The Official "We wish JaytheGamefan well in his future endeavors" Wrestling Thread

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ROH World Title main event results...

Eddie Edwards (champ) retains over Christopher Daniels. After the match Daniels refused to shake Edwards hand.

For the record I highly recommend if you missed the live airing to get in on the replay. Thankfully GoFightLive.tv still has the two shows for $20 package up so you can still "order it" then get the ondemand replay when its up (which could be by tomorrow morning even). Simply a great show which more then justifies the $20... and to think ROH is giving away the Saturday show with that $20 order.
 
Let's separate your list into two groups - guys who succeeded in WWE and those who failed. There may be some disagreement about who belongs where, but let's pick a starting point:

SUCCESSES:
Flair
Road Warriors
Jericho
Mysterio
Big Show
Benoit

Some of these people you can't deny. It's amazing that he managed to bury Dusty Rhodes the way he did, but it helped that the WWF didn't tour his old southern stomping grounds much in the early 1990's. At any rate, Ric Flair is Ric fucking Flair, and the Road Warriors are the Road Warriors. There's no rightful way you could bury them they were so over (RW so much so that there was a level of crowd pop wrestlers named after them).

Jericho and Benoit, OTOH, came to WWE to stick it to WCW. Not because of money or challenges or working Wrestlemania. But because they weren't happy in WCW. Remember that Benoit won the WCW Championship (in Cincinnati, OH!) and the next night was with the "Radicalz" on WWF Raw. Jericho's unhappiness with WCW (and Bischoff) was so well known that people knew about it publicly before he even left WCW. Those were Vince sticking it to WCW.

Think about the number of times that WWF/E loved to remind you that WCW fired Steve Austin by fax or fedex or somesuch, saying a guy in black tights could never be a draw. Steve Austin had a decent WCW career, and some damned fine matches, but nothing truly, truly legendary. I doubt they looked at him as a "WCW guy."

Mysterio, I dunno. WWE didn't immediately bury every ex-WCW talent. There's a reasonable exception.

FAILURES:
Luger
Goldberg
Booker
DDP
Steiner
Dusty

Luger was a successful main eventer? On what planet? He was pushed to the fucking moon by WWF, with a bus, and a bodyslam on an aircraft carrier, and stupid tights. Keep in mind he was pushed initially not as a wrestler, but as the centerpiece behind the WBF. He wasn't going to be a wrestler for Vince (maybe McMahon does know a bit about wrestling after all) until the WBF shit the bed in a way that makes the XFL look kinda sensible as an investment strategy. So he was pushed and pushed and pushed as a bodybuilder - Vince tried to take that momentum and carry it over into the wrestling ring. But for Luger, it never worked. Fans did not take him seriously at all as a main event guy.

Goldberg? Buried. They knew how to use him, but they refused to treat him as a monster. They stuck him with Goldust for a bit.

Booker? Buried. They knew how to use him, but they refused to treat him as a monster. They stuck him with Goldust. Wrestlemania X8 main event vs HHH was the culmination of WWF vs WCW (symbolically) as Booker T was treated like a bitch in a racially-tinged angle with HHH, and did the job in one of the most embarrassing "take your sweet ass time to come over here and pin the man following hitting the pedigree" WM finishes ever. I still cringe when I see that. Booker, like Dusty is known for his polka dots, is known in WWE for doing a shitty rendition of a breakdancing move.

The difference b/w Booker and Goldberg is that Booker hung around long enough. Much of the people who got over dealt with incredibly long periods of being hazed. I know you think WWE is justified in not pushing the Chuck Palumbos of the world, but compare what you think is wrong w/ Chuck to the guys they have crammed down our throats over the years - the Chris Masters, the other dudes in Nexus and Corre who aren't Wade Barrett. Anybody 6'2" and cut like a motherfucker gets the Vince McMahon is totally heterosexual boner of approval, and is pushed to the moon, whether fans like it or not. Ex-WCW talent is hazed, in a very public fashion. Even when they aren't in the company (e.g., DiBiase's servant being named "Virgil" as a slam on Dusty), that holds true.

DDP? There's no way you can hold him responsible for the shit hand he was dealt.

What you're doing is the pro wrestling equivalent of blaming the victim. DDP spent an entire summer jobbing to the Undertaker like he's Barry Horowitz, blows 10 grand on his teeth, and spends the next year saddled with a Simon Dean-esque motivational speaker gimmick - and you blame him for not getting over?

