Pro Wrestling discussion topic--WWE, AEW, ROH, Impact, New Japan, indies

Just finished night 1 of Honor Rising (NJPW/ROH crossover), it's nice watching without commentary. Was also a nice touch seeing the heels fraternizing, Lethal/Naito exchanged swag.
 
Dr. Venkman said:
In total seriousness I'd bet Taker has a match with Finn Balor. The Deadman Vs. The Demon.
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Can't see them putting a comparatively unknown guy in there in the most important match of the night in front of what they hope will be their biggest crowd of all time. That's not the WWE mentality.

 
KaneRobot said:
Can't see them putting a comparatively unknown guy in there in the most important match of the night in front of what they hope will be their biggest crowd of all time. That's not the WWE mentality.
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Unless they actually want to build a guy.

WWE mentality though, gotcha. You're not wrong there.

 
If only Finn wasn't champ and Joe wasn't supposed to be coming up. I know Finn is good enough, but their styles seen so different. Taker seems like he has better matchups now with bruisers/slower paced workers.
 
Kickoff panel is basically treating Roman like the underdog. So of course the obvious win is very unlikely to change. And on top of an obvious win, we'll get a bunch of oh my god I can't believe he overcame the odds!
 
going to say that ambros wins, they took belt off him this week setting him up for the next one. brock will fight wyatt at wrestlemania and romain will fight rollins

 
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2 good matches followed by the snoozer of the night.

Rollins isn't coming back. I do expect Wyatt being fed to Brock for no good reason.
 
I didn't watch the kickoff show until the last five minutes but I'm glad that ADR match is out of the way.

And did you guys know Dean and Roman are basically brothers?! Don't worry, they'll mention it again in 15 seconds if you missed the other times.
 
Preshow match was good. Charlotte/Brie was trash. Bring on Sasha.

So main event takes the last hour?

Edit: nvm, forgot about New Day. Which they're waiting for Walking Dead to end for that.
 
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And WWE lets me down with
Dean coming up short
yet again.

At least New Day segment was good. But did
the League of Nations
need to show up?

 
Now, I posed a challenge earlier because I was sincerely curious.

"Book the finish of the three way so that Roman wins and is NOT treated by the crowd as a total asshole for winning."

I don't know how you can do that. I believe you *can* do it, however, and felt confident WWE would have been able to do so.

Evidently, they do not know either.

 
It wasn't that he won, it was how he won.

They gave the crowd zero reason to prefer him over Ambrose or Lesnar during the match.

As for the finish, he took three chair shots from Dean, while 4(?) killed Lesnar dead, immediately sprung up and hit his finish, going right into the pin. That's some seriously problematic fourth-wall breaking no-selling bullshit.

I swear I'm not upset with the finish itself - you can't really be upset with Reigns/HHH at Wrestlemania, since they've been foreshadowing it since 8-9 months ago (whenever it was that HHH started begging him to join the authority). It's the culmination of a long, drawn out story - whether you like it or not doesn't matter (to me), they deserve praise for long-form storytelling here. It makes sense and it flows well.

But Ambrose looked like a bitch in that finish, Lesnar like an idiot, and Reigns kinda exposed the match going about it the way he did. Had he taken, say, 4-5 seconds to struggle to roll up Ambrose into a pin, while acting to be in a half-dead state, that might have helped substantially. But he just straight up "NOPE"d the chairshots and rebounded like Wile E Coyote after falling off a cliff.

 
I just don't like that they're going to force him into talking situations for the next six weeks when he's so awful at it. WWE is obsessed these past few years with incredibly long talking segments that just don't need to happen. Let him say like 3 lines and then beat the shit out of people.

I was expecting Bray to take out Brock, but maybe they've decided not to go that route? Maybe they wanted to show Reigns could win without interference?

And I've already decided I want either Styles or Owens to win the MitB ladder match this summer.
 
Should have known that Reigns would be making another trip to Wrestlemania, especially after how they have been building up to him facing off against HHH.

