The Jerry "The King" Lawler Wrestling Topic

Like myke said, there really is no right answer to the Benoit issue. People are going to be upset either way. Keep him, you piss of the people who see him as nothing but a murderer. Cut him, and you piss off the wrestling fans who *can* seperate his life from his in-ring work.

As mentioned on the previous page, though, Benoit has been such a HUGE part of WWE history that, in many cases, it's too tough to omit him entirely. You've already brought up great examples... Jericho and Orton. Surely at least Orton will have a DVD at some point. I hate to say it, but Benoit, and the way Cena went down, are probably the only reasons we don't have one already. One title win was against a man you don't want to show, and the other was simply handed to him? Oh yeah, that helps the DVD.

It really struck me the other night when they showed that 'Greatest Raw Superstars' image, and Benoit wasn't there. Not that I ever expected him to be, but it's tough to think about. Had that horrible tragedy not occurred, there is no way Benoit wouldn't have been in that picture.

Point is, there is no precedent for this. Wrestlers have had issues, sure, but NOTHING like this. Plus, it's not as if Benoit was a lower level talent, either. Terrible example, but if, devil's advocate, someone like Scotty 2 Hotty committed the crime that Benoit did, it wouldn't effect anything. It's the fact that MAJOR events contained him. You're going to pretend that he never won the Royal Rumble going in at number 1? You're going to pretend that Wrestlemania 20, 'the biggest one of all', didn't happen? There is no right, or easy, answer to any of this. To erase Benoit would mean, at the very least, erasing a huge part late 2003/early 2004. Not bits and pieces, mind you, but the ENTIRE time period.

My guess is that they'll just let things be for a while, and see what happens. DVDs that we should get, like Jericho and Orton, will fall to the wayside. Wrestlemania 20 won't be printed on DVD again for, at the very least, a decade. The Rumble set will be a freebie, since the original set was unedited, so they can justify it with that. On that note, wasn't there a SummerSlam set that got pushed back because of the Benoit issue?

The only thing they can do is wait. Remember, it's business sense, but also bear in mind that the people making these decisions and DVDs also KNEW Chris Benoit and his family. How would they feel cutting together a DVD with him in it? This is all just going to take time.
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']Hmm ok my 4th post now... Just got done watching Turning Point a little while ago and caught up with the thread. Everyone seems to be pleased with Joe's shoot.. I'm actually ambivalent.

Sure.. he's right, Hall sucks. He's right, Nash is probably better as an on-air personality... or not on air at all... but making enemies with the boss simply is not going to help him win any battles.

And he's also wrong about TNA not pushing young guys. I mean look at the main event. Sure.. you've got a bunch of ex-WWE guys, but you also have AJ and Joe, and isn't that the whole point? Old timers give the rub to new guys? Another example: Team 3D/Divine vs. Lethal/MCMG.. pretty good match that did everything it was supposed to. Here's another one.. Christian/Roode vs. Booker/Kaz. Kaz has been given a major push lately.. Has Joe not noticed that?

I think he's just frustrated that he's not where Angle is...[/quote]

Hey don't group me in with them. I think Joe's a fucking idiot, always have actually, and this just confirms that belief all the more. If Joe were smart he'd cut his losses and head to Japan right now.

I agree with your other points though, Joe is indeed just jealous of Kurt coming in and taking Joe's spot.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']So what? Why does that suddenly give him the right to throw out not-very-thinly-veiled comments towards Angle (who has had great matches and put people over in TNA) and Nash (who...kinda did that)?

It's Hall's screwup, and that does not give him the right to take it out on other guys, just because they got more "wins" over Joe than vice versa. I think Joe's a mark for himself, like Bret Hart. Believing his own bullshit, thinking he "deserves" the belt. Thinking that it matters, and throwing a temper tantrum because the bad timing (and good fortune) of Angle's arrival took his "spot."

Cry me a fuckin' river, and forget that you get a great paycheck. If you want accolades, go earn fuck-all on the indy circuit in front of 50 fans a night. If you want "big time," shut up and wait your turn.

Yes, what Hall did was classless. What does it have to do with Nash and Angle?[/QUOTE]
Agreed.

I think of Joe differently now, and the bolded portion of your quote was exactly what came out of my mouth when I finally saw his shoot promo.

Joe had some valid points, but they were buried deep under self-indulgences and unwarranted lashings-out towards Nash and Angle (
 
[quote name='mykevermin']What's the summerslam triple pack?[/QUOTE]
A Circuit City-exclusive collection with Summerslams 2004-2006 - Benoit was just removed from all of the packaging with his name and face on it.
 
TNA taping spoilers.....

So it turns out that on next week's Impact we find out that Petey Williams gets the World Title shot....... good god let's hope someone informs him NOT to use the Canadian Destroyer on Kurt.
 
[quote name='Demolition Man']TNA taping spoilers.....

So it turns out that on next week's Impact we find out that Petey Williams gets the World Title shot....... good god let's hope someone informs him NOT to use the Canadian Destroyer on Kurt.
[/QUOTE]
What the fuck?

Who gets the Tag and X shot?

And who gets shitcanned?
 
Uh.

I wonder how they'll write a storyline which will revolve around the firing.
 
[quote name='JaytheGamefan']ROH is getting yet another retail store DVD run - From ROHWrestling.com -
Excellent prices for the sets, and both sets' match listings are solid. I'm glad that TNA's DVD deal didn't restrict ROH from putting guys under a TNA contract on their national releases, which did affect the match lineups for other DVDs, most notably, Hardcore Homecoming: November Reign.[/quote]
I'm quite dishearted at the lack of interest in these DVDs. These days it seems like unless the name of the DVD starts with WWE or TNA, there is no interest to be had by the majority of people, regardless of the quality of the wrestling on the DVD themselves.

______________________________________

I guess Daniels is either going back to ROH or this is going to lead into something else for him.
 
