up to Square on if they want to change their entire (and very successful) design philosophy. What they work with makes for smooth flowing and fantastical adventures with colorful characters, I ask for no more than that, if I ever did I'd be playing different RPGs -- which I of course do when I'm looking for something more mature.

I think the two worst lines in XIII were "moms are tough" and hope said something stupid sounding before the final encounter. Also, that Nora reunion in Eden made me want to kill myself. And lets not forget nearly every game from Japan struggles with this issue, what sounds natural there isn't going to come across as smoothly here.
 
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[quote name='panzerfaust']FFX is the corniest FF. It's narrative is also arguably the best of the franchise, and the deepest for that matter.

Play it again, you'll cringe a lot more now that you're older, but it's still great. People don't take their age into account here either. While FFs can appeal to all ages and are designed to, they are probably going to be most enjoyed in your early teens IMO.

Cheesy != bad. Every FF is cheesy, they thrive off that typical style of Japanese story telling. You're right that modern games should have more natural sounding dialogue compared to a game like FFVI -- and obviously FFX, X-2, XII, and XIII have all made huge improvements. FFXII is probably the best sounding because that team just works with old english dialogue so well. But compare XIII against X and everything sounds much more natural. The scenes between Lightning and Sazh at the very beginning had me grinning immediately because I noticed how naturally they bounced off each other, perfectly displaying each personality.

I think the two worst lines in XIII were "moms are tough" and hope said something stupid sounding before the final encounter. Also, that Nora reunion in Eden made me want to kill myself. And lets not forget nearly every game from Japan struggles with this issue, what sounds natural there isn't going to come across as smoothly here.[/QUOTE]

I've never played X.

I do agree about the age thing though. I think a lot of people were younger when they first played a JRPG. I think part of the problem is that FF has "grown up" with us on the outside, but on the inside it is still cheesy. And this makes for an awkward experience. Cheesy can be good when the tone of the game matches it (such as Valkyria Chronicles or any Pixar movie), but the problem comes when FFXIII looks likes a grown up and wants to be treated like a grown up, but it still has the brain of a child. And even this could be forgivable if the characters were at least emotionally compelling instead of cringeworthy. I think the story just lacked that certain spark for most people that lets us forgive (or even enjoy) some of these issues in other games. I think part of this could maybe be attributed to Sakaguchi no longer producing the games as well.


Edit: I just noticed you added this bit in:

[quote name='panzerfaust']
Expecting deeper characters is something I disagree with though, because that's entirely up to Square on if they want to change their entire (and very successful) design philosophy. What they work with makes for smooth flowing and fantastical adventures with colorful characters, I ask for no more than that, if I ever did I'd be playing different RPGs -- which I of course do when I'm looking to something more mature.
[/QUOTE]

I didn't say we need deeper characters (or plot for that matter). I just want better characters than what we got from FFXIII. I didn't feel like any of them were anything special or emotionally engaging.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']
I think this is a good example of how different gamers have different perceptions of reward in gaming. You're the man behind the gambits in FFXII, seeing them work smoothly is supposed to the most rewarding part of the combat. The game encourages gambit usage clearly because the micromanagement of the pop up menu is super impractical to use throughout the game. No surprise that nearly everyone I hear complain about the battle system are the ones who distanced themselves from the gambit menu in favor of playing manually -- and boy does that sound horrible. Because manual play is done so much better in a game like FFX, not XII.

The game isn't automated since you yourself do the work, and that's the reward. Fun for some, but others may not be able to see past that wall. And there's no problem with that, I have my fair share of game designs I hate too.[/QUOTE]

I think this is the reason I enjoyed FFXII's combat so much more than XIII's. I definitely understand why a lot of people don't like the loss of control in XII, but I don't mind playing the overseer type role in combat. As you said, the reward was in setting up your gambits and watching you party dole out the punishment. A well-constructed party with good gambits and as others have said, you can put the controller down and let the game play itself. I don't mind that at all, and I find it quite rewarding. I made this comparison earlier but I liken it to DA:O, which had my favorite battle system of any RPG this gen. Obviously that's more strategic, but the core tenets of micromanaging the way your characters behave is still there.

