Mass Effect 2 Discussion - Fight for the Lost

[quote name='RichMeisterMan']Is it just my game or does Garrus not talk?! The first time through I didn't have a lot of conversations with him. Maybe 2 or 3, and after that I just kept getting denied. This new game I started though he hasn't said jack shit. I'm even worried he might not even mention his loyalty mission or something.

The only conversation I had with him was one right after recruiting him. I have one person left to recruit in the 2nd set of dossiers and he hasn't said shit to me. Wtf?[/QUOTE]
He doesn't talk as much as the rest of the crew, but the dialog he does bring to the game is nothing short of solid gold. I'm not sure if he's less talkative because:

A) He's more of the strong-willed/silent type now.
B) The devs felt like you already knew so much about him, so there wasn't much to add.
C) His face hurts too much to talk.
D) All of the above.
 
[quote name='timesplitt']it is kind of sarcastic BUT with a serious tone, i mean i can only take so many posts about people opinions on the ending. this has been going on for like 8 pages. we get it you had people die, we get it you did this strategy. we dont need to hear that u(them) used legion when 30 people before you have already said THEY did[/QUOTE]
And? You don't like the topic of discussion then throw your own out there and if people want to they'll discuss it.
 
Hah, I think I'm one of the first people to be vocally banned from the MEGA64 podcast chat, because I said Derrick was an idiot for thinking every mission in ME2 is the same...

Every mission is the same? I would say this game in particular has the most diverse missions. And he loves Fallout 3. Uh...
 
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[quote name='DarkNessBear']Lol! I just got kicked from the MEGA64 for calling Derrick a "fucking idiot' for thinking every mission in Mass Effect 2 is the same. Haha. Derrick yelled at me on the air... hah.

Every mission is the same? I would say this game in particular has the most diverse missions. And he loves Fallout 3. Uh...[/QUOTE]

I don't know what a "MEGA64" is, but you did the right thing.

also, has anyone else been bored to tears by the Vanguard class? I breezed through 3/4 of the game and I'm about ready to just quit and start over. Hopefully not every Biotic class makes the game so easy.
 
[quote name='mogshaz']I don't know what a "MEGA64" is, but you did the right thing.

also, has anyone else been bored to tears by the Vanguard class? I breezed through 3/4 of the game and I'm about ready to just quit and start over. Hopefully not every Biotic class makes the game so easy.[/QUOTE]Are you playing on Insanity?
 
[quote name='mogshaz']I don't know what a "MEGA64" is, but you did the right thing.

also, has anyone else been bored to tears by the Vanguard class? I breezed through 3/4 of the game and I'm about ready to just quit and start over. Hopefully not every Biotic class makes the game so easy.[/QUOTE]

Thats the one class that looked cool but havent really wanted to try. I played the soldier class first and now on insane im playin the infiltrator class and wish i chose a different one. So far I still just like the soldier one, I only have 3 achievements left and am thinkin bout maybe playing 1/4 of another playthrough
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']Hah, I think I'm one of the first people to be vocally banned from the MEGA64 podcast chat, because I said Derrick was an idiot for thinking every mission in ME2 is the same...

Every mission is the same? I would say this game in particular has the most diverse missions. And he loves Fallout 3. Uh...[/QUOTE]

i love the game, but i do agree with his point that the missions are all land, hide, shoot, hide, shoot, progress and repeat. he hasn't no attachment to the characters or plot that is why he is getting bored of it (didn't even play the first one.)
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']Are you playing on Insanity?[/QUOTE]

yeah, I even went into the options to check that the game didn't default to a lower setting at some point when i got to Horizon.
 
[quote name='James1221']i love the game, but i do agree with his point that the missions are all land, hide, shoot, hide, shoot, progress and repeat. he hasn't no attachment to the characters or plot that is why he is getting bored of it (didn't even play the first one.)[/QUOTE]Just like all you did was land, hide, shoot, hide again, and shoot some more all the way through Thane's loyalty mission. And Samara's. And Grunt's. And Tali's.

...just to name a few.
 
[quote name='James1221']i love the game, but i do agree with his point that the missions are all land, hide, shoot, hide, shoot, progress and repeat. he hasn't no attachment to the characters or plot that is why he is getting bored of it (didn't even play the first one.)[/QUOTE]
Yea, maybe some of the side quests... but, he is still pretty early so that's probably all he knows. And it must not be as great if you did not play ME1. Oh well and I don't get why Rocco is not playing it.

Well, now it sucks. I can't view the chat because of that... is there a way to get past Ustream banns? I just want to read the damn chat.
 
I'm starting to think that paragon/renegade requirements are increased in insanity. That, or the requirements to charm/intimidate increase with each mission you complete.

I just finished up Jack's loyalty mission and was around 90% full on paragon. Jack and Miranda have their argument, and I wasn't able to charm them. I sided with Jack, redistributed my talents to Agent instead of Assassin (+100% paragon as opposed to +70%), and charmed Miranda back.

This is the second time I've run into something like this. As I said before, I had next to no paragon when I charmed Zaeed in my normal playthrough, but I was almost full this time and couldn't charm him. I can't remember exactly where I was at with the Jack and Miranda conflict on my normal playthrough, but I want to say it was around 80%.

I'm maxed out paragon now since taking the Agent unique talent, so hopefully I'm able to charm Legion and Tali out of their argument. I don't see why I wouldn't be able to, but hell, I was surprised when I couldn't bail out of the Miranda and Jack argument initially.
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']Just like all you did was land, hide, shoot, hide again, and shoot some more all the way through Thane's loyalty mission. And Samara's. And Grunt's. And Tali's.

...just to name a few.[/QUOTE]

you don't need to try and convince me, i already love the game. i was on of the nerds that picked it up at midnight release and had it preordered the day it was announced. Anyone else have a "uber dork" as triumph calls them show up at the midnight release and say something so dumb that it made you want to cover your face and wince?
 
