The WWE Is Entertainment Not Wrestling Thread

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[quote name='metaphysicalstyles']Hell... they could even pair Truth w/ Booker T, with Booker playing the role of mentor/manager.[/QUOTE]

I like this idea quite a bit, actually. But, fuck Samoa Joe. Guy is awful in the ring, and his promos are boring as shit. He won't sell tickets in WWE because he's got absolutely zero charisma, he's a watered down rip off of Taz's original gimmick in ECW and he can't sell it for shit.
 
[quote name='xilly']I like this idea quite a bit, actually. But, fuck Samoa Joe. Guy is awful in the ring, and his promos are boring as shit. He won't sell tickets in WWE because he's got absolutely zero charisma, he's a watered down rip off of Taz's original gimmick in ECW and he can't sell it for shit.[/QUOTE]

Except it's believable because he's heavy and not four feet tall.
 
Swagger was fine as world champ last year, but they hurt him a lot with his glorified jobber role after that, so while he is quite over now, they would need to keep booking him well for more than just a month or two for him to click as a main eventer.
 
[quote name='davo1224']Except it's believable because he's heavy and not four feet tall.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but at least Taz could cut a promo. All Joe does is gasp for air and curse. Woo. I'm terrified. Oh, and uh, at least Taz had some biceps. Taz was built like a brick shithouse, Joe is built like a stock boy at Walmart.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Swagger was a shit champ. I constantly forget he even wore the belt at all.[/QUOTE]

This is partly due to them changing his gimmick from a goofy heel to a serious Jericho-type.
 
[quote name='xilly']I like this idea quite a bit, actually. But, fuck Samoa Joe. Guy is awful in the ring, and his promos are boring as shit. He won't sell tickets in WWE because he's got absolutely zero charisma, he's a watered down rip off of Taz's original gimmick in ECW and he can't sell it for shit.[/QUOTE]
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[quote name='xilly']Yeah, but at least Taz could cut a promo. All Joe does is gasp for air and curse. Woo. I'm terrified. Oh, and uh, at least Taz had some biceps. Taz was built like a brick shithouse, Joe is built like a stock boy at Walmart.[/QUOTE]

Alfonso used to cut Taz's promos remember?

Taz may have been muscular during his prime (compared to the orange version of Violet from Willy Wonka that he is now) but again, his height made his offense lack credibility when Heyman wasn't booking people to get trashed. Joe is large so his offense atleast makes sense if you book him that way. As just another wrestler, he looks like an out of shape jobber from the early 90's.

I'm apathetic to Joe but think Taz is one of the worst ever. There's nothing special about him as a wrestler and if it weren't for the Vince and Heyman relationship, he would have rotted on the indy scene or been exposed immediately in late WCW, instead of after a few months in WWF's most recent prime.
 
I was a fan of Taz. I kinda the intensity in his promos. Just hearing him talk in the ECW days made me think he could beat the shit outta anybody. I was actually glad when he turned face-ish and was on his own and he was cutting his own promos. I was also a huge fan of ROH/Early TNA tenure Joe. Monster Joe was the fucking man. Last time I turned TNA on, Joe was doing that whole Nation of Violence thing with the face paint and machete thing, and I just couldn't get into it. Monster Joe destroying people was so much better.
 
Joe is one of those guys that lives and dies based on how he's presented. The monster Joe, for me, was really the last time he even remotely worked, and that was a loooooong time ago now.

Problem one? That fucking name. Destroying people worked well enough that he moved past that, but still. Samoa Joe. That's basically a name one of the AKI guys from WCW/nWo Revenge would have.

Problem two? His entire look. Can he kick people's ass? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that's he's a fat guy with a babyface wearing two-tone bicycle shorts.

He's talented, sure, but it's a fine line to keep him in a place where he 'works'. It's why I've never understood the calls to send him to WWE... no way they'd get him right. No way.
 
matthardybrand : Heard Adam is retiring because of physical issues that won't allow him to safely continue wrestling. He'll be missed, we've certainly had our fair share of issues.. Both good and bad. But I tip my hat to Edge who is one of the greatest I've ever been in the ring with.

Adam resides in NC now-sure I'll run into him down the road. Glad that him & I are in a good place. We came in as friends, & went out that way.
Click to expand...

After the way Matt has been regarding Lita, I was expecting something a bit more...childish from Matt. Glad to be wrong.
 
[quote name='007']Joe is one of those guys that lives and dies based on how he's presented. The monster Joe, for me, was really the last time he even remotely worked, and that was a loooooong time ago now.

Problem one? That fucking name. Destroying people worked well enough that he moved past that, but still. Samoa Joe. That's basically a name one of the AKI guys from WCW/nWo Revenge would have.