Jaysis. I mean, I understand wanting to not be wrong about something, but get fuckin' real, man.

WWE tells us who we want to like - even when it's people we actually do like.
 
Here's a rumor regarding the match order for Sunday:

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution lists the following as the match order for WrestleMania XXVII on Sunday:
* United States Champion Sheamus vs. Daniel Bryan
* Jerry Lawler vs. Michael Cole with special referee “Stone Cold” Steve Austin
* Rey Mysterio vs. Cody Rhodes
* Big Show, Kane, Santino Marella and Vladimir Kozlov vs. Ezekiel Jackson, Heath Slater, Justin Gabriel and Wade Barrett
* John Morrison, Trish Stratus and Snooki vs. Dolph Ziggler and Lay-Cool
* Randy Orton vs. CM Punk
* World Heavyweight Champion Edge vs. Alberto Del Rio
* The Undertaker vs. Triple H (No Holds Barred Match)
* WWE Champion The Miz vs. John Cena
Click to expand...
 
They're setting themselves up to fail massively by stacking the four huge matches together at the end like that. The crowd will be exhausted.
 
I just got back from the ROH PPV and, like Demo said, it was incredible. Probably the best show I've ever been to. I'm glad I'm not going to WM since it will practically be a guaranteed disappointment after this card. Every match was strong (the 4-way was OK but certainly not bad). Richards/Strong was definitely the best match I've ever seen live. The tag title match was hot throughout. Edwards is an excellent choice as champion and I hope he holds the title for a while. There was a Scotsman sitting in front of me who kept yelling "fuck TNA" all while wearing a TNA shirt. I was able to speak to Cary Silkin, Kevin Kelly and Jim Cornette and all 3 said there are plans to come back to Atlanta before the end of the year. With both shows selling out and the incredibly strong reaction from the crowd they know they have another strong market available to them. I'll definitely be going back the next time they're in town.

That's my stream of semi-consciousness. I'm going to bed now.
 
PWinsider is reporting that Ric Flair is in Atlanta and going to attend the HOF ceremony.

I'm surprised he's even willing to show his face in WWE this soon as they gave him one of the best sendoffs you can get and he just shitted all over it. Not to mention he's also working for the competition.
 
[quote name='BlueSwim']Saw this on NoDQ. WOW! Just...WOW! Unbelievable.

.......................................................................fuck[/QUOTE]

I gotta go back to this for a sec.

Ya know, it's funny how Vince McMahon is constantly wanting to stray away from the one venture he's actually good at doing business in. Look at some of his past escapades: The World Bodybuilding Federation, the XFL, WWE Films, politics, and probably a few more in there I missed. All went nowhere, and yet he's always trying to take the business that he actually turned into a global, multi-million dollar phenomenon and do everything he can to distance himself from it, even going so far as to treat the word "wrestling" as complete and total taboo. I just don't see the logic in that, but then, this is Vince McMahon, a guy who out the kibosh on a guy's gimmick because he didn't think anyone had seen the movie series that inspired it despite the fact that it grossed over a billion dollars at the box office.
 
[quote name='neocisco']I just got back from the ROH PPV and, like Demo said, it was incredible. Probably the best show I've ever been to. I'm glad I'm not going to WM since it will practically be a guaranteed disappointment after this card. Every match was strong (the 4-way was OK but certainly not bad). Richards/Strong was definitely the best match I've ever seen live. The tag title match was hot throughout. Edwards is an excellent choice as champion and I hope he holds the title for a while. There was a Scotsman sitting in front of me who kept yelling "fuck TNA" all while wearing a TNA shirt. I was able to speak to Cary Silkin, Kevin Kelly and Jim Cornette and all 3 said there are plans to come back to Atlanta before the end of the year. With both shows selling out and the incredibly strong reaction from the crowd they know they have another strong market available to them. I'll definitely be going back the next time they're in town.

That's my stream of semi-consciousness. I'm going to bed now.[/QUOTE]

Are you going tomorrow? Take a CAG sign with you!
 
[quote name='Purple Flames']I gotta go back to this for a sec.