[quote name='yukafls']Thats the one class that looked cool but havent really wanted to try. I played the soldier class first and now on insane im playin the infiltrator class and wish i chose a different one. So far I still just like the soldier one, I only have 3 achievements left and am thinkin bout maybe playing 1/4 of another playthrough[/QUOTE]

My first insanity playthrough was with the infiltrator (which I enjoyed). The Problem I have with the Vanguard is the class only starts with 2 weaknesses.

1) Limited ammo (the shotgun can only hold 15 rounds at first)

2) Limited range

the Limited ammo is manageable if you switch around your weapons and isn't a problem at all after you get a few weapon upgrades, and the limited range can be dealt with by putting some Team points into shockwave, and pull. This is before you get the the submachine gun, and can just use short bursts which are fairly accurate over a good distance. I can't even count the amount of times I have done something stupid as a Vanguard that should have gotten me killed but with an excess of shielding/Barrier or a combination of Biotics I was instead rewarded for it.
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']I can see where you're coming from with that. I had a major facepalm moment the first time I followed Ashley's conversation line in ME1 and she starts talking about the afterlife and how her grandfather and father were watching.

-----------------------------------------------

Side note:
While starting my Insanity run today, I noticed that there is a way to quick-reload your gun. As soon as I hit the X button to reload, I hit the LB (which is Geth Shield Boost for me) and not only does my shield activate, but my gun is instantly reloaded. Granted, this may not be something you can do per every reload with every class (I'm a Soldier on this playthrough, so having a constant need for powers doesn't affect me). I'm not sure if this process is due to Geth Shield Boost being a Tech power or not, but it works and it has been very beneficial so far.[/QUOTE]

It also speeds up reloading if you push B for a melee attack while you're in the middle of reloading. As soon as the melee animation is complete the gun is reloaded.
 
Man, this game is so damn weird. There are so many people that down right hate it and so many that just love it. There are people that complained that Mass Effect 1 needed to be more of a shooter and then complain that Mass Effect 2 needs to be more RPG. The game is so different that most people can't grasp the essential concept. When I play it, I cannot possibly see how you could not like it. But there are people that do...

...And then they say, "It is way overrated there are so many problems with it. Like, mining is boring and there is not enough gun customizability". But that is all I hear... what are these glaring problems that I am not seeing? I mean, you put this next to Gears of War a game that has very few people that dislike it and that reviews were all perfect and it just totally rapes it on all levels. The only thing I can think is that people are comparing it to open world RPGs like Fallout and Oblivion (which does not make any sense) and they have more open ended environments... yet I'd say more limiting options for story.

So what is it exactly? And I 100% know (and from first hand experience) that there are vocal people that hate everything. But, this seems to be more common than most games I see... like it is "cool" to dislike it. It almost seems like EA did such a weird ass advertising job that they brought in all the douchebags that were playing Madden and MW2 and now they are bitching because ya can't chain saw a locust.

I've had a lot of free time recently...

One last thing... what is with the insane amount of ADD in gamers? They complain about everything that is not instant; elevator rides, space exploration, mining and load times. Are most gamers snorting coke and shaking their leg while they play?
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']ALSO!
What the hell happened to Kahlee, Hendel and Gillian? The Migrant Fleet never mentioned anything about them. And they were getting ready to take back their home planet... wouldn't they mention, "But we do have some of our fleet investigating unkown space for habitable worlds." I was really bummed there was not really any mention to Ascension - and I was hoping to run into Grayson.
[/QUOTE]

I believe the ship you go rescue the Quarian from on that sidequest with all the varren is the one from the second book, but nothing is said about the fate of Kahlee, Hendel, and Gillian.
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']Man, this game is so damn weird. There are so many people that down right hate it and so many that just love it. There are people that complained that Mass Effect 1 needed to be more of a shooter and then complain that Mass Effect 2 needs to be more RPG. The game is so different that most people can't grasp the essential concept. When I play it, I cannot possibly see how you could not like it. But there are people that do...

...And then they say, "It is way overrated there are so many problems with it. Like, mining is boring and there is not enough gun customizability". But that is all I hear... what are these glaring problems that I am not seeing? I mean, you put this next to Gears of War a game that has very few people that dislike it and that reviews were all perfect and it just totally rapes it on all levels. The only thing I can think is that people are comparing it to open world RPGs like Fallout and Oblivion (which does not make any sense) and they have more open ended environments... yet I'd say more limiting options for story.

So what is it exactly? And I 100% know (and from first hand experience) that there are vocal people that hate everything. But, this seems to be more common than most games I see... like it is "cool" to dislike it. It almost seems like EA did such a weird ass advertising job that they brought in all the douchebags that were playing Madden and MW2 and now they are bitching because ya can't chain saw a locust.

I've had a lot of free time recently...

One last thing... what is with the insane amount of ADD in gamers? They complain about everything that is not instant; elevator rides, space exploration, mining and load times. Are most gamers snorting coke and shaking their leg while they play?[/QUOTE]

My only big OCD complaint is the lack of being able to have no helmets on with the DLC armor sets during conversation. I would like more guns/armor available but there are options there if you want to do the mining/buy upgrades.

The mining is a bit tedious but it's quicker than the Mako and if minerals are such an important item in this game vs. just being bonus xp/sidequest like they were in the first one then I'm all for it being quicker. Just buy the scanner upgrade ASAP and scan a few planets in each system the story takes you to and you'll be fine.

Anyone who thinks Gears is better I cannot agree with in the slightest. I can understand if some people think Halo/CoD is better (I still don't agree with them) but I can't concede anyone thinking Gears is better.
 
Welp, I am a bit late to the party since my wife and I had a baby last week. I just finished my "normal" play through yesterday (as a soldier) and have started an insanity run (as infiltrator) to get my last three achievements. I did not do every side mission on my first playthrough, but all characters lived.

ME1 had a stronger main storyline in my opinion. ME2 is fleshed out more in the details and the characters. Or in other terms, ME1 was more about the destination and 'finding out' than the journey there. ME2 was more about the journey and I was less invested in the conclusion when I arrived.

It is a little sad that you no longer get experience from codex entries, hacking, killing enemies. Less satisfying for completionist gamers such as myself.