[quote name='JaytheGamefan']A Circuit City-exclusive collection with Summerslams 2004-2006 - Benoit was just removed from all of the packaging with his name and face on it.[/QUOTE]

But his matches were included in the videos themselves, I hope? Otherwise SS 2004 will not have a main event!
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']I'm quite dishearted at the lack of interest in these DVDs. These days it seems like unless the name of the DVD starts with WWE or TNA, there is no interest to be had by the majority of people, regardless of the quality of the wrestling on the DVD themselves.[/quote]

ROH cannot get by on word-of-mouth alone. They need some kind of marketing, other than their fans.

Not putting down the product, at all, far from it... I'm not done watching Man Up, but what I've seen so far is fantastic stuff. But limited touring and no TV to speak of isn't going to give them "mindshare" when people think about wrestling. They need something, even if it's a monthly free TV show to showcase the talent. Hell, I'm still lost when it comes to some of the talent here.
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']I'm quite dishearted at the lack of interest in these DVDs. These days it seems like unless the name of the DVD starts with WWE or TNA, there is no interest to be had by the majority of people, regardless of the quality of the wrestling on the DVD themselves.[/QUOTE]

Ah, shaddup. It's not a lack of interest in the group or promotion, but what am I supposed to say about their video distribution? It's going to fall on its ass the same way the Ringmasters Series did, because they've reached market saturation, and are using the names and images of "WWE and TNA" guys to sell their product to those who don't know about ROH.

There's a limited market in workrate-based wrestling, I'm afraid. I enjoy it, but recognize its limited appeal. ROH is doing some things correctly, and others (such as this) aren't going to go well for them.

You seem to live in a world where, if we aren't gushing over everything ROH, we must hate the promotion. You're like that fat pig who was almost in tears at an ROH show who yelled back at some fans (chanting dumbass fan things - whod'a thunk it at an ROH show?) to "go watch your WWE crap!"


Brak, I somewhat agree about Eric Young. It reminds me of when Steve Corino was booked in an ROH main event 6-man tag and missed the show (IIRC, he had a legit reason, but no matter)...they replaced him with Jimmy Jacobs (back in his "tiny bruiser brody" days), after he'd already wrestled. It was a mistake and a letdown to bring out the "goofy" gimmick for such a spot. I hope that, in TNA's case, it leads to the end of the "perpetually scared to death" Eric Young dork-ass gimmick. I think there's a greater chance of Razor Ramon wining the WWE title from Randy Orton next week, however.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Ah, shaddup. It's not a lack of interest in the group or promotion, but what am I supposed to say about their video distribution? It's going to fall on its ass the same way the Ringmasters Series did, because they've reached market saturation, and are using the names and images of "WWE and TNA" guys to sell their product to those who don't know about ROH.

There's a limited market in workrate-based wrestling, I'm afraid. I enjoy it, but recognize its limited appeal. ROH is doing some things correctly, and others (such as this) aren't going to go well for them.

You seem to live in a world where, if we aren't gushing over everything ROH, we must hate the promotion. You're like that fat pig who was almost in tears at an ROH show who yelled back at some fans (chanting dumbass fan things - whod'a thunk it at an ROH show?) to "go watch your WWE crap!"[/quote]
Temper, temper Mr. Dre. There is almost always no response/discussion to any ROH, PWG, NOAH, or any other companies around the world short of WWE/TNA and that's what I find disheartening. Just look at the return of Kobashi posting by Jay.

Anyway, I wasn't looking for a gushing response. Just looking for a response/discussion, just like the thing Joe. The key thought that came to mind is how HBK/HH would react to Joe in the WWE and his comments but you seemed to blast me through some kind of weird interpretation of my post where I somehow I said Joe was in the right when I never did. I just wanted your thoughts on how hierarchy in WWE would respond to the comments on Nash/Hall since one member of the klique is essentially married to the boss' daughter.

[quote name='Brak']Stop blowing yourself, Zen.[/quote]
Is that an invitation? ;)
 
[quote name='mykevermin']But his matches were included in the videos themselves, I hope? Otherwise SS 2004 will not have a main event![/QUOTE]
Yes, they kept his matches intact, just omitted them from being mentioned on the packaging - that's what I hope WWE does for future shows with Benoit on them. As for the TNA spoilers...
I cannot wait for Steiner to get his X title shot. If Lethal's still champion, he can go on and on about beating Savage, leading to Lethal referencing more legendary moments that didn't happen in this company, and then Steiner can destroy him in three minutes, winning with a top rope Frankensteiner, to become the X division champion.

Daniels being "fired" to become Curry Man would be amusing, I just hope they don't make him change his name to something they'd own. I'm not sure how I feel about Tenay going "OH WE KNOW WHO THIS IS!" if/when they do this.

Steiner winning the X title shot - WIN WIN WIN WIN WIN WIN!
BG James winning the tag title shot - eh, I hope Kip trades in his half of the tag title shot to Awesome Kong to get a shot at the title he seemingly really wants in TNA - the knockouts title.
Petey winning the world title shot - not looking forward to the match, but this could lead to another Mike Tenay speech about Petey being this brave young fellow fighting against the odds, so I'm sure it'll be amusing. I guess Petey really impressed management with his muscle flex at the PPV.

God, I love that TNA WORLD TITLE SHOTS are now game show fodder, and that instead of just having the guy who quits get the "Your fired" case, they go through MORE CONVOLUTED BULLSHIT for the pink slip briefcase.

Now, in all fairness regarding the Kobashi return not getting much love, I didn't even post about it despite posting the match here. Why? Because I haven't watched it. I plan on watching it later tonight, since I wanted to first watch the TNA PPV before watching something really emotion-filled like Kobashi's return.

There's definitely a limited audience for workrate-centric wrestling - Gabe Sapolsky is aware of that, and has worked around it by making baby steps to expand ROH's audience. They had a national DVD deal before, but nixed it when they realized they could make more by doing it themselves. They did PPVs in an effort to expose more people to their product and attract new buyers of their DVDs.

Now they've got another DVD deal in place to try and expand their audience even further - unlike an audience-expanding deal like TNA's horrid FSN deal that cost them $30,000 a week, ROH is going with smart, low-risk expansion ideas that don't cost them much money, so they even if they completely bomb (which doesn't seem to be the case with the PPVs), they aren't sunk.