I feel like if FFXIII had gone that route and just asked me to manage paradigms, etc I would have liked it a lot more. I'll add in the necessary caveat that I did not play XIII to completion or close to it, so I haven't seen everything the battle system has to offer. But my main issue was that in addition to asking me to manage paradigms, etc it also gives you direct manual control over one party member, which always felt arbitrary to me. Having to also focus on giving commands to that one character took my mind off having to manage paradigms. Perhaps that's a failure of sufficient skill on my part, but I would have liked it much more if they'd gone one way or the other with it.

To sum up, I love turn-based RPGs where you get to control every character and I also love RPGs where you're basically the regional manager of the team, never getting your own hands dirty. What threw me about FFXIII was how it tried to straddle to the two, and it never really connected with me. Which is a damned shame, because I desperately wanted to love that game.
 
[quote name='ihadFG']I've never played X.

I do agree about the age thing though. I think a lot of people were younger when they first played a JRPG. I think part of the problem is that FF has "grown up" with us on the outside, but on the inside it is still cheesy. And this makes for an awkward experience. Cheesy can be good when the tone of the game matches it (such as Valkyria Chronicles or any Pixar movie), but the problem comes when FFXIII looks likes a grown up and wants to be treated like a grown up, but it still has the brain of a child. And even this could be forgivable if the characters were at least emotionally compelling instead of cringeworthy. I think the story just lacked that certain spark for most people that lets us forgive (or even enjoy) some of these issues in other games. I think part of this could maybe be attributed to Sakaguchi no longer producing the games as well.
[/quote]

0_o

Brain of a child? Yeah, the story is pretty simple and the characters aren't deeper than most other FFs, but people who had problems with the narrative couldn't even comprehend it. And by that logic, every FF is terrible with how it tells its story, since each one takes itself super seriously and engages in corny dialogue to progress its characters and narrative.

Something about the market though tells me "most" people still like FF for some reason. Or perhaps it just keep handing off to new generations since people love those games so much when they are younger. Maybe because they can convey such rich messages without having to recreate a Black Isle game that only older people can manage. I've never taken general forum opinion seriously, let alone smeared it against how the overall gaming population feels about a game.

I assume you acknowledge that Valkyria tells the most basic of stories through the most typical of anime character interactions, and you accept it for what it is. I can respect that much, but that game doesn't take itself seriously? It's cute and charming and that tone matches its content? Content that is specifically stated by the game after the opening battle to be an "epic tale of love, war" etc...? Did you just go "haha, awww" at that line? Really feeling the character development of characters like Alicia and Welkin who giggle at each other for the whole game and expect the player to be touched at the end? Appreciate the complete 180 Rosie takes on her character when she sees a poor person? The pretentious preaching about understanding your enemy after they treat some guy's wound? I guess that is something we'll never meet eyes on.
 
[quote name='bvharris']
To sum up, I love turn-based RPGs where you get to control every character and I also love RPGs where you're basically the regional manager of the team, never getting your own hands dirty. What threw me about FFXIII was how it tried to straddle to the two, and it never really connected with me. Which is a damned shame, because I desperately wanted to love that game.[/QUOTE]

Well you walk into XIII expecting an RPG that allows customization and battle management, and you get a game that's much more relient on reaction times and spur of the moment shifts in battle. The game is bare bones, there's no denying that -- even its combat.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']Well you walk into XIII expecting an RPG that allows customization and battle management, and you get a game that's much more relient on reaction times and spur of the moment shifts in battle. The game is bare bones, there's no denying that -- even its combat.[/QUOTE]

You basically summed up how I feel about it even better than I did. This will now be my stock answer when someone asks why I don't like XIII.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']0_o

Brain of a child? Yeah, the story is pretty simple and the characters aren't deeper than most other FFs, but people who had problems with the narrative couldn't even comprehend it. And by that logic, every FF is terrible with how it tells its story, since each one takes itself super seriously and engages in corny dialogue to progress its characters and narrative.

Something about the market though tells me "most" people still like FF for some reason. Or perhaps it just keep handing off to new generations since people love those games so much when they are younger. I've never taken general forum opinion seriously, let alone smeared it against how the overall gaming population feels about a game.