Ya know, it's funny how Vince McMahon is constantly wanting to stray away from the one venture he's actually good at doing business in. Look at some of his past escapades:[/QUOTE]

What you've listed is good, but let's not forget his first miserably failed venture: Evel Knievel's Snake Mountain Jump. There was also ICO-PRO, his attempt to enter into the nutrition supplement business. Also another failure. I'm enjoying wracking my brain to think of the things he tried to do that didn't work. There have to be so many others.

Your comprehensive list really reinforces that he really is only good at hyping one thing - professional wrestling events. And there is *nothing* he has done historically that was a success outside of pro wrestling. Not just not a success - everything he's done was only financially possible because he was such a success as a wrestling promoter, and every event listed was an abysmal failure financially.

Global Media Whatsamathing, my ass. He has created an incredibly successful global professional wrestling promotion, and he's surrounded by (and perpetuates) a corporate entity that tries to position themselves as anything but that.

Michael Jordan is, similarly, not a "national television commodity" because he had so many endorsement deals, video games (well, Jordan vs Bird and Space Jam - wasn't there also some quasi-fighting game on the SNES, Windy City somethingorother? ;)), shoes, and a failed baseball career. He's a legendary basketball player. And he'll always be known as that.

However, think of the one person outside of wrestling that has been a semi-fixture in WWF/WWE historically: Donald Trump. The WM23 buildup was because he thinks they are equals - but what *is* Trump, exactly? A casino developer? A real-estate guy? Investment guru :)rofl:)? A tv personality? Presidential candidate :)rofl:)? Trump's fortunes come from a variety of sources that he was successful in, and some failures as well. I think this is how McMahon sees himself - a complex, multifaceted businessman whose successes lie in multiple areas. If we use profitability and longevity as measures of success, McMahon is nothing more than a professional wrestling promoter. If he sees success as simply being positioned to endeavor in multiple areas, that is by definition success, perhaps, to him. Just like he would never admit that Invasion was a magnificent failure as an angle, or that he probably doesn't think he sabotaged anybody's careers in his own mind (to tie this back to yesterday's conversation), he surely has some strategies to resolve the cognitive dissonance that everything he has done outside of wrestling was a failure, but he sees himself as a successful multimedia executive.

He is the "executive producer" on a number of WWE films as well - a title typically only reserved for the person(s) who bankroll filmmaking but do nothing substantive. If he sees himself as a filmmaker as well because of this, then we know how he's making sense of his own world. Yow.
 
He's always acted like some savvy businessman, but if you take wrestling out of the equation, Vince has nothing. If he hadn't gone into wrestling I don't know what he'd be doing, concert promotions maybe?
 
[quote name='Clak']He's always acted like some savvy businessman, but if you take wrestling out of the equation, Vince has nothing. If he hadn't gone into wrestling I don't know what he'd be doing, concert promotions maybe?[/QUOTE]

Nah, more like "Would you like fries with that?"
 
I had dinner with Jerry Seltzer a few months back, who was a successful promoter for decades. Listening to him talk gave me significant insight into the mind of a promoter. They're always thinking bigger and better than you are. Sometimes, you think their ideas are insane. But the insanity means a willingness to take those risks to achieve success that more conservative (not political, but in terms of risk-taking) people would never go near. Sometimes those ideas hit paydirt, like Vince and the WWE, or like Seltzer and Roller Derby (not to mention a little thing called Ticketmaster).

The way promoter's minds work, no matter what you have, you try to put it over like it's the second coming of Jesus. Market it, promote it - don't acknowledge any doubts. The biggest name on your card is a middle-aged and cokedbeat-up Sabu? Promote him as the "hardcore legend." Wrestling moves aren't the only things that aren't sold in the business - promoters don't acknowledge weakness. WWE would be insane to say "WrestleMania is only 4 days away, but it's okay if you don't want to order it. The card is shaping up to make this a somewhat less than legendary night in the history of sports entertainment!" You know you have a stinker? Don't tell anyone.

Sometimes they don't succeed. Perhaps the success is simply in part the willingness to take the risk - imagine the regret people like that would feel if they didn't try to do something new, something unique, something crazy. Sure, the WBF failed, and XFL failed, and ICO-PRO failed. But what if they had not been tried? What if WrestleMania was not attempted? I think that's how people like Vince define success - the attempt, and remaining alive (or financially above water) to tell the tale. For as big as McMahon's ego is, I think we would all agree that he'd rather be penniless having failed at everything he tried to do than a billionaire that didn't take that next giant risk.