The new DVD deal seems to be a smart one for them, as they're showcasing the well-known stars that have worked with ROH in an effort to show that they aren't just a no-name indy - they're a company that has gotten some legends to support them for an extended period of time, and given the stars of today a showcase before they were stars. They're giving potentially new viewers a chance to see faces they're familiar with to make them care about the ones on the DVD they aren't familiar with. The low price is another smart move, as there's a lot of good content packed onto the discs, and if ROH can carve a niche out for itself as THE promotion for wrestling fans on a budget, that's good for them.
 
[quote name='Zenithian Legend']Hey don't group me in with them. I think Joe's a fucking idiot, always have actually, and this just confirms that belief all the more. If Joe were smart he'd cut his losses and head to Japan right now.

I agree with your other points though, Joe is indeed just jealous of Kurt coming in and taking Joe's spot.[/quote]

Thanks for actually responding to my post instead of getting pissed off that I posted 4 in a row. (I know it was lame but is it really that big of a deal?) :rofl:

And I wasn't grouping you in.. it just seemed like the general concensus. That's not to say I didn't like the shoot. I did.. I just think it did harm as well as good.. for the company and for Joe personally.. TNA is in no way perfect.. but one thing they're actually doing right is mixing in old and new talent.. that's really the only reason I watch. I actually like the spotty wrestlers and seeing them get pushed against each other and against the big name WWE guys is pretty entertaining to me..
 
[quote name='mykevermin']When did you post about that?[/quote]
I said...

At the same time, should Joe leave TNA, the odds of him being treated well in WWE are now in doubt, especially since Nash, Hall, HBK, and Triple H are known to all ride together and with Joe shitting all over Hall and Nash, I wonder how Michaels and Hunter are taking it and how the politics in the WWE would work against him.
Click to expand...

Also could you elaborate when you say "they've reached market saturation."

[quote name='mykevermin']Ah, shaddup. It's not a lack of interest in the group or promotion, but what am I supposed to say about their video distribution? It's going to fall on its ass the same way the Ringmasters Series did, because they've reached market saturation, and are using the names and images of "WWE and TNA" guys to sell their product to those who don't know about ROH.[/quote]
 
Phrostbyte, I wasn't pissed off by you posting four times in a row, just slightly annoyed by it. Hell, the amount of mockery of Tenay in that post outnumbered anything I said about you by at least a 30:1 ratio.

As for ROH "not being able to get by" just relying on their existing fanbase, well, they, unlike TNA, and most other wrestling organizations, actually turns a profit, so they clearly can just get by with their existing fans, and are simply trying to expand their fanbase. They don't need to do it, but they're trying to do it in a slow, smart manner, which is great in the long-run.
 
Dave Prazak just posted a crapload of Man Up quotes in Prowrestling.com forums.

The PPV replays tonight on iN DEMAND. Hype below!

--

The ROH "Man Up" pay-per-view will replay on iN DEMAND at 9pm TONIGHT (Tuesday night) for just $14.95. Everyone is raving about the first and last LADDER WAR in ROH history as Jay & Mark Briscoe take on Kevin Steen & El Generico for the ROH World Tag Team Titles. It is a match so dangerous that ROH officials have BANNED it from ever happening in a ROH ring again.

"Man Up" will also replay on The DISH Network's All Day Ticket tomorrow, December 5th. You can watch a free preview and teaser at ROHvideos.com. Don't take our word for it, look at what the critics and fans are saying after watching ROH "Man Up" on PPV:

"Ring Of Honor's third PPV, "Man Up"....was from a wrestling standpoint, up there with the best PPVs of all time. Seriously." - Dave Meltzer, 12/3/07 Wrestling Observer Newsletter

"In terms of the number of great individual matches, this was easily the best PPV of the year." - J.D. Dunn, 411mania.com

"After hearing about this PPV for months, it was exciting to finally see if ROH could live up to the hype, and they certainly delivered. Specifically, the Briscoes vs. Steen & Generico exceeded months of hype to deliver the tag match of the year and a top five contender for overall match of the year....This might have cemented Briscoes vs. Steen & Generico as feud of the year in pro wrestling." - James Caldwell, PWTorch.com

"Order the Ring Of Honor pay-per-view. Order it. Order it. Order it....Morishima vs. Danielson is incredible to watch....I can't endorse this one enough....I really think it's worth checking out" - Buck Woodward, PWInsiderelite.com hotline.

"(10.0)....I only own two ROH DVDs that received rave reviews here at the Torch, so I don't know much about the promotion or the wrestlers, but with shows like this, ROH is quickly becoming my favorite promotion....Everyone on this show busted their ass in the ring, the booking made sense and pro wrestling was the focus. I can't even recall the last time a WWE or TNA PPV could make that same claim." - Jason Hadden, PWTorch.com

"Another stellar effort from ROH. An easy candidate for PPV of the year and the ladder war will be in my top-three matches of the year vote." - Jody Jewers, WrestlingObserver.com

"(9.0)....Well worth the $15!" - Justin Ballard, PWTorch.com

"This was a fantastic show....I really couldn't pick a worst match as I don't think any of them deserved that....Danielson and Morishima was fantastic and may be my new pick for match of the year." - Dave Mugrave, WrestlingObserver.com

"(9.0) Having heavily enjoyed "Driven," I didn't hesitate at all to order this PPV the first day it became available, and once again, ROH did not disappoint....To me, this is great stuff that I'd take over a leprechaun running through an imaginary wall any day of the week." - Ern Smith, PWTorch.com

"ROH is getting more polished with each PPV. It felt even MORE like a major PPV show. It's a shame it's gotten the least hype of the three PPVs so far because it's the best one so far....Briscoes and Steen/Generico put on one of the best ladder matches I've seen in years. It got to the point that after so many ladder matches over the years that I thought I'd never see anything new again. ROH and these 4 proved me wrong. It's worth ****3/4." - Bill Treadway, WrestlingObserver.com

"You know you've seen a good show when the "worst" match is 3 stars or better." - Ray Begley, WrestlingObserver.com