Global cooldowns on skills is sort of a bummer. Sort of limiting when selecting a bonus skill... why pick another activated skill that is only going to delay your class's bread and butter skill.

Scanning is rather silly. But once you learn that there is way more material than you could possibly need out there, and you start tagging only the high peaking rich deposits on planets, it goes fairly quickly.

Other than that, ME2 is the superior game in every way. Some of the complaints lodged against the changes made I cannot understand.

The clips were a nice change. Some of the guns have too little ammo, but I have fun dashing and sliding into cover to pick up additional clips while in the middle of a fight. It is certainly nice not to have my primary gun overheated and rendered worthless by enemy tech all the time.

Although I am up for more weapon choices than what is in currently, this system is a ton better than ME1. Really, once I unlocked the level appropriate spectre weapons, and tossed the best upgrades into them, there was not much use in the 6.7 million weapons/upgrades that dropped in every mission. Same goes once you got colossus armor. I bet by the end of a few playthroughs, all the people going on about gear "customization" were running the exact same loadout (minus ammunition) as everyone else on everything. The ME2 system is much less convoluted and serves the same purpose once ammo skills are taken into account.

I like having to use cover. Yeah, you hide, shoot, move, hide, shoot. But guess what I did in ME1? Barge into a room on insanity with no fear at all, pop a singularity, my weapon skill, and mow things down while they floated around helpless. Pop adrenaline burst, repeat.

Anyways, I have plenty of other thoughts about the game, but I shall save them until I finish my 'perfect' insanity playthrough for ME3.
 
i finished yesterday and it was awesome. I already cant wait for me3, and it is probably 2 years away or more.

My only real complaint was that i didnt have enough credits to buy all of the guns and research items. i would have loved to have been able to sell some of those minerals, and i actually liked the mineral scanning, but i liked the mako as well so go figure.
 
Dracula: I ran out of things to buy. I may have missed an item or two at a couple of shops though. I only checked Omega before the end and I had bought all that stuff. But I went to every star system and scanned looking for extra missions (some of them are pretty neat and all varied which of course is a bit improvement over ME1).

Just finished my first playthrough on Normal.

About the suicide mission:

Crap - I lost Tali. I'm gonna have to replay that. I didn't read anything about the suicide mission other than the achievement so I knew you could lose people. I assume you can lose more. I chose for Tali to do the ventilation duct thing. I still assume she is the best choice for that so I guess you have to use one of the other options. Blast through or something?

Anyway, I wonder what you could have happen in the later parts? I used Samara to lead the second team (seemed like Miranda vs Jack was a conflict so I went with someone they should all respect - not sure if that makes any difference though). Then I sent Zaeed back with the doctor freed from the pod. Is it not possible to recover Chambers (or whatever the woman is called who gives you info about the crew)? Then I used Samara for my biotic shield and had Miranda lead the other group. Then I took legion and Mordin with me for the end fight. All of that worked out and I will do the same when I play it again tomorrow night. But I'm just curious - how can you lose people in the later parts?

About the ending choice:

I chose to destroy the base. Does anyone think it would be better to leave it for ME3? That seems like a major decision that could have a huge impact on the next game.

I'm avoiding reading back too much through this thread so I don't see too many other spoilers, though I'm not sure there are many left for me at this point. So I apologize if my issues have been discussed many times - hopefully someone can give some concise answers. Anyway, because of that one mistake I need to replay the ending again - thankfully it isn't too long (I was actually surprised at how quickly it all ended to be honest).
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']Man, this game is so damn weird. There are so many people that down right hate it and so many that just love it. There are people that complained that Mass Effect 1 needed to be more of a shooter and then complain that Mass Effect 2 needs to be more RPG. The game is so different that most people can't grasp the essential concept. When I play it, I cannot possibly see how you could not like it. But there are people that do...

...And then they say, "It is way overrated there are so many problems with it. Like, mining is boring and there is not enough gun customizability". But that is all I hear... what are these glaring problems that I am not seeing? I mean, you put this next to Gears of War a game that has very few people that dislike it and that reviews were all perfect and it just totally rapes it on all levels. The only thing I can think is that people are comparing it to open world RPGs like Fallout and Oblivion (which does not make any sense) and they have more open ended environments... yet I'd say more limiting options for story.

So what is it exactly? And I 100% know (and from first hand experience) that there are vocal people that hate everything. But, this seems to be more common than most games I see... like it is "cool" to dislike it. It almost seems like EA did such a weird ass advertising job that they brought in all the douchebags that were playing Madden and MW2 and now they are bitching because ya can't chain saw a locust.

I've had a lot of free time recently...

One last thing... what is with the insane amount of ADD in gamers? They complain about everything that is not instant; elevator rides, space exploration, mining and load times. Are most gamers snorting coke and shaking their leg while they play?[/QUOTE]

As much as I respect and adore Bioware as a company it is only natural to see this kind of reaction and divide among your fanbase when you've alternated between one extreme (ME1 - RPG first, Shooter second - RPG Shooter with weaker shooter mechanics) to the next (ME2 - Shooter first, RPG second - Shooter RPG with weaker RPG elements).

It's even more difficult to sympathize with the company or either side of the argument because both have brought to light plenty of worthwhile criticism which is necessary for evolving the series. IMO if you honestly played the first game you'd have to be crazy to believe this one is any more well balanced or lacking than the original was. Of course as with any community you're going to have to weed out or ignore the blatant trolls and morons spewing out bias nonsensical garbage. However I strongly believe this type of tug-a-war is necessary in helping mold and direct ME3 into being the best and first game of the series to properly balance the best elements from both genres because the company cares enough about us to take our opinions into account.
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']Man, this game is so damn weird. There are so many people that down right hate it and so many that just love it. There are people that complained that Mass Effect 1 needed to be more of a shooter and then complain that Mass Effect 2 needs to be more RPG. The game is so different that most people can't grasp the essential concept. When I play it, I cannot possibly see how you could not like it. But there are people that do...