I assume you acknowledge that Valkyria tells the most basic of stories through the most typical of anime character interactions, and you accept it for what it is. I can respect that much, but that game doesn't take itself seriously? It's cute and charming and that tone matches its content? Content that is specifically stated by the game after the opening battle to be an "epic tale of love, war" etc...? Did you just go "haha, awww" at that line? Really feeling the character development of characters like Alicia and Welkin who giggle at each other for the whole game and expect the player to be touched at the end? Appreciate the complete 180 Rosie takes on her character when she sees a poor person? The pretentious preaching about understanding your enemy after they treat some guy's wound? I guess that is something we'll never meet eyes on.[/QUOTE]

The brain of a child thing was more of a metaphor.

I think for me the tone has a lot more to do with the graphical style, music, and vocal delivery than anything else. Valkyria Chronicles was like a storybook. So no, most of that stuff you mentioned didn't make me roll my eyes. I found it touching for the most part. It was like the whole thing was set in a child's fantasyland where all the characters are innocent and naive. The tone of the game was not super-serious like FFXIII with it's badass protagonist and enemies and music. The style of the game is very important for affecting whether I find the dialogue and story cringe-worthy or not. I'm not saying anyone is wrong though for not being the same as me in that respect. I'm just trying to explain what makes something like FFXIII hard to connect with for me, while I can easily fall in love with something like Valkyria Chronicles.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']You're the man behind the gambits in FFXII, seeing them work smoothly is supposed to the most rewarding part of the combat.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly why I loved XII so much. And why (as bvharris eluded to also) the one thing I would change about XIII's battle system is make it so you don't have to manually select Auto-Battle every turn. 99% of the time, Auto-Battle is what you want to do anyway, so it just felt like babysitting and a step backwards from XII to have to press A every turn.

As for XIII's story... You make a good case panzerfaust, and I understand where you are coming from, but for me the contradictory and/or nonexistent motivations for pretty much all of the antagonists really hurt the storytelling. That and the high number of cheesy and flat lines, which like you said is par for the course for most JRPGs, but coming after XII which had probably the sharpest JRPG script ever, coupled with universally stellar voice performances, it was still disappointing.

I also thought the world-building was handled poorly, as in, there is this whole awesome Fabula Nova Crystallis mythology that you can go read about on the Final Fantasy Wiki and such, which is actually very intriguing, but very little of that came through in the actual game, past the codex entries. I also had a poor sense of the way locations related to one another-- now you are on a highway suspended in the middle of a void, now you are on a frozen lake, now you are in a canyon filled with broken machines, now you are in a forest, now you are in an amusement park, etc. etc. How did I get from one place to the next, why am I here, and what is the story behind these places? It may seem minor but one thing that really pulls me out of an RPG is the sense that the world has no physical reality, no history, no connectedness. Hopefully this whole paragraph made some kind of sense to someone other than me. :p
 
[quote name='Ryuukishi']
I also thought the world-building was handled poorly, as in, there is this whole awesome Fabula Nova Crystallis mythology that you can go read about on the Final Fantasy Wiki and such, which is actually very intriguing, but very little of that came through in the actual game, past the codex entries. I also had a poor sense of the way locations related to one another-- now you are on a highway suspended in the middle of a void, now you are on a frozen lake, now you are in a canyon filled with broken machines, now you are in a forest, now you are in an amusement park, etc. etc. How did I get from one place to the next, why am I here, and what is the story behind these places? It may seem minor but one thing that really pulls me out of an RPG is the sense that the world has no physical reality, no history, no connectedness. Hopefully this whole paragraph made some kind of sense to someone other than me. :p[/QUOTE]

I think you perfectly summed up one of my major gripes with the game.
 
Even silly stuff like when you are warped to the Fifth Ark, I wanted to know, where is the Fifth Ark? You're told that it's hidden, but... is it buried underground? Is it suspended in the middle of the sphere? Is it in another dimension like Orphan's Cradle? That's the kind of thing that helps you buy the game world, just having a physical sense of where you are, and the game didn't even try.