"Ring of Honor's "Man Up" is as close as you can get to a perfect Pay Per View. That is not a lie, or an exaggeration from a so called "ROHbot" fan. That is the unmitigated truth. The two hours of wrestling flew by like it was nothing and it was filled with near non-stop action. This show had matches that started out very good and only became better as the matches went on. There were very few if any valleys and almost a constant run of peaks. Not many PPVs have such a ferocious pace as this one, but this was also ROH's best PPV in terms of production, video and audio quality." - Ari Berenstein, 411mania.com

"(10.0): Wow. This was the best PPV I've ever seen, next to WrestleMania 17." - Andrew, PWTorch.com

"(9.5)....My words can't even do this PPV justice. Just see it." - Glenn Crocker, PWTorch.com

"Having seen two ROH cards in person and one PPV, ROH has hands down the best PPVs in the wrestling industry. Their wrestlers may not be as famous as those in the WWE or TNA, but the PPV and performers are far better." - Hank Schaller, PWTorch.com

The fans and critics have spoken. We can't make this stuff up. Watch ROH "Man Up" TONIGHT at 9pm on iN DEMAND. Check your local listings for all the info!!!
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']I said...[/quote]

Joe would get in a lot more trouble for being a mark for himself and thinking he deserves a "spot" or position on the WWE roster; you're giving the "klique" power when it's just Triple H anymore. I don't think they care much about what is said about Nash, and Nash (or the others) may very well agree with the stuff Joe said about Nash.

Does it even matter? Anyone joining the WWE to "wrestle" is on a fool's errand. You should only join the WWE if you want to earn a sizable paycheck, and are fully prepared to check your dignity at the door. They don't do "wrestling." You know that. Remember how much fun London and Spanky were to watch in ROH? Who gives a shit about them in WWE at any point? Why should we? It's the "McMahon feuds with people and the occasional 3 minute bullshit match" show.

There are segments to enjoy on WWE programming, but it's all mired so deep in crap that I can't even enjoy Finaly. The shilleghleigh bullshit is too much. But I'm sure he doesn't care, and he earns good money.

Joe would die in WWE quicker than Frankie Kazarian. He's a wrestler, not a sports entertainer. Worse for him, he believes his own hype. His "shoot" is the least of his concerns. I do think he'll end up in WWE at some point in his career, but you'd be a fool to think you'd see an enjoyable match out of him. Care to list any 5-star CM Punk matches from the past 9 months?

Also could you elaborate when you say "they've reached market saturation."
Click to expand...

Simply this: they're hoping for spontaneous purchases of $15 videos. People don't do that in sufficient numbers. Their market saturation is their fanbase. People who go to ROH shows buy ROH videos. They're not going to reach anyone else with this business deal, because people will pass up on it.

Look at your fawning, gasping list of praise for "Man Up." Who is making the praise? Wrestling nerd sites. Smart marks. Guys who spend their time doling out arbitrary star ratings to matches. People who know the product and follow it. The choir is singing back to the preacher is all.

If ROH wants to expand, they need to do two things: one expensive, and one difficult.

1) Increase production costs. A $15 dvd that looks like it took place in a smoky bingo hall is not going to impress casual observers. You can disagree, but you're still wrong. People want clean video and clean audio. ROH uses shitty cameras, poor lighting, and their audio/effects are less impressive than what ECW used over a decade ago. I could do a better job, single handedly, using iMovie, let alone Final Cut Pro. I know, I know, the grittiness adds a level of authenticity to the product, just like CBGB was a cooler place to see The Ramones than at the 15,000 seat arena. But more people went to the Arena shows, and more would go (irrespective of capacity). The lack of polish in these videos (and their announcers are fucking awful - they make a combination of Don West and Jerry Lawler seem enticing by comparison) compounds with the second problem.

2) Explain the philosophy of ROH to people. It's wrestling as art, as sport, as something closer to "real" than the alternatives. Cut more interviews to get into the personas of the promotion. Treat it like a sports program. Use a black backdrop/ROH backdrop for promos/interviews/backstage stuff, because this "filmed on the spur of the moment in the barn by the arena" look so much of this has is embarrassing. I don't think the casual fan will be turned on to ROH unless they know what it is and that it's what they're looking for ahead of time. Until ROH can concisely explain their philosophy of the business and make that appealing to casual fans, they'll never have the level of respect and recognition that ECW had.

The simple question they need to address to the casual fan is this: what is ROH and why should I be interested?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Care to list any 5-star CM Punk matches from the past 9 months?[/quote]
I'd say Punk/Henry was damn close. I'll get back to you in the morning with a more serious response since I'm just whacked.

Night.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Joe would get in a lot more trouble for being a mark for himself and thinking he deserves a "spot" or position on the WWE roster; you're giving the "klique" power when it's just Triple H anymore. I don't think they care much about what is said about Nash, and Nash (or the others) may very well agree with the stuff Joe said about Nash.[/quote]
I'm not sure. I think the comments about "superstars" could technically hit a nerve with HHH and could hurt any kind of WWE run in the same manner that RVD suffered during his WWE run because after further consideration, the comments went beyond the klique and shit more on a variety of wrestler than any specific person. If HHH feels he fits those comments, could he possibly hold a grudge?

Does it even matter? Anyone joining the WWE to "wrestle" is on a fool's errand. You should only join the WWE if you want to earn a sizable paycheck, and are fully prepared to check your dignity at the door. They don't do "wrestling." You know that. Remember how much fun London and Spanky were to watch in ROH? Who gives a shit about them in WWE at any point? Why should we? It's the "McMahon feuds with people and the occasional 3 minute bullshit match" show.

There are segments to enjoy on WWE programming, but it's all mired so deep in crap that I can't even enjoy Finaly. The shilleghleigh bullshit is too much. But I'm sure he doesn't care, and he earns good money.

Joe would die in WWE quicker than Frankie Kazarian. He's a wrestler, not a sports entertainer. Worse for him, he believes his own hype. His "shoot" is the least of his concerns. I do think he'll end up in WWE at some point in his career, but you'd be a fool to think you'd see an enjoyable match out of him. Care to list any 5-star CM Punk matches from the past 9 months?
Click to expand...
True. Punk hasn't had any 5-star matches in the past 9 months but however, the situation for him is quite different than someone like Kazarian/London/Kendrick.