But. A slight part of me was still hopeful that Brock would win and they would try to reignite the Authority vs Lesnar angle they had started after WM last year before Taker came back and Rollins got injured. Then have Ambrose and Reigns square off at Wrestlemania after a heated exchange in the ring.

But nope. Stuck with the obvious and most depressing outcome. I think it was Wade Keller on Austins podcast a week ago mentioning having the "top guy" at the biggest show being booed out of the arena looking bad to investors and making Vince look out of touch. I really hope that happens, because I have not been happy with the main events since Rollins was injured.
 
I definitely recalled hearing Keller say that. I don't always listen to grumpy "everything is shit, WWE is stupid" wrestling podcasts (I much prefer the Taz Show and Straight Shoot - both will critique things while neither belaboring the misery in the product, nor making it the exclusive arena of their respective shows) - but last week I definitely checked into a few.

Probably Keller and Powell's pwtorch podcast from last week?

The idea of "investors" being dragged around WM seems silly for a few reasons, so while it's a charming portrait to paint, it's not accurate (nor is WWE the kind of product that people invest in - or opt to not invest in - based on who is being pushed as a babyface). It's laughably silly to think that way.

 
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mykevermin said:
The idea of "investors" being dragged around WM seems silly for a few reasons, so while it's a charming portrait to paint, it's not accurate (nor is WWE the kind of product that people invest in - or opt to not invest in - based on who is being pushed as a babyface). It's laughably silly to think that way.
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But to obviously ignore the market is a very real business concern. Like a clothing shop deciding they will carry only certain products and not carry more of what customers want. "Shorts are flying out the door, but we're a parka store dammit."
 
Apparently Meltzer is saying what we probably already kind of assumed - Brock vs Bray has been dropped. Good news is they may be leaning toward Dean and Brock now. As much as I like how Lesnar is presented, I absolutely hope if they do this match they give Dean the miracle victory. It's pretty much the only way I could see them redeeming themselves even a little bit for how they've handled his popularity so far.

----

I agree WWE still behaves much of the time like a private company, but at the same time they are not taken seriously as a company to "invest" in, so nothing is really going to change, as far as a change to getting behind what the audience wants rather than who the company wants.

Not much to say about last night other than the Wyatts losing was fucking hysterical. Watch them now try to convince us that they are a dangerous threat to whoever Bray fights at Mania.

Brie is laughable in the ring and should retire as well. I'm not sure what was worse - chuckling while she tried to fumble through "countering moves" during the match, or getting annoyed that she's trying to co-opt the "YES" thing now that Bryan is out of there.

 
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Maybe Triple H is just doing this so he can finally be the baby face... I don't know. I think this could work if Reigns goes heel with a Samoan Stable or something, but I don't think they want that at all.
 
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that saying pushing Reigns is "ignoring the market" is a gross oversimplification at best. It's confirmation bias - we know what *we* want, and craft a narrative around that. If ratings weren't growing with, say, Cesaro and Kevin Owens in the main event, we wouldn't bandy about this "investor" narrative. It's convenient, and fits with our worldview relative to the product now.

WWE is a global corporation that has a lot of planning and detail. They're astonishing, really - and when Vince says they're "not in the wrestling business," that's pretty accurate.

Investors will look at trends in stock prices, if quarterly earnings meet/exceed/fail estimates, corporate strategy for growth (esp a televised product in a volatile market where we all kinda know that cable tv and traditional delivery systems are dying a slow, agonizing death - see last week's FCC ruling, for instance), how diversified their profit centers are...there's so much to actually look at.

That said, I have NO IDEA if WWE is a worthwhile investment. I do know that the word for someone whose investment decision hinges on whether or not Reigns goes over is not a serious investor, but a mark.

Don't get me wrong. The finish to the match was absurd, and I hate it as much as you do. But let's not be so unreasonable about the implications of that.