...And then they say, "It is way overrated there are so many problems with it. Like, mining is boring and there is not enough gun customizability". But that is all I hear... what are these glaring problems that I am not seeing? I mean, you put this next to Gears of War a game that has very few people that dislike it and that reviews were all perfect and it just totally rapes it on all levels. The only thing I can think is that people are comparing it to open world RPGs like Fallout and Oblivion (which does not make any sense) and they have more open ended environments... yet I'd say more limiting options for story.

So what is it exactly? And I 100% know (and from first hand experience) that there are vocal people that hate everything. But, this seems to be more common than most games I see... like it is "cool" to dislike it. It almost seems like EA did such a weird ass advertising job that they brought in all the douchebags that were playing Madden and MW2 and now they are bitching because ya can't chain saw a locust.

I've had a lot of free time recently...

One last thing... what is with the insane amount of ADD in gamers? They complain about everything that is not instant; elevator rides, space exploration, mining and load times. Are most gamers snorting coke and shaking their leg while they play?[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']As much as I respect and adore Bioware as a company it is only natural to see this kind of reaction and divide among your fanbase when you've alternated between one extreme (ME1 - RPG first, Shooter second - RPG Shooter with weaker shooter mechanics) to the next (ME2 - Shooter first, RPG second - Shooter RPG with weaker RPG elements).

It's even more difficult to sympathize with the company or either side of the argument because both have brought to light plenty of worthwhile criticism which is necessary for evolving the series. IMO if you honestly played the first game you'd have to be crazy to believe this one is any more well balanced or lacking than the original was. Of course as with any community you're going to have to weed out or ignore the blatant trolls and morons spewing out bias nonsensical garbage. However I strongly believe this type of tug-a-war is necessary in helping mold and direct ME3 into being the best and first game of the series to properly balance the best elements from both genres because the company cares enough about us to take our opinions into account.[/QUOTE]
I may be in the minority, but I honestly can't say that I believe Mass Effect 2 is Shooter first, RPG second by any means. Coming from someone who sank ~450 hours into ME1 and ~130 hours already into ME2, I'm quite sure that I have a firm grasp of both games. Any discussion of the balance of the two genres is fairly subjective, anyways, but I just don't agree with the majority opinion.

I can easily say that the quality of the RPG elements of ME1 heavily outweighed that of the Shooter elements. The RPG aspects were very detailed and complex, while the Shooter aspects (not taking into account Biotics and Tech powers) were simple and could get stale. The game had a fair balance of dialog/conversations and action, and it was good enough to keep the game moving even through the slower parts (first visit to the Citadel, Mako exploration, etc.). Although I'm never going to clock the "amount of time I spent in conversations" versus the "time I spent in combat", I can comment on what it felt like after all was said and done - and for me it felt like it was a 60/40 split (out-of-combat/combat)*.

Fast forward to ME2.

Now, I can easily say that both the quality of the RPG elements of ME2 and the Shooter elements are much improved. Despite both areas of the game being improved, I still believe the RPG side reigns superior over the Shooter side. The problem I see with the average - i.e. BioWare forums member - "ME2 needs to be more RPG" opinions is that they only focus on the (large) improvements made in the Shooter portions of the game and forget/disregard the improvements made in the RPG sections. While the majority opinion seems to harp on elements like cover, weapon upgrades, and thermal clips - I tend to harp on things like character interaction, relationships with new/old squadmates, cohesiveness of the story, the actual dilemmas I face with certain decisions, and the risk/reward factor that exists all throughout the game.

Like I said before, I don't care about what the official split is between "time spent in conversations/scanning/running around the Citadel, Omega, Illium" is versus "time spent in combat", all I care about is what it feels like after having completed the game - and, for me, it was about a 55/45 split (out-of-combat/combat)*.

* = Insanity difficulty could have you spending a lot more time in combat, but that's a variable.
 
[quote name='io']Just finished my first playthrough on Normal.

About the suicide mission:

Crap - I lost Tali. I'm gonna have to replay that. I didn't read anything about the suicide mission other than the achievement so I knew you could lose people. I assume you can lose more. I chose for Tali to do the ventilation duct thing. I still assume she is the best choice for that so I guess you have to use one of the other options. Blast through or something?

Anyway, I wonder what you could have happen in the later parts? I used Samara to lead the second team (seemed like Miranda vs Jack was a conflict so I went with someone they should all respect - not sure if that makes any difference though). Then I sent Zaeed back with the doctor freed from the pod. Is it not possible to recover Chambers (or whatever the woman is called who gives you info about the crew)? Then I used Samara for my biotic shield and had Miranda lead the other group. Then I took legion and Mordin with me for the end fight. All of that worked out and I will do the same when I play it again tomorrow night. But I'm just curious - how can you lose people in the later parts?

About the ending choice:

I chose to destroy the base. Does anyone think it would be better to leave it for ME3? That seems like a major decision that could have a huge impact on the next game.

I'm avoiding reading back too much through this thread so I don't see too many other spoilers, though I'm not sure there are many left for me at this point. So I apologize if my issues have been discussed many times - hopefully someone can give some concise answers. Anyway, because of that one mistake I need to replay the ending again - thankfully it isn't too long (I was actually surprised at how quickly it all ended to be honest).[/QUOTE]I'll try to comment on your post without revealing what happens with different decisions - as I understand you would still like some element of surprise.
Your decision to use Tali for the ventilation ducts was sound. She's arguably the best Technician in the group (rivaled only by Legion) and she should have no trouble making it through, providing that you hit all necessary switches in time and that you have her loyalty. The other deciding factor for her survival in the vents is the 2nd team leader whom you chose on the Normandy. If Tali did take a rocket to the face once you hit the first checkpoint, maybe review your choice for team lead? I will say that there are only a few options that will work in this case, and they depend heavily on factors such as: experience leading a team/small squad, and possibly experience with Cerberus/Alliance. I may even suggest using the same person for the Distraction team lead and the Fire team lead - as it should work twice, no? I will also say that there are at least two working options that will not give rise to any Miranda/Jack conflicts that may or may not exist.