The way I see it, the WWE is grooming Punk to be one of their next big breakout stars, the same way they're grooming Jeff Hardy on RAW and MVP on Smackdown. The difference between Punk and the other two is that while Hardy and MVP are getting rubs from Triple H and Benoit, Punk hasn't gotten a rub from anyone.

In fact, on the contrary, Punk has been the one giving rubs to Morrison, The Miz, Big Daddy V, and now seemingly Shelton Benjamin. What's that say about Punk? Does he not need a rub? Or are they using him to technically train the other guys who are still somewhat green(which he has done before when he was running the ROH school)?

Personally, I think they're saving Punk until later down the line when they move him to Smackdown/Raw and he gets to mingle with the bigger stars and put on more meaningful matches with more experienced workers. Until then, he fits his own role perfectly. He got a subtle nod at the Survivor Series a couple of years ago when he was matched up with The Hardys and DX and he's finally working with Kane. But other than that, when he has really been given the chance to go at it with the top tier of the WWE? To me, it's all just a part of the grooming process, which is something the WWE has been severely lacking for years.

Now how does this fit with Joe? If Joe is entirely welcome in the WWE and his comments haven't done anything to hurt his reputation there, I think that Joe can completely fit in the WWE. He'll have to tone his style down, true, but I'm sure he'll be able to bust out his stiff strikes during the big matches (Even Punk gets to throw a couple of stiff kicks during the course of his matches). He won't have the same role as Punk since Joe is a known face on TNA and Spike TV and Punk was a nobody when he came into the WWE. It'll be like when Monty Brown came into the WWE. He didn't get put through development. Neither will Joe. Of course Joe will have to pay his dues, but during the Wrestlemanias and other big shows, I'm sure he'll be able to bust out.

The other thing I have to take into consideration is the fact of why Joe would choose TNA over the WWE. He probably believed when he signed with the company that he would get on TV and he would be used properly instead of basically wrestling for money as you put it. Otherwise, why wouldn't he have picked the WWE in the first place? I'm sure he would have gotten more out of the 'E'. Most likely the goals/vision of the company over the course of Joe's run changed and it's left Joe angry because what he imagined TNA would be didn't exactly pan out and the company just turned into a mini-WWE. Again, not defending Joe. Simply attempting to discuss his rationale. Because if that was what was going to happen, why shouldn't he have just signed on with the WWE in the first place?

Simply this: they're hoping for spontaneous purchases of $15 videos. People don't do that in sufficient numbers. Their market saturation is their fanbase. People who go to ROH shows buy ROH videos. They're not going to reach anyone else with this business deal, because people will pass up on it.

Look at your fawning, gasping list of praise for "Man Up." Who is making the praise? Wrestling nerd sites. Smart marks. Guys who spend their time doling out arbitrary star ratings to matches. People who know the product and follow it. The choir is singing back to the preacher is all.

If ROH wants to expand, they need to do two things: one expensive, and one difficult.

1) Increase production costs. A $15 dvd that looks like it took place in a smoky bingo hall is not going to impress casual observers. You can disagree, but you're still wrong. People want clean video and clean audio. ROH uses shitty cameras, poor lighting, and their audio/effects are less impressive than what ECW used over a decade ago. I could do a better job, single handedly, using iMovie, let alone Final Cut Pro. I know, I know, the grittiness adds a level of authenticity to the product, just like CBGB was a cooler place to see The Ramones than at the 15,000 seat arena. But more people went to the Arena shows, and more would go (irrespective of capacity). The lack of polish in these videos (and their announcers are fucking awful - they make a combination of Don West and Jerry Lawler seem enticing by comparison) compounds with the second problem.

2) Explain the philosophy of ROH to people. It's wrestling as art, as sport, as something closer to "real" than the alternatives. Cut more interviews to get into the personas of the promotion. Treat it like a sports program. Use a black backdrop/ROH backdrop for promos/interviews/backstage stuff, because this "filmed on the spur of the moment in the barn by the arena" look so much of this has is embarrassing. I don't think the casual fan will be turned on to ROH unless they know what it is and that it's what they're looking for ahead of time. Until ROH can concisely explain their philosophy of the business and make that appealing to casual fans, they'll never have the level of respect and recognition that ECW had.

The simple question they need to address to the casual fan is this: what is ROH and why should I be interested?
Click to expand...

I've always said that ROH production has been shitty. I believe I even complained about the commentary on the Driven PPV. Audio was much more inproved on the Man Up. Anyway, I understand the majority of what you're talking about I agree with you.

Going back to my 'disheartened' comments though, I want take a moment to speak my mind. When I use the internet, I use it as a tool to find new and interesting things to expand my horizons whether it be wrestling, music (just look at my mix CD thread where I gave everyone an blank check on whatever music people wanted to suggest), movies, and whatever else.

I find it disheartening that people would rather use the internet to try and reinforce what they already know instead of using the net to and seek out new and different things. The idea had nothing to do with RoH, even though that was the catalyst.

That is specifically what I found disheartening.

It's not that no one had anything to say about RoH and I started to whine about it. It's that no one has anything to say about ANY kind of wrestling that is not WWE/TNA even if they are given the opportunity to check out whatever else for free. I've almost never seen any kind of discussion over the majority of the matches Jay is kind enough to throw up. It doesn't make me angry. It just makes me feel like people are close minded in general. Not attacking anyone. Just talking.
 
I don't think HHH is as petty as you make him out to be, and making Joe's comments far more harmful than they were. Anyone who is not a "superstar" makes claims like this. Shane Douglas did a helluva better job at conveying this same attitude over a decade ago. Back then the klique did matter (though Hunter had little pull at the time).

Anyway, to speak for Triple H, I'm sure that he could care less about what Joe said. Do I believe that TNA doesn't register on WWE's radar? Of course not; of course it does. Do I think they laugh at the mistakes TNA is making, gearing their product as WWE lite, and their pisspoor gimmicks and storylines (and the fact that they're single-handedly killing Abyss for no purpose, as all of his "throw me in glass and tacks and all that shit" matches are 100% forgettable, in setup, execution, and follow-through). Nevertheless, TNA and ECW are roughly equals in the ratings, and even though we *think* WWE hates the ECW show, they do want it to succeed. It would be a huge psychological setback to see TNA beat ECW in the ratings. We will certainly find out tomorrow, won't we?