 
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As a stock, I think WWE is probably undervalued at $16.48 a share. They're profitable in a weak market and their network revenue is growing. Even their low budget films are really profitable. If you're just looking at their financials and their ticket sales, the WWE is probably a safer bet than a pro sports team just because you know people will show up consistently. With the NFL, MLB, etc people don't show up unless the team is good. WWE also doesn't have to worry about giant insane wrestler contracts or building stadiums.

So as an investment, I think the WWE is pretty solid. I still find their main event perplexing.
 
I know nothing about how their stocks/investments worked, so I figured Keller would know what he was talking about. Looks like that may not be the case.
 
What is the deal with Ziggler morphing into Shawn Micheals more and more each day? I swear there were a few times last night where it looked just like vintage Micheals in the ring against KO. 

 
Owens' matches have stolen the show at both PPVs this year. I love how he randomly starts talking shit to Michael Cole during his matches.

Styles vs Jericho was decent. They can look amazing together, and then all of a sudden they get crossed up or lose their timing. It's happened in all their matches now, I think. 

 
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I'm cancelling my sub. fuck this shit. They have no credible challenge but brock against roman they way they have built him up. I'm not going to support him against this shit. Someone wake me up once Kevin owens or ambrose takes the title off him.

 
4thHorseman said:
I know nothing about how their stocks/investments worked, so I figured Keller would know what he was talking about. Looks like that may not be the case.
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No worries, dude. Keller definitely has some insight into the biz, or else he wouldn't have been around for three decades.

That said, he's like a lot of dirt sheets - a carnival barker that's going to satisfy his audience (to keep them enrapt, subscribing, and recommending). He's examining the wrestling side of a media conglomerate, which is what WWE really is.

I would love to look at their financials deeply to see which fans/viewers actually contribute the most financially. If you could see the average monthly expenditure for, say, a fan like me and compared it to the average small child. Me? I give them $120/year in subscription fees, and probably spend - at best - $200-250 per year on live event tickets and merch. $50 last year for two NXT tickets, about $60 in merch at the show...and probably another $85 on wwe.com merch (but that was sale/clearance stuff. my one Daniel Bryan shirt was $5).

The small child is already two tickets instead of one (parent/guardian), and I suspect far more likely to buy action figures, video games, t-shirts, foam whatever-the-fucks (fingers? unicorn horns?) and so on.

If they had a choice to hand pick their customers, would they fill the arena with someone like me, who buys merch at maybe 1 out of ever 3-4 live WWE events I go to? Or lil' Sally, who demands the asuka mask, new day horn, who buys the program, etc etc?

I suspect (but am willing to be wrong) that kids are FAR BIGGER profit centers as consumers than you or I am. So, you cater to them.

Now, that all having been said, that explains Cena. I'm not sure it explains Reigns. I can't figure that out.

 
pitfallharry219 said:
Owens' matches have stolen the show at both PPVs this year. I love how he randomly starts talking shit to Michael Cole during his matches.

Styles vs Jericho was decent. They can look amazing together, and then all of a sudden they get crossed up or lose their timing. It's happened in all their matches now, I think.
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best part of the match jericho called him a stupid son of a bitch.

 
I thought the best trash talk last night was Owens to Ziggler "Your hometown likes me more than you!"

What are the odds that the Vincent J McMahon award is legit and not just a made up something to give to one of the Authority members?

 
ProfessorStotch said:
I thought the best trash talk last night was Owens to Ziggler "Your hometown likes me more than you!"

What are the odds that the Vincent J McMahon award is legit and not just a made up something to give to one of the Authority members?
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That thing has "we made this for Reigns to destroy it" written all over it. So yes, it's going to an Authority member but no it won't make it out of that arena in one piece.

I'll call it mildly successful though, in that I'm a little bit interested to watch Raw tonight just to see how hamfistedly they handle it.
 
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ProfessorStotch said:
I thought the best trash talk last night was Owens to Ziggler "Your hometown likes me more than you!"
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Came to post the same thing. That Owens is a thing a of beauty.

And I'm guessing they're going full on face turn for New Day after last night?

 
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