Also, the Hanging Edge. I swear, maybe I am the dumbest person ever but to this day I have no idea what the Hanging Edge is supposed to be, and it's the first level. There are roads and walkways running every which way, suspended in the air. Faaar below you is Lake Bresha, because you fall there, but you can't see it. Around you are what seem to be futuristic floating buildings (?). Above you is... what? Green lights against a dark background.

site_final-fantasy-xiii-ss-169.jpg


Is it the sky? Is it a cavern roof because you're underground? Outside or underground, seems like a pretty simple question for a level designer to answer, but I honestly have no idea.
 
Square-Enix really just wants to make movies. :D

Obviously they subscribe to the George Lucas philosophy of "cram as many cool looking things as possible into every frame and hope that nobody notices that none of it makes any sense."

[quote name='Chacrana']I mean... at least the environments are pretty and unique. Not... Dragon Age.[/QUOTE]

Hey, Dragon Age's environments are unique! There's.. city, and.. tunnel, and.. forest! I think most people who loved Dragon Age ended up forgiving it most of its design flaws since it was so much more fun to play than to look at.
 
I really don't like the way terms like "character development" are thrown around so much in RPG land.

Most people who play JRPGs (and even Western RPGs) tend to equate "character development" as a character having some sort of problem that eventually gets solved while giving background to their character. People forget that character is not just what they have done, but what they do and how they do it.

A lot of people give the DQ series flak for not having character development, but that's because they don't have histories that boil down to one event that defines their entire life.

The other thing to note is that Japanese storytelling is VERY different from Western storytelling. They're not fans of realistic characters, but of stereotypes. This is true in almost all media, from movies to TV shows to novels, the reason being that they prefer fantasy worlds to realistic ones.

This isn't an excuse to open someone's eyes and say "Oh! I get it now! Different storytelling, now I can appreciate it!" but rather just to acknowledge that cultural differences do matter, now that games have improved storytelling ability compared to the SNES era.
 
Western Storytelling = Brown+Gray = REALISM
Japanese Storytelling = Drugs+Colors = IMAGINATION

The thing that's a big difference in storytelling nowadays between the 2 cultures is that western devs go for in-game stuff while japanese devs go for cutscenes.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Western Storytelling = Brown+Gray = REALISM
Japanese Storytelling = Drugs+Colors = IMAGINATION

The thing that's a big difference in storytelling nowadays between the 2 cultures is that western devs go for in-game stuff while japanese devs go for cutscenes.[/QUOTE]
I guess you just decided to ignore other media like novels / movies / television shows that I just mentioned.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Western GAMES= Brown+Gray = REALISM
Japanese GAMES= Drugs+Colors = IMAGINATION[/QUOTE]

This is why I hate so much of this console generation. The fall of Japanese developers and the rise of Western-based ideas (even in Japanese developed games) has just made the entire generation shades of brown and gray. :puke:

I'll admit Modern Warfare can be fun, but I blame that series for nearly ruining the current console experience. Hell, I found Tales of Legendia almost enjoyable, simply because it had a color pallet! And I LOVED Dragon Age and Mass Effect 1 and 2 (Honestly some of my faves this gen despite being Western developed), but DA was just fugly and Mass Effect is getting dangerously close to shooter territory.
 
Yeah they really didn't give you the opportunity to learn about the areas you were in. Given the narrative I guess it makes sense since you're not in a position to strike up a conversation with a civilian, let alone with all the shit going on around you -- but it is a shame since artistically FFXIII's world is stunning, and the bits and pieces from the codex are really interesting.

I think The Hanging Edge was the exposed portion of Cocoon that was a result of the first appearance of Ragnarok. I think I read that in the codex, can't remember.

And XIII-2 looks like it'll be in another dimension, so not much hope to revisit and learn about the world :lol:
 
I dropped Dragon Age 2 in favor of Nier.

I'm only a few hours in but the story is intresting. It's funny because my daughter's name is Yuna and the MC's daughter is named Yonah which sound very similar. When I first popped the game in it caught my wife off guard.
 
[quote name='Rodimus']my daughter's name is Yuna[/QUOTE]
Yuna like from Final Fantasy X? If so, my hat is off to you sir. :lol: My wife has expressly forbidden me from naming our kids after Final Fantasy characters. I almost snuck one in by suggesting Penelope, but she found out about Penelo from XII.
 
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