Problem two? His entire look. Can he kick people's ass? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that's he's a fat guy with a babyface wearing two-tone bicycle shorts.

He's talented, sure, but it's a fine line to keep him in a place where he 'works'. It's why I've never understood the calls to send him to WWE... no way they'd get him right. No way.[/QUOTE]

I can agree with that for sure. I think that's probably my biggest problem with Joe as well, as I think he's fine if he doesn't talk and just walks in and stomps people and bounces. For Joe to work in WWE, he'd need to simply come in, march down the ramp, maul anyone who's near and roll out without a word.

They tried that with Vladimir Koslov, and you saw how that worked. They fucked it up by putting his broken ass on the mic and ruined his monster vibe. Same thing TNA did to Abyss when he started talking. If you want someone to be dominate shut them the fuck up and just let them kick ass, which imo is why Lashley worked so well at first.
 
[quote name='Mr. Beef']After the way Matt has been regarding Lita, I was expecting something a bit more...childish from Matt. Glad to be wrong.[/QUOTE]

Bros before hoes...


On another note, the tweets from Hogan really have me thinking about how going out on top is the best way to uphold your legacy. Hogan clearly is the best example of this. Stone Cold, Shawn Michaels, and now Edge will all have a strong legacy because they went out on top. Hell even the Rock before his planned return was left with a pretty damn strong legacy. Granted some of them didn't have much of a choice but seeing Hogan continually clinging to any little shred of publicity (Hogan Knows Blech) is really sad and at least for me, really just makes him look a little bit pathetic. These twitter comments just scream "look at me, look at me, I'm relevant, I'm one of the good ol' boys, don't forget about me."
 
[quote name='007']It's why I've never understood the calls to send him to WWE... no way they'd get him right. No way.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, but TNA sure done fucked up using him over the past years.
 
Looking back, I find it amazing that Edge has managed to last this long considering he joined Team Spinal Fusion way back in 2003. I guess it was a matter of time before that caught up with him.

At least we walked away before he had to be carted away.
 
Depressed about Edge he has the same condition as my mom has although she didn't have spinal fusion.
Hope they keep him doing GM stuff or something around WWE.
 
^^^That is the Taz that I choose to remember.Dude was straight up intense and real, during his ECW reign i didn't think there was anybody in wrestling better then him. ECW Taz is one of my all time favorites.
 
Discuss: to what extent did the wrestling style of the late 90's and today contribute to Edge's retirement? Should pro wrestling try to move towards a simpler, more conservative style?

EDIT: Those Taz promos are great. It's hard to imagine he's the same dude who uses the word "yambags" on a weekly basis on TNA. His intensity in ECW was palpable. He was then criminally misused in WWE, as he couldn't be taken seriously at all when he stepped away from such excellent catchphrases like he used in ECW. It's easy to believe he's a miserable, grouchy, intense New Yawk bastard. Compare his intensity to Randy Orton, whose promos simply don't impress me at all.
 
I think we already have. No more piledrivers,powerbombs, and unprotected chair shots. Plus Edge has been in a ridiculous amount of high risk matches, even after his spinal fusion. WWE has kept it pretty safe otherwise I'd say.

TNA on the other hand seems to live for stupid spots still (see: Hernandez' Border Tossing anyone, Homicide's chair shot to Rob Terry, Angle taking ridiculous falls in ladder matches on free TV etc)

Mason Ryan's powerbomb to Orton was the first regular style one since they had Sheamus do it to Jamie Noble in the forced retirement angle.
 
[quote name='Halo05']Regarding Taz not cutting promos...

Dude was intimidating as hell. I liked Joe too but Taz seemed legitimately unhinged and was one of the guys that made ECW seem more real than WCW/WWF at the time.[/QUOTE]

Yep, I know. That's why (I always felt like) Joe even as a monster was a cheap imitation of him, but wasn't half as convincing.

I'll never forget Taz destroying Louie Spicolli on ECW TV and then the next week finding out that he died. :(
 
I'll never forget Tommy Dreamer breaking Spicolli's fingers because Louie kept doing the Wolfpack sign.

In the past several years, I've come to respect WCW more than I did back in the late 90s, but back then, I think I hated them because ECW told me to. It was still real to me dammit.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Discuss: to what extent did the wrestling style of the late 90's and today contribute to Edge's retirement? Should pro wrestling try to move towards a simpler, more conservative style?[/QUOTE]

I had a long rant here, but it got a little disjointed. Suffice it to say that I truly believe the Monday Night Wars, along with attempts by both WCW and WWF to try to appease those waterheads that chant "E-C-DUB" laid down the path that led to this. I don't know if a return to the conservative style is the answer, though... we always talk about the horrible wrestling tragedies from the last decade and a half, but the period before that had as many. It was just a different set of circumstances; coke, painkillers, steroids, suicides, Canadian black market cigarette trade... you get the idea. Of course, the demographics will probably skew younger in the current generation of wrestling tragedies, so maybe. I didn't look at a list of dead wrestlers, IDK.
 