(of course, being a publicly traded company mitigates that risk substantially now, but I'm talking more historically.)
 
Vince is a great mind in terms of promotion and luckily had the wrestling background. Eric Bischoff has a similar mind but hasn't the foggiest freaking clue about wrestling and it shows. He's also heavy into excess.
 
I don't know about that last line, Vince certainly enjoys his wealth. At least at this point in his life I think he could probably retire and be happy.
 
I can't help but share this...

fakejr2.jpg

And on that note... ROH Takes Center Stage Show 2 live results for the first half of the show.

Last updated 1:05 PM CST.

Kings Of Wrestling def. O'Rilley & Cole.

Colt Cabana def. Dave Taylor. Yes.... I just said Dave Taylor.

Champa guy def. Homicide.

Christopher Daniels retains the TV Title against Michael Elgin.

Show is at intermission. I'll start another post when the second half starts.
 
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Cleaning out an old drawer that I've neglected for .. A while.. And I found an old XFL brochure that I kept. It has season ticket info for the Memphis Maniax.
 
ROH second half results. Updated at 3:24 PM CST - show is finished.

Jim Cornette and Davey Richards have a promo in the ring. Cornette offers Richards an ROH World Title shot but Richards turns it down. Eddie Edwards (World Champ and Richards tag partner) comes out and tells him when they have wrestled Edwards has won. But tonight is about tag team wrestling and they are facing the newly crowned tag champs Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team.

Daizee Haze & Tomoka Nakagawa retain the SHIMMER Tag Titles over Hiroyo Matsumoto & Ayumi Kurihara.

Briscoes defeat All Night Express. Very bloody match.

El Generico defeats Roderick Strong. Michael Elgin came out to help Strong but ended up costing Strong the match. Afterwards Elgin and Strong beat down El Generico until Colt Cabana came out to help. Cabana and Generico got the upper hand for a moment but then Elgin and Strong regained control of things. Christopher Daniels then ran in looking to help Cabana and Generico but instead shocked everyone by striking Cabana which in turn has turned Daniels full fledge heel. House Of Truth then finished beating down Generico and Cabana.

Wrestling's Greatest Tag Team defeats the American Wolves in the main event. Great match. After the two teams shook hands a break up of the American Wolves was teased but didn't happen as the show came to a close.
 
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My buddy was going to buy it for us to watch, but I woke up with pink eye the other day and he doesn't want me to come over and get him sick, so I'll be watching elsewhere.
 
I'm gonna buy it, only because I get the ppvs half off. Would never pay $55 for this thing, unless I was splitting it with some people. A co worker of mine works on the customer service side for our work and said tons of people are ordering the PPV. More than normal.
 
[quote name='pimpster4183']I'm gonna buy it, only because I get the ppvs half off. Would never pay $55 for this thing, unless I was splitting it with some people. A co worker of mine works on the customer service side for our work and said tons of people are ordering the PPV. More than normal.[/QUOTE]

I saw that one of the last few WWE PPVs (I don't remember which one) was $55. That is unbelievable. I remember as a kid trying to come up with $15 so a friend and I could split it. I mean, my parents would buy one here and there for us but they sure as hell weren't buying them monthly at $30 each. Didn't Mania cost $5 more back then as well? I can't even imagine being a kid now and having to get $55 together. PER PPV.

Then again when I was a kid the internet wasn't around to watch them either.

EDIT: Rock just told me to order them in HD it's even more expensive. WTF.
 
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You guys forgot the WWF/E New York restaurant on Vince's list of failures.:razz:

Those behind the scenes videos of HBK n the Kliq reunion(sans Scott Hall) and the Flair appearance were pretty cool though.
 
[quote name='Trakan']EDIT: Rock just told me to order them in HD it's even more expensive. WTF.[/QUOTE]

Yup, it's $70 for the HD version. And they wonder why their buyrates are down. :roll:
 
I am going to Buffalo Wild Wings to watch Wrestlemania. I haven't watched WWE in over 5 years but I used to be a HUGE wrestling fan. I am kind of scared to see what has become of the product.
 