You're giving Samoa Joe too much credit and TNA too much credit, though, in how much Triple H cares about those hypotheticals of "ooh, how could I bury Joe if he came to WWE?"

Fact is, they'd bury Joe for their "legitimate" reasons. That he probably can't wrestle a 3-minute match that isn't a squash, that he's the kind of self-indulged dude who demands to get his spots in, and we also know he's a bit of a princess when it comes to doing jobs (that's the very reason I think he conveys such legit animosity towards Kurt Angle - he *IS* legitimately angry with Angle because he's laid down for him so much!). One five minute promo on a PPV isn't going to matter at all, IMO. I'm sticking to that.

Also, with regards to Punk, do you really think that Punk is the one giving the rub to Morrison, Miz, Viscera, and Benjamin? :shock: We're just going to disagree on that one, okay? Disagree a lot.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Also, with regards to Punk, do you really think that Punk is the one giving the rub to Morrison, Miz, Viscera, and Benjamin? :shock: We're just going to disagree on that one, okay? Disagree a lot.[/quote]
Why would JBL go off on Morrison and Miz and make them apologize to Punk if Punk wasn't the one giving them the rub?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Simply this: they're hoping for spontaneous purchases of $15 videos. People don't do that in sufficient numbers. Their market saturation is their fanbase. People who go to ROH shows buy ROH videos. They're not going to reach anyone else with this business deal, because people will pass up on it.

Look at your fawning, gasping list of praise for "Man Up." Who is making the praise? Wrestling nerd sites. Smart marks. Guys who spend their time doling out arbitrary star ratings to matches. People who know the product and follow it. The choir is singing back to the preacher is all.

If ROH wants to expand, they need to do two things: one expensive, and one difficult.

1) Increase production costs. A $15 dvd that looks like it took place in a smoky bingo hall is not going to impress casual observers. You can disagree, but you're still wrong. People want clean video and clean audio. ROH uses shitty cameras, poor lighting, and their audio/effects are less impressive than what ECW used over a decade ago. I could do a better job, single handedly, using iMovie, let alone Final Cut Pro. I know, I know, the grittiness adds a level of authenticity to the product, just like CBGB was a cooler place to see The Ramones than at the 15,000 seat arena. But more people went to the Arena shows, and more would go (irrespective of capacity). The lack of polish in these videos (and their announcers are fucking awful - they make a combination of Don West and Jerry Lawler seem enticing by comparison) compounds with the second problem.

2) Explain the philosophy of ROH to people. It's wrestling as art, as sport, as something closer to "real" than the alternatives. Cut more interviews to get into the personas of the promotion. Treat it like a sports program. Use a black backdrop/ROH backdrop for promos/interviews/backstage stuff, because this "filmed on the spur of the moment in the barn by the arena" look so much of this has is embarrassing. I don't think the casual fan will be turned on to ROH unless they know what it is and that it's what they're looking for ahead of time. Until ROH can concisely explain their philosophy of the business and make that appealing to casual fans, they'll never have the level of respect and recognition that ECW had.

The simple question they need to address to the casual fan is this: what is ROH and why should I be interested?[/QUOTE]

I disagree myke.

I think word of mouth is enough for Ring Of Honor. I showed a few of my friends (who are Cena fans/marks) and my Dad (who hasn't watched wrestling since the WWF Attitude boom) a few clips and it not only did it blow them away but they now ask me about when the next PPV is or if they are every going to come to Florida.

Does that mean they will buy every $15 DVDs? No but that is still a few more people who will drop the $15 on the PPV.

ECW's fatal flaw was trying to become to big by grabbing a TV deal and better production. I doubt Gabe is going to walk into the same trap.
 
I was under the impression that that was the result of Morrison and Miz talking too much shit about him when they did their on-air commentary. It was disrespectful and counterproductive to the feud, which is where the problem lied. It wasn't, as far as I could tell, a matter of respect/position on the totem pole.

Let us not forget the set of circumstances that put the belt on Punk to begin with.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I was under the impression that that was the result of Morrison and Miz talking too much shit about him when they did their on-air commentary. It was disrespectful and counterproductive to the feud, which is where the problem lied. It wasn't, as far as I could tell, a matter of respect/position on the totem pole.

Let us not forget the set of circumstances that put the belt on Punk to begin with.[/quote]
It was also for their sloppy workrate against MVP and Hardy. Sorry I didn't clarify.

And true, I understand the circumstances, but did that mean that Punk wasn't ever going to get the belt? Of course not. I know you were dead set against believing that Punk would ever get the belt, but Punk was the most over guy in ECW. Eventually he was going to take the belt from Morrison.

Who else could have done it?

Anyway, with Hardy getting the rub from HHH and MVP getting the rub from Benoit, how do you think it is beneficial for Punk to get (not give) the rub from Morrison, The Miz, Burke, Viscera, and Shelton Benjamin? It doesn't make sense.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']ECW's fatal flaw was trying to become to big by grabbing a TV deal and better production. I doubt Gabe is going to walk into the same trap.[/QUOTE]

Only partially true. People tend to gloss over the fact that ECW not only signed a TV deal, but a DUMB tv deal, where there losses were enormous. Could ROH get a better deal? Probably not at this point. Nevertheless, I didn't bring up TV as a necessity for ROH to expand, so that's neither here nor there.

What people neglect to remember is that, unlike ROH, Heyman tried to pay his wrestlers "WWF/WCW" wages so as to keep them from leaving. Not many, but a few Dudleys/Taz types on the roster was more than enough to deplete it. Don't forget that they also traveled far more than they could afford to in the US, while ROH is more reserved in the northeast, with far fewer sojourns to the south and west. They probably won't return to Vegas (or was it SF?), whereas ECW would have. And lost money again.