[quote name='Brak']'90s WCW was the shit.[/QUOTE]

WCW was a huge mix of good and bad. Lots and lots and lots of bad, but some awesome matches as well.

Herb Abrams' death was pretty incredible - cocaine-induced heart attack while nude, covered in baby oil and cocaine, surrounded by hookers and destroying shit with a baseball bat. That's at least a memorable way to go out.
 
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So I finally watched Raw. Edge announcing his retirement really sucks because he has always been one of my favorites since his wandering around the streets of NYC wearing a trench coat that too small days. I got out of wrestling shortly after the invasion, and only got back in when Cryme Tyme was starting up a few years back (my friend told me to watch because the promos were ridiculously awesome). Anyway, most of the wrestlers I remembered were gone. Jericho was on haitus. Rock was gone. Stone Cold was gone. I think Trips was injured. RVD was gone, I think. It was Edge who was still there so I just latched right back onto him.

Fast forward to a little while ago, watching his speech, it felt really sad. I don't even see how it could have been thought as a work. It was so real and unscripted. Edge has been one of the more vocal guys about how he loves the business, and I don't see why he would try an angle like this that would seriously alienate a lot of the fans. Especially since he is one of the fans. He constantly brings up these wrestling moments from when he was little and always exuded that feeling of he's just a normal guy living the dream. Literally. I mean, how many times during heel Edge runs did he break character to show love and appreciation to whoever for what they did? To see some guys do that for him (Barrett stuck out like a sore thumb in his Corre shirt) was really a great show of respect.

Anyway, I really do wish Edge sticks around in some capacity. Or at least just to stay in Christian's corner during the eventual Cap'in Charisma vs Del Rio match. As a side note, I might be the only person that thinks Edge leaving might open the door for Christian. Someone mentioned before that WWE was willing to let Del Rio have some spotlight because he was working with a proven fan-favorite veteran. I'm pretty sure Christian follows that mold. Besides, I'm sure they'd rather let him have the ball and run with it then try to push Kofi into the main event picture.
 
I think Edge in the right hands could have been an amazing character. I mean the Rated-R Superstar in the hands of someone like a Paul Heyman could have been amazing. Motorcycle helmet Edge is still his best iteration. However it felt like the booking meandered his entire character with lackluster feuds (Jericho/Edge), terrible feuds (Kane/Edge), and meaningless face turns (both times).

In the end, Edge could have been much, much more than he was.
 
I think Edge did more than alright. He started out by temporarily paralyzing a member of Los Boricuas and ended with a WM world title match win.

Considering that he got injured almost every year, I'm surprised he made it this far too.
 
Smackdown Spoilers:

Alberto Del Rio comes out and says tonight is about Edge. Del Rio says it is his destiny to win the World Heavyweight Championship but not this week. He says Edge should come out and present him with the belt. Teddy Long comes out and says it won't be going down like that. Long informs Del Rio he'll still fight in a Ladder Match at Extreme Rules for the belt but a new number one contender will be determined in a 20-man over-the-top battle royal.

Ezekiel Jackson defeated Kofi Kingston w/The Corre on commentary. After the match, Jackson gets on the mic and says he is the personification of domination and after the battle royal he will be the number one contender and everyone will know including The Corre.

Lay-Cool couples therapy. They bicker and Michelle McCool walks out.

Cody Rhodes has an in-ring promo, saying that he wanted to disfigure Rey Mysterio the way that Cody has disfigured him. Mysterio comes out and they fight. Rey nails the 619 and Cody leave.

They air the promo for the former Awesome Kong.

Rey Mysterio defeated Drew McIntyre after hitting the 619.

Backstage, Edge is getting an ovation from the Smackdown locker room. Edge and Kane shake hands.

Edge comes out and gives a recap of his career. He says he is going to miss all of it. "Thank you" chants fill the arena. Edge says he wants to do his intro one more time. He's pumped now and talking about how great the WWE doctors are and says he's taking his girl and going surfing. Edge is happy he got to say goodbye in Albany because it's the place where he won his first championship. In fact it was in a cab in Albany where Edge came up with the nickname Edge. He introduces his mother who is sitting in the front row and thanks her for all her support. To him his title has meant everything to him but the belt is not his. Edge says every fan holds a piece of it as he relinquishes the belt. Edge says it's been a heck of a ride concluding another emotional shoot of a speech.