[quote name='Superstar']I am going to Buffalo Wild Wings to watch Wrestlemania. I haven't watched WWE in over 5 years but I used to be a HUGE wrestling fan. I am kind of scared to see what has become of the product.[/QUOTE]
Tivo Monday Night Raw or Smackdown sometime or even TNA and count the MINUTES of wrestling you see.:whistle2:#
 
[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']Tivo Monday Night Raw or Smackdown sometime or even TNA and count the MINUTES of wrestling you see.:whistle2:#[/QUOTE]

I never really liked TNA. I remember I attended Wrestlemania 20 and about a year or so after that I lost interest.
 
Forgive my ignorance on wrestling in the past 5+ years but how the hell did Miz become a main event wrestler?
 
[quote name='TheRock88']Yup, it's $70 for the HD version. And they wonder why their buyrates are down. :roll:[/QUOTE]

That's out of this fucking world, man. There isn't a wrestling card on this planet I'd pay $70 for.

EDIT: Perspective: That's $10 more than I spent on a front row seat (combined w/ special DVD and meet and greet) for the NJPW show in May.
 
More perspective: That's double what I paid for my ROH ticket for Friday night. Absolutely no comparison as far as quality is concerned.
 
[quote name='Superstar']Forgive my ignorance on wrestling in the past 5+ years but how the hell did Miz become a main event wrestler?[/QUOTE]

I was wondering the same thing as I got back into wrestling but dude has really upped his game over the last few year. Both his mic skills and in-ring ability have improved dramatically since his days on Tough Enough.
 
[quote name='Superstar']Forgive my ignorance on wrestling in the past 5+ years but how the hell did Miz become a main event wrestler?[/QUOTE]After getting fired after losing three straight matches to John Cena, Miz got rehired by winning a "contract on a pole" match(IIRC) while wearing a mask and using a fake name. The Miz went on a steady climb upward that led to him winning the U.S. Championship a couple of times(losing it once to Bret "The Hitman" Hart). Then he won the Raw Money In The Bank match at the 2010 MITB PPV last year. Several months later, the Nexus ambushed then-WWE Champion Randy Orton before a title match against Wade Barrett on Raw, putting Orton at a major disadvantage. Orton managed to defeat Wade Barrett with a (legitimately) injured knee. Just as he was recuperating in one of the corners after the match, "AWESOME!" blared over the speakers and out came the Miz to cash in the MITB(for real, this time). Miz countered the RKO into the Skull-Crushing Finale and got the 1-2-3. Since then, Miz has been a "coward champion" and had a feud with Jerry "The King" Lawler.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LwUID2gbKg
 
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[quote name='Superstar']I never really liked TNA. I remember I attended Wrestlemania 20 and about a year or so after that I lost interest.[/QUOTE]
I lost interest after the 2001 'Invasion' when we went from two major companies and a third that was growing(but I think was in the same financial shape as TNA is now I believe) to one big mega corporation that controlled them all but tried to pretend they were still seperate entities.:roll:

Then we have the ECW 'rebirth', which kinda made me throw up in my mouth a lil, since you could tell those ECW shows on tv were in ginormous arenas and not the lil venues that the promotion was known for.

I truly wanted to see Vince succeed and bring all three companies under the same umbrella but run them completely seperate, but I knew in my heart that even with all of his money he couldn't afford to keep three rosters going.

But the stupid shit they came up with leading up to the invasion PPV was just..... That's what finally killed my waning fandom completely.
 
The WM27 Blu Ray is on Amazon for preorder for $23.99.. Went ahead and locked in my order. Hopefully it includes the HoF disc as well. I can't believe it's $70 to order it on PPV!
 
Thanks for the WM 27 BD info - I pre-ordered my copy as well since I doubt it'll be any lower. Amazon's $21 price for the '11 Chamber PPV was incredible since the show was awesome AND the set included the Rock's on-air return along with a DVD version of the show as well.


ECW wasn't growing - it was near-death for a long time and towards the end, guys were having checks bounce. The only things that really allowed it to love as long as did were the TNN deal, which wasn't the best thing in the world, but at least gave them national distribution and set up deals for them to get a magazine, games, and DVDs, and WCW's six-figure payoff to them for breaching the deal with Mike Awesome. TNA's ratings are about the same as ECW's, but their buyrates are lower, and while they may pay far too many people basically nothing, I haven't heard anything about them bouncing checks or basically forcing people to work for free.
 
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