Nor did I say ROH's fanbase couldn't expand. What I did say was the people who buy ROH DVDs are those who go to ROH shows. They're reaching out to people who aren't interested in their product, and making redundant purchasing decisions for those who are. They tried this once before, and it didn't work then. ROH's situation hasn't changed all that dramatically since then. ROH can gain fans and business, but when I say "market saturation," I was pointing to DVD availability. It's one of the most easily accessible things about the promotion. This move, for them, is redundant.
 
i cant stop watching the kennedy segment from raw...

those "fake" wrestlers were pretty sucky.. they coudnt even get the entrances right..

but i still mark for razor's pyro
 
Can you feel it? Nothing can save you. I’m tougher than bullets so, baby, pray to your savior. I never been shot, but I bet you I’m braver. I’m taking my spot, NGH, I ain’t afraid to be me. Sometimes I find it very hard to be..”Who?”. Me…{The inevitable rise and liberation of NiggyTardust!}

Yo the banana peels are carefully placed! So keep your shell toes carefully laced! The illest NGH got peppered and maced! Now amplify this. Turn up the bass!

Picture me, lampin’ in the company car. Rims like Tibetan prayer wheels. NGH WHT? I’m a star. I cruise the block like a feather back and forth ‘til I land as the song in your ear or the book in your hand. Now the whole fuckin world ‘bout to know who I am. Got your whole system up in my trunk. That ‘dog eat dog’ make my woofers bark: atomic crunk All my trill NGHs know who be bringin da funk. Lees and shell toes like it’s Black History Month. Yo the banana peels are carefully placed! So keep your shell toes carefully laced! The illest NGH got peppered and maced! Now amplify this. Turn up the bass!

Yo the banana peels are carefully placed! So keep your shell toes carefully laced! The illest NGH got peppered and mased! Now amplify this. Turn up the bass!

There was one. Bore witness to the rays of the sun. Synthesized in her own image. Photo negative. Shun. The development of Parliament. The phallic bop gun. Thus, the mother-ship connection spawned the birth of the drum. Ancient drum begat drum. Kingdom go, kingdom come. Ancient sector of the scepter risen up to the Sun. Hidden hand of man begat patented clone of the drum. Boom Bap strapped into a wire, tightly coiled, and re-spun. Trigger sound. Trigger gun. Drum machine. Machine gun. Bodies piled. Carefully filed under beats that were once reprogrammed to become: unplugged concert of
Sun. Every ray with sample clearance. Every two begat one. Boom bop hard as a gun. White cross-trainers, unstrung. Let these suckas know the cost of making Harriet run.
Let the North Star be your guiding post when turned from the sun until knowledge reigns supreme over nearly everyone.


Yo the banana peels are carefully placed! So keep your shell toes carefully laced! The illest NGH got peppered and mased! Now amplify this. Turn up the bass!
Click to expand...

.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']They probably won't return to Vegas (or was it SF?), whereas ECW would have. And lost money again.[/quote]

It was both. They lost money on that venture, which is why they're doing a NYC double-shot weekend.

Nor did I say ROH's fanbase couldn't expand. What I did say was the people who buy ROH DVDs are those who go to ROH shows. They're reaching out to people who aren't interested in their product, and making redundant purchasing decisions for those who are. They tried this once before, and it didn't work then. ROH's situation hasn't changed all that dramatically since then. ROH can gain fans and business, but when I say "market saturation," I was pointing to DVD availability. It's one of the most easily accessible things about the promotion. This move, for them, is redundant.
Click to expand...

I agree that to the majority of the base, these DVDs aren't all that great. However, those new viewers who may have been caught on by RoH through the PPVs may be more interested in picking up the DVDs and I expect commericials to air during the 5th and 6th PPVs respectively (ala how ECW ran commerciails for their own tapes during their wrestling shows).

Do you think this could help sell the DVDs?
 
ROH -needs- to travel. They can't keep relying on NYC to get them over. Exposure is their biggest weakness, as outside of the IWC they're still unheard of.
 
I think RoH's biggest weakness is the perception (perhaps true, perhaps not) that it's a one trick pony. If you asked the average wrestling fan who's heard of RoH what it's about he'd say something along the lines of, "Small guys who wrestle like Japanese guys." My own response would be similar based on what I've seen of guys like Brian Danielson, Morishima, Samoa Joe, C.M. Punk and Homicide. If you don't like puro-style professional wrestling, there's very little in RoH to keep you interested.

If we look at the "Big Three" you see variety. With WCW there was some homegrown talent (Ric Flair, the Steiners, Sting), older WWF names (Nash, Hall, Hogan), a very talented if underutilized Cruiserweight division and a *few* genuinely intriguing gimmicks/angles (nWo vs. WCW is the only big one that springs to mind, maybe Goldberg's streak).

WWF had some hot new names (Austin, Rock), edgy storylines (Vince turning heel after "screwing Bret Hart"), name recognition (Wrestlemania) and the perception of being the #1 wrestling organization on the planet.

ECW had crazy matches, some great interviews (Cactus Jack, Shane Douglas, Taz), wrestlers who could (and did) work Japanese styles (Benoit, Malenko) and a willingness to talk shit about other wrestling companies during a time when the big two never even mentioned the other's existance.

RoH has head-dropping, strong-style puro matches. If you don't like that, well, it's not really for you.

The tragedy of it all is that if RoH tries to "diversify" and start doing comedy matches or gimmick matches, their fanbase is going to shit all over them and start chanting "You sold out" like a bunch of crybabies. I think RoH has painted themselves into a corner. I don't really see a good way for them to expand without alienating the puro-snob crowd they've already attracted.

In other news, I've decided to get the Royal Rumble packs individually. I really can't justify dropping $160 at once on wrestling DVDs. 34.99 x 4 spread over a couple months is significantly more palatable.
 
[quote name='Halo05']The tragedy of it all is that if RoH tries to "diversify" and start doing comedy matches or gimmick matches, their fanbase is going to shit all over them and start chanting "You sold out" like a bunch of crybabies. I think RoH has painted themselves into a corner. I don't really see a good way for them to expand without alienating the puro-snob crowd they've already attracted.[/quote]

I should point out that the puro-snob crowd has been open to comedy on a regular basis, whether it was with Colt Cabana, Delirious, Larry Sweeney (and the amazingly hilarious Bobby Dempsey skits), and now the forthcoming Human Tornado.