Regarding the squadmate in control of the Barrier: at the midway point of the mission, there's only a couple choices that really seem like they'd work. You could argue that almost half your team has biotics (and Miranda even says "Anyone would Biotics could do it!"), but after seeing the amount of stress that holding that barrier up causes to the holder - it makes sense that only a couple of people wield that kind of biotic power necessary of maintaining the Barrier.

Concerning the fate of the Normandy crew: this is one area that may not be quite as obvious as picking certain people for tasks at the end. If you listen (or read) carefully whenever the Normandy is first able to head through the Omega 4 Relay (once the IFF is working), you instantly have the choice to go through and rescue your crew. There's even a dialog option when you pull up the Omega 4 Relay where Shepard says something about not leaving his crew to die with the Collectors and going to rescue them. Without giving you the flat-out answer to the question, I will say that being more expeditious has its benefits in terms of who lives/dies.

To answer your final question about how you lose members at certain parts: the main two factors for losing teammates revolves around the Distraction/Fire team leaders and who you choose to hold up the Barrier. Any wrong decision in either two areas will lead to certain death for at least one squadmate.

One final note about the ending decision: it really comes down to making the moral choice versus making a tactical choice. By making the Paragon choice, you are basically saying that nothing is worth the pain/death that all of the thousands upon thousands of people suffered at the hands of the Collectors. By making the Renegade choice, you are saying that humanity must use the Reaper technology to fully understand the enemy and to defeat them. I'm sure that decision will have a monumental effect on ME3 - much more than that of saving the Council or letting them die, ala ME1.
 
On getting the "No one left behind" achievement:
I think that you need entire squad loyal in order to get this because my only non loyal squad member is Jack. I lost her loyalty (but not her awesome warp bullets) when I sided with Miranda when they had their little pillow fight, and despite a full paragon bar I could not charm her back. On the last mission I could not keep her alive; I tried sending her back with the rescued crew, I tried leaving her with the team while they guard the door and I tried taking her into the final boss fight, but she dies no matter what. Looks like I am going to have to get the achievement on my second playthrough.

Also, I used Legion as the tech specialist, Garrus as the leader both times, Samara as the biotic, and sent Zaeed back with the crew without losing anyone.
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']
One final note about the ending decision: it really comes down to making the moral choice versus making a tactical choice. By making the Paragon choice, you are basically saying that nothing is worth the pain/death that all of the thousands upon thousands of people suffered at the hands of the Collectors. By making the Renegade choice, you are saying that humanity must use the Reaper technology to fully understand the enemy and to defeat them. I'm sure that decision will have a monumental effect on ME3 - much more than that of saving the Council or letting them die, ala ME1.
[/QUOTE]

I think the best part about that final decision is that using the Collector base is probably going to HURT your efforts against the Reapers. They are intimately familiar with the technology used in the base, so it is only logical that they would know how to counter it. Earlier in the thread someone mentioned a comment Legion makes about how following the path of the Reapers is folly. I'm gonna have to agree with Legion on this one.

The Reapers have left all this wonderful technology for these civilizations to use, and it has done nothing but lead to the utter ruin of the civilizations that use the technology. So really, I wonder if making the Renegade choice is just setting everyone up for a nasty surprise once the Reaper fleet arrives. Mass Effect 3 cannot get here fast enough.
 
[quote name='Dasflikko']
I think the best part about that final decision is that using the Collector base is probably going to HURT your efforts against the Reapers. They are intimately familiar with the technology used in the base, so it is only logical that they would know how to counter it. Earlier in the thread someone mentioned a comment Legion makes about how following the path of the Reapers is folly. I'm gonna have to agree with Legion on this one.

The Reapers have left all this wonderful technology for these civilizations to use, and it has done nothing but lead to the utter ruin of the civilizations that use the technology. So really, I wonder if making the Renegade choice is just setting everyone up for a nasty surprise once the Reaper fleet arrives. Mass Effect 3 cannot get here fast enough.
[/QUOTE]
The other side of that coin is that The Illusive Man will be the one in control of the facility/station once Cerberus sets it up for use. You have technology that you're unsure of, in terms of its usefulness and how it will help you gain an advantage, and you have someone running it who you're even more unsure of. That's too much impending disaster for my Shepard to accept.
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']
The other side of that coin is that The Illusive Man will be the one in control of the facility/station once Cerberus sets it up for use. You have technology that you're unsure of, in terms of its usefulness and how it will help you gain an advantage, and you have someone running it who you're even more unsure of. That's too much impending disaster for my Shepard to accept.
[/QUOTE]

Haha no kidding, it is nice that Cerberus brought Shepard back, but man it wouldn't surprise me if Cerberus used Reaper technology to bring Shepard back in the first place. The Illusive Man can kiss my ass. And I seriously hope that telling him to fuck off will setup a quest chain that has you going against Cerberus in ME3.
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']
The other side of that coin is that The Illusive Man will be the one in control of the facility/station once Cerberus sets it up for use. You have technology that you're unsure of, in terms of its usefulness and how it will help you gain an advantage, and you have someone running it who you're even more unsure of. That's too much impending disaster for my Shepard to accept.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that was pretty much my reasoning too.

The Reaper tech just seemed like something more likely to come back and bite you in the ass, and there was no way in hell I was giving it to the Illusive Man and Cerberus. Seems too great a chance that they'd use it to further humans and wipe out/reduce aliens.
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']Man, this game is so damn weird. There are so many people that down right hate it and so many that just love it. There are people that complained that Mass Effect 1 needed to be more of a shooter and then complain that Mass Effect 2 needs to be more RPG. The game is so different that most people can't grasp the essential concept. When I play it, I cannot possibly see how you could not like it. But there are people that do...

...And then they say, "It is way overrated there are so many problems with it. Like, mining is boring and there is not enough gun customizability". But that is all I hear... what are these glaring problems that I am not seeing? I mean, you put this next to Gears of War a game that has very few people that dislike it and that reviews were all perfect and it just totally rapes it on all levels. The only thing I can think is that people are comparing it to open world RPGs like Fallout and Oblivion (which does not make any sense) and they have more open ended environments... yet I'd say more limiting options for story.