Backstage, Alberto Del Rio interrupts Edge. Del Rio extends his hand but Edge stares him down. Del Rio smiles as Edge walks away.

Kelly Kelly vs. Layla. Layla tries to do their entrance but Michelle McCool goes straight to the ring. Kelly wins via roll-up. McCool comes in the ring and shoves Layla across the ring and leaves.

They air a video package of WWE superstars commenting on The Undertaker vs. Triple H from Wrestlemania.

In the Battle Royal: Big Show, Kane, The Corre, Heath Slater, Jack Swagger, Brodus Clay, Christian, Cody Rhodes, Drew McIntyre, Yoshi Tatsu, Kofi Kingston, Rey Mysterio, Tyler Reks, Chris Masters, Chavo Guerrero, Curt Hawkins, Trent Baretta and JTG.

The final four are Christian, Rey, Swagger and Justin Gabriel. Rey eliminated Gabriel. Swagger eliminated Rey.

Christian won the battle royal to face Alberto Del Rio for the World title at Extreme Rules. Michael Cole interfered in the match and took a 619 to the back from Mysterio.Post-match Edge came tot he ring and did a five second pose with Christian.

 
One of my favorite wrestling memories of the past decade is when Edge won the tag titles with Hogan. You could tell how much it meant to Edge just by the smile on his face.
 
[quote name='pitfallharry219']One of my favorite wrestling memories of the past decade is when Edge won the tag titles with Hogan. You could tell how much it meant to Edge just by the smile on his face.[/QUOTE]

I really hope Edge never sees or hears about that tweet. It could really tarnish that memory for him.
 
[quote name='Purple Flames']I really hope Edge never sees or hears about that tweet. It could really tarnish that memory for him.[/QUOTE]

That "Wrestlers work hurt" comment is part of what's been wrong with the industry forever. Unless you're Hogan with the guaranteed contract, wrestlers work hurt because no worky no money. And then you get people like Bret Hart, who worked for weeks on the concussion that ended his career. Or you end up with a Dynamite Kid. A Mick Foley, who can't stand or walk straight.

I'm an admitted fan of (chickenshit heel) Edge, and I know I'm in the minority, but frankly, I'm glad to see him get out before he permanently fucks things up for himself.
 
[quote name='Iron Clad Burrito']
I'm an admitted fan of (chickenshit heel) Edge, and I know I'm in the minority, but frankly, I'm glad to see him get out before he permanently fucks things up for himself.[/QUOTE]

Regardless of how we feel about him as a performer, I'm pretty sure we all agree on that. No one wants to see Edge fucked up for life.
 
[quote name='OnyxPrimal']Regardless of how we feel about him as a performer, I'm pretty sure we all agree on that. No one wants to see Edge fucked up for life.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying any of us are the most mature people on the planet, but I'd like to think we're all a little higher class than that.
 
Slightly different conversation, but I'd settle for not having to see another Ric Flair.

Edge mentioning WM24 really got me thinking about the event, since I actually had forgotten that Taker/Edge closed that one out. Edge wrestled 3 more years, has to retire do to injury, and (by all accounts) is financially set for life. He went out on top and can live comfortably never having to step into a ring again.

Flair RETIRED at that event, and three years later is still wrestling. Not only wrestling, but cutting himself open on a nearly weekly basis. Flair can claim it's because he loves the business, or that it's in his blood, but we all know it's because Flair is straight-up broke. Not even just straight-up broke, but also owes a shit-ton of money to people.

That, to me, really underlined how the business has changed. At the very least, how the people in the business have changed.









... on that note, I think it was myke that posted it, but I would definitely say that the 90s style of wrestling contributed quite a bit to the amount of major injuries that guys have had. In an era where it was all about upping the ante and going as over-the-top as possible, it's inevitable. Injuries aside, I'd assert it also led to the bigger problem, which is painkiller abuse. Wrestling hurts normally, so imagine what late 90s guys were dealing with on a weekly basis. While I dislike the 'safe' stlye of today, it's simply because WWE still makes it 'WWE' style. There's a way to make safe wrestling entertaining, but to be safe AND make it fit a standard WWE mold is a tougher prospect. So, while I'll cite those TLC matches and some of the best things WWE has done in the past 15 years, I can't deny that without his participation in those Edge may have gone another 5 years. It's a double-edged sword, really... most of us would kill to go back to the late 90s style of wrestling, but is it worth the toll on the partcipants? Given that most of the comments in this thread fall into the 'Well, I didn't really like Edge, but I'm glad that he won't be completely crippled for life', I'd say no.
 