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMNV8PYxKn4[/MEDIA]
 
[quote name='Halo05']ECW had crazy matches, some great interviews (Cactus Jack, Shane Douglas, Taz), wrestlers who could (and did) work Japanese styles (Benoit, Malenko) and a willingness to talk shit about other wrestling companies during a time when the big two never even mentioned the other's existance.[/QUOTE]

What?

Did you forget the whole thing back in 96-97 where Sandman threw a beer in some wrestlers face (with Vince saying they were wrestlers from an upcoming promotion) and ECW "invading" Raw?
 
[quote name='Halo05']RoH has head-dropping, strong-style puro matches. If you don't like that, well, it's not really for you.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, who doesn't like that?
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Honestly, who doesn't like that?[/QUOTE]


:raises hand: I don't hate Puro styled matches but i don't jizz all over myself because of them either. Its fun to watch sometimes but its not something i feel like i'm missing out on if i miss it. Actually one of my least favorite things is when their is a huge chain of wrestling moves where the 2 wrestlers continously one up each other and then it ends in a face off.... :Yawn: I think its overrated.

side note: I havent watched any ROH since Colt left... and i don't feel like i've missed out on anything.
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']I should point out that the puro-snob crowd has been open to comedy on a regular basis, whether it was with Colt Cabana, Delirious, Larry Sweeney (and the amazingly hilarious Bobby Dempsey skits), and now the forthcoming Human Tornado.
[/QUOTE]

I believe you 100%, but that's something that I honestly didn't know and all things considered, I know more about wrestling than the average person. It thrills me that the RoH crowd is more open minded than I gave them credit for, perhaps their future isn't as grim as I initially believed when I sat down and thought about it.

I still don't see them rising above TNA anytime soon but the gap could narrow if more wrestlers continue to be disenchanted with the way TNA seems to be headed. That being said, if AJ ever jumps to RoH, I'll start paying way more attention to their product.
 
[quote name='onetrackmind']:raises hand: I don't hate Puro styled matches but i don't jizz all over myself because of them either. Its fun to watch sometimes but its not something i feel like i'm missing out on if i miss it. Actually one of my least favorite things is when their is a huge chain of wrestling moves where the 2 wrestlers continously one up each other and then it ends in a face off.... :Yawn: I think its overrated.

side note: I havent watched any ROH since Colt left... and i don't feel like i've missed out on anything.[/QUOTE]

I haven't seen a face off on either of the last PPVs.

Although they do usually follow the formula of crazy ass move, pinfall, crazy ass move by the other guy, pinfall, repeat 3-5 times (sprinkle in some chops) then a very painful looking move for the win.
 
[quote name='Halo05']In other news, I've decided to get the Royal Rumble packs individually. I really can't justify dropping $160 at once on wrestling DVDs. 34.99 x 4 spread over a couple months is significantly more palatable.[/QUOTE]Maybe I'm too late with this, but just in case... you can get the full Rumble Anthology set for $141.29 shipped, straight from WWE shop zone, with the coupon code "GIVEME." There MIGHT be sales tax on that, but I'm not sure. Not sure if that would push you towards dropping a benjamin plus, but you might as well be aware of that option!
 
For those wondering what SD's main event is, it's
Kane vs. Edge. Supposedly it's booked since Kane never faced Edge before he was injured

As for Turning Point, at what point in the show did Joe do that rant? I want to check it out on dailymotion, but don't want to search through ones that don't have it.
 
Ooh, that would be tempting. I was stuck looking at Amazon, I had no idea WWE had any left. Thanks a million, off to check it out now.
 
[quote name='onetrackmind']:raises hand: I don't hate Puro styled matches but i don't jizz all over myself because of them either. Its fun to watch sometimes but its not something i feel like i'm missing out on if i miss it. Actually one of my least favorite things is when their is a huge chain of wrestling moves where the 2 wrestlers continously one up each other and then it ends in a face off.... :Yawn: I think its overrated.

side note: I havent watched any ROH since Colt left... and i don't feel like i've missed out on anything.[/quote]
The company seemed to be in a lull after Colt left but after the Death Before Dishonor weekend, things seemed to have picked up again. I still can't wait to catch Tornado. I hope I can see him in NYC.

[quote name='Halo05']I believe you 100%, but that's something that I honestly didn't know and all things considered, I know more about wrestling than the average person. It thrills me that the RoH crowd is more open minded than I gave them credit for, perhaps their future isn't as grim as I initially believed when I sat down and thought about it.

I still don't see them rising above TNA anytime soon but the gap could narrow if more wrestlers continue to be disenchanted with the way TNA seems to be headed. That being said, if AJ ever jumps to RoH, I'll start paying way more attention to their product.[/quote]

I imagine that RoH will be behind TNA for at least the next two years. They are taking things at an extremely slow and methodical pace and are hoping not to make any missteps like their failed Vegas and San Francisco shows. Those shows really set them back.

On a seperate note, one of the key things I feel is lacking in RoH is the kind of legitimacy ECW got when verterans like Bam Bam Bigelow, Brian Pillman, Sid, and various other 'names' took time on the roster. Sure they have a couple of Matt Hardy matches and a guest appearance by Mick Foley, but they need someone who already made some kind of name somewhere else to come to RoH on more than a semi-permanent basis to drum up interest in the show.

Out of everyone, I'd probably love to see Vader in RoH.
 
[quote name='tangytangerine']For those wondering what SD's main event is, it's
Kane vs. Edge, non-title. Supposedly it's booked since Kane never faced Edge before he was injured
[/quote]:whistle2:s Neither of those guys currently hold a title, so I'm not sure how it could be anything but a non-title match. I think we all know who's doing the job there, though.
 
Very slightly under a decade ago, but your point's pretty valid. There's some fairly new (and bad) TNA news today - their buyrates have plummeted, and they now just have 1-2% of their Impact viewing audience paying for their PPVs.
 
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