So what is it exactly? And I 100% know (and from first hand experience) that there are vocal people that hate everything. But, this seems to be more common than most games I see... like it is "cool" to dislike it. It almost seems like EA did such a weird ass advertising job that they brought in all the douchebags that were playing Madden and MW2 and now they are bitching because ya can't chain saw a locust.

I've had a lot of free time recently...

One last thing... what is with the insane amount of ADD in gamers? They complain about everything that is not instant; elevator rides, space exploration, mining and load times. Are most gamers snorting coke and shaking their leg while they play?[/QUOTE]

:bouncy::applause::bomb:
Those are the reactions this game gets. Frankly I'm of the bouncy side and due to my game design background, among my age of 25, I believe I can appreciate games as for how much hard work you can see a development team put in. I mean they totally revamped everything! The mining isn't a big deal but since it's required now I think they need to revamp that for ME3 if they intend to keep the focus on collecting resources. It makes sense when you are up against a huge evil force; you need resources, upgrades, resources of other species/cultures and some planets give you a little side quest while you're at it.

The reason most developers aren't blending a few genres together is because you might end up with all genres in the game but none of them fully produced but I think Bioware did a great job with this game. Funny considering I loved the first one and I absolutely love the second one. ME3 is going to give me a boner lol.:lol:
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']I may be in the minority, but I honestly can't say that I believe Mass Effect 2 is Shooter first, RPG second by any means. Coming from someone who sank ~450 hours into ME1 and ~130 hours already into ME2, I'm quite sure that I have a firm grasp of both games. Any discussion of the balance of the two genres is fairly subjective, anyways, but I just don't agree with the majority opinion.

I can easily say that the quality of the RPG elements of ME1 heavily outweighed that of the Shooter elements. The RPG aspects were very detailed and complex, while the Shooter aspects (not taking into account Biotics and Tech powers) were simple and could get stale. The game had a fair balance of dialog/conversations and action, and it was good enough to keep the game moving even through the slower parts (first visit to the Citadel, Mako exploration, etc.). Although I'm never going to clock the "amount of time I spent in conversations" versus the "time I spent in combat", I can comment on what it felt like after all was said and done - and for me it felt like it was a 60/40 split (out-of-combat/combat)*.

Fast forward to ME2.

Now, I can easily say that both the quality of the RPG elements of ME2 and the Shooter elements are much improved. Despite both areas of the game being improved, I still believe the RPG side reigns superior over the Shooter side. The problem I see with the average - i.e. BioWare forums member - "ME2 needs to be more RPG" opinions is that they only focus on the (large) improvements made in the Shooter portions of the game and forget/disregard the improvements made in the RPG sections. While the majority opinion seems to harp on elements like cover, weapon upgrades, and thermal clips - I tend to harp on things like character interaction, relationships with new/old squadmates, cohesiveness of the story, the actual dilemmas I face with certain decisions, and the risk/reward factor that exists all throughout the game.

Like I said before, I don't care about what the official split is between "time spent in conversations/scanning/running around the Citadel, Omega, Illium" is versus "time spent in combat", all I care about is what it feels like after having completed the game - and, for me, it was about a 55/45 split (out-of-combat/combat)*.

* = Insanity difficulty could have you spending a lot more time in combat, but that's a variable.[/QUOTE]

I can see now we're always going to agree to disagree when it comes to our own opinions of what accurately defines an RPG to both of us. In this case I believe the hefty amount of culling and oversimplification of what most would refer to as 'traditional' or 'archaic' elements barely represented the genre in a recognizable light. If anything even after taking into account what I felt worked and what didn't the results were indicative of Shooter assimilation rather than actual RPG progression thus shifting balance once more to one genre. I'm well aware among years long since passed the same elements you happen to value most were dumbed down or absent in a large majority of titles, but in today's industry I believe the lines are more than just substantially blurred.

As a child it wasn't never just about the remarkable amount of dedication infused in crafting a universe fueled entirely by interactive storyline driven game play. For me it was a culmination of that and particular outside elements treated with same level of depth and care. Like it or not, loot hunting, depth of customization and exploration over the years all had in a hand in helping shape and define RPGs... distinctly differentiating them from any other action based video game. As I said before after investing close to same amount of hours you have into this game I'm equally assured I haven't overlooked or blatantly ignored what the company has done right here. I've recognized and can appreciate most if not all of what was done in the sequel by streamlining or eliminating plenty of the more tedious aspects prevalent in the genre. Regardless after evaluation I couldn't help but reach the very same personal opinion I had formed from the first play-through. I still feel they went overboard in many different areas with it either to accentuate certain features or attract and appease a certain audience.

Make no mistake this has always been a quality over quantity issue for me. Simply put the RPG elements ME2 provided though entertaining and obviously cohesive to Bioware's vision of the sequel has currently failed to impressed and adequately satisfy the RPG gamer side of me. Just as ME1 failed to impressed and adequately satisfy the Shooter gamer side of me as well.

But... as you said yourself any discussion of this nature is highly subjective, very messy, and likely to create unnecessary animosity among peers. You just won't see me in agreement that these improvements prevalent in the sequel actually stabilized the genre imbalance of the trilogy rather than continue to shift it in an opposite direction.
 
You know it is interesting when people say this game has such and such RPG elements or is missing such and such RPG elements. Or it is a shooter, and not an rpg, etc etc.

What exactly is an RPG? I think that is what this boils down to. "Traditional" rpg gameplay consists of inventory management, stat building, dungeon crawling and lots of battles in which you earn money and experience to improve your character. Rpgs also tend to have either a very story/character driven narratives. Mass Effect 2 has a lot of these characteristics but a lot are not as robust as other games.

Some people find all of those things fun, and I used to find a lot of that stuff fun too. What I personally do not find very fun in traditional rpgs is inventory management, and mindless level grinding. What I find most fun about rpgs is 1) the story elements usually have a lot of depth and nuance (the good ones anyways) 2) the exploration of an interesting universe.