Edge has always been one of my favorites, so I'm sad to see him go but I'm glad he's getting to leave while still reasonably healthy. Let's hope he doesn't get coaxed into showing up somewhere else.

On the other side, I'm really hoping that they give Christian that main event push he deserves. The guy has paid his dues and has shown that he can be a credible champion.
 
[quote name='OnyxPrimal']Regardless of how we feel about him as a performer, I'm pretty sure we all agree on that. No one wants to see Edge fucked up for life.[/QUOTE]

I phrased it poorly. I meant I was in the minority for liking Edge as a performer; I wasn't casting aspersions on the lot of you. Besides, everyone's pretty much of the same mind here (except for Hogan) that it's probably the perfect time for Edge to get out.
 
[quote name='007']While I dislike the 'safe' stlye of today, it's simply because WWE still makes it 'WWE' style. There's a way to make safe wrestling entertaining, but to be safe AND make it fit a standard WWE mold is a tougher prospect.[/QUOTE]

Look at the way Lawler wrestles these days. Not everyone should be able to do that, but there's merit to your point. I don't think we can ever return to the days where Atomic Drops would be bought by a crowd - however I think punch-punch-punch-ropes-SPOT/punch-punch-punch-CLOTHESLINE/headlock is way overdone. I sometimes think WWE is trying to convince me that professional wrestling sucks.

I'm tellin y'all, Koko B Ware vs Rick Martel to open WMVI was an *awesome* and underrated match that involves very few moments that would be considered high-risk by today's standards. Heck, go back and watch that 1-2-3 Kid vs Owen Hart match from KOTR (1993?) Kane posted last week.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn5Q8VawimA

It's not the greatest match of all time, but it's very athletic, very competitive, and doesn't involve anyone putting up with high-risk nonsense.

Also, I have to recognize that I vastly prefer the pacing of wrestling matches from 15-20 years ago. I don't care for the hyper speed they're put into now, there's too little time to digest the nuances of a match or invest in a character being hurt, etc. Go back and watch some Razor Ramon, or Kevin Nash. Neither great *wrestlers*, neither fast by any stretch, but their matches were enjoyable to watch nonetheless.

Turbo speed: good for Super Street Fighter II, bad for pro wrestling.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']It's not the greatest match of all time, but it's very athletic, very competitive, and doesn't involve anyone putting up with high-risk nonsense.[/QUOTE]

That's what I miss the most. Athleticism. I was watching wrestling all the way up until 2007. After that I couldn't get in to it as much anymore. Back before TNA was signing any old school legend they could get and just handing them the belt, I loved watching them. In '05 AJ Styles was on fire and the X-Division kept me glued to my TV. Hell, even the ECW reunion shows WWE were putting on was great!

I'll always love wrestling and go back and watch the old matches. I just wish they could go back to more high risk manuvers. But I'm glad it's safer now. That way, people like Edge won't push himself until he ends up in a wheelchair.
 
Watched this week's episode of Tough Enough last night... and I've completely lost interest. It's alomost more than obvious that skanky ol' Miss USA will be in the final few... and Skidmarks will be kept around to fuel the feud with DeMott. This is typical reality tv storytelling... and not at all a realistic competition.

If I were to produce a WWE Tough Enough-esque program, I would cast legit indy performers with some name recognition. Not beauty pageant winners, sisters of stars, people from New Jersey. It's an absolute crime that Austin Aries was snubbed. If he had he been on the show with eleven other recognizable indy wrestlers, I would be a loyal viewer.
 
I still don't know how Hogan is even alive at this point. I honestly thought he'd have died years ago. And Flair....that's just sad. He did some state lottery commercial here last year, and he sounded like he could barely pronounce words, like he'd had a stroke or something.
 
[quote name='metaphysicalstyles']Watched this week's episode of Tough Enough last night... and I've completely lost interest. It's alomost more than obvious that skanky ol' Miss USA will be in the final few... and Skidmarks will be kept around to fuel the feud with DeMott. This is typical reality tv storytelling... and not at all a realistic competition.

If I were to produce a WWE Tough Enough-esque program, I would cast legit indy performers with some name recognition. Not beauty pageant winners, sisters of stars, people from New Jersey. It's an absolute crime that Austin Aries was snubbed. If he had he been on the show with eleven other recognizable indy wrestlers, I would be a loyal viewer.[/QUOTE]

I really like the set up of the show, but I agree that Ryan has no place there. I was shocked to see Matt go home, but I can sorta understand why. If Ryan isn't gone next week, I'm done watching it.
 
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