I fall into the category that thinks Mass Effect 2 is more "shooter" than "rpg" but only in the sense that I have to pick these arbitrary labels to define the game. I think this game is a very important evolution of rpgs. Bioware has basically shown us that it is possible to have all of the great things about rpgs and little to none of the bad. Really I think the only thing this game is missing is a good sense of exploration and slightly better class balancing.

It nails the story and characters, the battles are intense and have a lot of depth to them, the streamlined inventory allows each particular type of weapon to have very significant purpose so I can start focusing on when to use weapons as opposed to worrying about having the strongest uber weapon available.

I think Bioware really surprised people with just how far they evolved Mass Effect 2 from the first game. They probably should have done a better job showcasing and informing people of what direction they took this game.
 
I feel Mass Effect is the only game that is an actual Role Playing Game. You play a role that shapes the Universe throughout the series. No other game does that. But, when I hear people refer to the RPG elements - I just consider the traditional; leveling, looting and stats.
 
[quote name='Dasflikko']I fall into the category that thinks Mass Effect 2 is more "shooter" than "rpg" but only in the sense that I have to pick these arbitrary labels to define the game.[/QUOTE]

Why shouldn't you? Mass Effect is neither just an RPG or Shooter game but an RPG-Shooter game hence why concern with balance as well both genres being equally, adequately and faithfully represented for the right reasons. Not just represented, period. Of course to what particular degree and level is a highly subjective matter... and wow. I really need to shut the f*ck up and drop this. Not sure why I even started it here in the first place. I know better so I apologize in advance... Ugh.

I'm done. Seriously.
 
The way I see it, people can label the Mass Effect games however the hell they please. I'll continue playing the series because I love it and I've grown attached to the universe, story, and characters.

Oh, and it's fun. That's a pretty good reason to like the games, too.
 
Thanks for the comments guys.

Some notes:

So I have full loyalty and I guess the only mistake was having Samara lead the second team. I used Samara as the biotic and Miranda as the distraction team lead with no problem. Maybe I'll use Garrus for the first team next time (because, yeah, Tali got a rocket to the head just as she was closing the door).

As for the Normandy crew, I'm pretty sure I picked the "save the crew" option and yet I only ever got one member free (the doctor). You mean you can save more? Does messing around with normal missions (planet scanning and such) right after the Geth hacking mission instead of going after them immediately effect this or does it all just depend on what you say once you start the suicide mission? I was trying to find every last planet mission before getting to the end to see if I could get my character to level 30 (didn't quite make it). I'd hate to lose all that work (about 6 hours worth) but I'll go back if it means saving all/most of the crew.
 
[quote name='Dasflikko']Apologize for what? I think it is an interesting discussion, you come across very well with your points.[/QUOTE]

Thanks but from my end I'm going to put this particular discussion to bed. I've seen more than my fair share of the type of fallout spawned from it. It's never pretty and I don't want to take any chances or mistakenly ruin the friendly atmosphere here. Not that I would ever compare this sensible community to a certain fanatical other. I just don't trust myself to continue debating without eventually misinterpretting responses or inadvertently insulting others.

Anyway... I think it is relatively safe to say I found my solution to shoddy AI hijinks in the Insanity late game via Heavy Warp's devastating raw power and Swiss Army Knife esque usefulness. Especially when you've increased accessibility by having Miranda and Thane in your main party. Oh god... it is almost criminal the amount of rape I have been dishing out on the battlefield. The hilarity increases ten fold for certain sub-bosses as they freak the hell out while searching for cover after you've DEMOLISHED their shields and armor in less than a second. Couple in the auto-aim your squad has for Biotics and you've got a recipe for absolute win. They almost never miss... it is disgusting. If they do it doesn't matter because the rest of us have fully cooled down to compensate.

I just wish there was an easy solution to countering squad idiocy on a lower level profile. For now though I am satisfied knowing all main story missions will be taken care of properly. ^_^
 
I don't get why this game has to be an RPG. Mass Effect 1 aside, ME 2 is it's own entity, and on it's own merits (whether that's an RPG or not) its a great game.

Genre labels and limitations are all an antiquated idea in this day and age, in my opinion.
 
These next three lines are my favorite so far, so I'll respond to them:
[quote name='Dasflikko']I think this game is a very important evolution of rpgs.[/QUOTE]I believe that Mass Effect has really alienated itself from the RPG genre, and has (hopefully) set a precedent for future games. Of course, this idea is the basis for discussion (or, in some places, arguing/fighting - *not here* :cool:) between the two sides that want more traditional RPG elements in the game, and those that welcome the "new breed" of RPG elements with open arms. [Disclaimer: neither side is more right than the other, it's all personal/subjective]

[quote name='DarkNessBear']I feel Mass Effect is the only game that is an actual Role Playing Game.[/QUOTE]My version of this statement would be: the Mass Effect series is the only one in which my consequences really do matter and make a visible/substantial impact on the world around me and the gameplay.

[quote name='Arikado']I'll continue playing the series because I love it and I've grown attached to the universe, story, and characters.[/QUOTE]My love for all of the above makes me wonder if this is how young adults felt when Star Wars first hit.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[quote name='Ink.So.Well.'][response to my post][/QUOTE]I don't mind us having differing opinions at all, actually. It's nice to have opposing opinions alongside mine - and it even creates a nice balance to the thread. Seeing as how we've both logged close to 200 posts in this thread, I find it kind of cool and ironic that we're in two different places with regards to the overall game :).
 
[quote name='io']Thanks for the comments guys.

Some notes:

So I have full loyalty and I guess the only mistake was having Samara lead the second team. I used Samara as the biotic and Miranda as the distraction team lead with no problem. Maybe I'll use Garrus for the first team next time (because, yeah, Tali got a rocket to the head just as she was closing the door).

As for the Normandy crew, I'm pretty sure I picked the "save the crew" option and yet I only ever got one member free (the doctor). You mean you can save more? Does messing around with normal missions (planet scanning and such) right after the Geth hacking mission instead of going after them immediately effect this or does it all just depend on what you say once you start the suicide mission? I was trying to find every last planet mission before getting to the end to see if I could get my character to level 30 (didn't quite make it). I'd hate to lose all that work (about 6 hours worth) but I'll go back if it means saving all/most of the crew.
[/QUOTE]

If you do any missions after the crew is kidnapped, you'll lose at least some of the crew, or possibly all of them depending on how many missions you do. Also if you don't send someone to cover their retreat to the Normandy they die.

Note that you can do Legion's Loyalty mission without triggering the kidnapping if you activate/talk to Legion before you go to the Galaxy Map after the Reaper IFF mission.
 
[quote name='Dasflikko']
What I find most fun about rpgs is 1) the story elements usually have a lot of depth and nuance (the good ones anyways) 2) the exploration of an interesting universe.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Those are the two things I love about RPGs and Mass Effect nails them while getting rid of the parts I don't like such as level grinding, inventory management etc.

Also, it does great on the combat which is another weakness of most RPGs where it's either passive, turn based menu driven battles or pretty mindless hack and slash like Diablo or Oblivion.


[quote name='io']Thanks for the comments guys.

Some notes:

So I have full loyalty and I guess the only mistake was having Samara lead the second team. I used Samara as the biotic and Miranda as the distraction team lead with no problem. Maybe I'll use Garrus for the first team next time (because, yeah, Tali got a rocket to the head just as she was closing the door).

As for the Normandy crew, I'm pretty sure I picked the "save the crew" option and yet I only ever got one member free (the doctor). You mean you can save more? Does messing around with normal missions (planet scanning and such) right after the Geth hacking mission instead of going after them immediately effect this or does it all just depend on what you say once you start the suicide mission? I was trying to find every last planet mission before getting to the end to see if I could get my character to level 30 (didn't quite make it). I'd hate to lose all that work (about 6 hours worth) but I'll go back if it means saving all/most of the crew.
[/QUOTE]

Yes to save all the crew you don't want to do any more side quests, or anything that wastes time. As soon as the crew is kidnapped head straight through the Omega 4 relay and you can save all of them. The longer you wait the fewer you save.
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']My version of this statement would be: the Mass Effect series is the only one in which my consequences really do matter and make a visible/substantial impact on the world around me and the gameplay.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for adding a bit more substance to that particular statement because it took all of my self control not to respond to it. Most notably what I've left in bold though regardless is still open to a substantial amount of criticism.

I don't mind us having differing opinions at all, actually. It's nice to have opposing opinions alongside mine - and it even creates a nice balance to the thread. Seeing as how we've both logged close to 200 posts in this thread, I find it kind of cool and ironic that we're in two different places with regards to the overall game :).
Click to expand...
Heh... fair enough and I feel the same way. After all I consider you CAG's official Mass Effect historian/walking encyclopedia so you haven't left me with much ground to cover except frequent game play analysis and how the company decided to handle the delicate line of genre balance.

With that said... if you cover the lore and I cover the game mechanics then where is our severely underrated rabid fanboy/fangirl element? Not to mention a "voice of reason"/ dominate neutral party between the two of us? ;(
 
I want to bring up another contentious topic in this thread. Too much Tali love going on here. Ink.So.Well, Tha Xecutioner, and Arikado all have Tali as their avatar and/or signature. Come on guys, there's plenty of characters to love in Mass Effect. Spread the love around a little. ;)
 
[quote name='Ink.So.Well.']Thank you for adding a bit more substance to that particular statement because it took all of my self control not to respond to it. Most notably what I've left in bold though regardless is still open to a substantial amount of criticism.

Heh... fair enough and I feel the same way. After all I consider you CAG's official Mass Effect historian/walking encyclopedia so you haven't left me with much ground to cover except frequent game play analysis and how the company decided to handle the delicate line of genre balance.

With that said... if you cover the lore and I cover the game mechanics then where is our severely underrated rabid fanboy/fangirl element? Not to mention a "voice of reason"/ dominate neutral party between the two of us? ;([/QUOTE]The voice of reason gets split up between everyone who's been making good posts since this thread's existence (an overwhelming majority). My inner fanboy can't put down the controller long enough to make an appearance here, so that task must also be handed off to another.

[quote name='BingoBrown']I want to bring up another contentious topic in this thread. Too much Tali love going on here. Ink.So.Well, Tha Xecutioner, and Arikado all have Tali as their avatar and/or signature. Come on guys, there's plenty of characters to love in Mass Effect. Spread the love around a little. ;)[/QUOTE]:lol:

Tali is the one, undeniable truth that anyone/everyone eventually comes to understand in the Mass Effect universe. For balance, my gamer profile for Xbox LIVE is 100% Thane (motto, name/location, bio). That, and I can't find a good picture to use for a Legion avatar.
 
[quote name='Tha Xecutioner']That, and I can't find a good picture to use for a Legion avatar.[/QUOTE]

Here's a couple of decent Legion signatures on DeviantArt (where I grabbed my Grunt sig).

Legion_Signature_by_Stealthero.jpg
Legion_Signature_2_by_Stealthero.jpg
 
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[quote name='BingoBrown']I want to bring up another contentious topic in this thread. Too much Tali love going on here. Ink.So.Well, Tha Xecutioner, and Arikado all have Tali as their avatar and/or signature. Come on guys, there's plenty of characters to love in Mass Effect. Spread the love around a little. ;)[/QUOTE]

LOL!

*Ahem*

I think (in the most polite way possible...) that you can immediately shut the hell up and mind your business Mr. Buster Brown. One would think I've proven myself as a loyal but conservative fanboy by rocking a Tali avatar ever since I recalled registering on this site years ago. If anything shouldn't the rest of THEM switch up THEIR forum appearances since I am the only one with a gamer tag related to her person? Sounds like the makings of a fair and proper solution to me. ;)

Besides can you really blame us for acknowledging near perfection? Bioware's writers and design team working with Ms. Sroka's talented (and cute) ass is the problem here, not us.
 
[quote name='BingoBrown']Here's a couple of decent Legion signatures on DeviantArt (where I grabbed my Wrex sig). [/QUOTE]I check that site, as well as a couple of others, from time to time. I usually prefer animated or cartoony takes on characters, but thanks for looking :cool:
 
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